Family Of Man In Skytrain Scuffle Threatened

[katana]

I have to agree with this - try and barge your way through protesting staff in the 'first world', and you will summarily restrained, arrested, charged, convicted, fined, and banned from Public transport for a period, just for good measure.

But I do note getting beaten around the head with a metal detector is not on the list of things which would happen to you

Lots of conflicting statements but the witness says he was not hit with a scanner but it was a guard's bracelet that caused the cut above his eye while he boxed the Irish guy (before the video).

The Irish guy says the other injury to his head came from a guard's nightstick right outside the train on the platform (after the video) he was still instant on boarding.

The director of the BTS, Anat Aphaphirom, in his statement on the incident released on 22/03/12 after he viewed the CCTV footage, makes mention of one of the security guards hitting Behan with a metal detector.

[Nisa]

I have to agree with this - try and barge your way through protesting staff in the 'first world', and you will summarily restrained, arrested, charged, convicted, fined, and banned from Public transport for a period, just for good measure.

But I do note getting beaten around the head with a metal detector is not on the list of things which would happen to you

Lots of conflicting statements but the witness says he was not hit with a scanner but it was a guard's bracelet that caused the cut above his eye while he boxed the Irish guy (before the video).

The Irish guy says the other injury to his head came from a guard's nightstick right outside the train on the platform (after the video) he was still instant on boarding.

The director of the BTS, Anat Aphaphirom, in his statement on the incident released on 22/03/12 after he viewed the CCTV footage, makes mention of one of the security guards hitting Behan with a metal detector.

I never saw that statement from him but there is one below that is written in a way to make you believe he said the guy was hit was a scanner but it actually doesn't say "he" said this if you read it carefully.

There was a news article with quotes from him on the same day you mention but he doesn't say that in this story. See: http://www.thaivisa....-investigation/

Arnat claimed the foreigner then started to get aggressive, kicking at trash cans, resulting in security guards being called in to subdue him.

The video clip showed the foreigner and BTS officials having a heated argument at the front of the ticket collection machine before he was clubbed in the head by the guards'

baton

.

A news article the next day says this: See: http://www.thaivisa....h-irish-passeng

According to Anat, Behan argued heatedly with the security guards, pushing one in the chest and kicking the chief of the station. In self-defence, a security guard hit the passenger with a

scanner

.

The witness that Drummond says "saw the incident from beginning to end" had this to say (See: http://www.andrew-dr...her.php?sid=529)

“What I saw was one of the guys from the information counter who punched him with his

bracelet

. Because of that the man’s left eye brow was cut deeply and bleeding badly too.

The only references I have seen that a metal detector was used has been by forum posters (stated as fact but no source) but correct me if I am wrong.

All the above are describing the initial part of incident. As I said, lots of conflicting reports. Whose claims and/or what source do you discount or believe?

Edited April 11, 2012 by Nisa

[katana]

...A news article the next day says this: See: http://www.thaivisa....h-irish-passeng

According to Anat, Behan argued heatedly with the security guards, pushing one in the chest and kicking the chief of the station. In self-defence, a security guard hit the passenger with a

scanner

.

...The only references I have seen that a metal detector was used has been by forum posters (stated as fact but no source) but correct me if I am wrong...

I'm not sure what you mean. A scanner in this context is a metal detector so you're quoting a link from the Nation that a scanner/metal detector was used.

Anat's statement in Matichon after he viewed the CCTV footage also mentions one of the security guards hitting Behan with a metal detector (and it uses the Thai word for metal detector).

http://www.matichon....pid=00&catid=00

Edited April 11, 2012 by katana

[metisdead]

A circular argumentative post has been removed:

that at no point does it become okay to force your way onto the plane

This topic is not about airplanes or airports.

[Nisa]

...A news article the next day says this: See: http://www.thaivisa....h-irish-passeng

According to Anat, Behan argued heatedly with the security guards, pushing one in the chest and kicking the chief of the station. In self-defence, a security guard hit the passenger with a

scanner

.

...The only references I have seen that a metal detector was used has been by forum posters (stated as fact but no source) but correct me if I am wrong...

I'm not sure what you mean. A scanner in this context is a metal detector so you're quoting a link from the Nation that a scanner/metal detector was used.

Anat's statement in Matichon after he viewed the CCTV footage also mentions one of the security guards hitting Behan with a metal detector (and it uses the Thai word for metal detector).

http://www.matichon....pid=00&catid=00

You are right, I was not grasping what they meant by a scanner (security wand) but was thinking more of a walkie talkie. But this still leaves 3-different accounts.

A speculation but a "scanner" of this type could be confused with a club on a video or even by a witness but it doesn't explain the supposed eyewitness statements who says it was a bracelet that hit his head while boxing that caused the injury we see on the video.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Nisa

[Ulysses G.]

but resort to violence, physical and verbal abuse and you should accept the consequences.

In full agreement with this sentiment and it appears the BTS company agree's as well....they fired the security guard involved in this altercation

From what I read, they just transfered him to a different location.

[sparebox2]

but resort to violence, physical and verbal abuse and you should accept the consequences.

In full agreement with this sentiment and it appears the BTS company agree's as well....they fired the security guard involved in this altercation

From what I read, they just transfered him to a different location.

And the different location is HOME. He is lucky he was not transferred to jail.

Such vicious and violent people don't even deserve compensation.

Edited April 12, 2012 by sparebox2

[Payboy]

but resort to violence, physical and verbal abuse and you should accept the consequences.

In full agreement with this sentiment and it appears the BTS company agree's as well....they fired the security guard involved in this altercation

From what I read, they just transfered him to a different location.

What would be an inactive post for a security guard? Just wondering.

[luckyluke]

What would be an inactive post for a security guard? Just wondering

No any control, allowing the travellers do and carry what they want.

[balo]

I travel with the BTS almost daily .

If I saw someone with lots of balloons inside the train I would be worried , most of the day the trains are packed with passengers , it would cause a panic if they exploded.

I have never seen any passenger with balloons yet so this is something that the security guards know about and they will stop anyone trying to bring something that might be flammable or dangerous .

The Irish guy overreacted and he should have stayed out of trouble like the rest of us normal thinking expats.

.

[Curt1591]

Lets be honest, all parties acted rather poorly, thats ok for us because we see the result and now we comment..

But we were not there, we cannot say how we would react ..we hope maybe we would react different..but we are not Judge and Jury

Still looking for that sign. I have some leads. I have to head downtown next week. I'll check it out then.

------

It is obvious that none of us are privy to the initial encounter. I believe that when Anat made his statement, even he may not have seen the CCTV and was basing his statement on the YouTube video, which he describes well. If the CCTV footage contradicts that statement, we can be sure that the CCTV will never be made public.

If the CCTV footage showed an unprovoked attack on Behan, it would explain why he was acting a bit over the top. It may not make it right, but it could give some perspective.

Also, people can be detained or restrained without violence. This is especially important in crowds.

[metisdead]

A reply to a post in which the reply was an emoticon of being bored has been removed. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, don't make trollish replies with simple emoticons.

A reply was removed as well.

[dantilley]

From what I read, they just transfered him to a different location.

That's often face-saving speak for 'fired'.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As best as I understand it, the security at BTS stations is provided by a contract company, not BTS employees themselves.

So in that situation, BTS could have asked or directed that any particular guard not be assigned to their stations. But it would be up to the contract security company to make any decisions about employment status.

Separately, from what I see when traveling on BTS, the guards down at the ticket gates tend to carry the (I presume metal) detectors or scanners, while the guards up on the train platforms seem to carry the batons or whatever you want to call them.

[Nisa]

Also, people can be detained or restrained without violence. This is especially important in crowds.

Not all people ... this is reason why violence and weapon use is permitted in some cases. People can also follow simply rules and directions but it doesn't mean all do.

[Nisa]

What would be an inactive post for a security guard? Just wondering.

99.9% of the time it would probably have be the post he held.

[Curt1591]

Also, people can be detained or restrained without violence. This is especially important in crowds.

Not all people ... this is reason why violence and weapon use is permitted in some cases. People can also follow simply rules and directions but it doesn't mean all do.

I don't think "violence and weapons" is a chapter in any security handbooks.

"Tactics" may be used, but they shouldn't involve violence in a crowded environment. Depending on the crowd, things can go terribly wrong. You think a bursting balloon can cause all hell to break loose?!

Using a scanner wand, as a "weapon", would be like using a wooden knife; there is no mass to them. The entire unit weighs about a pound. The fact that it was used shows a total lack of knowledge of what was needed. Smacking a person with such an implement will do little more than piss him off! It appears that was accomplished.

[Nisa]

Also, people can be detained or restrained without violence. This is especially important in crowds.

Not all people ... this is reason why violence and weapon use is permitted in some cases. People can also follow simply rules and directions but it doesn't mean all do.

I don't think "violence and weapons" is a chapter in any security handbooks.

"Tactics" may be used, but they shouldn't involve violence in a crowded environment. Depending on the crowd, things can go terribly wrong. You think a bursting balloon can cause all hell to break loose?!

Using a scanner wand, as a "weapon", would be like using a wooden knife; there is no mass to them. The entire unit weighs about a pound. The fact that it was used shows a total lack of knowledge of what was needed. Smacking a person with such an implement will do little more than piss him off! It appears that was accomplished.

I think we are simply viewing the word "violence" differently. The act of legally using a club, taser, physical restraint against another is all defined as violent as in any techniques that legally causes pain to attempt to force compliance.

I also believe every security who carries any device that can be used as a weapon from bodily force, mace, club to gun should in fact be trained how to use force (violent) and again by my definition such use would be a violent act but if done under the proper procedures and circumstances would be legally justified force or violence. Same training shou

[Thaddeus]

I also believe every security who carries any device that can be used as a weapon from bodily force, mace, club to gun should in fact be trained how to use force (violent) and again by my definition such use would be a violent act but if done under the proper procedures and circumstances would be legally justified force or violence. Same training shou

(I assume your post was cut short by the forum downtime)

And of course they have received that level of training here or have they only been taught to blow a whistle.

[flyingsporran]

I travel with the BTS almost daily .

If I saw someone with lots of balloons inside the train I would be worried , most of the day the trains are packed with passengers , it would cause a panic if they exploded.

I have never seen any passenger with balloons yet so this is something that the security guards know about and they will stop anyone trying to bring something that might be flammable or dangerous .

The Irish guy overreacted and he should have stayed out of trouble like the rest of us normal thinking expats.

.

I would not be worried. ps Yes. Thaddeus he was not doubt still punching the keys as it happened, probably still is now! Edited April 13, 2012 by flyingsporran

[flyingsporran]

Also, people can be detained or restrained without violence. This is especially important in crowds.

Not all people ... this is reason why violence and weapon use is permitted in some cases. People can also follow simply rules and directions but it doesn't mean all do.

I don't think "violence and weapons" is a chapter in any security handbooks.

"Tactics" may be used, but they shouldn't involve violence in a crowded environment. Depending on the crowd, things can go terribly wrong. You think a bursting balloon can cause all hell to break loose?!

Using a scanner wand, as a "weapon", would be like using a wooden knife; there is no mass to them. The entire unit weighs about a pound. The fact that it was used shows a total lack of knowledge of what was needed. Smacking a person with such an implement will do little more than piss him off! It appears that was accomplished.

I think we are simply viewing the word "violence" differently. The act of legally using a club, taser, physical restraint against another is all defined as violent as in any techniques that legally causes pain to attempt to force compliance.

I also believe every security who carries any device that can be used as a weapon from bodily force, mace, club to gun should in fact be trained how to use force (violent) and again by my definition such use would be a violent act but if done under the proper procedures and circumstances would be legally justified force or violence. Same training shou."

Group 4 - BTS Training Manual

1. Action: Farang raise voice - Reaction: Push him in chest and speak loudly in Phasa Isaan/ Huay Kwang

2.Action: Farang kick dustbin use F word - Reaction: Call four assistants - administer quick beating. Use bracelet, knuckly duster, walkie talkie, scanner - no matter

3. In case of multiple balloons. Shout 'Hey You' and then loudly in Thai/Issan telling the passenger 'None of that'. Action:In case of balloon - allow farang one balloon and then follow Step 4..

4. Action (supplementary/ not optional): Wait in group until farang attempt to board train, call another four more assistants for safety. As farang board train clutching balloon and child administer pack attack make whooping noises, any weapon allowable.

5. Issue a statement of self defence and offer flowers to bereaved.

6. Get the ticket office clerk with the American husband to complain to Thai visa about farang manners.

Edited April 13, 2012 by craigt3365
fixed quotes

[carra]

I also believe every security who carries any device that can be used as a weapon from bodily force, mace, club to gun should in fact be trained how to use force (violent) and again by my definition such use would be a violent act but if done under the proper procedures and circumstances would be legally justified force or violence. Same training shou

(I assume your post was cut short by the forum downtime)

And of course they have received that level of training here or have they only been taught to blow a whistle.

It seems Nisa is now an 'unwelcome member' so I am guessing he is suspended, people can now have a few weeks without the forum expert on everything from security measures to sink holes

[Nisa]

I also believe every security who carries any device that can be used as a weapon from bodily force, mace, club to gun should in fact be trained how to use force (violent) and again by my definition such use would be a violent act but if done under the proper procedures and circumstances would be legally justified force or violence. Same training shou

(I assume your post was cut short by the forum downtime)

And of course they have received that level of training here or have they only been taught to blow a whistle.

It seems Nisa is now an 'unwelcome member' so I am guessing he is suspended, people can now have a few weeks without the forum expert on everything from security measures to sink holes

[luckyluke]

There are many posts mentioning how wrong the security guard(s) handled this case.

Does anybody have an idea what should be the proper way of doing, for a security guard, when a BTS customer refused doing what a security guard is asking him to do or not to do and what if the customer is starting to act irresponsibly.

So, in clear, what the security guard should do, not what he should not do.

Edited April 14, 2012 by luckyluke

[EyesWideOpen]

There are many posts mentioning how wrong the security guard(s) handled this case.

Does anybody have an idea what should be the proper way of doing, for a security guard, when a BTS customer refused doing what a security guard is asking him to do or not to do and what if the customer is starting to act irresponsibly.

So, in clear, what the security guard should do, not what he should not do.

Probably should be a bit like a bouncer in a bar. If you attempt to enter a bar that has a dress code, and you are not properly dressed, their job is to restrain you from entering the premises. To that end there will be three large people blocking you from entering , and asking you politely to leave. I do not believe in general they are tasked with beating the crap out of you if you do not comply with their request. Should they choose to do so, the club would then be facing a lawsuit, and the bouncers would be facing assault charges. Ok, back to you Nisa.... :-)

[luckyluke]

^

The question remain the same : what should the bouncers do, if the customer not comply with their request., not what they should not do.

[Curt1591]

First, we would discuss the situation with the person in question. We would try to become "friends". Unfortunately, here in Bangkok, there is often a language / culture barrier. But, it's amazing how often "reason" will work. In this case, I would have suggested that the balloons be deflated.

If it appeared that this tactic was going nowhere, and it reached a point where we didn't think we couldn't deter the individual, one-on-one, we would have already assembled what we felt would be required to do so. If the BTS security is supposed to detain/subdue people, they should have a procedure to do so. It really doesn't appear that they do.

In the bar scenario, if the subject went nuts, he would have the entire staff pinning him to the floor almost immediately. Then, he would be removed from the premises and help for the police.

In the BTS situation, Behan apparently proceeded through 4 encounters. If they needed to restrain/detain him, it shouldn't have gone beyond one. After the first encounter, I think everyone was taking it personally.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Curt1591

[Nisa]

First, we would discuss the situation with the person in question. We would try to become "friends". Unfortunately, here in Bangkok, there is often a language / culture barrier. But, it's amazing how often "reason" will work. In this case, I would have suggested that the balloons be deflated.

If it appeared that this tactic was going nowhere, and it reached a point where we didn't think we couldn't deter the individual, one-on-one, we would have already assembled what we felt would be required to do so. If the BTS security is supposed to detain/subdue people, they should have a procedure to do so. It really doesn't appear that they do.

In the bar scenario, if the subject went nuts, he would have the entire staff pinning him to the floor almost immediately. Then, he would be removed from the premises and help for the police.

In the BTS situation, Behan apparently proceeded through 4 encounters. If they needed to restrain/detain him, it shouldn't have gone beyond one. After the first encounter, I think everyone was taking it personally.

With these kinds of incidents happening, it will almost surely ensure that security guards in Thailand will have to move more towards western ways and become better trained in enforcement and become more proactive in enforcing rules/laws while moving away from the roles most of them serve now as being greeters, parking assistance, door openers and bag carriers.

I imagine it won't be long until Police (along w/security) become more rigid and get more high tech too and all get issued tasers, instead of only a select few in Bangkok Police Officers, to have permission to use on any person not complying with orders, instead of only in extreme circumstances like a hostage situation.

IMO it is kind of a shame but with the continued increase of westerners and western ways, it seems inevitable.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Nisa

[Curt1591]

With the millions the "Westerners" that have passed the BTS gates, this is the first encounter like this. I guess, as far as the violent BTS incidents are concerned, it's "nasty Westerners 1; sweet Thais 0. But, it's early!

Quit making it an "us against them" thing. I assume you read local Thai news. Thais are no strangers to going bezerk.

This was a situation that was handled poorly by all parties. Plus, whatever we may "believe", we still don't know who snapped first. If, indeed, it was the guards, maybe the nasty Westerners need to be the ones better prepared!

[flyingsporran]

First, we would discuss the situation with the person in question. We would try to become "friends". Unfortunately, here in Bangkok, there is often a language / culture barrier. But, it's amazing how often "reason" will work. In this case, I would have suggested that the balloons be deflated.

If it appeared that this tactic was going nowhere, and it reached a point where we didn't think we couldn't deter the individual, one-on-one, we would have already assembled what we felt would be required to do so. If the BTS security is supposed to detain/subdue people, they should have a procedure to do so. It really doesn't appear that they do.

In the bar scenario, if the subject went nuts, he would have the entire staff pinning him to the floor almost immediately. Then, he would be removed from the premises and help for the police.

In the BTS situation, Behan apparently proceeded through 4 encounters. If they needed to restrain/detain him, it shouldn't have gone beyond one. After the first encounter, I think everyone was taking it personally.

You betcha! However in that sort of situation how does one deflate a kids balloon....with a cigarette end....oh whoops. I can't do it. My kids balloons die a normal death, either popped with something, or grow saggy and expire, like we all will. Trying to untie a knot is a skilled art, higher skill than a BTS security guard.

Edited April 14, 2012 by flyingsporran