Australian Charity Head Accused Of Faking The Rescue Of Thai Hill Tribe Children Resigns

[kerryk]

Many posters in this thread remind me of an old quote...It's been used before and I don't know who first said it...

"To thrive, evil needs nothing more than for good men to do nothing"

I have seen well intentioned reports created by academics in NGO's and GO's, quoting others quotes and each other endlessly and citing dubious facts based on limited and poor research. Having in depth experience at the pointy end of this work I can say I have read very few reports that accurately reflect the situation at hand on the ground. Very few NGO's dare to tread where organizations such as The Grey Man and others also involved in this work dare to go. These are the NGO's who are really in touch with the extent of the problem and deal with the victims and the traffickers on a daily basis.

So, for those relying on single line quotes from yet another Academic NGO report to base their incredibly narrow knowledge of the massive extent of human trafficking in Thailand and most of South East and South Asia I say this...

Go do some real research...Get out on the ground and have a look around before you shoot off at the mouth and prove yourself to be a completely clueless individual.

I would agree with that.  Tell us about Grey man.  Does it compare to Empower Foundation?  Empower Foundation, "More than 50,000 sex workers have been a formal part of Empower over the last 27 years.Empower members include sex workers from Thailand and migrant sex-workers mainly from Mekong countries such as Laos, Burma1, China, and Cambodia. Empower currently has centers based in 11 provinces in Thailand reaching over 20,000 sex workers regularly.Despite these efforts our industry is stillover represented in anti-trafficking raids and misrepresented as inherently violent, exploitative and an equivalent to human trafficking. People still do not know about or understand how current anti-trafficking practices are not only abusing the rights of individuals, but are a huge barrier to our efforts to further reduce exploitation in their industry.

[DP25]

Unfortunately not a surprise, a lot of NGOs in Thailand seem dodgy and self serving, exploiting both Thailand and well intentioned people back home who don't really know what it is going on. Most of these people shouldn't even be in Thailand but in Laos or Cambodia to begin with, but life there is rough and not many farang want to live there when they could have a cushy life in Thailand.

[softgeorge]

Sex trafficing is both a global problem, and increasing. Have you already forgotten the recent case in Thailand of the Malaysian girl and her Burmese companions. The 6 people convicted in the UK last week? I will be kind and call you unaware.

Agree it is a global problem and more prevalent in developing countries. Those that think it is phony or a myth need to take the blinkers off and come out of thier cacoon and actually take notice of what is happening around them.

I think the most recent and credible survey on sex trafficking in Thailand was done by the Empower foundation 2012. "The impact of anti trafficking policy and practice on Sex Worker's Human Rights inThailand."The survey said as it relates to Grey Man, "However as our research shows, there remain strong incentives within the anti-trafficking movement to target the Thai sex industry using the old raid and rescue approach, which results inhuman rights abuses, legal violations and incompetent practice, all of which are still prominent in Not For Sale Campaign and Global Exchange 2012 A, 2012 article: The Grey Man Will Blow Critics Out Of The Water."To restate in terms everyone can understand the Empower Foundation in 2012 found that Grey man was using " the old raid and rescue approach, which results in human rights abuses, legal violations and incompetent practice."

The Grey man doesn't do raids, if a raid is to be conducted it is done by the police who analysis the information provided by those on the ground. It is the police who make the decision and do the planning not the greyman as they have no authority.

[kerryk]

So how many quotes does someone need before they suddenly become credible ? Please...Get a life...

I would suggest if you know about any instances of current sex slave trafficking that you write Andrew Drummond and give him the specifics. I think he could direct you who to report it to.

But if you don’t have any current sex slave trafficking information why don’t you stop writing like you do. That is what got Grey man in trouble. Making up stuff about sex trafficking that may have happened years ago but was false today.

If I am wrong and you personally do know about current sex slave trafficking like you claim, how do you sleep at night not trying to stop it?

Also...

I don't think there are sex slaves in Thailand who have been trafficked

Taken in context, you are stating and strongly implying that no one could possibly have seen Human Trafficking in the sex trade, certainly not in the last few years. You are also suggesting the utterly ridiculous...Report it to Andrew Drummond...The self styled investigative journalist...What is he going to do ?

If Andrew was any kind of a respectable journalist, he would report all the facts, not just those that support his personal hypothesis.

With regards to the point of the thread, I am on topic as much as you or anyone else is..

"I suppose people could make a connection between those kids and brothels but it was not our intention. I will discuss it with our people, but I think people realise a site like ours will have photos of kids on it."  (Now if that is not the biggest load of horse pucky I don't know what is.)I have to tell you if you take pictures of my children and put them up on a sex slave trafficking web site and I am going to be upset

Looking at The Grey Man website, I see that that they also conduct prevention work and it seems quite appropriate that there will be images of children, adults, girls, boys, men, women, cars, motorbikes, pick up trucks, houses, farm implements etc...

No one else makes the link and decides that the farm implements are trafficked ? How do you make that link ? I certainly don't unless the tag line on the image specifically says 'Image of trafficked farm implements'...

I'd suggest you take a simple high school course in media studies and critical thinking.

Grey Man said the kids in the photo had been trafficked and they had not been trafficked. That's what started the whole thing.

[cry]

Many posters in this thread remind me of an old quote...It's been used before and I don't know who first said it...

"To thrive, evil needs nothing more than for good men to do nothing"

I have seen well intentioned reports created by academics in NGO's and GO's, quoting others quotes and each other endlessly and citing dubious facts based on limited and poor research. Having in depth experience at the pointy end of this work I can say I have read very few reports that accurately reflect the situation at hand on the ground. Very few NGO's dare to tread where organizations such as The Grey Man and others also involved in this work dare to go. These are the NGO's who are really in touch with the extent of the problem and deal with the victims and the traffickers on a daily basis.

So, for those relying on single line quotes from yet another Academic NGO report to base their incredibly narrow knowledge of the massive extent of human trafficking in Thailand and most of South East and South Asia I say this...

Go do some real research...Get out on the ground and have a look around before you shoot off at the mouth and prove yourself to be a completely clueless individual.

I would agree with that. Tell us about Grey man. Does it compare to Empower Foundation? Empower Foundation, "More than 50,000 sex workers have been a formal part of Empower over the last 27 years.Empower members include sex workers from Thailand and migrant sex-workers mainly from Mekong countries such as Laos, Burma1, China, and Cambodia. Empower currently has centers based in 11 provinces in Thailand reaching over 20,000 sex workers regularly.Despite these efforts our industry is stillover represented in anti-trafficking raids and misrepresented as inherently violent, exploitative and an equivalent to human trafficking. People still do not know about or understand how current anti-trafficking practices are not only abusing the rights of individuals, but are a huge barrier to our efforts to further reduce exploitation in their industry.

So you represent Empower ?

[kerryk]

Sex trafficing is both a global problem, and increasing. Have you already forgotten the recent case in Thailand of the Malaysian girl and her Burmese companions. The 6 people convicted in the UK last week? I will be kind and call you unaware.

Agree it is a global problem and more prevalent in developing countries.  Those that think it is phony or a myth need to take the blinkers off and come out of thier cacoon and actually take notice of what is happening around them.

I think the most recent and credible survey on sex trafficking in Thailand was done by the Empower foundation 2012.  "The impact of anti trafficking policy and practice on Sex Worker's Human Rights inThailand."The survey said as it relates to Grey Man,  "However as our research shows, there remain strong incentives within the anti-trafficking movement to target the Thai sex industry using the old raid and rescue approach, which results inhuman rights abuses, legal violations and incompetent practice, all of which are still prominent in Not For Sale Campaign and Global Exchange 2012 A, 2012 article: The Grey Man Will Blow Critics Out Of The Water."To restate in terms everyone can understand the Empower Foundation in 2012 found that Grey man was using " the old raid and rescue approach, which results in human rights abuses, legal violations and incompetent practice."

The Grey man doesn't do raids, if a raid is to be conducted it is done by the police who analysis the information provided by those on the ground.  It is the police who make the decision and do the planning not the greyman as they have no authority.

From Pattaya Daily News, "The Grey Man team is bolstering its equipment and undercover techniques in an effort to wage a more effective campaign against sexual exploitation and trafficking all over Thailand, striking at brothels, beer bars, pimps and others involved in the trafficking and exploitation of children. Each strike is orchestrated in tandem with the Thai Police’s Anti-Human Trafficking Unit."The Grey Man team conducted successful operations on the Thai-Cambodian border, rescuing four Cambodian girls aged between 14 and 15 from padlocked rooms with bars on the windows in Aranyaprathet. That took place in September this year and Mama San and a number of Thai male helpers were arrested. In addition, in January, 2010, two Vietnamese girls, aged 10 and 14, were liberated from a brothel in Cambodia by the Grey Man team."So The Grey Man team did not do these things??? The news story said the Grey Man team conducted successful operations on the Thai-Cambodian border rescuing four Cambodian girls. Was that a lie?

[kerryk]

Many posters in this thread remind me of an old quote...It's been used before and I don't know who first said it...

"To thrive, evil needs nothing more than for good men to do nothing"

I have seen well intentioned reports created by academics in NGO's and GO's, quoting others quotes and each other endlessly and citing dubious facts based on limited and poor research. Having in depth experience at the pointy end of this work I can say I have read very few reports that accurately reflect the situation at hand on the ground. Very few NGO's dare to tread where organizations such as The Grey Man and others also involved in this work dare to go. These are the NGO's who are really in touch with the extent of the problem and deal with the victims and the traffickers on a daily basis.

So, for those relying on single line quotes from yet another Academic NGO report to base their incredibly narrow knowledge of the massive extent of human trafficking in Thailand and most of South East and South Asia I say this...

Go do some real research...Get out on the ground and have a look around before you shoot off at the mouth and prove yourself to be a completely clueless individual.

I would agree with that.  Tell us about Grey man.  Does it compare to Empower Foundation?  Empower Foundation, "More than 50,000 sex workers have been a formal part of Empower over the last 27 years.Empower members include sex workers from Thailand and migrant sex-workers mainly from Mekong countries such as Laos, Burma1, China, and Cambodia. Empower currently has centers based in 11 provinces in Thailand reaching over 20,000 sex workers regularly.Despite these efforts our industry is stillover represented in anti-trafficking raids and misrepresented as inherently violent, exploitative and an equivalent to human trafficking. People still do not know about or understand how current anti-trafficking practices are not only abusing the rights of individuals, but are a huge barrier to our efforts to further reduce exploitation in their industry.

So you represent Empower ?

No it is a Thai organization run by Thai women. They find foreign organizations run by males however well intentioned to be harmful. Read the survey and see what you think. It convinced me.

[flyingsporran]

I was reading the other, now closed, thread related to this subject and thinking that I want to do something to help this battle against child abuse. I would be happy to set up a direct debit to an accredited agency working on this subject in Thailand.

Now this news appears and everything looks murky with this particular organization. I don't know the truth of what happened, how could I possibly? However I do know that the standards of governance in a charity of this type should be beyond impeccable.

This story looks like an unmitigated disaster, and defeats the willingness of people like me to invest in this fight. Terrible.

I am aware of the TV rule that lobbying of members is not allowed, fair enough, if it was then we would be getting bombarded with requests every day in the week. I do feel though that there is a well of goodwill and strength amongst TV members in regards to this subject.

if someone could pm me and put me in the direction of an accredited organization that I can donate to I would appreciate it.

We will win this battle one child at a time.

Trafcord and FACE (Fight against Child Exploitation) are quite hands on here in Thailand., if you message me on my site I will give u the details

Andrew, your credibility takes a huge dive with this post.

You fail to mention that Traffcord initiated the complaints against The Grey Man and that one of their main employees was an ex-employee of The Grey Man and has a big chip upon his shoulder. Your reports have been one sided and ill informed. At least when you post, reveal all the facts, not just selective ones.

The person you refer to is not an employee of Traffcord. It is true however that there are disenfranchised ex-mebers of Grey Man. Grey Man hates Trafcord of course,. run by Ben Svasti (the British Hon Consil in Chiang Mai) and Deuan Wongsa - but you know that don't you?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

People who want to help sex workers should focus on their protection and education, actually **listening** to the people they are supposed to be helping. Empower does a lot of good work along those lines, and tries to dispel the whole traditional male-dominated "damsel in distress/knight in shining armor" syndrome. Western NGOs tend to focus on the sex industry and "trafficking children for sex" because those be the buttons to push for western-targeted fund-raising. Unfortunately many of these groups are coming from a fundamentalist "Christian" POV that prostitution is bad, and are actually trying to "rescue" sex workers who are actually empowered by their work and have no desire to be prevented from doing their job. Often the police are a big part of what the sex workers need protection from.

In conjunction with the Thai BiB, they have done a good job both here and in Cambodia to prevent farang from patronizing under-age brothels. However the local-on-local problem isn't in their "jurisdiction", and rather than moving on to other problems in urgent need of attention keep banging the "child sex trafficking drum" because that's where the shock value and hence funding dollars come from.

The issue of human trafficking is much more serious in industries other than the sex industry, and their point is that people serious about trafficking should focus on where the problems actually are.

Ultimately the sex industry should be legalized and re-structured to let the workers keep a higher proportion of their earnings and not be exploited by the current mafia pimp networks. Empower's focus in the meantime is to try to help the workers in the sex industry with their very real problems through education.

[samsiam]

. Western NGOs tend to focus on the sex industry and "trafficking children for sex" because those be the buttons to push for western-targeted fund-raising.

The issue of human trafficking is much more serious in industries other than the sex industry, and their point is that people serious about trafficking should focus on where the problems actually are.

While correct....I think the buttons pushed are by default and not the main aim of the majority of such organisations....what comes first...the shock value or the genuine concern for the kids.

Many people do it just because it is bad.

And while trafficking is prevalent in other industries, it is arguable the size by comparison to the sex industry...I would possibly agree on your side however.....to be trafficked as a child to work in a shoe factory is obviously horrendous for all involved, especially the child and the parents if they were not part of it....however trafficked to be raped and molested by adults cannot compare and should take preference over the first scenario if a choice needs to be made.......but a choice should never have to be made when it comes to little kids and this type of thing.

[tragickingdom]

Beware of NGO's and Missionaries, as they have build a complete industry around the myth of Sexslaves. If all those foreigners were really concerned about forced sex, they should start cleaning their own sleazy red light districts up. Over 90% of ALL child porn is produced in the West mainly the US.

[TommoPhysicist]

If you want to do some good visit a school and ask them which students need their school fees paid and pay it for them. Pay them every year that they pass their courses / exams and make sure they get all the way through high school and university if you feel so inclined.

Off topic now but

If you want to help children going to private schools in Thailand (state school is free)

Then the correct way is to tell the school, if they waive the school fees, you will pay for the childs food, books, uniforms and clothes.

That stops the school profiting from charity.

Edited March 26, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[jsflynn603]

Philanthropic not for profit organizations, even the big ones like the American Red Cross, when you look closely are all too often may be "non-profit" but in fact profit many in their higher echelons to an amazing extent. (I once read, perhaps a decade ago that the CEO of the American Red Cross's total annual compensation was in the millions). It seems that even non-profit organizations pay some within their ranks amazing amounts. Sadly I doubt much of what I hear. Walmart, at the entrance to each store has hundreds of pictures of "recovered" missing children. Walmart says 2468 children have been recovered and "reunited with their family." Many believe this to be recovery in the sense that a stranger abducted the child, but as far as I can tell, not a one fits into this category. It seems that all of them are "in-family" abductions where a family member took a child during a relationship break-up. Yes, the program is a good thing but it's not what many think it is. If Walmart's program has recovered a single child from a stranger abduction, I'd like to hear about it.

I'll agree that human trafficking exists, mostly in terms of forms of indentured slavery (common in Africa) where children are forced to work (all day, every day), and though I don't know the true numbers I'll agree that human sexual trafficking exists and that both should be stopped. It's sad to see such dishonesty because it taints those agencies that are truly and efficiently helping.

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and replies have been removed. Members are encouraged to use the report button to report objectionable/abusive posts so they can be acted upon.

[dighambara]

I was reading the other, now closed, thread related to this subject and thinking that I want to do something to help this battle against child abuse. I would be happy to set up a direct debit to an accredited agency working on this subject in Thailand.

Now this news appears and everything looks murky with this particular organization. I don't know the truth of what happened, how could I possibly? However I do know that the standards of governance in a charity of this type should be beyond impeccable.

This story looks like an unmitigated disaster, and defeats the willingness of people like me to invest in this fight. Terrible.

I am aware of the TV rule that lobbying of members is not allowed, fair enough, if it was then we would be getting bombarded with requests every day in the week. I do feel though that there is a well of goodwill and strength amongst TV members in regards to this subject.

if someone could pm me and put me in the direction of an accredited organization that I can donate to I would appreciate it.

We will win this battle one child at a time.

I have a good friend who worked on his own to help hill tribes in Mae Hong Son, but he became quite disillusioned over the NGOs in the area where each 'rescue' or supply 'delivery' was another feather in their cap and gave more promotion points and quicker rotation home. UN workers are reported to be the same - here for the notariety and promotional opportunities, not to help anyone.

IMHO, you woud have better success by adopt a homeless person or a poor family. Also, check with the orphanages in your area...

However, if those orphanages are like the ones near Udon, then the kids in them are already doing very well...

Edited March 26, 2012 by dighambara

[oldsailor35]

Sex trafficing is both a global problem, and increasing. Have you already forgotten the recent case in Thailand of the Malaysian girl and her Burmese companions. The 6 people convicted in the UK last week? I will be kind and call you unaware.

Agree it is a global problem and more prevalent in developing countries. Those that think it is phony or a myth need to take the blinkers off and come out of thier cacoon and actually take notice of what is happening around them.

I think the most recent and credible survey on sex trafficking in Thailand was done by the Empower foundation 2012. "The impact of anti trafficking policy and practice on Sex Worker's Human Rights inThailand."The survey said as it relates to Grey Man, "However as our research shows, there remain strong incentives within the anti-trafficking movement to target the Thai sex industry using the old raid and rescue approach, which results inhuman rights abuses, legal violations and incompetent practice, all of which are still prominent in Not For Sale Campaign and Global Exchange 2012 A, 2012 article: The Grey Man Will Blow Critics Out Of The Water."To restate in terms everyone can understand the Empower Foundation in 2012 found that Grey man was using " the old raid and rescue approach, which results in human rights abuses, legal violations and incompetent practice."

The Grey man doesn't do raids, if a raid is to be conducted it is done by the police who analysis the information provided by those on the ground. It is the police who make the decision and do the planning not the greyman as they have no authority.

You are correct, they only help police with leads, from information that they have discovered . I think that Sean's problem was that it got too big for him. Early days he did many good things with The Grey Man, thats when he was operating almost alone. However the organisation has now got many volunteers in Brisbane. It is not only with child prostitution that they work, but they do a lot for youngsters in the north. I have met with Sean and in fact went through an Australian Federal Police clearance, this was one of his pre requisites for working with The Grey man in Thailand. They are still a very good organisation who raise a lot of money for their work in the north. Just because someone made the mistake of declaring those kids as 'rescued from trafficking' it does not mean that The Grey Man is not a good organisation. Hats off to Sean, who incidentially is a very nice person, for standing down in the interest of the organisation which he formed.

Edited March 26, 2012 by oldsailor35

[endure]

Now this news appears and everything looks murky with this particular organization. I don't know the truth of what happened, how could I possibly? However I do know that the standards of governance in a charity of this type should be beyond impeccable.

I don't know of any credible charities, they all spend huge amounts of money on administration costs e.g. the head of the charity staying at the Hilton hotel at $400 per night. After the Bali bombing people donated millions of dollars to the Red Cross for the victims of that event but very little of it ever got to the people who needed it.

If you want to do some good visit a school and ask them which students need their school fees paid and pay it for them. Pay them every year that they pass their courses / exams and make sure they get all the way through high school and university if you feel so inclined.

http://www.thaistudentcharity.org/

[oldsailor35]

Ill be watching this story closely as it unfolds. When I first heard about Grey Man a number of years back I thought it sounded great. Recent stories have made me look closer at Grey Man's rhetoric and now I question what they are up to.

The Story that Andrew Drummond exposed, with the 22 Bill Tribe children having been allegedly rescued, as being a fabrication is worth a read. The phone interview he does with McBride is also an eye opener. A lot of splutter from Mcbride, but no hard facts.

It is possible that the Grey Man organisation and many of the volunteers working for it are okay, but Sean Mcbride was abusing his position? Are Sean McBride and Grey Man able to be treated separately? Is McBride an habitual liar and con artist? Is he committed to his cause and telling the truth?

I hope the Australian federal police investigation is thorough and gives us all some more answers.

No, Sean is not an habitual liar neither is he a con artist.

Yes he is committed to his cause. Thats why he resigned in the name of The Grey Man, to stop all this crap from those who would damage The Grey Man.

It would be nice if Andrew Drummond forgot about supporting his ex Grey Man mate with the chip on his shoulder, and reported some of the good things that Sean did especially in the early days of The Grey Man when he did covert work virtually alone in some very dangerous situations but then he was an ex SAS officer. ( a Rupert)

Edited March 26, 2012 by oldsailor35

[TAWP]

I was reading the other, now closed, thread related to this subject and thinking that I want to do something to help this battle against child abuse. I would be happy to set up a direct debit to an accredited agency working on this subject in Thailand.

Now this news appears and everything looks murky with this particular organization. I don't know the truth of what happened, how could I possibly? However I do know that the standards of governance in a charity of this type should be beyond impeccable.

This story looks like an unmitigated disaster, and defeats the willingness of people like me to invest in this fight. Terrible.

I am aware of the TV rule that lobbying of members is not allowed, fair enough, if it was then we would be getting bombarded with requests every day in the week. I do feel though that there is a well of goodwill and strength amongst TV members in regards to this subject.

if someone could pm me and put me in the direction of an accredited organization that I can donate to I would appreciate it.

We will win this battle one child at a time.

Trafcord and FACE (Fight against Child Exploitation) are quite hands on here in Thailand., if you message me on my site I will give u the details

Andrew, your credibility takes a huge dive with this post.

You fail to mention that Traffcord initiated the complaints against The Grey Man and that one of their main employees was an ex-employee of The Grey Man and has a big chip upon his shoulder. Your reports have been one sided and ill informed. At least when you post, reveal all the facts, not just selective ones.

His credibility doesn't take a nosedive because Trafcord initiated the complaint against The Grey Man, since it was right to complain about The Grey Man.

If anything, it shows that he knows the organizations here that might be trustworthy. And The Grey Man is not one of them.

[theblether]

A fascinating debate and I have received some interesting pm's. I take on board what is being said and I will most likely do a combination of donations.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

All this from the guy who thinks there is no Human Trafficking ?

No, all this from the article linked to in the opening post of this topic:

Operations to rescue sex trade workers in Thailand have become highly contentious. The Empower Foundation, which represents sex workers, said in a report released this month that ‘‘we have now reached a point where there are more women in the Thai sex industry being abused by anti-trafficking practice than there are women exploited by traffickers’’.

Also, please try to remain respectful to other posters. That means not intentionally distorting someone's statement. Not sure why anyone would do that.

Edited March 26, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[IMA_FARANG]

Within the last 6 months...don't remember when exactly... my Thai wife and I watched a Thai documentary on an organized child sex prositution ring that the Thai police had broken up. The girls shown were between 13 and 25. Many of the girls were not Thai...Burmese, Lao, but some Thai girls from tribal areas also. Most of the male clients were Thai, the people who ran the ring were Thai also. The girls were kept locked in their rooms and the "clients" brought to the girls rooms. Not all the girls were forced to participate, but many were...that is to say they may originally have become prostitutes voluntarily....but all of them is this sex prositution ring were not allowed to leave, no matter why they originally started prostitution. They were kept in that building, not allowed to go outside the building without male "gaurds" to escort them, and locked into their rooms at night when not "working". Of course, they themselves were not paid...all the money went to their "managers" who ran the place.ocassionaly they recieved small sums of money to buy personal items, and were given new clothes so they would look "nice" to the clients.

I don't remember exactly where this took place, but it was in Northwestern Thailand. The documentary was presented on Thai television, the Thai PBS station.

If that's not considered Thai sex slavery...what is?

This whole ducumentary was in Thai...so I had to follow it on a running commentary in broken English from my Thai wife.

Don't fool yourself, it still happens today. It's just that most Farangs and tourists don't see it...because it is delibertely hidden from them.

But as to the original point...yes, often those wanting to do a "good" thing get carried away by their enthusiasm and fabricate "evidence" or deliberately enhance the dramatic effect to sell their story to the public.

That's stupid...because the facts are bad enough. All they really had to do was just to film it, no enhancement needed.

Edited March 26, 2012 by IMA_FARANG

[chooka]

I was reading the other, now closed, thread related to this subject and thinking that I want to do something to help this battle against child abuse. I would be happy to set up a direct debit to an accredited agency working on this subject in Thailand.

Now this news appears and everything looks murky with this particular organization. I don't know the truth of what happened, how could I possibly? However I do know that the standards of governance in a charity of this type should be beyond impeccable.

This story looks like an unmitigated disaster, and defeats the willingness of people like me to invest in this fight. Terrible.

I am aware of the TV rule that lobbying of members is not allowed, fair enough, if it was then we would be getting bombarded with requests every day in the week. I do feel though that there is a well of goodwill and strength amongst TV members in regards to this subject.

if someone could pm me and put me in the direction of an accredited organization that I can donate to I would appreciate it.

We will win this battle one child at a time.

Trafcord and FACE (Fight against Child Exploitation) are quite hands on here in Thailand., if you message me on my site I will give u the details

Andrew, your credibility takes a huge dive with this post.

You fail to mention that Traffcord initiated the complaints against The Grey Man and that one of their main employees was an ex-employee of The Grey Man and has a big chip upon his shoulder. Your reports have been one sided and ill informed. At least when you post, reveal all the facts, not just selective ones.

His credibility doesn't take a nosedive because Trafcord initiated the complaint against The Grey Man, since it was right to complain about The Grey Man.

If anything, it shows that he knows the organizations here that might be trustworthy. And The Grey Man is not one of them.

Why? Please explain

[TAWP]

chooka >> The post explains why.

[samsiam]

chooka >> The post explains why.

no it does not...

[chooka]

A lot of people think that those involved in the grey man do so only for money. How many realise that only one person actually gets paid by the organisation and that person is a THAI. Yes a Thai man at the Bangkok office unlike all the others he doesn't give up his free time and expects to be paid to help his own people.. All the others in the organisation pay for everything out of thier own pockets, airfares, accomadation, food, car hire everything. They could be spending thier holidays laying on a beach in Thailand or drinking in a bar with 1/2 dozen bargirls on thier knees like a lot of those who condem what they try to do. How many who critisise have actually stood up in a train/bus to give thier seat to an elderly frail person? How many are the 60+ expats who have gone to the villages and paid for (sinsot) thier 19 yr old brides? This isn't helping the poor Thais this is self gratification.

A number of those involved in the Greyman are actually serving police officers from the various states and territories of Australia who require written authority from thier Chief Commissioners to perform outside work be it paid or charity. Authority that will not be granted unless the organisation has been thoughly investigated. The Chairperson of the greyman is a senior Federal Court judge and the organisation has the backing of the Australian Federal Government and all donations are tax deductable.

Some say that people should donate to the education of children instead of giving to NGO's and that is a fair point. How many realise that the majority of the money raised by the grey man actually goes into education/housing programs for the children who agree to be removed from thier situations. Money that is passed onto other organisations that take the children into thier care. The finacial records which are thoughly audited by the Australian Government are available under the Freedom of Information Act.

I am in know way associated with the Greyman or preaching the cause but have done just a little research and do know serving police who are associated with it. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but I do think it is a little foolish to condem something that you know absolutely nothing about. Yes I agree that some of the NGO's scoop all the cream off the top. I have a friend that worked for a Christian NGO in Kosovo and was paid 150K U.S tax free and flew 1st class. Lets not throw all NGO's into the same barrel and slap a lid on it. Some such as the greyman do not pay thier staff anything.

Edited March 27, 2012 by chooka

[meithai]

This is scary, what some missionaries are doing in Thailand...

[sparebox2]

Within the last 6 months...don't remember when exactly... my Thai wife and I watched a Thai documentary on an organized child sex prositution ring that the Thai police had broken up. The girls shown were between 13 and 25. Many of the girls were not Thai...Burmese, Lao, but some Thai girls from tribal areas also. Most of the male clients were Thai, the people who ran the ring were Thai also. The girls were kept locked in their rooms and the "clients" brought to the girls rooms. Not all the girls were forced to participate, but many were...that is to say they may originally have become prostitutes voluntarily....but all of them is this sex prositution ring were not allowed to leave, no matter why they originally started prostitution. They were kept in that building, not allowed to go outside the building without male "gaurds" to escort them, and locked into their rooms at night when not "working". Of course, they themselves were not paid...all the money went to their "managers" who ran the place.ocassionaly they recieved small sums of money to buy personal items, and were given new clothes so they would look "nice" to the clients.

I don't remember exactly where this took place, but it was in Northwestern Thailand. The documentary was presented on Thai television, the Thai PBS station.

If that's not considered Thai sex slavery...what is?

This whole ducumentary was in Thai...so I had to follow it on a running commentary in broken English from my Thai wife.

Don't fool yourself, it still happens today. It's just that most Farangs and tourists don't see it...because it is delibertely hidden from them.

But as to the original point...yes, often those wanting to do a "good" thing get carried away by their enthusiasm and fabricate "evidence" or deliberately enhance the dramatic effect to sell their story to the public.

That's stupid...because the facts are bad enough. All they really had to do was just to film it, no enhancement needed.

The one you watched could just be another fake documentry. Just like the Aussie one.

[kerryk]

A lot of people think that those involved in the grey man do so only for money.  How many realise that only one person actually gets paid by the organisation and that person is a THAI.  Yes a Thai man at the Bangkok office unlike all the others he doesn't give up his free time and expects to be paid to help his own people..  All the others in the organisation pay for everything out of thier own pockets, airfares, accomadation, food, car hire everything.  They could be spending thier holidays laying on a beach in Thailand or drinking in a bar with 1/2 dozen bargirls on thier knees like a lot of those who condem what they try to do.  How many who critisise have actually stood up in a train/bus to give thier seat to an elderly frail person?   How many are the 60+ expats who have gone to the villages and paid for (sinsot) thier 19 yr old brides?  This isn't helping the poor Thais this is self gratification.

A number of those involved in the Greyman are actually serving police officers from the various states and territories of Australia who require written authority from thier Chief Commissioners to perform outside work be it paid or charity.  Authority that will not be granted unless the organisation has been thoughly investigated.  The Chairperson of the greyman is a senior Federal Court judge and the organisation has the backing of the Australian Federal Government and all donations are tax deductable.

Some say that people should donate to the education of children instead of giving to NGO's and that is a fair point.  How many realise that the majority of the money raised by the grey man actually goes into education/housing programs for the children who agree to be removed from thier situations.  Money that is passed onto other organisations that take the children into thier care.  The finacial records which are thoughly audited by the Australian Government are available under the Freedom of Information Act.

I am in know way associated with the Greyman or  preaching the cause but have done just a little research and do know serving police who are associated with it.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion but I do think it is a little foolish to condem something that you know absolutely nothing about.  Yes I agree that some of the NGO's scoop all the cream off the top.  I have a friend that worked for a Christian NGO in Kosovo and was paid 150K U.S tax free and flew 1st class.  Lets not throw all NGO's into the same barrel and slap a lid on it.  Some such as the greyman do not pay thier staff anything.

Forgive me if I am wrong and please feel free to correct me. As far as I know the board of directors of Grey Man asked Sean McBride aka John Curtis the founder of Grey Man to resign because the Thai police in Chiang Mai cut ties with the group siting that the 21 hill tribe children from a village in northern Chiang Rai province were not rescued from prostitution as the charity claimed on its website.It is being reported in many Thai and Aussie newspapers that, “Police from the Chiang Mai police transnational crime unit said more than 20 hill-tribe children from a village in northern Chiang Rai province were not rescued from prostitution as the charity claimed on its website along with appeals for funds.”

[sparebox2]

This is scary, what some missionaries are doing in Thailand...

Too many topless women not blur out. This video should have a warning rating of 18+.