Australian Charity Head Accused Of Faking The Rescue Of Thai Hill Tribe Children Resigns

[samsiam]

The hidden agenda in the whole thing is the religious nuts in America working through some Australian dupes to re-criminalize sex workers.

You really know how to state bizarre hypothesis hey ??

So now the greyman is out to re criminalise sex workers.....lol

[kerryk]

The hidden agenda in the whole thing is the religious nuts in America working through some Australian dupes to re-criminalize sex workers.

You really know how to state bizarre hypothesis hey ??

So now the greyman is out to re criminalise sex workers.....lol

By using very emotional terms like “slavery,” paired with images of young girls — and usually girls of color — campaigns against “sex slavery” play on stereotypes, fears, and melodrama in order to gain public support.

The assumption that the “real men don’t buy girls” rests on is that there are good men and bad men, and that any man can become a good man by demonstrating his willingness to not buy sex.

The usual suspects here who place men in the paternalistic role of savior, and people in the sex trade as innocents to be protected. Then they ask us to pay them to perform the role of savior — tried in this case to make a silk purse out of a sows ear but it didn't work.

An Aussie undercover in Thailand, yea right that is believable. The only undercover work for an Aussie in Thailand is as a “john” and that is used to attempt to stop prostitution. And prostitution is synonymous with sex trafficking and sex slavery only in the minds of certain NGO's and some posters on TV.

Edited March 30, 2012 by kerryk

[BigJohnnyBKK]

A lot of people think that those involved in the grey man do so only for money. How many realise that only one person actually gets paid by the organisation and that person is a THAI. Yes a Thai man at the Bangkok office unlike all the others he doesn't give up his free time and expects to be paid to help his own people.. All the others in the organisation pay for everything out of thier own pockets, airfares, accomadation, food, car hire everything. They could be spending thier holidays laying on a beach in Thailand or drinking in a bar with 1/2 dozen bargirls on thier knees like a lot of those who condem what they try to do. How many who critisise have actually stood up in a train/bus to give thier seat to an elderly frail person? How many are the 60+ expats who have gone to the villages and paid for (sinsot) thier 19 yr old brides? This isn't helping the poor Thais this is self gratification.

A number of those involved in the Greyman are actually serving police officers from the various states and territories of Australia who require written authority from thier Chief Commissioners to perform outside work be it paid or charity. Authority that will not be granted unless the organisation has been thoughly investigated. The Chairperson of the greyman is a senior Federal Court judge and the organisation has the backing of the Australian Federal Government and all donations are tax deductable.

Some say that people should donate to the education of children instead of giving to NGO's and that is a fair point. How many realise that the majority of the money raised by the grey man actually goes into education/housing programs for the children who agree to be removed from thier situations. Money that is passed onto other organisations that take the children into thier care. The finacial records which are thoughly audited by the Australian Government are available under the Freedom of Information Act.

I am in know way associated with the Greyman or preaching the cause but have done just a little research and do know serving police who are associated with it. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but I do think it is a little foolish to condem something that you know absolutely nothing about. Yes I agree that some of the NGO's scoop all the cream off the top. I have a friend that worked for a Christian NGO in Kosovo and was paid 150K U.S tax free and flew 1st class. Lets not throw all NGO's into the same barrel and slap a lid on it. Some such as the greyman do not pay thier staff anything.

Thanks very much for what sounds like factual information. What in your opinion is the truth about the allegations about the invented circumstances in the current case?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

An Aussie undercover in Thailand, yea right that is believable. The only undercover work for an Aussie in Thailand is as a “john” and that is used to attempt to stop prostitution. And prostitution is synonymous with sex trafficking and sex slavery only in the minds of certain NGO's and some posters on TV.

I completely agree with most of your points - prostitution is usually victimless and should be legalized. Sex workers should be educated, empowered and protected from what they perceive to be problems, actual health dangers, voilence and abuse by pimps and police as much as customers.

NGOs working in this area should be local and led by women, ideally empowered sex workers themselves, perhaps former but not necessarily, since there shouldn't be any stigma attached.

However if there are well-trained white knights willing to put themselves in harm's way at not charge, provided they are kept on a tight leash under the control of right-minded females, I do see that they can have a role, as long as the local law enforcement can be given incentives to actually do the right thing instead of being part of the problem.

Undercover as farang predatory paedophile johns, ideally speaking Thai and fed decent local knowledge and intelligence. Prowling not only the usual areas but all poor areas of the city and countryside, doing their best to befriend poor families and their children, attempting to persuade people to procure children for sex.

Starting with not teenagers but actual pre-pubescent children. Flashing lots of money around. And as they find people willing to help them get them locked up. Including parents willing to sell their kids.

Get the word spread around all through the population that if a farang comes around with those kind of intentions, they will get big rewards for turning him in.

In parallel, launch a proper sex education campaign starting at the lower grade levels where most poor rural kids are actually still in school (8-10 years old) on contraception, AIDS prevention etc, also indoctrination on turning in anyone trying to molest them, including relatives and neighbors.

Of course the above won't happen so the rest is half-joking speculation:

Let the grey men help with role-play activities, maybe even get some English language practice in - "hey you Papa you want a blow job from my sister? Haha I call my uncle he police!"

Start requiring the boys and men fathering all those upcountry babies to actually take responsibility for the kids, teach people it's actually better to allow 12-15 year olds to have abortions rather than sending them out to work and leaving their babies in the shack with grandma.

Then start cracking down on that age group being sent out to work in the sex industry, continue to focus on the western pedobear boogeyman if that helps Thai society accept the change over time. Work your way up until say 16, 17 years old, maybe even 18-19 if that starts to be an age where upcountry poor kids still go to school.

If not that's already past marrying age for most of those girls, and if they choose to become sex workers in search of the jackpot (marrying a farang) then that's their choice.

And here's the common area among many people taking sides in apparent opposition with each other:

Attack the real problem, resources appropriate to effectiveness. Stop milking the "sex trafficking of children" thing to further a much more general anti-sex-industry agenda, trying to prevent consenting adults from indulging in their victimless vices. Empower the sex workers so they don't need "protecting" from others, can continue to do what they choose to do in safety and dignity. Let "sex tourists" wear the label with pride (actually I prefer "sex traveler" 8-)

[samsiam]

attempting to persuade people to procure children for sex.

Stop milking the "sex trafficking of children" thing to further a much more general anti-sex-industry agenda, trying to prevent consenting adults from indulging in their victimless vices.

What you state here is entrapment....it is a bumpy road to travel down here, 'persuading' someone to do it for you should not really be done as they may never have contemplated if you did not come along and talk them into it and flash your cash.

Granted if they then go and do it, they are no better in reality.

There are enough hard core people doing it now as a profession to make examples of without perhaps talking people into it.

The anti child sex angle is just that...anti child sex....I think you will find most people that have genuine concerns and do things about it are not doing it by default to effect someway the larger and more normal sex industry....we are talking about kids here forced into sex one way or another....not to be taken lightly and the role genuine interested people take in it is not the usual 'white knight' syndrome....that is what guys with to much gungho do without thinking too much.....I have known a few back home to do this and really while their naive motives are credible...their end result is quite poor and often sad.

As for the Aussie sas and such....well perhaps they have some useful experience and skills to be able to do such things....while they cannot blend in to be thai obviously, they have very useful areas they can use to gather information and evidence. I do believe that they should be able to speak thai quite well, even if they never use it in the undercover situation, they can listen and here things and that can be even more useful when hearing people talk openly thinking the foreigner cannot understand.

Personally I think the McBride thing got to big for him, in the end it was like running a mid size company with staff and training which he may not have had the skills to do properly and it got away from him for whatever reason.

There is a lot more to it though I believe than the black and white info available to us....and it is that information that will prove one side right and the other not so....I tend to lean to the side with credibility in the past and effort...rather than the side that has history of scams and treachery.

Edited March 30, 2012 by samsiam

[flyingsporran]

Did someone just say that we must accept the dis-reputed organizations account of the event, even if the local police oppose it, unless we have much more evidence from other sources?

Strange - shouldn't it be the job of The Grey Men to prove their assertions?

But it doesn't matter - journalists have already done the trip, talked to the kids and the families and the truth is out. The rescue was faked. The photo-op was staged.

What is the defense over this?

The defence over what? Where is the crime? There is no misappropriation of funds and all books are in order. This is allegations by a disgrunted former Thai employee and the BIB who are concerned about corruption and Australian farangs being scammed. This from probably the most corrupt police in the world who have matresses jammed packed full of tea money scammed from farangs and others. People who drive around in expensive imported luxury vehicles that they purchased on thier 4,000 baht per month wage which has not raised suspicion of corrution in thier own ranks.

On a point of fact this enquiry had nothing to do with a disgruntled former employee although I understand there are a few of them. It started when the Australian press reports of a dramatic rescue of 21 hill tribe children in Chiang Rai reached Thailand and everybody wanted to know what it was all about.

The fact that there are corrupt Thai police is a given but not relevant to this case. Having said that, apart from hyping, and laying on the ex-special forces stuff a bit thick there is no question that 'The Grey Man' and its members and supporters all have good intentions.

Whre did you get your facts? I would be interested to know.

Pretty much everywhere - initially from 'The Grey Man's publicity and facebook pages, secondly from Curtis' emails to other parties, then going to the village, speaking to the kids and other villagers, and the guy who owned the house where The Grey Man stayed, then, to COSA, then to Trafcord, then to the Department of Social Development and Human Security. I have not spoken to any disaffected 'Grey Men' but of course I knew they existed.

But I think you have to take a step back here.

Those 22 Akhas represented most of the community between 11 and 14 in that small area. The area is not as impoverished as many others. It produces Chinese, tea, Assam tea, Wawee Coffee, etc. Every third house has a TV satellite dish and education is provided free along with school books uniforms, and meals by the Thai government out of a special fund.

Trafficking still exists but Thailand has come a long way. These places are not so remote. If the whole teenage population of a village is/was about to be kidnapped that would be mammoth news.

The Grey Man claimed to have put them in a safe house to hide them from the traffickers - this is where COSA comes in - now look what the boss of COSA has to say on Channel 7....he says Australian journalists confiscated his pictures of the victims to give a bad story. This was in fact the story Grey Man put out itself, which we say was hyped, not subsequent stories in the Australian and SMH. In fact pictures of the victims were taken not as kidnap victims, but as applicants for COSA aid towards health and schooling. - no, I repeat, the Aussie press did not confiscate these - Grey Man issued these pictures and put little black patches across their eyes which suggests they had been the victims of sexual exploitation. Its pretty much all in the short video on youtube 'The Grey Man and the Akhas'.

If you sit back and read or watch all 'The Grey Man' material 'dodging molotov cocktails' and 'bullets richoteing off pick-ups', you may end up questioning them yourself. Having said that I repeat that no newspaper has questioned the good intentions of 'The Grey Man' or that they have collected cash for hill tribe kids...but that is what they have done, and the jungle derring do stories are really pushing the boat out.

Finally of course they are highly critical of the Thai police. Now a lot of criticism at the Thai police is well aimed. But on the other hand this is a sovereign country and quite frankly if they actually did act in the way they did they would be breaking Thai laws anyway.

And if they did save these kids from kidnapping what were they doing to protect them once 'The Grey Men' left the country?....

[oldsailor35]

Did someone just say that we must accept the dis-reputed organizations account of the event, even if the local police oppose it, unless we have much more evidence from other sources?

Strange - shouldn't it be the job of The Grey Men to prove their assertions?

But it doesn't matter - journalists have already done the trip, talked to the kids and the families and the truth is out. The rescue was faked. The photo-op was staged.

What is the defense over this?

The defence over what? Where is the crime? There is no misappropriation of funds and all books are in order. This is allegations by a disgrunted former Thai employee and the BIB who are concerned about corruption and Australian farangs being scammed. This from probably the most corrupt police in the world who have matresses jammed packed full of tea money scammed from farangs and others. People who drive around in expensive imported luxury vehicles that they purchased on thier 4,000 baht per month wage which has not raised suspicion of corrution in thier own ranks.

On a point of fact this enquiry had nothing to do with a disgruntled former employee although I understand there are a few of them. It started when the Australian press reports of a dramatic rescue of 21 hill tribe children in Chiang Rai reached Thailand and everybody wanted to know what it was all about.

The fact that there are corrupt Thai police is a given but not relevant to this case. Having said that, apart from hyping, and laying on the ex-special forces stuff a bit thick there is no question that 'The Grey Man' and its members and supporters all have good intentions.

So pay attention TAWP, please try to understand, even if it is rather hard for you !

[TAWP]

So pay attention TAWP, please try to understand, even if it is rather hard for you !

I am paying attention.

So-far we have several posters that try to dodge, evade and talk around the fact that he lied, willingly and repeatedly, claiming that they rescued children that was never in any danger or in any shape taken from their parents.

I understand that must be hard for you.

[flyingsporran]

Thats a tad 'sensational'.....like he resigned as a result of Drummonds investigation.

Its also more than a tad accurate but of course many organisations and people assisted..

Edited March 31, 2012 by flyingsporran

[kerryk]

I think the Grey Man line that someone handed me was that he resigned 9 months ago. Can't remember if it was in a post or PM. Maybe one of his supporters could confirm or deny. It is a bit funny that no one from the organization is posting here to tell us the truth, if it is different than what has been reported in the media.

[flyingsporran]

I think the Grey Man line that someone handed me was that he resigned 9 months ago. Can't remember if it was in a post or PM. Maybe one of his supporters could confirm or deny. It is a bit funny that no one from the organization is posting here to tell us the truth, if it is different than what has been reported in the media.

He was the President when I spoke to him in January. The Sydney Morning Herald reported his resignation last Sunday.

Edited March 31, 2012 by flyingsporran

[kerryk]

Sex trafficing is both a global problem, and increasing. Have you already forgotten the recent case in Thailand of the Malaysian girl and her Burmese companions. The 6 people convicted in the UK last week? I will be kind and call you unaware.

Agree it is a global problem and more prevalent in developing countries. Those that think it is phony or a myth need to take the blinkers off and come out of thier cacoon and actually take notice of what is happening around them.

I think the most recent and credible survey on sex trafficking in Thailand was done by the Empower foundation 2012. "The impact of anti trafficking policy and practice on Sex Worker's Human Rights inThailand."The survey said as it relates to Grey Man, "However as our research shows, there remain strong incentives within the anti-trafficking movement to target the Thai sex industry using the old raid and rescue approach, which results inhuman rights abuses, legal violations and incompetent practice, all of which are still prominent in Not For Sale Campaign and Global Exchange 2012 A, 2012 article: The Grey Man Will Blow Critics Out Of The Water."To restate in terms everyone can understand the Empower Foundation in 2012 found that Grey man was using " the old raid and rescue approach, which results in human rights abuses, legal violations and incompetent practice."

The Grey man doesn't do raids, if a raid is to be conducted it is done by the police who analysis the information provided by those on the ground. It is the police who make the decision and do the planning not the greyman as they have no authority.

I went to the Greyman site. http://www.thegreyman.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=85&Itemid=55

It says there and I quote, "The Grey Man organisation puts their operatives into harm’s way by going into the brothels to get kids out. Some of our people are former special-forces soldiers, some are ex-police but we also have journalists, bikers and academics. In fact, anyone can be a Grey Man. All it takes is to make a stand for something, to declare ‘If not me…then who?’ and most importantly, TAKE ACTION!" So who is lying George, You or the Grey Man website?

[Lite Beer]

A defamatory post and the replies to it deleted.

[lovelaos]

Unfortunately not a surprise, a lot of NGOs in Thailand seem dodgy and self serving, exploiting both Thailand and well intentioned people back home who don't really know what it is going on. Most of these people shouldn't even be in Thailand but in Laos or Cambodia to begin with, but life there is rough and not many farang want to live there when they could have a cushy life in Thailand.

Believe me, the NGO's are definately not living a rough life in Laos. You should see the mansions they live in here that are provided with their HUGE NGO salaries.

[softgeorge]

Yes anyone can be a greyman. Just like anyone can be Prime Minister or President as long as they meet the criteria. I think you are a reasonable man Kerry and can understand the definition of harms way in regards to a covert and visible presence.

[chooka]

Did someone just say that we must accept the dis-reputed organizations account of the event, even if the local police oppose it, unless we have much more evidence from other sources?

Strange - shouldn't it be the job of The Grey Men to prove their assertions?

But it doesn't matter - journalists have already done the trip, talked to the kids and the families and the truth is out. The rescue was faked. The photo-op was staged.

What is the defense over this?

The defence over what? Where is the crime? There is no misappropriation of funds and all books are in order. This is allegations by a disgrunted former Thai employee and the BIB who are concerned about corruption and Australian farangs being scammed. This from probably the most corrupt police in the world who have matresses jammed packed full of tea money scammed from farangs and others. People who drive around in expensive imported luxury vehicles that they purchased on thier 4,000 baht per month wage which has not raised suspicion of corrution in thier own ranks.

Defense over faking a rescue to gain founds, perhaps?

I am starting to get worried over the well-being of some of you.

Where is the evidence that it was faked to get funds? I hear the allegations but do not see any evidence. I have seen a faked video by Drummond that is all and nothing ilegal found by Australian authorities.

[samsiam]

I would not say drummonds video is faked....he showed what he uncovered and what was presented to him.......seems one sided because McBride failed to present his side at all well.

[pipo1000]

Did someone just say that we must accept the dis-reputed organizations account of the event, even if the local police oppose it, unless we have much more evidence from other sources?

Strange - shouldn't it be the job of The Grey Men to prove their assertions?

But it doesn't matter - journalists have already done the trip, talked to the kids and the families and the truth is out. The rescue was faked. The photo-op was staged.

What is the defense over this?

The defence over what? Where is the crime? There is no misappropriation of funds and all books are in order. This is allegations by a disgrunted former Thai employee and the BIB who are concerned about corruption and Australian farangs being scammed. This from probably the most corrupt police in the world who have matresses jammed packed full of tea money scammed from farangs and others. People who drive around in expensive imported luxury vehicles that they purchased on thier 4,000 baht per month wage which has not raised suspicion of corrution in thier own ranks.

Defense over faking a rescue to gain founds, perhaps?

I am starting to get worried over the well-being of some of you.

Where is the evidence that it was faked to get funds? I hear the allegations but do not see any evidence. I have seen a faked video by Drummond that is all and nothing ilegal found by Australian authorities.

Faked to get funds or faked with other intentions,who knows.Fact is that an NGO should not produce faked photo op's for any reason,and organisations which do this kind of things have no credibility.

By the way,I would think that only the producing of such fake evidences are considered a crime in any court.

[kerryk]

I think we are at that point when no one knows what we as thread contributors are communally talking about anymore.

Since I am a nice guy I'll try and re state the issue.

Mr. McBride AKA John Curtis has been accused of faking a rescue of hill tribe children. I think it goes without saying that since all of the income of the Grey Man charity comes from donations that he was using the supposed fake rescue as publicity to gain contributions.

Sex trafficking expert Laura Agustin, writing at her blog The Naked Anthropologist, gives her take:

This news story can hardly be counted on for the final facts of this matter, and it may be that the charity is locked in some kind of struggle for power or money with Thai police. But it is creepy enough that an Australian charity should, as they proclaim, promote the use of former Australian soldiers and police in daring missions to rescue victims of sex trafficking in Asia.

If any brothels have become dangerous places, rescue raids are surely the reason. The gall!

Agustin doesn't hold back: Andrew Hunter from the Asia-Pacific Network of Sex Workers (APNSW) tells me that there are NGO-run women's shelters across Cambodia that rely on funding from donors like USAID [united States Agency for International Development] and that they use lurid stories of sexual abuse to raise money. It's kind of pornographic in a way - but it seems making up stories of the enslavement and sexual degradation of women raises more funds.

I think there is the crux of the issues for me which is the faking and in addition the whole rescue mentality.

I think the issue of the fake is rather simple. Grey Man says the kids were going to be trafficked into some kind of slavery be it sexual or industrial and the people in the village deny that assertion.

The Sydney Morning Herald reports:

THE head of an Australian charity accused of faking the rescue of Thai hill-tribe children from sexual slavery has resigned.

Former Australian commando Sean McBride stepped down from the Grey Man charity at the weekend following new claims about the organization and an investigation into the children by Thailand's Department of Special Investigation.

Grey Man's former head of investigations in Thailand said the charity's website had exaggerated the success of its operations, including changing the ages of victims.

9News in Australia reports: But police say the charity, headed by former Australian army commando Sean McBride, lied about rescuing 21 children from a hill tribe in northern Chiang Rai province. Police from the Chiang Mai-based transnational crime unit say the children never left their homes, continued to attend school and were negatively impacted by publicity from the reported rescue.

To restate the issues, the first is a difference of opinion between the Thai authorities and Grey Man as to what took place and the second issue is between Grey Man and women's groups involved in sex trafficking like Empower and Laura Agustin that disagree with rescue approach and feel activities like the Rambo approach of Grey Man should be stopped.

Which brings us to a third issue and that is does the Grey Man actually rescue children? He says he does, quote “The Grey Man organization puts their operatives into harm’s way by going into the brothels to get kids out. Some of our people are former special-forces soldiers, some are ex-police” By reading the previous quote it would seem the Grey Man is at least implying that it actually rescues children but in fact Soft George who says he has accurate information says Grey Man does not actually rescue children and only provides intelligence.

[samsiam]

You forget that he could of quite easily lost control of his organisation by way of its growth.

Just because he was good and good hearted at what he was doing in the early days...does not mean he was good at running and organising a plethora of ramboes.

There were reports of being given the information from his 'operatives'....McBride himself did not conduct this operation in question.....did he go ahead with too much enthusiam and report....for the funds and feel good factor....before the facts being quantified....maybe.....but obviously then why lie about it later if that was the case......either way he was in the pooh....but maybe in the pooh for dishonest...or... ill advised but well meaning reasons.

Either way....while I have admired the GM's efforts....I have always had the feeling that they never really did all that much considering their fame.

I mean...where is the list of all the hugely successful and substantial rescues......I have only seen a few 15yo girls rescued from Pattaya way and an Indian girl I think in a circus and some brick workers......not a list saying 'look at us' in reality.

But maybe I am not looking in the right places.....I have been accuse...wrongly....of poor comprehension.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

The fact is that in reality the amount of true trafficking of minors is very tiny, both in proportion to the consensual sex industry, and to the overall trafficking problem which is mostly servicing other industries the international community doesn't care about.

Another relevant fact is that organized sex industry in the region has effectively banned farang customers from those facilities offering minors.

Now, given that, to the extent there still are criminal networks engaged in trafficking minors for the sex industry, they have by now tightened up their security, in conjunction with their corrupt government sponsors/partners/owners, so that they are largely impervious to any farang-based investigations, much less enforcement.

To the extent any farang organizations are interested in further reducing contact between local minors and farang customers, they will need to engage in grass-roots operations. The potential **enforcement** methods targeted at individuals would be considered entrapment by most. Only widespread educational and marketing efforts would be both fair and effective, but they would be expensive and not as attractive from a publicity POV to donors.

However, as most of the organizations involved in these efforts view the sex industry and its workers from a traditional patriarchal/religious POV, I'm sure the ineffective waste of money will continue under the guise of rescuing children trafficked for sex.

And just like the police, only add to the real problems of the sex workers rather than solving them.

[samsiam]

I really fail to see how rescuing...by whatever means...a child from forced sex ....can add to their problems.

Would you like to donate one of your children for an experiment ??

[kerryk]

I really fail to see how rescuing...by whatever means...a child from forced sex ....can add to their problems.

Would you like to donate one of your children for an experiment ??

The key word is forced. Sam you think that women are forced into prostitution. The Female NGO's are saying that the paramilitary organizations don't rescue but arrest the women and jail and deport them back to their own countries.

The former head of Grey Man’s 10-person Thai investigation unit said Australian volunteers who travelled to Thailand to support operations could provide little assistance because they could not speak Thai and had little knowledge of Thai culture. Mr McBride said the man did not like working with foreigners ‘‘so we had to send our volunteers off to do their own tasks’’ (whatever that may be!).

Operations to rescue sex trade workers in Thailand have become highly contentious. The Empower Foundation, which represents sex workers, said in a report released this month that ‘‘we have now reached a point where there are more women in the Thai sex industry being abused by anti-trafficking practice than there are women exploited by traffickers’’.

To to tell you again. What your post assumes is that someone is forced to do something. There is no evidence of that in the recent Grey Man Photo ops. If you have any information about forced prostitution I would suggest contacting the authorities and doing something about it.

Edited April 5, 2012 by kerryk

[samsiam]

You failed to see the word 'child' in my post right ??

Either that you you believe children do it by choice.

By the way...do not 'assume' anything as you tend to look like you get it wrong most times.

As for the former head of GM's thai based ops....self interests pop into my mind....dunno about yours....obviously not.

[kerryk]

You failed to see the word 'child' in my post right ??

Either that you you believe children do it by choice.

By the way...do not 'assume' anything as you tend to look like you get it wrong most times.

As for the former head of GM's thai based ops....self interests pop into my mind....dunno about yours....obviously not.

Please present one shred of evidence where Grey Man has rescued a child from prostitution in Thailand that has been confirmed by a reputable source. Let alone the 21 he says he rescued from something but he is not specific what. Grey man said he would provide all of that information the first time Drummond talked to him but he has not done so.

You are assuming that Grey Man rescued some children from prostitution. I have never seen anything in print about Grey Man rescuing a child from prostitution. To me a child is a person who has not reached the age of puberty.

[samsiam]

Please present one shred of evidence that they have not.

That should keep you busy for a little bit....

[kerryk]

Please present one shred of evidence that they have not.

That should keep you busy for a little bit....

Nine news Australia , Sydney Morning herald.

Akha Heritage Foundation, Chiang Mai times.

Brisbane times, Andrew Drummond Blog.

That is what this whole thread is about. The Grey Man quit because all of the above said he faked the rescue of 21 children.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

While correct....I think the buttons pushed are by default and not the main aim of the majority of such organisations....what comes first...the shock value or the genuine concern for the kids.

Many people do it just because it is bad.

Sorry, not following, do what, lie about the extent of the problem?

And while trafficking is prevalent in other industries, it is arguable the size by comparison to the sex industry...I would possibly agree on your side however.....to be trafficked as a child to work in a shoe factory is obviously horrendous for all involved.

Sorry if I wasn't more clear, I wasn't talking about kids, children are a tiny tiny part of human trafficking problems overall.

The major problems with trafficking per se in Thailand are that workers - normal adult people at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder in the neighboring much poorer countries - are deceived into thinking they will be coming to Thailand into jobs with decent pay and working conditions. However when they arrive they actually work in slave-like conditions. Since they are here illegally, their employer can act with impunity, even killing troublemakers and they aren't able to escape. The Thai fishing industry is most blatant about it, but many ordinary factories operate this way. There was a recent case where a farang was treated this way, I think it was a Russian chained up for years in a factory in Samut Prakan or Chonburi, don't know whatever happened to him.

There isn't anyone putting big resources into publicising much less actually effectively solving the problem, because most Thais don't care, they are brainwashed into thinking the Burmese/Cambodian/Laos are subhuman, and of course it means higher profits for those businessmen. The international community either doesn't care, or looks the other way to keep in good with the government, whose officials are profiting from the corruption, or actively participating themselves, or just don't want more bad publicity to spoil the fine reputation of their country LOL.

None of this has anything with children, but horrible nonetheless.

The "Christian" organizations focus on the sex side of things because that's where their head is at I'm sure just as much the fundraising side. Western government officials obviously like favorable publicity as well. And although they claim to be trying to protect sex workers, most of the time they're just causing them more problems, because their attitude is that they should be taken out of the industry rather than given good conditions within it, protected from disease, abuse by dangerous customers, corrupt police, violent employers etc. They often end up causing even more problems for the workers rather than solving them. Just publicising "children trafficked for prostitution" is self-interested tilting at windmills.

IMO only secular women-led organizations should be allowed to operate wrt the sex industry, ideally led by current or former sex workers. Strategies and objectives need to be formulated by asking the sex workers themselves "what are the dangers and problems you face, and how do you think they can be solved?" And then using education and awareness campaigns within the industry to empower the workers themselves to engage in grassroots lobbying efforts, public awareness and education, and even soliciting international pressure where appropriate to accomplish their goals.

Where this approach has been taken in developed countries, most of the time the objectives that emerge are to decriminalize the business, enable the workers to own and operate their own brothels rather than working for pimps, put in place effective protections from abuse and STD transmission, and make progress toward better working conditions, just as in any other industry.

Now, "child labour" issues are an entirely different story, but there you also run into all kinds of cultural discontinuities, as Thais consider it perfectly appropriate for peasant farming families to pull their young kids out of school to work in the rice fields in high season, and many hundreds of thousands of young girls are sent from upcountry to work as servants in wealthier families' houses. There are at least eight of these right here on the block where I live in Bangkok, it's just considered normal when the source family doesn't have enough to feed and educate all their kids, most poor families are very happy if their kids can get reasonably paying jobs (4+k/mo) once they get to 13 or so.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

You are assuming that Grey Man rescued some children from prostitution. I have never seen anything in print about Grey Man rescuing a child from prostitution. To me a child is a person who has not reached the age of puberty.

I think most reasonable people would be quite happy if they were actually effective in "rescuing" girls of any age forced against their will into prostitution.

Now if you had say 16-17 year-olds that wanted to stay in the business complaining about being "rescued" you might have a good case in a theoretical sense of abstract morality, but of course international law has more or less standardized on 18, and in fact Thailand defines it at 20 wrt the sex industry, again at least in theory legally, if not in actual enforcement.

And keep in mind if they have had a few successes, even only in the narrow legalistic terms defined above, that doesn't make it OK to falsify sensationalistic publicity to further the organization's interest.

Please present one shred of evidence that they have not.

That should keep you busy for a little bit....

I would have thought you'd know that it's inherently impossible to prove a negative, e.g. "there is no God". It is the responsibility of those asserting a positive to provide the proof.

[samsiam]

Please present one shred of evidence that they have not.

That should keep you busy for a little bit....

Nine news Australia , Sydney Morning herald.

Akha Heritage Foundation, Chiang Mai times.

Brisbane times, Andrew Drummond Blog.

That is what this whole thread is about. The Grey Man quit because all of the above said he faked the rescue of 21 children.

I see where the problem lies....your definition of proof sucks.