Martin Luther King Jr

[sbk]

Monday, January 19th was Martin Luther King jr Day. For those of you who wonder about the relevancy of the man nearly 40 years later, read the following speech. The relevancy of his wisdom to the modern world is amazing.

Silence is Betrayal

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., delivered the following address from Riverside Church, New York City, April 4th, 1967.

A time comes when silence is betrayal. Even when pressed by the demands of inner truth, men do not easily assume the task of opposing their government's policy, especially in time of war. Nor does the human spirit move without great difficulty against all the apathy of conformist thought within one's own bosom and in the surrounding world. Moreover, when the issues at hand seem as perplexing as they often do in the case of dreadful conflict, we are always on the verge of being mesmerized by uncertainty. But we must move on.

Some of us who have already begun to break the silence of the night have found that the calling to speak is often a vocation of agony, but we must speak. We must speak with all the humility that is appropriate to our limited vision, but we must speak. For we are deeply in need of a new way beyond the darkness that seems so close around us.

We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for the victims of our nation, for those it calls "enemy," for no document from human hands can make these humans any less our brothers. I think of them, too, because it is clear to me that there will be no meaningful solution until some attempt is made to know them and hear their broken cries.

I am convinced that if we are to get on the right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin the shift from a thing-oriented society to a person-oriented society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights, are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, extreme materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered.

A true revolution of values will lay hands on the world order and say of war, "This way of settling differences is not just." A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death.

America, the richest and most powerful nation in the world, can well lead the way in this revolution of values. There is nothing except a tragic death wish to prevent us from reordering our priorities over the pursuit of war.

This call for a worldwide fellowship that lifts neighborly concern beyond one's tribe, clan, race, class, and nation is in reality a call for an all-embracing and unconditional love for all mankind. We can no longer afford to worship the God of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. The oceans of history are made turbulent by the ever-rising tides of hate. History is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursued this self-defeating path of hate.

We still have a choice today: nonviolent coexistence or violent co-annihilation. We must move past indecision to action. If we do not act, we shall surely be dragged down the long, dark, and shameful corridors of time reserved for those who possess power without compassion, might without morality, and strength without sight.

Now let us begin. Now let us rededicate ourselves in the long and bitter, but beautiful struggle for a new world. If we will but make the right choice, we will be able to speed up the day, all over America and all over the world, when justice will roll down like waters, and righteousness like a mighty stream.

May our country, on the brink of war, take to heart the final refrain of "America, the Beautiful": "America! America! God mend thine ev'ry flaw, Confirm thy soul in self-control, Thy liberty in law."

[the gentleman]

Great, wise and Noble!

Now that is what a President should be thinking - that is a true leader and he is not forgotten and never will be.

A truly great man, listens, reflects and does what is best for all people, not just those who will have "the keys to the city"..

Thanks sbk - truly wise.

[plachon]

Yes, thanks sbk for that well chosen speech by a great and courageous man. The words are even more relevant today than they were then IMHO, but in a nation where some estimate that over 40 million are functionally illiterate and another 200 million or so are literate, but very rarely read anything, it is a pity that so few people at whom they're aimed, will ever get to read, hear or know them. That last line about "liberty in law" is especially poignant for the hundreds denied it, whether in Guantannamo Bay, or other US "holding camps" abroad. It is hard to understand how a once great nation can have sunk to its current lows, but then reading the bit about "betrayal in silence" and one begins to understand.

[Georgie-Porgie]

Please plachon, Martin Luther King was truly a man of peace. You support terrorism against innocent men, women and children! Spare us your twisted lies and self-serving piety.

[plachon]

Please plachon, Martin Luther King was truly a man of peace. You support terrorism against innocent men, women and children! Spare us your twisted lies and self-serving piety.

Perhaps you'd like to support that libelous accusation with a few supporting facts, G-P. Also, please point out any "lies" you have detected. You really are sounding more desperate as each day passes, G-P.

[Georgie-Porgie]

Oh come on plachon, your type never comes out and admit what you really feel, but it doesn't take much to read between the lines and figure out which side you are in in the War against Terrorism. However, your good friend pepe, did slip yesterday:

Do you know why you were targetted on 9-11 ?

Because you also deserved it.  ...You will never understand.

and again today:

So did the Pentagon deserved to be targetted ? Obviously yes

As far as lies, here's just one, but I don't feel like cutting and pasting ALL day!

The US has an illegitimate President running the country

Start spinning dim-wit!

[Thaiquila]

MLK on American arrogance with audio!:

Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as His divine

messianic force to be -- a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a

way of standing before the nations with judgment, and it seems that I can

hear God saying to America: “You are too arrogant! If you don't change your

ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power"

www.radioproject.org/sound/King10.mp3

[plachon]

Oh come on plachon, your type never comes out and admit what you really feel, but it doesn't take much to read between the lines and figure out which side you are in in the War against Terrorism. However, your good friend pepe, did slip yesterday:

Do you know why you were targetted on 9-11 ?

Because you also deserved it.  ...You will never understand.

and again today:

So did the Pentagon deserved to be targetted ? Obviously yes

As far as lies, here's just one, but I don't feel like cutting and pasting ALL day!

The US has an illegitimate President running the country

Start spinning dim-wit!

Come on Georgie! Is that the best you can do? In fact, you chose one of the most objectivably verifiable facts I've written, wrt. Bush's lack of a mandate to govern by the people and for the people.

And if I haven't been making my feelings absolutely crystal clear what i think about US foreign policy and the present illegitimate regime in power, then I'm Kermit the Frog and you're Colonel Saunders. Just cos you happen to like the guy and want to see everything in black and white terms,then it doesn't legitimise some basic underlying truths, which are even being spelled out by NEw York Times columnists these days (see Bob Herbert in Tuesday's B. Post for details).

You're scratching at thin air more and more G-P!

[Georgie-Porgie]

I think it is rather obvious who is scratching at thin air plachon (really scratching at thin air). You have been told numerous times, by numerous people, that America is a Republic and that George W. Bush is the legitimate President.

As far as New York Times columnists questioning George Bush, what planet are you from? Number one, The New York Times is a liberal paper that doesn't like George Bush. Number two, ALL newspapers in America present columnists with opposing points of view.

Are you sure that you are British? Are you sure that you aren't just some reject from the Polish Communist Party?.

[Guest IT Manager]

In the days of yore, two boys decided to throw stones at each other when playing in the sandpit.

"My Daddy has a better job than yours"

"Oh yeah, well my daddy has a bigger car than yours"

"Oh yeah well... and so it went on.

In the rest of the park, children stood together talking rationally about the pro's and con's of this toy or that, debated the value of ones' gift over the other, but always rational, always in good humour.

One day a new teacher came to the school. He was desperately keen to be fair and to give everyone a chance to play in the sandpit, without risking being hit by rocks thrown by the two naughty boys. At the same time, he knew the naughty boys were quite intelligent, they just had a personality conflict, which erupted in the sandpit.

A lot of kids thought the new teacher was too strict, but most of them understood that if you throw rocks hard enough people get hurt. So the teacher sent the two naughty boys to the wood-shed for 14 days. Some people thought that was too strict, but the teacher said, "No I like it when everyone is nice, and everyone gets a turn to play without being afraid of being hit with a badly aimed rock".

He made a rule that kids couldn't throw rocks any where but the sandpit and he put a fence around it, so kids who wanted to throw rocks could go there. He called it the bear pit and said very few rules that aren't anywhere else. Discuss issues nicely, don't attack people or their personalities. The joy of humanity is in the differences, not in the sameness.

After a while the sandpit evolved into something good, where occasionally the kids threw rocks, but usually quietly discussed the size of the rocks and what they could do if used properly.

Membrane and Butterfly got a good whack, but after that they came back and were more like the other kids, and less like Loi Kroh drunks swinging verbal haymakers at the other kids.

Quality is what www.thaivisa.com is about. A quality place to share views with others of like or different opinion, doesn't matter, just the fact that I can make a comment and not have some hairy fist slam into me because my view differs radically from those of the others, makes this place what it is.

Ladies and Gentlemen, you're on show to the world and to your fellows here. Every time you let go a haymaker, someone, somewhere reflects on it, as an assault on his or her opinion, and so they don't get their turn to play, because of the fear of a verbal repercussion.

Please remember the other forum. The one that essentially died to its' thousands of users, because of 2 people.

That will not happen here.

[Georgie-Porgie]

######, I do agree with what you've posted above, and as usual, it's your web-site. You can do what you want.

However, some of us (Americans) have said many times that we don't want to read all this Anti-American crap, over and over, every day.

Just think about, if for some reason, all of the posts suddenly tore down Australia. I don't think it would take long for you to tire of it, no matter what your politics are.

As far as us understanding the other point of view, do Membrane, SoCal, Jeepz or Boon Mee seem stupid to you? These are all obviously educated people who have heard the other side, many time, before. We are not convinced. We are not even tempted to be convinced. We have already made up our own minds.

So have the other side.

If you want a Bear-pit where we rip each other apart for your amusement, every single day, you have it already.

If you don't, don't lecture us about "playing nice", get rid of it, and turn this into what it is supposed to be: A Web-site about Thailand!

[Boon Mee]

<And if I haven't been making my feelings absolutely crystal clear what i think about US foreign policy and the present illegitimate regime in power, then I'm Kermit the Frog and you're Colonel Saunders>

Man, give it a break! #1, the Supreme Court made the election legimate - get OVER it and #2 it's Col. SANDERS. Believe they even have them in your country - like some of that "Way-Out-Woodbine" you've been smoking, Plachon.

Boon Mee

[Axel]

Some wise words IT M. I would wish that everybody sticks to an intelligent debate. Seems some guys come up with cuss-words, name calling or just abuse. This is usually done when the one or other is running out of arguments.

The bear pit is running chiefly around G.W.B. who, I pray, has nothing to do with Thailand.

It gives quite an interesting insight into the mentality of the people concerned. To those, who like him, my respect or in other words, everybody deserves the leader she or he voted for. To those who don't like him, well you cannot win all. Believe it is impossible for either side to change a prefixed opinion by even one percent-point. Wouldn't it be worthwhile to at least understand that other people do have different opinions?

Myself cannot vote for or against him, so no comments on him, as long as he does not bother me. Elected or not he is the legitimate President of the USA and that's where he belongs until the people of that country decide to vote for another one.

He is, however, NOT elected by any other country in this world, so don't let him lose on the world, keep him within the borders of the USA where he can do whatever pleases him.

And go on discussing, it gives me a good chuckle most of the time.

[Guest IT Manager]

Both of you make good points. I didn't put anyone in the woodshed, but if it gets too personal, I like to let it be known that it is a BEAR PIT and the rules are more relaxed as far as interpersonal debate, I just feel it would be better if the three of you spent more time concentrating on the issues at hand and less sticking jack-boots into each other.

As you both inferred, the Bear Pit is here, for this.

For the record, I usually only pop in for a bit of a browse on Sundays. Rest of the week I do the other topics because they are more interesting.

[davidm]

Fine words are what one would expect from a preacher, and Martin Luther King made a very lucid and rational speech with objectives every civilised person and state should aspire to. Unfortunately, he did not present a solution to terrorism by people who are not prepared to negotiate in good faith, are not rational and who seek to kill all those who will not bend to their will. September 11, 2001 is just a prelude to what Al Quaeda and other Muslim terrorists wish to inflict. Brotherly love will not protect us from Osama Bin Laden and his followers.

[sbk]

Fine words are what one would expect from a preacher, and Martin Luther King made a very lucid and rational speech with objectives every civilised person and state should aspire to. Unfortunately, he did not present a solution to terrorism by people who are not prepared to negotiate in good faith, are not rational and who seek to kill all those who will not bend to their will. September 11, 2001 is just a prelude to what Al Quaeda and other Muslim terrorists wish to inflict. Brotherly love will not protect us from Osama Bin Laden and his followers

Perhaps you should study your US history. The history of the black American has been one of lynchings, church bombings and cross burnings. All by 'righteous' Christians. The KKK are mostly fundamentalist Christians. I suggest you re-read the part about the civil rights movement in the 60's. I also suggest you remember what ultimately happened to MLK jr and why the USA honors his memory on Jan 14. People who perpetrate these kind of atrocities are no more rational than Muslims simply because they are white. Gandhi certainly had something similar to contend with and his solution worked fairly well. What we lack today is a peaceful charismatic leader. Sad, but I suspect it is a sign of the times.

[Georgie-Porgie]

I also suggest you remember what ultimately happened to MLK Jr. and why the USA honors his memory on Jan 14. People who perpetrate these kind of atrocities are no more rational than Muslims simply because they are white. Gandhi certainly had something similar to contend with and his solution worked fairly well.

Some food for thought:

Would you disagree that the real reason that that US Government honors Martin Luther King is in order to make people feel that one can change the system peacefully? In other words, to keep radicals from being radical?

Also, many people feel that Gandhi would have simply been smashed into the street if he had not been dealing with a moral, white, Christian nation with a sense of fair-play; If he had to contend with Nazis or other true Fascists? What do you think?

[Guest IT Manager]

Also, many people feel that Gandhi would have simply been smashed into the street if he had not been dealing with a moral, white, Christian nation with a sense of fair-play; If he had to contend with Nazis or other true Fascists? What do you think?

I may be quite thick, but I sense a certain background problem.

I assumed we were discussing (in Ghandi) the elder, Mahatma. I was under the impression, that he was in fact an Indian chap, leading Indians.

This IMHO means that he was in fact leading brown, hindu chaps as opposed to white xtians. Or are you referring to the other side of the fence, England, as in "dealing with"? It isn't very clear.

What am I missing here?

[sbk]

Georgie said:

Also, many people feel that Gandhi would have simply been smashed into the street if he had not been dealing with a moral, white, Christian nation with a sense of fair-play; If he had to contend with Nazis or other true Fascists? What do you think?

Probably the same thing that happened to MLK jr, who was dealing with white Christians. My point here being, radicals are radicals, regardless of race, religion, creed, or color. I am not particularly a big fan of Bush, but then neither am I a big fan of Al-Qaeda. Both are wrong. Who was wronger? Who's to know? Depends on your perspective. Anyone can use violence as a response and come up with some justification for their actions, it takes a courageous man or woman to use peace.

And just as a BTW, check your Indian history, how many Indians were beaten into the ground by British forces?

[Georgie-Porgie]

Also, many people feel that Gandhi would have simply been smashed into the street if he had not been dealing with a moral, white, Christian nation with a sense of fair-play; If he had to contend with Nazis or other true Fascists? What do you  think?

I may be quite thick, but I sense a certain background problem.

I assumed we were discussing (in Ghandi) the elder, Mahatma. I was under the impression, that he was in fact an Indian chap, leading Indians.

This IMHO means that he was in fact leading brown, hindu chaps as opposed to white xtians. Or are you referring to the other side of the fence, England, as in "dealing with"? It isn't very clear.

What am I missing here?

Sorry, not very clearly written.

Mahatma Gandhi was trying to get the British to leave India by using peaceful means, and he succeeded, but some historians believe that he would have failed dismally if dealing with a less moral nation, say Nazi Germany. His peaceful tactics would have been useless against a nation without a conscience, calling into question the usefulness of non-violent protest and revolution against true oppressors. Do you think that Gandhi's (or Martin Luther King's) techniques would have defeated the Nazis?

[Membrane]

Membrane and Butterfly got a good whack, but after that they came back and were more like the other kids, and less like Loi Kroh drunks swinging verbal haymakers at the other kids.

Membrane was always "like the other kids". He just had to kick and fight back with Butterfly and--oops! sorry--"the other kids", because no one else was willing to stand up to them. And Membrane got "whacked" by the teacher and told to stand in the corner for a few days. But that's OK, because he knew it was worth it, in order to draw attention to what some of "the other kids" were doing (sometimes that even included what the teacher was doing)!

Membrane also knew he had to stand up to "the other kids" so that eventually the teachers--who had ignored what the kids were doing for far too long--finally woke up from their nap and finally created the Bear Pit, (after Membrane had suggested that to the teachers quite a while earlier). Finally, through Membrane's persistence, some of the teachers finally woke up and took action.

[singa-traz]

Does South Africa make it in the "moral, white, Christian nation with a sense of fair-play" category ???

Nelson Mandela got rid of Apartheid ... not totally violent free, and a bit tainted with communist ...

"moral, white, Christian nation with a sense of fair-play" ... a nation of perfect gentleman !

[Jeepz]

GP ~

Interesting comment about Ghandi and what it would have been like if he had been marching against the Nazi's. As it was, sometimes it would have been hard to tell the British apart from the Hun's, so to speak. General Dyer machined gunned down roughly 1500 peaceful demonstrators at one go during that period. It caused a bit of a stir, so he was retired (with pay). He also got a pretty nice bonus, even Kipling donated to it.

But faced with the likes of Goring & Himmler, the outcome would have undoubtedly been much bloodier. The morality of nations is rarely spotless. British, American, German or others. Many (or actually most) have their dark moments. I feel pretty much the same way about the race issue too. No particular race gets a "get out of jail" card from having committed atrocities along the way. And each has moments of greatness, compassion, and brilliance.

How would MLK done if he'd been faced with Vlad the Impaler? Or how would the suffragette movement's followers done if they'd been faced with the recruiters of the Japanese Imperial Army hunting "comfort girls" during WWII? Alternative History can be thought provoking. But real life provides so many actual examples that it is almost unnecessary.

p.s. Before I get flamed for using "huns" as a reference for Germans, the Kaiser was the individual that made the original reference.

Jeepz

[plachon]

I also suggest you remember what ultimately happened to MLK Jr. and why the USA honors his memory on Jan 14. People who perpetrate these kind of atrocities are no more rational than Muslims simply because they are white. Gandhi certainly had something similar to contend with and his solution worked fairly well.

Some food for thought:

Would you disagree that the real reason that that US Government honors Martin Luther King is in order to make people feel that one can change the system peacefully? In other words, to keep radicals from being radical?

Also, many people feel that Gandhi would have simply been smashed into the street if he had not been dealing with a moral, white, Christian nation with a sense of fair-play; If he had to contend with Nazis or other true Fascists? What do you think?

You're letting your latent racism shine through again man! Those 3 terms could just as easily apply to Nazi Germany's self image at the time i.e. Aryan nation cleansing itself of "otherness". The thing that seperated Germany from Britain, France and several other waning colonial nations at the time was not so much huge differences in basic feelings of "superiority" over the rest, but was more the rise of an individual leader who appealed to all those basic, latent racist instincts and played them to their full. Hence, there was the vilification of Jews, gypsies, gays, etc. even before the death camps were conceived as the "final solution". Pretty much as we've been seeing in US with Muslims, "lefties" (one of your favourite taunts), and anyone who doesn't happen to fit into the mainstream corporate model. I'm not for a minute suggesting that death camps are round the corner in the US, but lack of respect for human rights, democracy and justice are already a feature of the US foreign policy evidenced by many points the so-called "anti-Americans" in this Forum have been repeatedly raising, while you repeatedly ignore. And by the way, explain some of the differences between anti-globalisation and neo-colonialism protesters getting "smashed in the streets" in Seattle, Genoa, Davos, etc., and Gandhi's salt marches, anti-colonialism protests 60 - 80 years ago.

And by the way IT Man, I love it when you speak in riddles! Better than AA Milne! And i think there were sand pits and bears in that too, if i'm not much mistaken?

[Axel]

p.s. Before I get flamed for using "huns" as a reference for Germans, the Kaiser was the individual that made the original reference.

Jeepz

No, you will not be flamed for this remark, but perhaps to eat a bowl of sour 'kraut'

would do. The Kaiser of course was wrong, and btw the only 'Kaiser' I accept is Franz Beckenbauer who got the nick-name while playing football (soccer for other believers) in New York.

[Georgie-Porgie]

plachon, have you been taking your Alzheimer's medicine?

plachon Posted: Mon 2004-01-26, 02:05:10

You're letting your latent racism shine through again man!

I'll let KevinN answer for me:

KevinN Posted: Mon 2004-01-26, 04:05:16

Do not pay too much attn. everything that some one disagrees with they will call you RACIST anymore,it is one of the most mis-used words in the english language.

More "thoughts" from plachon:

plachon Posted: Mon 2004-01-26, 02:05:10

Hence, there was the vilification of Jews, gypsies, gays, etc. even before the death camps were conceived as the "final solution". Pretty much as we've been seeing in US with Muslims, "lefties" (one of your favourite taunts), and anyone who doesn't happen to fit into the mainstream corporate model.

Yeah, sure, America is just like Nazi Germany! Why don't you look at your own posts for one moment plachon. You don't seem to be trying to make any type of sense anymore. All you are doing now is blabbering.

For example:

And by the way, explain some of the differences between anti-globalization and neo-colonialism protesters getting "smashed in the streets" in Seattle, Genoa, Davos, etc., and Gandhi's salt marches, anti-colonialism protests 60 - 80 years ago.

Yeah, so what?" What does that have to with whether Gandhi's tactics would have worked against the Nazis? Against Japan? What is your point?

Where are adjan jb and ######. They are lefties with brains that are still functioning.

[pepe]

Thank you very Georgie-Porgie on behalf of Adjan Jb (we're friends) but then you forgot me...

[adjan jb]

Where are adjan jb and ######. They are lefties with brains that are still functioning.

Thank you very much Georgie-Porgie.

But I'm not a "lefty", I'm an Anarchist.

[Georgie-Porgie]

I guess that this will teach me to be careful what I ask for. I might get it.

By the way, I was an Anarchist too...when I was 17.

[Boon Mee]

That's right Georgie - like Winston Churchill said: "If you're not a Liberal at age 18 you've got no heart. And if you're not a conservative at age 40, you've got no Head"

Boon Mee