Must...Resist....Buying..........Condo....

[ccterry]

As mentioned in another thread, I bought a condo in 2004 and just sold it for double what I paid, before factoring in THB appreciation. I am happy I didn't listen to naysayers.

So whos the clever one? The buyer or the seller. Or is it, as you are suggesting you are both clever. You bought some years ago and sold recently, are you clever? Or is the person you sold to clever for buying your condo at the price he paid? Is thai property a special asset that has extra-ordinary returns forever? What exactly are you saying?

I'm saying I'm happy with the investment I made and am glad I didn't listen to those who called me foolish.

Perhaps the new owner will make even more if he sells it after a few years, who knows?

Im glad 2004=2012. Happy you cleared that up for us. You shouldnt have sold your condo. You should have held it for another 8 years then surely you would have easily sold it for 4 times what you paid for it or am I being sarcastic

[NewlyMintedThai]

As mentioned in another thread, I bought a condo in 2004 and just sold it for double what I paid, before factoring in THB appreciation. I am happy I didn't listen to naysayers.

So whos the clever one? The buyer or the seller. Or is it, as you are suggesting you are both clever. You bought some years ago and sold recently, are you clever? Or is the person you sold to clever for buying your condo at the price he paid? Is thai property a special asset that has extra-ordinary returns forever? What exactly are you saying?

I'm saying I'm happy with the investment I made and am glad I didn't listen to those who called me foolish.

Perhaps the new owner will make even more if he sells it after a few years, who knows?

Yes, it often makes sense to ignore others. But just because you double your money in the last 10 years doesn't mean that prices in general will double in the next 10 years. Also, yours could have been a special case due to location or some other reason. I'm not knocking you at all, as you did well. but that's no reason for everyone else to buy in the current overpriced market.

Of course not.

I'm just trying to refute those who say no foreigner should ever invest in Thailand. There are a lot of those people here, as there were when I bought.

[NewlyMintedThai]

As mentioned in another thread, I bought a condo in 2004 and just sold it for double what I paid, before factoring in THB appreciation. I am happy I didn't listen to naysayers.

So whos the clever one? The buyer or the seller. Or is it, as you are suggesting you are both clever. You bought some years ago and sold recently, are you clever? Or is the person you sold to clever for buying your condo at the price he paid? Is thai property a special asset that has extra-ordinary returns forever? What exactly are you saying?

I'm saying I'm happy with the investment I made and am glad I didn't listen to those who called me foolish.

Perhaps the new owner will make even more if he sells it after a few years, who knows?

Im glad 2004=2012. Happy you cleared that up for us. You shouldnt have sold your condo. You should have held it for another 8 years then surely you would have easily sold it for 4 times what you paid for it or am I being sarcastic

You could be right or you could be wrong. That's the point: no one ever knows, and if you always listen to naysayers you'll never get anywhere.

[ccterry]

So NewlyMintedThai just to clarify do you think it is a good time to buy at current prices given that you have just sold making a better then 100% return after 8 years? A simple yes I think it is a good time to buy or no I think it is not a good time to buy will do the trick.

[MEL1]

It really does depend upon where you buy, for the reasons you buy, and what projections for where you buy are relevant to resale.

My wife bought a condo, with my help of course in finishing the payments, 6 years ago for a meagre 240,000 Baht in Prawet, near to Seacon Sq, as Paradise was being completed. Prawet is also a majot chemical factory producer, with many farang coming for 1 or 2 year contracts, and not having 1 iota of condo rental costs have been happy to oblige with upto 5K a month, for a single room condo, although it does have a separate w.c. with BATH!

The current same size new condos flying up in Prawet are also empty, yet selling for 800,000 upwards. Our condo is now valued at 400,000, and yet, fully paid off, is paying fine income whilst still increasing in value. Not time to sell yet, and we haven't tried, but my projection is that in a sole year's time we will easily sell for 500,000. Now that's decent investment and return, even if on a small scale!

-mel.

[NewlyMintedThai]

So NewlyMintedThai just to clarify do you think it is a good time to buy at current prices given that you have just sold making a better then 100% return after 8 years? A simple yes I think it is a good time to buy or no I think it is not a good time to buy will do the trick.

dunno

[soundman]

Posts have been removed for bickering.

Please try to keep it civil.

[MEL1]

Posts have been removed for bickering.

Please try to keep it civil.

Appreciated.

[TommoPhysicist]

So far we have had 1 person on the thread making a real BAHT profit from buying and selling a condo.

That doesn't seem a very promising start.

[w11guy]

So far we have had 1 person on the thread making a real BAHT profit from buying and selling a condo.

That doesn't seem a very promising start.

But we haven't had anyone who's made a loss either. Most haven't bought, so we can't really say whether that was good or bad for them.

But to answer the original question, the OP shouldn't buy because if he sells at a loss he wouldn't be able to afford that loss. Also he'd be in a financially bad place if he couldn't rent it. Both these events could easily happen, so he shouldn't take the risk. Also, why buy now if he's moving to Africa? Why not wait until he comes back? It seems like he wants to risk all his money on a condo in a place he's leaving. That just seems like madness to me.

If he can get a real bargain, then maybe not so bad. But he can't really rely on being able to rent it out. There are thousands of empty condos that can't be rented out, so it's a bit hit and miss.

I'm just not sure why he's so eager to buy.

For others it depends on their personal situation. If you want to spend 5% of your net worth on a condo and then have to sell at a loss, it doesn't really matter. But if you're putting your life savings into it I think it would be pure madness. But it's up to each individual to decide for themselves.

[TommoPhysicist]

So far we have had 1 person on the thread making a real BAHT profit from buying and selling a condo.

That doesn't seem a very promising start.

But we haven't had anyone who's made a loss either. Most haven't bought, so we can't really say whether that was good or bad for them.

Many people who make a loss won't admit it.

Many who fail to sell their property, convince themselves they haven't made a loss.

Many who own a depreciating asset, fail to acknowledge that fact, or are in denial.

Many don't understand how hard it is to sell a second hand condo in Thailand.

The only way to tell if a profit is to be made, is from those who actually bought and sold, only one so far.

Edited April 1, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[MEL1]

So far we have had 1 person on the thread making a real BAHT profit from buying and selling a condo.

That doesn't seem a very promising start.

But we haven't had anyone who's made a loss either. Most haven't bought, so we can't really say whether that was good or bad for them.

Many people who make a loss won't admit it.

Many who fail to sell their property, convince themselves they haven't made a loss.

Many who own a depreciating asset, fail to acknowledge that fact, or are in denial.

Many don't understand how hard it is to sell a second hand condo in Thailand.

The only way to tell if a profit is to be made, is from those who actually bought and sold, only one so far.

I think you are missing a basic point here.

If all of your assets are in 1 basket, regarding a single property such as a single condo, then forget investing.

If you have 5% of your assets to play with, and win or lose at a pitch and toss, and it has no impedence on your net worth, then by all means play.

You write as if you would walk into Siam Paragon and ask, "How much is that?"

If you need to do that, then by all means don't stake a play in property.

For those of us who can play, ignoring your derogatory comment which was removed, then why shouldn't we have a play?

I made a simple gesture of a little I had invested in, and your reaction was 'get ripped off by all means.'

It seems paramount to yourself that investing in property, be it long term or short term is negligent.

Tell me that it isn't in any major Capital city of the world. If one can play the market, with no essential deficit to one's own, then play it!

Quite often, you would be surprised, and as I posted originally, it purely depends upon where and how much you invest and what projected return you want. Properties are also tax-havens..... but then you wouldn't entertain that idea.. could you?

-mel.

[w11guy]

So far we have had 1 person on the thread making a real BAHT profit from buying and selling a condo.

That doesn't seem a very promising start.

But we haven't had anyone who's made a loss either. Most haven't bought, so we can't really say whether that was good or bad for them.

Many people who make a loss won't admit it.

Many who fail to sell their property, convince themselves they haven't made a loss.

Many who own a depreciating asset, fail to acknowledge that fact, or are in denial.

Many don't understand how hard it is to sell a second hand condo in Thailand.

The only way to tell if a profit is to be made, is from those who actually bought and sold, only one so far.

Very good points. I know one condo that was on sale for 5.4M. It was on the market for a year and didn't sell. So the owner put the price up to 5.7M and it's been on the market for another year. The owner is probably pleased that they 'made' an extra 0.3M in a year. I'm expecting the price to go up to 6M soon. LOL.

[PattayaPhom]

Let me think about this:

1. Red shirts, yellow shirts, multi-colored shirts and no shirts

2. With a retirement visa, the immigration department reserves the right to re-asses my permission to stay each and every year

3. Surplus of condo units yet overpriced

4. Poor construction

5. Bombs going off in the south

6. Restrictive ownership laws

7. Global warming threatening to have Bangkok under water in the future

8. Last years floods showing government inability to govern

9. Thai people's unwillingness to be lead by government .... i.e. destroying dikes

10. Corruption at every level of society ... for example the Police have license to print money

11. Traffic and pollution in the city is only going to get worse

12. Very very poor resale market or infrastructure to list and sell properties. MLS listings are unheard of here.

13. Very cheap rentals available

14. Ability to rent great places and run whenever a major problem arises like sinking foundation

15. I am going to stop here because my coffee is getting cold. But you get the idea .... Buying is a really bad idea !!!!!

This really made me laugh, some just dont get the idea of buying .....so lets look at the flip side and think about buying in London

Damp in almost every building

Parking problems, cant just pull up anywhere

Probably get burgaled at least once a year.

Way way overpriced property

Council tax at 7,000 Baht a month minimum

Gun crime and shootings, stabbings, muggings in broad daylight on an hourly basis.

Crap transport sytstem over 100 years old

Need we go on

[ccterry]

Let me think about this:

1. Red shirts, yellow shirts, multi-colored shirts and no shirts

2. With a retirement visa, the immigration department reserves the right to re-asses my permission to stay each and every year

3. Surplus of condo units yet overpriced

4. Poor construction

5. Bombs going off in the south

6. Restrictive ownership laws

7. Global warming threatening to have Bangkok under water in the future

8. Last years floods showing government inability to govern

9. Thai people's unwillingness to be lead by government .... i.e. destroying dikes

10. Corruption at every level of society ... for example the Police have license to print money

11. Traffic and pollution in the city is only going to get worse

12. Very very poor resale market or infrastructure to list and sell properties. MLS listings are unheard of here.

13. Very cheap rentals available

14. Ability to rent great places and run whenever a major problem arises like sinking foundation

15. I am going to stop here because my coffee is getting cold. But you get the idea .... Buying is a really bad idea !!!!!

This really made me laugh, some just dont get the idea of buying .....so lets look at the flip side and think about buying in London

Damp in almost every building

Parking problems, cant just pull up anywhere

Probably get burgaled at least once a year.

Way way overpriced property

Council tax at 7,000 Baht a month minimum

Gun crime and shootings, stabbings, muggings in broad daylight on an hourly basis.

Crap transport sytstem over 100 years old

Need we go on

I thought Bushwackers comments were the most intelligent post on the topic but hey what do I know lol.

[TommoPhysicist]

For those of us who can play, ignoring your derogatory comment which was removed, then why shouldn't we have a play?

I made no derogatory comment, I merely pointed out that it was not a good idea to pronounce an investment 'profitable' until that profit has been achieved. Also I would not want to own any immovable assets in a country where I have no right to reside.

Nor would I want to own any condo in a city where foreigners buy at a higher price than locals, developers are constantly building, and the general population prefer to buy 'new'.

If you look at the one person on this thread who has made a profit, being a Thai makes the risk significantly less.

My wife with her house, 25 rai of farmland and 50 rai of forest is also in an entirely different position, as a Thai, and I am more than happy to live there with her.

[NewlyMintedThai]

For those of us who can play, ignoring your derogatory comment which was removed, then why shouldn't we have a play?

I made no derogatory comment, I merely pointed out that it was not a good idea to pronounce an investment 'profitable' until that profit has been achieved. Also I would not want to own any immovable assets in a country where I have no right to reside.

Nor would I want to own any condo in a city where foreigners buy at a higher price than locals, developers are constantly building, and the general population prefer to buy 'new'.

If you look at the one person on this thread who has made a profit, being a Thai makes the risk significantly less.

My wife with her house, 25 rai of farmland and 50 rai of forest is also in an entirely different position, as a Thai, and I am more than happy to live there with her.

I wasn't a Thai when I bought either of my two condos.

Foreigners don't pay more than Thais for real estate.

[TommoPhysicist]

Foreigners don't pay more than Thais for real estate.

We will have to disagree then, from what I have seen many foreigners are very foolish with money and are often charged much higher prices for all sorts of things.

Edited April 1, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[NewlyMintedThai]

Foreigners don't pay more than Thais for real estate.

We will have to disagree then, from what I have seen many foreigners are very foolish with money and are often charged much higher prices for all sorts of things.

Good God, you do like to imagine yourself the victim don't you?

I can assure you that new condo developers don't give nudge-nudge-wink-wink price breaks to Thais. That is simply preposterous. The price advertised is the price; anyone can attempt to bargain a discount and all they care about is the color of your cash -- not your skin.

And there is no landlord on this earth who would be willing to give someone a break on a second-hand condo sale because they happen to be of the same nationality. They will sell to the first person who comes up with the cash they want, period end of story.

You are making a completely wild assumption based on zero knowledge -- so yes, we will have to disagree.

[TommoPhysicist]

Good God, you do like to imagine yourself the victim don't you?

I don't imagine myself a victim at all, I am more than happy with my lot in life.

But I do see many other foreigners being charged more than locals.

Hold on, maybe I should be more precise and say 'used to see', as there are no foreigners at all where I live.

I am happy to leave all the investing, and real estate deals to you city slickers.

[NewlyMintedThai]

More for what? A coconut at the market or a ticket to see a dolphin show?

And from that you extrapolate a Noble or Sansiri or some other condo developer having secret, specially-inflated price lists for foreigners?

I'm speechless.

[ccterry]

More for what? A coconut at the market or a ticket to see a dolphin show?

And from that you extrapolate a Noble or Sansiri or some other condo developer having secret, specially-inflated price lists for foreigners?

I'm speechless.

For a man/woman who has no opinion on the original posters question you have how shall we say a lot of opnions. Trolling at its best oh wait well done on you sir I have just seen the date that explains it all then.

[NewlyMintedThai]

More for what? A coconut at the market or a ticket to see a dolphin show?

And from that you extrapolate a Noble or Sansiri or some other condo developer having secret, specially-inflated price lists for foreigners?

I'm speechless.

For a man/woman who has no opinion on the original posters question you have how shall we say a lot of opnions. Trolling at its best oh wait well done on you sir I have just seen the date that explains it all then.

Do you have something to contribute to the conversation, or not?

[djayz]

Foreigners don't pay more than Thais for real estate.

We will have to disagree then, from what I have seen many foreigners are very foolish with money and are often charged much higher prices for all sorts of things.

I didn't pay any more than a Thai for my condo... really don't know what you're talking about. It might happen from time to time, but it most certainly isn't that common (in the building industry at least).

[beachyman]

Foreigners don't pay more than Thais for real estate.

We will have to disagree then, from what I have seen many foreigners are very foolish with money and are often charged much higher prices for all sorts of things.

I didn't pay any more than a Thai for my condo... really don't know what you're talking about. It might happen from time to time, but it most certainly isn't that common (in the building industry at least).

Agreed. Look, for any half way decent condo (publicly traded company developed) they release a bundle of documents at the first general meeting or right before that lists what everybody has paid for their condo, their sinking fee contribution and the size of their property/relative to the entire building. Find a good translation service if the juristic person office don't speak thai and make sure all documents (juristic person, development, building docs) are all translated certified for your knowledge and for resale.

As for all the "never buy in Thailand" and "Thailand made me a lot of money" OP and everybody you need to realize YOU are the one who can best gauge whether 1) you have the financial flexibility to invest and 2) if your circumstances 3) the particular investment make it a sound investment. Trusting strangers, most who don't want you to succeed and have no idea what they are talking about simply quoting newspapers, is not a good strategy. Your better off reading up and consulting with people in person. Easier to gauge if they know what they are talking about.

Best strategy, IMO, figure out you exact strategy (budget, how much you plan on using, location, what type of renters, etc) then go visit agents, developers and drive around. Don't pull the trigger until you do your due diligence on the juristic office if condo or moo baan if you go the house route. Keep in mind renting is no piece of cake you either need to be there or use an agent many which are not reliable or honest. For cheap places it's almost better not to have the wear and tear since the monthly fee is so low. For example my latest crash pad is only 9000 a year in maintenance (no big lobby, only security, cleaning and juristic to pay for) so it makes sense I keep it open for when I'm in town (about 3months a year). I can also toss the keys to some friends and family when they visit.

I only know the bangkok and Phuket markets since those i have invested and made money in. Many other markets are different, ive moved on from phuket and i would never invest near pattaya but to each their own.

Realize with any real estate your sell horizon should be at least 4-5 years, I consider more like 6-7 to ride out bad times to sell (forex, turbulence,etc)

Good luck.

[MEL1]

For those of us who can play, ignoring your derogatory comment which was removed, then why shouldn't we have a play?

I made no derogatory comment, I merely pointed out that it was not a good idea to pronounce an investment 'profitable' until that profit has been achieved. Also I would not want to own any immovable assets in a country where I have no right to reside.

Nor would I want to own any condo in a city where foreigners buy at a higher price than locals, developers are constantly building, and the general population prefer to buy 'new'.

If you look at the one person on this thread who has made a profit, being a Thai makes the risk significantly less.

My wife with her house, 25 rai of farmland and 50 rai of forest is also in an entirely different position, as a Thai, and I am more than happy to live there with her.

You said I WOULD be ripped off, but little do you know my circumstances or my time here also, and I have my happy lot too!

Forgetting that, how about the profitable current value before resale? If you think it a myth, then fine. That's your end of the stick, and still no bones of contention. However, the stats are correct, my wife is educated (Master's degree and Ajarn as University), and also has her lot of farm fields and forest that will eventually become assets for building, but prob not in our time.

IF you have no right to reside here, but know darned well you will be here for the long term forseeable future, then all good. Same as me too. So initial judgements maybe capped now, given your consent, or we just go on to argue the laws, by-laws and unknowns of farang that you perceive have been here 4 or 5 months? We're not all stupid Herr Tom.

-mel.

[rick75]

NewlyMintedThai, could you give Us all a brief run down on the property you sold? area, number of bedrooms, m2. I for one would greatly appreciate that insight.

Also in regards to Thai's vs Falang and prices, It has been my experience that condo's that are part of the foreign ownership quota will have a higher buy price.....At least in Baan Sathorn that was the case.

[RudieTheFoodie]

Well I've just had a punt.

60m2 - 2 bed

30k/m2

Ploenchit BTS 500m

[Grawburg]

OP here. One of th better threads if I do say so myself. To answer some of the questions asked of OP.

I am moving to Africa because of my job, not because I want to...but it's a good job so I'll take the two year contract with hopes of coming back to se Asia. I don't have a home in the US and my family and I have grown quite fond of bkk including making several good friends who are living here permenantly. We like the people, food, culture, etc... It would be nice to have a home to come to on vacations and between contracts. Perhaps some of the reason we've been talking about buying is nostalgia, but that's not a good reason to buy. I've been accused of being careless sometimes, but not that careless.

I don't need to buy right away and I am not interested in being upside down in a condo after a couple of years. From what people say, renting is hit or miss...but no guarantee I'll even cover the mortgage.

I think I'll hold and wait. As infrequently as we will be back during the year, it makes more sense to rent for the few weeks to a month we'd be here. Perhaps the bubble will burst and perhaps the US dollar will strengthen (or not). I'll wait and see. Thanks for everyone's input!

[NewlyMintedThai]

I think you've made a good decision. But I've been wrong before (many, many times!).