Thailand Really Likes Old Western Guys

[kerryk]

Aren't grandparents cherished and loved by their children and grandchildren in any country or culture the world over? What's the point of this thread?

Absolutely not the case. Canada and most of the western world warehouse their old in retirement and nursing homes, and then play a waiting game to see how long it will take for the will to go through probate. One poster mentioned being called gramps at forty. I watched a guy my age (early 60s) talking to a twenty something girl in a bar in Canada, the bartender yelled at him "Hey old guy, leave the girls alone!" I don't know how old you are but, the OP hit the nail on the head here.

Very accurate. Old folks are warehoused in nursing homes in the West taken care of by the lowest paid and skilled people in the work force.

Try visiting one. They smell like piss. Not just the toilet but the whole place. I don't know how people stand the smell.

[Singlebarrel]

But are the older visitors fleeced with more respect?

Of course

I agree

[473geo]

Some interesting points. Just for record, yes, I do believe everyone should be respected by default unless there is reason to the contrary. My comment that you quoted, perhaps didn't make that clear.

However, with respect to your points about family, I cannot fully agree. I do agree, obviously, with the historical point, but I do believe that at some point we might tend to evolve past that understanding of obligation. What of a mother and father who brought a child into a cruel world, ill-prepared to raise it to happiness? What of parents who raised a child only as a secondary task to advancing their careers, say, moving around frequently and ripping their child from friendships that he/she had developed. I think you get my point without too many silly examples, but these questions are real. Just because you popped me out into this ridiculous existence, it does not mean you have done a good job and have earned default, unwavering support from me. Just because my mother had a mother who I happen to have been acquainted with does not mean it is my obligation to her, my grandmother, as she ails in old age. On the contrary, I expect her/them/anyone to make arrangements (if they truly care for me) to prevent me from having to be burdened with their suffering. I expect the same of myself.

But, this is only my opinion, of course. Most don't see it this way, for sure.

I can't agree or disagree with your opinion about what would transpire if, say, more people thought like I did or if the state or some other entity tried to replace the space that family has historically occupied because it's far too complicated to form a solid hypothesis about, but I can tell what I hope would happen. I would hope that people begin to believe personal responsibility to oneself is more important than the selfish, self-centered love and bonding that relies on mutual fear. I hope that makes sense. I've had a couple of beers...

EDIT:

I'm going to think on your comment about the West's reliance on law and the state and how that may have influenced those societies. I've never thought about that angle. Thanks

You are welcome to your opinion, I can only wonder at your upbringing to produce your opinion

My parents worked extremely hard and long hours to ensure their 5 children had a good education and start in life. In this project they were supported by their parents. The most vociferous of my uncles persuaded the family to house my granmother in a 'care' home for her last 3 months of life.......it was a sad undignified end for such a tolerant supportive generous kind lady.

Perhaps in your logical mind you will understand why my siblings and I did not allow this to happen to our own mother, indeed through ten years of struggle and major illness she was cared for in her own home. Had we followed your advice she would have been left to provide her own care. She was more than capable, and financially secure enough to do just that.......

You can try to explain the fact that my family wanted to be there and care for her as some sort of conditioning if you wish.......to me that is a poor effort to understand the bonds that are built through life in the family unit. Advocating children adopt a selfish me first attitude, on the pretext that their parents should have made adequate provision for their old age, comes across as a cold uncaring attitude, and perhaps spawns from an arrogant type of person who thinks from birth they made their own way to where they are now.

There is a flipside to the elders know everything and are always correct attitude, but this can be diluted without children losing respect for their parents/elders and becoming self centred. To be polite costs nothing.

Edited April 8, 2012 by 473geo

[TommoPhysicist]

The truth is, young people today are as every bit as moral as people in your day, perhaps more so, but you'd need to talk to a few to find that out.

Why don't many women care about their children any more (and put up with a marriage that is slightly less than perfect)?

Why would they rather their children have no father (as opposed to an inconvenient father)?

Why do people claim social security payments rather than work?

Why do MPs fiddle their expenses?

Are people really as moral today, or are they just more selfish?

Edited April 8, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Trembly]

It depends on where you are, but also, I would say, if you knew a little bit more about thais and thai culture, you would also realize that they can be very age conscious.

For example, some of my female friends, who are in their mid to late 20´s, refuse to go to certain places, cause they say its only for the young people, meaning in their early twenties. Furthermore, I play heavy rock music, and when some girls realize I am over 30, and yet not married, they think it is really strange. By thirty, they think I should have been married a long time ago, gotten some kids, and stop playing heavy rock music.

These girls sound like neurotic power freaks.

[manarak]

Tommophysicist, you made some excellent points.

Why don't many women care about their children any more (and put up with a marriage that is slightly less than perfect)?

Why would they rather their children have no father (as opposed to an inconvenient father)?

Why do people claim social security payments rather than work?

Why do MPs fiddle their expenses?

Are people really as moral today, or are they just more selfish?

- because modern society has taught women that it is acceptable to pursue their own interests instead of putting their children and husband first

- because modern society has put forward the idea of "love marriage" as opposed to a community of interests

- because people are naturally lazy and learned that if they just did nothing, the laws made by socialist governments would provide them with everything they need

- MPs fiddle their expenses (in the West) because much power has been taken away from them and because of anti-corruption laws (which I consider often to be too drastic). Important people with high status should be HiSo, but western MP wages don't allow for that, so the expenses is the easiest way to make some extra money on the side.

So, are people more selfish?

I don't think they are more selfish, I think they have more options at their disposal.

The independently minded wife doesn't get slapped by her husband and ordered into submission by her parents anymore (because there are laws against that).

The lazy guy is not left begging on the street by his government.

I agree with you that the social experiment is failing, but people will not recognize the failure until several more generations have spent their life in despair.

But it is not capitalism that is failing, it is the "egalitarian" society model.

Privileges and unfair advantages will be leveled away until only the most unfair remains: the innate.

The people who will dominate the world will be: serious-looking, tall, with good hair, a deep voice and slightly above average intelligence.

Corporations with atomized ownership (i.e. weak shareholders) are a good example for that.

How big are the chances for an ugly, baby-faced, fat guy with a high-pitched voice to become CEO?

[GuestHouse]

If UK MPs fiddling expenses upsets you (and lets remember that ended in criminal convictions and jail time) how on earth do you square your outrage over such corruption when here in Thailand it would be regarded as not even mentioning - MPs here stoop to nothing less than fiddling hundreds of millions, billions even and they know we all know they will not do any jail time for their crimes.

As for the changes in society, women't rights the promotion of egalitarianism (an equal chance not an equal life) - well if these things trouble you, and the days when a man could knock his wife about for exhibiting 'independent thinking tendencies' are to you the golden days, then perhaps we ought to spare a thought for whoever it is that is lumbered with you.

[GuestHouse]

That is true. In my first marriage I paid ALL the bills even though my wife was a registered nurse who could earn more money than me if she wanted to. I also did all the yard work and 90% of the cooking and cleanup. My wife stayed home with the children when they were small, but after the kids went to school she spent the rest of the day "playing ladies" with her friends while I was at work. My second marriage was much the same except I financed my wife on a variety of home businesses that she didn't follow through on, but could have made money and didn't. And, I was expected to supplement the finances of her grown children. Yup, you are correct, Follow who pays the bills in most marriages..

Sounds like a nightmare Ian, how on earth did you get into such an arrangement? - Did she put a gun to your head on pay day and make you hand over the money before throwing you out into the yard or chaining you to the Kitchen sink?

Or did you just roll over and do as you were told?

[manarak]

That is true. In my first marriage I paid ALL the bills even though my wife was a registered nurse who could earn more money than me if she wanted to. I also did all the yard work and 90% of the cooking and cleanup. My wife stayed home with the children when they were small, but after the kids went to school she spent the rest of the day "playing ladies" with her friends while I was at work. My second marriage was much the same except I financed my wife on a variety of home businesses that she didn't follow through on, but could have made money and didn't. And, I was expected to supplement the finances of her grown children. Yup, you are correct, Follow who pays the bills in most marriages..

Sounds like a nightmare Ian, how on earth did you get into such an arrangement? - Did she put a gun to your head on pay day and make you hand over the money before throwing you out into the yard or chaining you to the Kitchen sink?

Or did you just roll over and do as you were told?

Ian sounds like a nice and sensible gentleman - that is probably what lost him.

[payak]

Well too bad to be you. Luckily my wife's richer than I am and I have more to lose than she does so I feel pity for you. You will eventually find yours. Time for bed, I bid you good night

maxme, everytime I make a post you think It's aimed at you.

I was not talking about you, I don't know you.

I will not find a woman as I I have one already, been together for years, 2 children together.

I said many girls use men, I did not say they use maxme, why did you think it was aimed at you.

the world revolves around the sun, not around maxme.

Edited April 8, 2012 by payak

[TommoPhysicist]

That is true. In my first marriage I paid ALL the bills even though my wife was a registered nurse who could earn more money than me if she wanted to. I also did all the yard work and 90% of the cooking and cleanup. My wife stayed home with the children when they were small, but after the kids went to school she spent the rest of the day "playing ladies" with her friends while I was at work. My second marriage was much the same except I financed my wife on a variety of home businesses that she didn't follow through on, but could have made money and didn't. And, I was expected to supplement the finances of her grown children. Yup, you are correct, Follow who pays the bills in most marriages..

Sounds like a nightmare Ian, how on earth did you get into such an arrangement? - Did she put a gun to your head on pay day and make you hand over the money before throwing you out into the yard or chaining you to the Kitchen sink?

Or did you just roll over and do as you were told?

In the the west most of us learned to roll over and do as we were told, else we had to give up our homes and children.

In the end many of us lost the home and children despite our obedience.

@Guesthouse

From your last two posts, I'm thinking you never managed to live with a woman in the west, lucky you.

Edited April 8, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Tanaka]

How old and how western, Kerry? I've been around a long time and don't have any thoughts about leaving any time soon.

Colour film wasn't even invented when they took this photo of me.

You are the one on top of the hill in the background, right?

[GuestHouse]

In the the west most of us learned to roll over and do as we were told, else we had to give up our homes and children.

In the end many of us lost the home and children despite our obedience.

@Guesthouse

From your last two posts, I'm thinking you never managed to live with a woman in the west, lucky you.

Another one - Moved to Thailand to become a man because well those western women got the better of him..... Please it just does not wash - You're a grown man, I'm assuming you've been a grown man for a while now. Why would you allow yourself to be press ganged into "rolling over and doing as you're told?"

The conclusion you draw from my last posts is entirely wrong - And there's a point here - Not all western men are pussy whipped fops scared of western women.

Honestly grown men who would have us believe they've got their stuff together coming on here posting about being bullied by western women (The exception of course being Manarak who tells us he regrets the presence of laws preventing husbands beating up their wives for entertaining independent thoughts).

Guys, print your posts and take them to someone who can help you with your issues. There's nothing wrong with seeking help when you need it.

Edited April 8, 2012 by GuestHouse

[kerryk]

In the the west most of us learned to roll over and do as we were told, else we had to give up our homes and children.

In the end many of us lost the home and children despite our obedience.

@Guesthouse

From your last two posts, I'm thinking you never managed to live with a woman in the west, lucky you.

Another one - Moved to Thailand to become a man because well those western women got the better of him..... Please it just does not wash - You're a grown man, I'm assuming you've been a grown man for a while now. Why would you allow yourself to be press ganged into "rolling over and doing as you're told?"

The conclusion you draw from my last posts is entirely wrong - And there's a point here - Not all western men are pussy whipped fops scared of western women.

Honestly grown men who would have us believe they've got their stuff together coming on here posting about being bullied by western women (The exception of course being Manarak who tells us he regrets the presence of laws preventing husbands beating up their wives for entertaining independent thoughts).

Guys, print your posts and take them to someone who can help you with your issues. There's nothing wrong with seeking help when you need it.

You bring up an interesting point. Were you married in the West and what did you do with your Western wife?

[flying]

Sorry KerryK

Yours was another good topic originally....Just a ..."I feel good" kind of post

But as I can see it is now being psycho analyzed ad nauseum by the usual suspects.

You should have known.......You need to keep these things quiet

Chok Dee !

[GuestHouse]

You bring up an interesting point. Were you married in the West and what did you do with your Western wife?

You've obviously missed my oft repeated advice

here on TV, but I'll give it again for your benefit.

Never introduce your wife, girlfriend, family, loved ones or anyone you care about into this nest of vipers we know as Thaivisa.

In this thread we have a member bemoaning laws against wife beating, you might want to discuss your loved ones in such company, that's your choice. I certainly will not discuss my family here on TV.

Never have, never will. And unless I do neither shall you.

Edited April 9, 2012 by GuestHouse

[Berkshire]

Strange. I normally like your posts, Berkshire, but this one is pretty far off. And, to suggest that you'd dismiss anything I say ... If you don't agree with me, why don't you take some time to respond to my posts in depth, laying out your argument for others to see? We'd all benefit from it.

To answer your assertion, no, I don't hate all Thais or Thailand. I dislike many of them. I dislike some things that they commonly do. The same was true for natives of my homeland. Perhaps I am somewhat of a misanthrope Just kidding. But, racist? No, probably not. Xenophobic? Probably not. I fancy myself as a bit of a realist. I don't tend to see things through romantic glasses that some seem to 'wear'. To me, the world is largely explainable and not so mysterious. There are reasons for things that can be discerned and understood through logic and reason and science and history. Like this. I am not the type of person who would just blindly accept a surface concept that one person loves more completely or deeply than another and especially not without first attempting to figure out what I am observing and what I have learned that would support such a hypothesis.

Here's my profile, if it helps at all.

Speak, read, write a good deal of Thai. Young. Married to a Thai woman (educated one with advanced degrees from the west and Thailand). Close to my wife's immediate and extended family. Have a decent number of Thai friends -- some educated in the West (London School of Economics, NYU, MIT etc), and some educated here in Thailand (Culaa, Thammasat, Kasetsart etc). Most all of my Thai friends are what I would call educated (some would say that schooling is not the same as education -- which I often agree not just about Thailand but anywhere in the world). I have very few Thai friends who are below upper middle class. Just turned out that way for me so far. Volunteer when I have time to aid with local causes here in Bangkok and outside it .. like going to the provinces and donating cash and spending time with orphans, feeding soi dogs, helping out a great deal with my wife's family. Live amongst the Thais outside of the farang ghettos (not that they are a bad thing; just my choice). Absolutely love Thai food. In fact, my opinion is that it is among the best food I've had from any country. I work here among Thais and make a decent living. My wife also works as a professional and makes very good money. I find many Thais at odds with my values, and I find some with similar values. Same is true of the natives of my homeland. Many things Thais do tend to annoy the heck out of me; same is true of the natives in my homeland.

Berkshire, you imply that I should be able to accept that the answer to my question is that Thais love their families. So, how can you answer the question with such authority, and, if my assertion is faulty because I can only see through the lens of my own cultural influence, how is it that you can avoid such a pitfall. Are you from another planet? Indeed, are you human at all? My understanding is that it is near impossible for us humans (from anywhere and with any opinions) to truly see things completely objectively as we can only view the world through some lens shaped by our own individual life experiences. The fact that you seem to think or imply that Thais love their families more than many people in the West strikes me a kind of ridiculous; laughable, really. That would be a major breakthrough discovery in human evolution.

The headline would read: "Science: Proof that Thai humans love MORE than Western humans!"

Anyway, even if I did accept your assertion of their love and devotion to their families, no that answer would not be good enough for me, and your asking me shows that you don't really understand my point. The question is not "what". It is "why". Why is their 'devotion' so strong? If you can think about and answer that, you will understand what I was getting at.

At any rate. I would very much like to hear your thoughts; not just your brief criticism of me (rather than my post(s)/ideas) which really contains no argument at all.

Regards,

Well, I do appreciate a civil debate, although I still don't agree with some of your points. But I do respect you trying to explain yourself.

What I keep seeing over and over again on this site are farangs highlighting differences among Thais/westerners, and in nearly every case, their position is inescapably "farang good, Thai bad." Why is it that every time a farang tries to explain "why" Thais doing something that it's always, ALWAYS negative. And how can a farang explain "why" Thais behave as they do? Short answer is they can't. I just shake my head most of the time, but there are times when I feel compelled to offer the alternative perspective. Just the other day, I read someone saying that the Thais wouldn't be hanging out with their families as much if they had their own money. Now how in <deleted>'s name would this guy know that? Again, applying the farang xenophobic view to the Thais.

Many Thai-bashers like to proclaim their agenda as being "realistic," or a "realist." I always find this odd as I believe myself to be a realist as well. So someone is lying or misleading. How can these so-called "realist" see so many negative aspects of Thailand while others who see the same thing, don't come to the same conclusions? Like this thread, for example.

Thailand likes old western guys more than western countries like old western guys. That's how I see it. It'd take several pages to explain, but part of it is Thailand's respect for the elders (vs. the west's celebration of youth), poverty and the recent trend in materialism among some of the poor, single-mother's status in society, financial status of older westerners, reputation of westerners in general (although this is quickly eroding), etc. I recall you saying something to the effect that you don't just blindly respect older people, they have to prove to you that they've earned your respect. Do you respect your grandparents? Well it's the same with Thais. But I know in the west that people of certain positions--regardless of whether they've earned it--command respect based on that position. We're talking military officers, senators, tenured professors, etc. Older Thais don't always have the final say unless they're in a certain position or within the family, similar to the west.

Anyways, I don't really have the time to explain things to your satisfaction. But I tried...

[kerryk]

You bring up an interesting point. Were you married in the West and what did you do with your Western wife?

You've obviously missed my oft repeated advice

here on TV, but I'll give it again for your benefit.

Never introduce your wife, girlfriend, family, loved ones or anyone you care about into this nest of vipers we know as Thaivisa.

In this thread we have a member bemoaning laws against wife beating, you might want to discuss your loved ones in such company, that's your choice. I certainly will not discuss my family here on TV.

Never have, never will. And unless I do neither shall you.

That's what I thought. You never had a Western wife.

[IanForbes]

That is true. In my first marriage I paid ALL the bills even though my wife was a registered nurse who could earn more money than me if she wanted to. I also did all the yard work and 90% of the cooking and cleanup. My wife stayed home with the children when they were small, but after the kids went to school she spent the rest of the day "playing ladies" with her friends while I was at work. My second marriage was much the same except I financed my wife on a variety of home businesses that she didn't follow through on, but could have made money and didn't. And, I was expected to supplement the finances of her grown children. Yup, you are correct, Follow who pays the bills in most marriages..

Sounds like a nightmare Ian, how on earth did you get into such an arrangement? - Did she put a gun to your head on pay day and make you hand over the money before throwing you out into the yard or chaining you to the Kitchen sink?

Or did you just roll over and do as you were told?

It wasn't a nightmare, just an average North American marriage, but I was just acting like I was taught to do from the time I was a youngster... You know, the "old fashioned man", the typical scenario where men are big and strong, and take care of women and family scenario. I don't regret either marriage and it was worth the trip.

[xthAi76s]

Berkshire,

Thanks for the response. I actually really do appreciate you taking the time.

I completely understand your wanting to counter balance the constant bashing -- esp if you see much of the bashing as baseless.

And, if you look at my posts again, you'll see that I don't disagree that older guys could fare better here in Thailand than in the West. What I am focusing on is the 'why' of the matter.

I, too, wanted to offer a counter argument to those who believe that Thailand is somehow unique and/or inherently better with respect to their treatment of older people, in general, and older Westerners, specifically.

I maintain that I believe that this feature of Thai society is primarily a result of where Thailand currently is socio-economically and that there is some good potential for it to change as Thailand 'modernizes' and becomes more prosperous.

Taken from a paper on the role of modernity and increased wealth on changing values and priorities in Japanese families ... It's a long paper, so I've taken the time to highlight an interesting section below.

** Like I've been saying, reasons for everything. Thais are no better or worse than anyone else. We humans generally fall victim (and benefit from) similar challenges all over the world. And, again, you cannot 'cherry-pick' the features you want in a society. With certain challenges of modernity come certain sacrifices. My guess is that the same will be true in Thailand to whatever extent. **

I would very much appreciate it if anyone who is serious about this topic would read the below. The jist is that modernization, increased financial freedom, increased rights and freedom for women and the development of institutional care has caused and continues to cause a redefinition of the role and status of older people in Japanese families. Now, I think anyone who knows anything on the subject knows that the Japanese traditional, older family unit (usually 3 generational or 4 generational) had deep reverence for older people. Historically, even much more so than Thailand, in my estimation.

Sorry it's rather long.

THE ROLE OF THE ELDERLY IN THE FAMILY

Whereas much research on families has focused on the relationship between parents and young children, very

few studies have investigated relationships between aged persons and other family members (Kawai, 1988).

The status of older persons in the family is an important theme in Japan because the number of elders is

increasing steadily, although their status is often ambiguous due to the changing nature of the Japanese family.

Different generations may hold different beliefs: the elderly frequently hope to live with their son’s family, but,

as in the case of the Watanabe family, the younger generation may feel more ambivalent about living together

with their parents.

According to Yuzawa (1995), in 1990, 34.5% of persons at least 64 years old lived with their married sons or

daughters and grandchildren, 13.7 % with their single son(s) and/or daughter(s), 24.2% with their husbands or

wives, and 15.2 % alone or in institutions. The ratio of aged persons who lived with their sons and/or daughters

and others was 87.3% in 1960, decreased to 60.6 % by 1990, and has since declined even further. These

percentages are much higher than those found in the United States (1.3% in the case of persons at least 60-yearold in 1960).

Once the Japanese grow older, many face the problem of how best to live with their son’s family. In the

traditional three-generation family, the grandfather gradually hands over his role to his sons. Hasegawa (1983)

describes how this process occurred among farming families living near Osaka. At first, the grandfather handed

over financial responsibilities, such as managing the family budget, to his sons and later allowed them to become

the final decision-makers in the family. Finally, the oldest son was officially registered as the head householder.

In contrast, the daughters-in-law became responsible for most of the housekeeping tasks soon after they entered

the family. The grandmothers took on or continued with complementary roles in housekeeping. The new wives

were expected to obey the family patriarchs—typically their fathers-in-law—and to devote themselves

completely to their new families. The older generation kept their status as householders until a certain age, which

varied with the profession and other considerations, till they retired from active life.

Minoura (1987) discussed the status of wives within families living in a farming area. In interviews, many older

women stated that they had been treated cruelly by their mothers-in-law, but nowadays, they must accept that

their daughters-in-law are becoming much more assertive. Minoura explained this new assertiveness in the

following way. To begin with, there were only a few women who wanted to marry farmers, and this situation

raised the wives’ bargaining position while weakening the traditional family system. In addition, they were

increasingly going out into the workplace to earn their own salary. Finally, as the frequency of arranged

marriages declined in which the women were asked to join an ie rather than simply marrying a husband, the

wives adopted new attitudes toward their marriage. Increasingly, they felt a greater obligation toward the marital

relationship, rather than the family at large. It should be added that in recent years, farming families have been

forced to look for potential wives for their sons in other Asian countries such as the Philippines—a surprising

development for the Japanese who like to emphasize the racial integrity of their society. much-discussed potential problem concerns the relationship between the wife and her mother-in-law. In this context, Sodei (1977) examined the contents of advice columns in various newspapers over a period of 10 years.

He found that more than 30% of those problems involving aged persons revolved around tensions between wives

and their mothers-in-law. Kawai (1988) pointed out that typical conflicts occurred when the beliefs of wives

clashed with those of their mothers-in-law who, in turn, wanted to assert their traditionally superior role. It is

also likely that for the husbands, there was the further conflict between their deep-seated feeling of dependence

on their mothers and the modern emphasis on the equal rights of all family members. Consequently, husbands

may find it difficult to side with their wives rather than their mothers, even if they agree with modern notions of

the nonhierarchical nature of the family.

An additional problem concerns the nature of the relationship between grandparents and grandchildren. Japanese

tend to believe that grandparents spoil their grandchildren, labeling such (supposedly) selfish and poorly

disciplined children “grandfather’s (or grandmother’s) children.” In this context, grandparents may tend to favor

their grandchildren because they see them as the heirs to the family name. At the same time, they struggle to

adhere to conventional family norms governing the grandparent-grandchildren relationship.

In the context of a collaborative study of three-generation families living in Osaka, Fujimoto (1981) argued that

grandparents have come to be placed in an ambivalent status in the current transitional period of the lineal family

system and the nuclear family system. The results of the study showed that most grandparents had intimate

relations with their grandchildren, but one-third of them refrained from acting as child-rearing authority figures

for them. They came to accept the idea that only their sons and daughters should have the responsibility to

educate their grandchildren.

In today’s fast paced world, grandparents often find it difficult to teach their grandchildren who are being

prepared to live in a society quite different from that in which the grandparents themselves grew up. The

grandparents can, however, offer affection, care, and general guidance. Thus they may play a supplementary

role to the parents by, for instance, teaching their grandchildren by example what it means to become older and

to face death. In this context, the current elders have the task of redefining their role in the socialization of their

grandchildren within the new family system.

There is the further question about the role of the family in caring for aged members, such as bedridden aged

persons and persons on their deathbed. According to Yuzawa (1995), bedridden elders increasingly wish to be

taken care of by their spouses, social helpers, or institutions rather than by their daughters-in-law. These changes

in attitude will further weaken the lineal family system. It should be noted that in 2000, the Japanese government

introduced a new social insurance system providing financial support for the time when aged persons need inhome care. These developments mean that the aged persons must learn to adapt to the contract-nature of being

cared for in an institution or in their home by trained personnel who are strangers rather than family members.

Many companies adhere to the policy that their employees must retire at age 60. In this context, many employees

will retire from their posts, but stay on in the company or a related company as part-time workers receiving a

reduced salary. The Ministry of Labor (2000) has published statistics showing the following percentages for

working persons: 94.5% for 55 year-old persons, 73.8% for the 60 year-olds, and 55.8% for the 65 year-olds

indicating a gradual decrease of work involvement with advancing age.

Many retirees are contemplating changes in their lifestyle and spend more time at home: in the aforementioned

survey, 87.1 % of the men in their sixties said that they usually have dinner with their wives, although only

59.7% of the men in their thirties gave the same reply. However, a mere 37.0% of the elderly indicated that they

discussed their troubles and concerns with their partners. That percentage was practically the same as that for the

men in their thirties (38.3%).

In addition, many of the elderly experience anxieties about their health status. In a survey by Yuzawa (1995),

52.3% of the elderly indicated that they sometimes or always felt anxious about their health, 31.1% said they felt

lonely or isolated, and 28.4% were worried about their social relationships.

Altogether, it seems clear that many of the elderly need to redefine their relationship with each other and how to

spend their free time. Many books are now being published that discuss how newly retired persons may find

new purposes in their everyday lives.

The Changing Japanese Family A Psychological Portrait.pdf

[IanForbes]

I actually took the time to read and digest all that and would have to agree that there are similarities to Thailand. Trying to compare what goes on in rural Thailand to what happens in the various cities is like comparing night and day. That is why we get so many widely oposite answers here on thaivisa.

[xthAi76s]

I actually took the time to read and digest all that and would have to agree that there are similarities to Thailand. Trying to compare what goes on in rural Thailand to what happens in the various cities is like comparing night and day. That is why we get so many widely oposite answers here on thaivisa.

Thanks for reading, IanForbes. As Thailand becomes more prosperous, I just sincerely doubt we will be seeing as many threads with older gentleman making the same positive comments about how they are treated and revered.

So, that's more reason to enjoy the heck out of it now.

I'll check back in 10 years, assuming TV will still be around.

Edited April 9, 2012 by xthAi76s

[yermanee]

I actually took the time to read and digest all that and would have to agree that there are similarities to Thailand. Trying to compare what goes on in rural Thailand to what happens in the various cities is like comparing night and day. That is why we get so many widely oposite answers here on thaivisa.

Thanks for reading, IanForbes. As Thailand becomes more prosperous, I just sincerely doubt we will be seeing as many threads with older gentleman making the same positive comments about how they are treated and revered.

So, that's more reason to enjoy the heck out of it now.

I'll check back in 10 years, assuming TV will still be around.

Just as an aside. Have you ever considered that affection, connectedness, camaraderie, gratitude, loyalty and even love seem to be human traits largely disappearing in the west but still found here in the east ?

Yermanee

[473geo]

I actually took the time to read and digest all that and would have to agree that there are similarities to Thailand. Trying to compare what goes on in rural Thailand to what happens in the various cities is like comparing night and day. That is why we get so many widely oposite answers here on thaivisa.

Thanks for reading, IanForbes. As Thailand becomes more prosperous, I just sincerely doubt we will be seeing as many threads with older gentleman making the same positive comments about how they are treated and revered.

So, that's more reason to enjoy the heck out of it now.

I'll check back in 10 years, assuming TV will still be around.

Good comment from Ian there will always be a differing structure in the large rural family that works together than the comparitively solitary units created by urban dwelling

I find the article more about the changes in family heirarchy which in turn does not mean the respect and affection disappears, indeed the clash between the in-laws is an example of heirarchical exchange, does not diminish the respect for elders, rather it highlights the need for them to become a less assertive and take a step back, which in the modern day would probably gain them even more respect

I have previously made my point about the institutionalisation of the elderly, in my world you do not discard the aged on a conveyor belt to the the crematorium 15 years before they are due to die!

I have stated many times on this forum that I feel priviledged to have experienced Thailand over the years, I am of the opinion that those catching the tail end of Thailand, before it becomes fully immersed in westernised consumerism, will struggle to understand what joy they narrowly missed.

I fully agree.....enjoy while you can.......I hope I am around in 10 years too....and still contributing to a stable cohesive famiy unit in rural Thailand spanning 3 or 4 generations........and getting to spoil my grand children once in while........

[IanForbes]

In what minor part I play, I like to take on the path of a philanthropist in Thailand. And, I can do so with relatively little money. I actually get pleasure out of helping others with less than me, and I ask for nothing in return.

In Canada, my own children and grand children are well taken care of, and will inherit what I own when I die. There is already a social network set up for the poor in Canada. Most of the poor are there because of family circumstances and the unwillingness to work. There's already enough charities in North America and my little bit would mostly be wasted in administration. That is entirely different to what I believe works for me in Thailand.

It's been my experience that people are better off if they struggle a little bit and work hard for what they earn. Those strictly on the dole seldom appreciate what they are given. My idea is to help people help themselves.

Because I walk around in Thailand like I own the joint, and always with a smile on my face, it seems to rub off on other people. I seem to get preferential treatment wherever I go. Is money a factor? Of course it is, but when I really don't care what others think then it never bothers me if someone is trying to scam me. I just laugh it off and go on my way. I always seem able to tell the difference between the real thing and a scam. I think that is why Thais always think I'm much younger than I actually am.

[GuestHouse]

I have stated many times on this forum that I feel priviledged to have experienced Thailand over the years, I am of the opinion that those catching the tail end of Thailand, before it becomes fully immersed in westernised consumerism, will struggle to understand what joy they narrowly missed.

I don't know where the idea of western consumerism invading Thailand comes from. Thailand and Thais have nothing to learn from the west when it comes to the excesses of conumerism and materialism - This society is headlong into materlism and consumption - all self taught and with next to zero introspection on the subject. A nation founded, we are told on Buddhism but at the dame tome rabidly materialistic.

Edited April 9, 2012 by GuestHouse

[473geo]

I have stated many times on this forum that I feel priviledged to have experienced Thailand over the years, I am of the opinion that those catching the tail end of Thailand, before it becomes fully immersed in westernised consumerism, will struggle to understand what joy they narrowly missed.

I don't know where the idea of western consumerism invading Thailand comes from. Thailand and Thais have nothing to learn from the west when it comes to the excesses of conumerism and materialism - This society is headlong into materlism and consumption - all self taught and with next to zero introspection on the subject. A nation founded, we are told on Buddhism but at the dame tome rabidly materialistic.

Oh dear.......how do you think rampant consumerism is fuelled and achieved.......increase the level of expectation...provide the financial methodology to empower the increase in consumption.......you think this situation is a natural phenomenon and not engineered?

I am rather surprised by your comment you appear to have the ability to think outside the box.....I'll put it down to an off day

[GuestHouse]

Oh dear.......how do you think rampant consumerism is fuelled and achieved.......increase the level of expectation...provide the financial methodology to empower the increase in consumption.......you think this situation is a natural phenomenon and not engineered?

I am rather surprised by your comment you appear to have the ability to think outside the box.....I'll put it down to an off day

Yes but non of that is written on a blank sheet. Consumerism and materialism here in Thailand is being home grown, controlled and milked by a very small group of families. We might argue the predominance of a particular ethnic group within this controlling circle but it certainly is not western.

Meanwhile the debate on the ills of materialsm and consumerism is common place in the west yet seldom discussed here in Thailand - there us little or no introspection on the subject - mindless home grown materialsm.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Some interesting points. Just for record, yes, I do believe everyone should be respected by default unless there is reason to the contrary. My comment that you quoted, perhaps didn't make that clear.

However, with respect to your points about family, I cannot fully agree. I do agree, obviously, with the historical point, but I do believe that at some point we might tend to evolve past that understanding of obligation. What of a mother and father who brought a child into a cruel world, ill-prepared to raise it to happiness? What of parents who raised a child only as a secondary task to advancing their careers, say, moving around frequently and ripping their child from friendships that he/she had developed. I think you get my point without too many silly examples, but these questions are real. Just because you popped me out into this ridiculous existence, it does not mean you have done a good job and have earned default, unwavering support from me. Just because my mother had a mother who I happen to have been acquainted with does not mean it is my obligation to her, my grandmother, as she ails in old age. On the contrary, I expect her/them/anyone to make arrangements (if they truly care for me) to prevent me from having to be burdened with their suffering. I expect the same of myself.

But, this is only my opinion, of course. Most don't see it this way, for sure.

I can't agree or disagree with your opinion about what would transpire if, say, more people thought like I did or if the state or some other entity tried to replace the space that family has historically occupied because it's far too complicated to form a solid hypothesis about, but I can tell what I hope would happen. I would hope that people begin to believe personal responsibility to oneself is more important than the selfish, self-centered love and bonding that relies on mutual fear. I hope that makes sense. I've had a couple of beers...

EDIT:

I'm going to think on your comment about the West's reliance on law and the state and how that may have influenced those societies. I've never thought about that angle. Thanks

Thank you for a thoughtful response, refreshing around here.

I completely agree that the institution of "family" as currently defined isn't perfect.

I think the solution is what is actually happening - that concept is being re-defined - blended families, gay families, polyamory, tribal families, conscious communities etc.

I used to think some utopia with paid caregivers raising the children would work, but now I don't, I think any formal institutions created on a large scale (e.g. corporations, governments) end up being waylaid by the inevitable corruption of bureacracy - money and power.

Solutions are only sustainable at the grassroots level - peer-to-peer ad-hoc arrangements based on loving committments to each other's welfare.

Children born into unfortunate circumstances where their caregivers don't really care will always suffer. Like the fight against terrorism, any large-scale "solution" to the fundamental problem is likely to cause more harm than the original problem. IMO YMMV

[473geo]

Oh dear.......how do you think rampant consumerism is fuelled and achieved.......increase the level of expectation...provide the financial methodology to empower the increase in consumption.......you think this situation is a natural phenomenon and not engineered?

I am rather surprised by your comment you appear to have the ability to think outside the box.....I'll put it down to an off day

Yes but non of that is written on a blank sheet. Consumerism and materialism here in Thailand is being home grown, controlled and milked by a very small group of families. We might argue the predominance of a particular ethnic group within this controlling circle but it certainly is not western.

Meanwhile the debate on the ills of materialsm and consumerism is common place in the west yet seldom discussed here in Thailand - there us little or no introspection on the subject - mindless home grown materialsm.

I doubt you will find many that buy into the idea the increase in consumerism in Thailand was invented, created, driven and implemented by a group of Thai elites.........your attempt to blame the buyers rather than the slick product marketers and manufacturers is rather crude......consumerism is projected as 'normal' and even arrives alongside neatly packaged readily available finance deals.....the mechanism of consumerism is creating demand.....a demand which is relatively dormant until the possibilities are presented and marketed

The debate on the ills of consumerism probably did not start to take place in the west until a few years of full on implementation......and it failed to stop the train too!

Apologies to the OP we are moving well off topic!

Edited April 9, 2012 by 473geo