Thailand Really Likes Old Western Guys

[ExpatOilWorker]

The older gentleman are very smart for finding and choosing to live in Thailand. However, I do not understand you people thus come to the conclusion that Thailand is superior to the West. The reason why a Westerner can live a good life style here is because it is a backwards Banana Republic run by crooks.

As for respect, Thais have very little respect for human life. They respect elders because there is a very important system of social hierarchy which aims to keep the peasants in line. If Thais respect the elderly so much, why haven't they come up with a sytem of social welfare such as Social Security? Why is there no minimum standard of living? Why are there no property taxes? Why aren't income taxes collected? Why isn't there very much wealth redistribution? Why can police officers murder someone in the middle of a crowdy room without recourse? Why isn't there any freedom of speech? Why isn't there due process? Why aren't there school buses?

You guys should stop slamming the West and thank god that you won the birth lottery.

I have to think you don't speak Thai and/or don't know any bright educated Thais who speak English. Because if you asked anyone who knows Thailand very well you would have your questions answered. I would answer them but this forum is not the place for that kind of discussion. Sound bites are about the best one can do.

Depends how you define educated. An education from Chulangkorn or Thammsat won´t cut it but people who have traveled and are looking on Thailand with an objective mind are usually the enlightened ones. You could have "educated" people who scream Thaksin all day long and that does not make them educated in my mind but then again we have some westerners who behave exactly the same.

I do think that we all have a reason for coming here, not much as same as the other but our own special reason for it. Although my hopes are that Thais will one day enjoy the same money and opportunities like us westerners I think many farangs that come here don´t care how bad some Thai lives and why should they, they get cheap beer, living, food and girls.

There are a lot of people who have both degrees from Thailand and the West. Thousands of people.

You wrote, “An education from Chulangkorn or Thammsat won´t cut it.”

You opened the door. OK Mr Scholar. Where were you educated and when did you graduate and with what degrees?

I will evaluate your credentials and let you know if you are qualified to make a judgment about Chulangkorn or Thammsat.

Come on guys..............it is spelled Chulalongkorn, just like Long Gun Bar at Soi Cowboy where I got my Master degree from.

[maxme]

The older gentleman are very smart for finding and choosing to live in Thailand. However, I do not understand you people thus come to the conclusion that Thailand is superior to the West. The reason why a Westerner can live a good life style here is because it is a backwards Banana Republic run by crooks.

As for respect, Thais have very little respect for human life. They respect elders because there is a very important system of social hierarchy which aims to keep the peasants in line. If Thais respect the elderly so much, why haven't they come up with a sytem of social welfare such as Social Security? Why is there no minimum standard of living? Why are there no property taxes? Why aren't income taxes collected? Why isn't there very much wealth redistribution? Why can police officers murder someone in the middle of a crowdy room without recourse? Why isn't there any freedom of speech? Why isn't there due process? Why aren't there school buses?

You guys should stop slamming the West and thank god that you won the birth lottery.

I have to think you don't speak Thai and/or don't know any bright educated Thais who speak English. Because if you asked anyone who knows Thailand very well you would have your questions answered. I would answer them but this forum is not the place for that kind of discussion. Sound bites are about the best one can do.

Depends how you define educated. An education from Chulangkorn or Thammsat won´t cut it but people who have traveled and are looking on Thailand with an objective mind are usually the enlightened ones. You could have "educated" people who scream Thaksin all day long and that does not make them educated in my mind but then again we have some westerners who behave exactly the same.

I do think that we all have a reason for coming here, not much as same as the other but our own special reason for it. Although my hopes are that Thais will one day enjoy the same money and opportunities like us westerners I think many farangs that come here don´t care how bad some Thai lives and why should they, they get cheap beer, living, food and girls.

There are a lot of people who have both degrees from Thailand and the West. Thousands of people.

You wrote, “An education from Chulangkorn or Thammsat won´t cut it.”

You opened the door. OK Mr Scholar. Where were you educated and when did you graduate and with what degrees?

I will evaluate your credentials and let you know if you are qualified to make a judgment about Chulangkorn or Thammsat.

So you want a pissing match or are you just to too dumb to see the point. My wife is from Chula, me well I'll give you a hint... it´s in the south near a bay area. You could go to Harvard or Yale, still it just make you good at what you do nothing else. General education and experiences and our analyze upon these two aspects are what counts.

I bet you could make a list of credentials but it doesn´t change the fact that an educated Thai can´t drive a car much less make decisions which could benifit the society. It's not looking down on the Thais, it´s how it is now.

Like our former and dear finance minister said "Why do we need to worry about VAT, that´s a tourist problem?!"

I think since you are from an older generation and thus have a problem accepting other people's opinion because you have pictured up your world already. I know folks like you and I'm not judging your character just your way to dismiss other peoples take on the matter.

Now I've answered your question, it would be nice for you to answer mine, where did your wife graduate?

[maxme]

ExpatOilWorker, if you had said Khao San Road, I might have believed ya'

[kerryk]

Maxme,

IUA London Campus and Rajamangala University and one other in Thailand but she is out tonight and I can't ask her.

Although I don't know why you asked.

[maxme]

Usually the Thai reflects upon the matter with a different perspective pending on from what uni they gradutated from. But in this case it was a cheap shot I slung back at you

I had a student who refused to believe that her university King Mongkut is not ranked nr 3 in the "official" list. Simply because the teachers there said it so it must be so. The outcome remains the same and right now she's eating her words as most companies won´t take her with a plier. It´s unfortunate that the educational system is what it is. I´ve witnessed corruption, manhandling the students if they don´t understand an principals or directors as they liked to be called falsify grades for obvious reasons.

Now my wife has a nag for remembering things which I call cheating since others have to struggle with the study, but she has earned her place because worked to get it. Her family ain´t rich but they are not exactly poor either but that shouldn't matter now should it. How many do not get free rides through the system just because their folks are either politicians or wealthy/influential?

Does an education from Chula or Thammsat count then despite they didn´t earn it?

Then again this wont matter if the general education since primary school is practically worthless.

Edited April 7, 2012 by maxme

[payak]

Thais can make decisions, it was a thai who created the landing system on the vehicle that landed on mars, no one else could do it.

[farang000999]

Kerry, the point is very simple. Thailand is awesome cause you can get your lawnmower fixed for 100 baht (or whatever the other guy said), you can get a girl 1/3 your age without barely even giving her anything, you can get an hour long massage for 150 baht, you can have a personal driver for a tiny sum.

Trust me though, the girl giving you a foot massage isn't thinking "Oh isn't this wonderful! My country is so amazing! Thank God I am not in the USA making 2500 baht an hour for this service! Lucky me!"

You guys seem to come here, get your frozen yogurt tickled and start going loopy about Thailand's globaly superiority, how much you love Thai people, how amazing they are, how much they love you back. It is all rather Laugh Out Loud from my perspective.

Edited April 7, 2012 by farang000999

[maxme]

Nobody said they can´t but what have they done to upgrade the infrastructure, to fight against unemployment, helping elders, decreasing the death toll regarding traffic, murders and starvation, upgrading educational system? Why is it that most countries demand Thais to procure hard-to-get visas?

The Thais have the opportunity to change this country into something better but don´t because it´s not convenient, not worth it, only brings more trouble. Everything is a struggle, westerners didn't get the things they have the easy way. There was a lot of bloodshed and hard work behind it despite what some Thais wanna think but thankfully there are some now who go against the elite and the mob and do their own thinking and hopefully one day they will change the living standard of Thai people into something better than just surviving.

Edited April 7, 2012 by maxme

[payak]

its sad that thailand is so cheap, and things are so affordable, sad for the locals.

I would love to see thailand financially on par with Australia because I love it.

now if thailand was doing better, kiss your young girls goodbuy.

[maxme]

its sad that thailand is so cheap, and things are so affordable, sad for the locals.

I would love to see thailand financially on par with Australia because I love it.

now if thailand was doing better, kiss your young girls goodbuy.

Glad you can spell goodbye but to stereotype every farang on this forum is a bit low even for you. Do you think the reason some girls take westerners is only because we have more money? Nah my friend, it´s because some of them can´t stand Thai guys behaviors. Payback is a b**** ain't it?

[payak]

guess you did not see the sarcasm in goodbuy.

tell me how many japanese girls date older white men.

it's not being low, just a fact that some cannot accept, and not all are after the old mans money but it cannot be denied, most are.

[maxme]

Well too bad to be you. Luckily my wife's richer than I am and I have more to lose than she does so I feel pity for you. You will eventually find yours. Time for bed, I bid you good night

[GuestHouse]

Modern western society is a failed experiment, young people have no respect for anything, everyone just thinks of themselves. Yet people keep spouting the same old dogma about freedom, when what they really mean is freedom to do whatever they like with no though of everyone else and no responsibility for their actions. The experiment has failed, the youth culture of the west has had its day. Capitalism is dead or dying.

The family unit is all, obligation to your elders is all. Thailand has it right, the west has it wrong.

You're not the first old person in history to bemoan that passing of the world you grew up in or that the your of today lack the morals of they youth of your own day. It's an aspect of getting old that lots of people go through as the world changes faster than they can cope with.

The truth is, young people today are as every bit as moral as people in your day, perhaps more so, but you'd need to talk to a few to find that out.

As for the obligations within Thai society to family - There's no excuse for you not taking a closer look at those obligations, how they are developed in the individual and the impact they have on people's lives - The happy loving extended family we are told is the national norm, may not be what it's cracked up to be in the glossy brochure.

Edited April 7, 2012 by GuestHouse

[GuestHouse]

Tomorrow I am going to the beach with the whole family and dinner and a concert after dinner. The ages range from 2 to 75 and everyone will have a good time and take photos and post them on face book. The teens won't be ashamed of dancing with the old Farang. I might even play the guitar on stage a bit.

Follow the money.

Who paid the bill?

[IanForbes]

Follow the money.

Who paid the bill?

That is true. In my first marriage I paid ALL the bills even though my wife was a registered nurse who could earn more money than me if she wanted to. I also did all the yard work and 90% of the cooking and cleanup. My wife stayed home with the children when they were small, but after the kids went to school she spent the rest of the day "playing ladies" with her friends while I was at work. My second marriage was much the same except I financed my wife on a variety of home businesses that she didn't follow through on, but could have made money and didn't. And, I was expected to supplement the finances of her grown children. Yup, you are correct, Follow who pays the bills in most marriages..

[Berkshire]

Why should a family be expected to take care of other members? Can anyone answer that with an answer based in logic, or anything other than 'feeling from the heart' or religious reasons ... about what is right?

You clearly have an extreme anti-Thai biased, so your "opinions" can't be taken seriously. Especially when you try to explain Thai behavior from such a xenophobic farang perspective. Can you even accept that the answer to your question above is the Thais love and devotion to their family? Is that logical enough for you? I think not. I understand that you hate the Thais and Thailand, so your opinions about pretty much everything Thai will be skewed to that extreme. I simply don't agree with you.

[Berkshire]

You have to love all the people who claim Thailand is superior to the West. I guess that is why the per capita income in Thailand is a tiny fraction of the per capita income of the West.

Another farang who thinks that the most important thing in life is money. When you finally get some--as I'm fairly certain you don't have--you'll see that it's not what makes people happy.

[Berkshire]

Modern western society is a failed experiment, young people have no respect for anything, everyone just thinks of themselves. Yet people keep spouting the same old dogma about freedom, when what they really mean is freedom to do whatever they like with no though of everyone else and no responsibility for their actions. The experiment has failed, the youth culture of the west has had its day. Capitalism is dead or dying.

The family unit is all, obligation to your elders is all. Thailand has it right, the west has it wrong.

This is the biggest load of BS I think I have ever read on Thai Visa.

I think Tommo makes a very good point--which makes your opinion a bigger load of BS than his.

[xthAi76s]

Why should a family be expected to take care of other members? Can anyone answer that with an answer based in logic, or anything other than 'feeling from the heart' or religious reasons ... about what is right?

You clearly have an extreme anti-Thai biased, so your "opinions" can't be taken seriously. Especially when you try to explain Thai behavior from such a xenophobic farang perspective. Can you even accept that the answer to your question above is the Thais love and devotion to their family? Is that logical enough for you? I think not. I understand that you hate the Thais and Thailand, so your opinions about pretty much everything Thai will be skewed to that extreme. I simply don't agree with you.

Strange. I normally like your posts, Berkshire, but this one is pretty far off. And, to suggest that you'd dismiss anything I say ... If you don't agree with me, why don't you take some time to respond to my posts in depth, laying out your argument for others to see? We'd all benefit from it.

To answer your assertion, no, I don't hate all Thais or Thailand. I dislike many of them. I dislike some things that they commonly do. The same was true for natives of my homeland. Perhaps I am somewhat of a misanthrope Just kidding. But, racist? No, probably not. Xenophobic? Probably not. I fancy myself as a bit of a realist. I don't tend to see things through romantic glasses that some seem to 'wear'. To me, the world is largely explainable and not so mysterious. There are reasons for things that can be discerned and understood through logic and reason and science and history. Like this. I am not the type of person who would just blindly accept a surface concept that one person loves more completely or deeply than another and especially not without first attempting to figure out what I am observing and what I have learned that would support such a hypothesis.

Here's my profile, if it helps at all.

Speak, read, write a good deal of Thai. Young. Married to a Thai woman (educated one with advanced degrees from the west and Thailand). Close to my wife's immediate and extended family. Have a decent number of Thai friends -- some educated in the West (London School of Economics, NYU, MIT etc), and some educated here in Thailand (Culaa, Thammasat, Kasetsart etc). Most all of my Thai friends are what I would call educated (some would say that schooling is not the same as education -- which I often agree not just about Thailand but anywhere in the world). I have very few Thai friends who are below upper middle class. Just turned out that way for me so far. Volunteer when I have time to aid with local causes here in Bangkok and outside it .. like going to the provinces and donating cash and spending time with orphans, feeding soi dogs, helping out a great deal with my wife's family. Live amongst the Thais outside of the farang ghettos (not that they are a bad thing; just my choice). Absolutely love Thai food. In fact, my opinion is that it is among the best food I've had from any country. I work here among Thais and make a decent living. My wife also works as a professional and makes very good money. I find many Thais at odds with my values, and I find some with similar values. Same is true of the natives of my homeland. Many things Thais do tend to annoy the heck out of me; same is true of the natives in my homeland.

Berkshire, you imply that I should be able to accept that the answer to my question is that Thais love their families. So, how can you answer the question with such authority, and, if my assertion is faulty because I can only see through the lens of my own cultural influence, how is it that you can avoid such a pitfall. Are you from another planet? Indeed, are you human at all? My understanding is that it is near impossible for us humans (from anywhere and with any opinions) to truly see things completely objectively as we can only view the world through some lens shaped by our own individual life experiences. The fact that you seem to think or imply that Thais love their families more than many people in the West strikes me a kind of ridiculous; laughable, really. That would be a major breakthrough discovery in human evolution.

The headline would read: "Science: Proof that Thai humans love MORE than Western humans!"

Anyway, even if I did accept your assertion of their love and devotion to their families, no that answer would not be good enough for me, and your asking me shows that you don't really understand my point. The question is not "what". It is "why". Why is their 'devotion' so strong? If you can think about and answer that, you will understand what I was getting at.

At any rate. I would very much like to hear your thoughts; not just your brief criticism of me (rather than my post(s)/ideas) which really contains no argument at all.

Regards,

Edited April 8, 2012 by xthAi76s

[xthAi76s]

Berkshire,

Please, if you don't mind, can you lay out your arguments on this topic in a detailed manner so that we can learn your position? The one- or two-liner criticisms of the posters is not a worthy replacement for a detailed criticism of their/our posts/ideas/arguments.

What is your take on the subject?

[IanForbes]

Good post... you with the unpronounceable name. I tend to actually READ what a person says and I pay attention to previous posts. There is a huge difference between being racist and actually understanding reality. Unless of course, if you have a different description of what a racist is.

[xthAi76s]

Good post... you with the unpronounceable name. I tend to actually READ what a person says and I pay attention to previous posts. There is a huge difference between being racist and actually understanding reality. Unless of course, if you have a different description of what a racist is.

Thanks. Right, I too believe there's a difference. I get criticized all the time for being a boring, often dispassionate realist. Those criticisms are often rather accurate!

And, it is often the realists who because of their unwillingness (or inability) to scrap logic and analysis and to instead show passionate/emotional adherence to particular set of cultural beliefs are often cast out and criticized quite heavily and untrusted. I can be just as deeply critical of the West on any number of topics. So, I don't have many supporters when it comes to argument.

I try to look at everything from a few steps back (so-to-speak). Of course, I cannot remove the lens through which I see reality but I try my best.

Edited April 8, 2012 by xthAi76s

[kerryk]

Tomorrow I am going to the beach with the whole family and dinner and a concert after dinner. The ages range from 2 to 75 and everyone will have a good time and take photos and post them on face book. The teens won't be ashamed of dancing with the old Farang. I might even play the guitar on stage a bit.

Follow the money.

Who paid the bill?

You know I wouldn't lie to you. My GF's older sister's husband.

[fred110]

Aren't grandparents cherished and loved by their children and grandchildren in any country or culture the world over? What's the point of this thread?

As for acceptance, if you're bankrolling everyone's happiness, of course they'll love you; take a gander at photos of President Bush hugging,kissing and holding hands with Saudi leaders - that too is universal.

You missed the point. You are not an old guy I take it.

No, it's not the same. In the West you are a grampa at 40. It's the youth culture. Families don't go to concerts together. Families don't go out dancing on a Friday night together.

It is not a matter of bankrolling everyone's happiness. Sometimes I pay but if we go out with a more senior more important person he pays.

Age was once upon a time respected in the West. If you are old you realize this. It still is in most parts of Thailand not Bangkok or Phuket.

So there are a number of things going for the old guy here. One is Thailand is still culturally 100 years behind the West in some things, respect of age being one of them and the Asian respect for ancestors thing.

Add that to the Asian religion stuff about old guys and it's a trifecta.

You're generalizing. When I go to the US we all go to the American Legion on Fridays, dinner, live band, pool, etc. My mom is 80, cousins bring their babies. You need to go to the 'hinterland'.

[buhi]

As an older Western guy married to a younger Thai woman, my take on this is that the family is more important in Thailand as it serves the role that social security does in Western countries.

However family bonds are still strong in the West, but tend to be distanced by place of work.

My English family is scattered across the UK and get togethers only occur on special occasions.My Thai family all live locally and we are in constant contact.As such we all know the needs of each other and help if we can; it is a multi dimensional assistance line, not one way.

I don't think I could survive in Thailand without "the family"; they help raise my children, provide a link for me to engage in Thai life in a Thai neighbourhood, where all are part of the larger extended family networks.

In my opinion Thai do not have close friends in the way westerners do, family is so much more important.I rarely see any one from outside the extended family socialising except for big occasions, weddings, funerals and these events are by their nature "family" central events.

Add to this the lawlessness of Thai society; do you expect the police to help you when there is a problem?

No,the family is the network which operates through contacts.Yes it is feudal and patronizing, but that is how it is.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I will stick my neck out here and say the older and more blue collar you are, the more you enjoy Thailand.

This comment stopped me in my tracks abit and set me thinking. Does this comment seem logical? If so, why?

How bizarre. Lots of non-blue collar people are open-minded not to be hampered by their background. True they may not have as much experience in low-tech DIY, but after all that's not expensive to hire here. I suppose you mean automatically getting status and respect you wouldn't back home, where the higher-class person would be used to it in both places. . .

I'm just at a loss for how you both can justify blind respect and honor towards people who have not necessarily earned it? Is it that your standards are lower or is it that most of us just haven't evolved past that arbitrary, somewhat ridiculous paradigm? Why do family members 'always' get preferential treatment, and why do older people 'always' get preferential treatment? I see absolutely no logic in this at all.

IMO every human being should receive respect and courtesy from everyone by default.

The family is the bedrock foundation of all civilization, if you think the state will replace it with good results, I think in the long term you'll only see disaster.

Children should take care of their parents in old age just as they were cared for (or better) in their childhood. Brothers and sisters should help each other out more readily than they would a random stranger, or even a good friend. Of course you have to protect yourself from those who would abuse your kindness, but if these rules were followed universally - which is IMO the test of good ethics - then the world would be a much better place.

Relying on laws and large institutions to substitute for such basic guidelines common to every society since the dawn of man is one of the fundamental flaws behind the decline of the west over the past century.

The government safety net should be a last resort for those exceptions where the family has failed, and requiring such support should not be routine and normal. It's just not sustainable.

Much of humanity has been taught to believe it has a "right" to survive, and in those places the system is crumbling. Places like Thailand where people realize they could be left to starve if it weren't for the support of their family and community still have a grasp of how humanity will survive as we get back to basics in the future.

[DowntownAl]

Aren't grandparents cherished and loved by their children and grandchildren in any country or culture the world over? What's the point of this thread?

Absolutely not the case. Canada and most of the western world warehouse their old in retirement and nursing homes, and then play a waiting game to see how long it will take for the will to go through probate. One poster mentioned being called gramps at forty. I watched a guy my age (early 60s) talking to a twenty something girl in a bar in Canada, the bartender yelled at him "Hey old guy, leave the girls alone!" I don't know how old you are but, the OP hit the nail on the head here.

[kerryk]

Aren't grandparents cherished and loved by their children and grandchildren in any country or culture the world over? What's the point of this thread?

As for acceptance, if you're bankrolling everyone's happiness, of course they'll love you; take a gander at photos of President Bush hugging,kissing and holding hands with Saudi leaders - that too is universal.

You missed the point. You are not an old guy I take it.

No, it's not the same. In the West you are a grampa at 40. It's the youth culture. Families don't go to concerts together. Families don't go out dancing on a Friday night together.

It is not a matter of bankrolling everyone's happiness. Sometimes I pay but if we go out with a more senior more important person he pays.

Age was once upon a time respected in the West. If you are old you realize this. It still is in most parts of Thailand not Bangkok or Phuket.

So there are a number of things going for the old guy here. One is Thailand is still culturally 100 years behind the West in some things, respect of age being one of them and the Asian respect for ancestors thing.

Add that to the Asian religion stuff about old guys and it's a trifecta.

You're generalizing. When I go to the US we all go to the American Legion on Fridays, dinner, live band, pool, etc. My mom is 80, cousins bring their babies. You need to go to the 'hinterland'.

In most smaller Thai towns the closest thing to a disco or nightclub is a concert. You don't dance with gramps at a disco in the West. Going out to eat on the weekends and or holidays is a special event for a family in Thailand the same thing with a family outing at the beach. Teens in Thailand are not into the same dating culture as the West. It is still a family thing.

I raised a number of children in the West in different locations and when they turned 13 or 14 everything changed. No longer did they want to do things with the family.

Also there is no tolerance in the West for a older man having a mia noi. I know a number of families where the mother is ill and the father has taken a mia noi and his actions are tolerated.

[xthAi76s]

I will stick my neck out here and say the older and more blue collar you are, the more you enjoy Thailand.

This comment stopped me in my tracks abit and set me thinking. Does this comment seem logical? If so, why?

How bizarre. Lots of non-blue collar people are open-minded not to be hampered by their background. True they may not have as much experience in low-tech DIY, but after all that's not expensive to hire here. I suppose you mean automatically getting status and respect you wouldn't back home, where the higher-class person would be used to it in both places. . .

I'm just at a loss for how you both can justify blind respect and honor towards people who have not necessarily earned it? Is it that your standards are lower or is it that most of us just haven't evolved past that arbitrary, somewhat ridiculous paradigm? Why do family members 'always' get preferential treatment, and why do older people 'always' get preferential treatment? I see absolutely no logic in this at all.

IMO every human being should receive respect and courtesy from everyone by default.

The family is the bedrock foundation of all civilization, if you think the state will replace it with good results, I think in the long term you'll only see disaster.

Children should take care of their parents in old age just as they were cared for (or better) in their childhood. Brothers and sisters should help each other out more readily than they would a random stranger, or even a good friend. Of course you have to protect yourself from those who would abuse your kindness, but if these rules were followed universally - which is IMO the test of good ethics - then the world would be a much better place.

Relying on laws and large institutions to substitute for such basic guidelines common to every society since the dawn of man is one of the fundamental flaws behind the decline of the west over the past century.

The government safety net should be a last resort for those exceptions where the family has failed, and requiring such support should not be routine and normal. It's just not sustainable.

Much of humanity has been taught to believe it has a "right" to survive, and in those places the system is crumbling. Places like Thailand where people realize they could be left to starve if it weren't for the support of their family and community still have a grasp of how humanity will survive as we get back to basics in the future.

Some interesting points. Just for record, yes, I do believe everyone should be respected by default unless there is reason to the contrary. My comment that you quoted, perhaps didn't make that clear.

However, with respect to your points about family, I cannot fully agree. I do agree, obviously, with the historical point, but I do believe that at some point we might tend to evolve past that understanding of obligation. What of a mother and father who brought a child into a cruel world, ill-prepared to raise it to happiness? What of parents who raised a child only as a secondary task to advancing their careers, say, moving around frequently and ripping their child from friendships that he/she had developed. I think you get my point without too many silly examples, but these questions are real. Just because you popped me out into this ridiculous existence, it does not mean you have done a good job and have earned default, unwavering support from me. Just because my mother had a mother who I happen to have been acquainted with does not mean it is my obligation to her, my grandmother, as she ails in old age. On the contrary, I expect her/them/anyone to make arrangements (if they truly care for me) to prevent me from having to be burdened with their suffering. I expect the same of myself.

But, this is only my opinion, of course. Most don't see it this way, for sure.

I can't agree or disagree with your opinion about what would transpire if, say, more people thought like I did or if the state or some other entity tried to replace the space that family has historically occupied because it's far too complicated to form a solid hypothesis about, but I can tell what I hope would happen. I would hope that people begin to believe personal responsibility to oneself is more important than the selfish, self-centered love and bonding that relies on mutual fear. I hope that makes sense. I've had a couple of beers...

EDIT:

I'm going to think on your comment about the West's reliance on law and the state and how that may have influenced those societies. I've never thought about that angle. Thanks

Edited April 8, 2012 by xthAi76s

[anterian]

Whilst the OP is true, there is a downside to being a respected elder, namely you are expected to participate at every community function. This involves eating food which is basically chili flavoured with chili, drinking innumerable alcoholic beverages and having your eardrums damaged by 130 decibel sound systems.