Robert Mugabe 'Fighting For Life In Singapore Hospital'

[madmitch]

Some off-topic posts and some baiting and inflammatory posts as well as replies, have been deleted.

Out of curiosity, were the white farmers who left or were expelled citizens of Zimbabwe?

Yes they were, (and I think you have just deleted the item I was about to reply to regarding this issue!).

Incidentally, Zimbabwe is one of the most beautiful countries I have visited and if Mugabe's death can get the country back on the tourist agenda again this would be fantastic, though it won't happen overnight.

[Colin Yai]

Trompelmonde , are you implying that third generation born white Rhodesian,s were not Africans so therefore had no social status?

Edited April 11, 2012 by Colin Yai

[notmyself]

Not going to get batter with Mnangagwa in charge.

[GentlemanJim]

Some off-topic posts and some baiting and inflammatory posts as well as replies, have been deleted.

Out of curiosity, were the white farmers who left or were expelled citizens of Zimbabwe?

Born and bred, every bit African as a modern black American rightly calls themselves American.

[blackthorn2005]

No sympathy for the despot here then, I wonder why that is?

[Colin Yai]

No sympathy for the despot here then, I wonder why that is?

Do you honestly believe Mugabe had any sympathy for the millions of lives he personally ruined through his insane socialist agenda's ,to receive sympathy or respect it has to be earned, you named him rightly "despot" to which I will add Murdering .

[Steely Dan]

He had the right idea in the beginning to kick out the land thieving occupiers, but he executed it poorly. Then everything went down a slippery slope, getting worse and worse till the mess that we have now. May the Gods judge him justly. Now that being said I think I may go visit soon to see what kind of opportunities are abound his passing.

The 'Land thieving occupiers' as you put it had taken the country from being a jungle to what is correctly described as the bread basket of Africa. The white farmers employed hundreds of thousands of farm working families. The farmers were given homes, money, food and importantly schools for their children The farms were well tended and successful. All in all if you ask any of those farmers they long for the days of the 'white run' farming system.

All this had been going on progressively for a little over 200 years, in fact a very similar time frame to the occupying of America by the 'whites'. Do we consider that the 'land thieving occupiers' in the United States should hand over all their lands back to the native Americans? The answer is of course no! That was history, the 'occupiers' have improved the lands, made everything commercially successful in the modern world. Had it not been for the white farmers, Mugabe would never even have had an education, nor the infrastructure to become a president. It's similar to the black Americans that scream for countries to apologise for the slave trade....why? Without the slave trade (which was implemented by the African Chieftans anyway), the self same black Americans would likely be living in mud huts somewhere in an African jungle. Blaming the White farmers that made Rhodesia/Zimbabwe such a great place as it was 20 years ago for the occupation by their Great Great Great Grandfathers is nonsense.

There was nothing noble about what Mugabe did as Megaranter would have us believe, he simply allowed the farmers to build a wealthy agricultural nation and then decided he wanted it...ALL. He had zero interest in the normal farmer that was clear, as their homes were burned and destroyed, their schools were burned and destroyed, and their farms that they worked on and made a living for themselves and their families were burned and destroyed. If he cared one iota for his people, I doubt he would have so many numbered accounts in Switzerland. The UN sanctions did not starve the people of Zimbabwe, Mugabe did.

Given time you will see history repeat itself with South Africa. The British colonialists may not have been saints, but they tended to leave infrastructure and systems of government and production behind which still benefit some Countries today. I only wish we could colonize ourselves again and start doing the simple things right instead of the wishy washy liberal consensus we have become.

[Zatoichi]

He had the right idea in the beginning to kick out the land thieving occupiers, but he executed it poorly. Then everything went down a slippery slope, getting worse and worse till the mess that we have now. May the Gods judge him justly. Now that being said I think I may go visit soon to see what kind of opportunities are abound his passing.

The 'Land thieving occupiers' as you put it had taken the country from being a jungle to what is correctly described as the bread basket of Africa. The white farmers employed hundreds of thousands of farm working families. The farmers were given homes, money, food and importantly schools for their children The farms were well tended and successful. All in all if you ask any of those farmers they long for the days of the 'white run' farming system.

All this had been going on progressively for a little over 200 years, in fact a very similar time frame to the occupying of America by the 'whites'. Do we consider that the 'land thieving occupiers' in the United States should hand over all their lands back to the native Americans? The answer is of course no! That was history, the 'occupiers' have improved the lands, made everything commercially successful in the modern world. Had it not been for the white farmers, Mugabe would never even have had an education, nor the infrastructure to become a president. It's similar to the black Americans that scream for countries to apologise for the slave trade....why? Without the slave trade (which was implemented by the African Chieftans anyway), the self same black Americans would likely be living in mud huts somewhere in an African jungle. Blaming the White farmers that made Rhodesia/Zimbabwe such a great place as it was 20 years ago for the occupation by their Great Great Great Grandfathers is nonsense.

There was nothing noble about what Mugabe did as Megaranter would have us believe, he simply allowed the farmers to build a wealthy agricultural nation and then decided he wanted it...ALL. He had zero interest in the normal farmer that was clear, as their homes were burned and destroyed, their schools were burned and destroyed, and their farms that they worked on and made a living for themselves and their families were burned and destroyed. If he cared one iota for his people, I doubt he would have so many numbered accounts in Switzerland. The UN sanctions did not starve the people of Zimbabwe, Mugabe did.

Your self rightious racist indignation would have been offensive 20-30yrs ago, but today it's just laughable, the last of a dying breed, clinging to delusions of white racial superiority and their birthright in Africa. By your skewed logic I could come in your house kick you and your family into the basement and turn the rest of the house into a hotel because I don't think your making the floor space as "prosperous" as it could be. Meanwhile I'll have you chumps clean the toilets and serve the food while I "educate" your children by telling them how worthless they are and how by my blood I'm superior, while lieing to them about their rich cultural heritage under their feet and make it a crime for anyone to speak of it.

GTFO of here with that crap, that kind of mentality is a Joke, and even with the current state of affairs in Zimbabwe, the last laugh iwill be on people who share your additudte.

And I still stand behind Mughabe's decision to kick out the European Occupiers (And on a side note; The Native Americans should have too, they tried and failed, now their all dead. so at least Mugabe did that much for his people ). Now, he went about it wrong. This is what I believe he should have done.

BEFORE kicking them out he should have hired agricultural consultants to survey the land and determine the kind of equipment, materials, and manpower needed to keep the farms running at optimal levels. Then with their aid, create a time share proposal where in the govt would allow foreign agricultural ministries, their corporate representatives, or private companies to bid on the use of the farm land for the next 20-30 years. make 3 or 4 awards dividing up the 70% of Arable land that was in control of the whites.

The Terms of the agreement would allow for the renters to import all their equipment tax free, and export with a set tax (Set by the terms of their award, as one of the deciding factors for the award, how much tax would they be willing to pay for the right to free farm land for X many years)

As well as agricultural OJT and training schools, to educate and employ the Zimbabweans to steadily raise them to self sufficiency. In the interim Export Co-ops could be founded by locals with training paid for by some of the tax dollars, to set up a trade network for the produce from the remaining arable land. Then when the 20-30 years are up and they divide the land amungst the locals or figure out how best to proceed from there, they won't be totally dependent on foreign companies in their country. Another option would be Profit shareing scheme like what happens in many gulf countries like Kuwait, where the govt provides a ton of benifits like Reverse tax, subsidies, housing, medical and more, with the income generated from the oil.

On that note, some of the consultants could have been Thai, agricultural self sufficiency has always been a big thing here.

Further, Export trade licenses should only be given to Zimbabwean's or companies with majority Zimbabwean ownership. And the Tax should have been closely monitored and administratied.

Now this is just a skeletal foundational concept and would need allot of fleshing out. but had he started down this road BEFORE purging his land of the Thieves his people would not have practically lost the use of their nations greatest asset and, subsequently, not have suffered as much.

[p_brownstone]

He had the right idea in the beginning to kick out the land thieving occupiers, but he executed it poorly. Then everything went down a slippery slope, getting worse and worse till the mess that we have now. May the Gods judge him justly. Now that being said I think I may go visit soon to see what kind of opportunities are abound his passing.

The 'Land thieving occupiers' as you put it had taken the country from being a jungle to what is correctly described as the bread basket of Africa. The white farmers employed hundreds of thousands of farm working families. The farmers were given homes, money, food and importantly schools for their children The farms were well tended and successful. All in all if you ask any of those farmers they long for the days of the 'white run' farming system.

All this had been going on progressively for a little over 200 years, in fact a very similar time frame to the occupying of America by the 'whites'. Do we consider that the 'land thieving occupiers' in the United States should hand over all their lands back to the native Americans? The answer is of course no! That was history, the 'occupiers' have improved the lands, made everything commercially successful in the modern world. Had it not been for the white farmers, Mugabe would never even have had an education, nor the infrastructure to become a president. It's similar to the black Americans that scream for countries to apologise for the slave trade....why? Without the slave trade (which was implemented by the African Chieftans anyway), the self same black Americans would likely be living in mud huts somewhere in an African jungle. Blaming the White farmers that made Rhodesia/Zimbabwe such a great place as it was 20 years ago for the occupation by their Great Great Great Grandfathers is nonsense.

There was nothing noble about what Mugabe did as Megaranter would have us believe, he simply allowed the farmers to build a wealthy agricultural nation and then decided he wanted it...ALL. He had zero interest in the normal farmer that was clear, as their homes were burned and destroyed, their schools were burned and destroyed, and their farms that they worked on and made a living for themselves and their families were burned and destroyed. If he cared one iota for his people, I doubt he would have so many numbered accounts in Switzerland. The UN sanctions did not starve the people of Zimbabwe, Mugabe did.

Your self rightious racist indignation would have been offensive 20-30yrs ago, but today it's just laughable, the last of a dying breed, clinging to delusions of white racial superiority and their birthright in Africa. By your skewed logic I could come in your house kick you and your family into the basement and turn the rest of the house into a hotel because I don't think your making the floor space as "prosperous" as it could be. Meanwhile I'll have you chumps clean the toilets and serve the food while I "educate" your children by telling them how worthless they are and how by my blood I'm superior, while lieing to them about their rich cultural heritage under their feet and make it a crime for anyone to speak of it.

GTFO of here with that crap, that kind of mentality is a Joke, and even with the current state of affairs in Zimbabwe, the last laugh iwill be on people who share your additudte.

And I still stand behind Mughabe's decision to kick out the European Occupiers (And on a side note; The Native Americans should have too, they tried and failed, now their all dead. so at least Mugabe did that much for his people ). Now, he went about it wrong. This is what I believe he should have done.

BEFORE kicking them out he should have hired agricultural consultants to survey the land and determine the kind of equipment, materials, and manpower needed to keep the farms running at optimal levels. Then with their aid, create a time share proposal where in the govt would allow foreign agricultural ministries, their corporate representatives, or private companies to bid on the use of the farm land for the next 20-30 years. make 3 or 4 awards dividing up the 70% of Arable land that was in control of the whites.

The Terms of the agreement would allow for the renters to import all their equipment tax free, and export with a set tax (Set by the terms of their award, as one of the deciding factors for the award, how much tax would they be willing to pay for the right to free farm land for X many years)

As well as agricultural OJT and training schools, to educate and employ the Zimbabweans to steadily raise them to self sufficiency. In the interim Export Co-ops could be founded by locals with training paid for by some of the tax dollars, to set up a trade network for the produce from the remaining arable land. Then when the 20-30 years are up and they divide the land amungst the locals or figure out how best to proceed from there, they won't be totally dependent on foreign companies in their country. Another option would be Profit shareing scheme like what happens in many gulf countries like Kuwait, where the govt provides a ton of benifits like Reverse tax, subsidies, housing, medical and more, with the income generated from the oil.

On that note, some of the consultants could have been Thai, agricultural self sufficiency has always been a big thing here.

Further, Export trade licenses should only be given to Zimbabwean's or companies with majority Zimbabwean ownership. And the Tax should have been closely monitored and administratied.

Now this is just a skeletal foundational concept and would need allot of fleshing out. but had he started down this road BEFORE purging his land of the Thieves his people would not have practically lost the use of their nations greatest asset and, subsequently, not have suffered as much.

Far too much nonsense and total incoherence there to refute or even discuss point by point.

Bottom line is that Mugabe inherited a prosperous Economy which was quite literally the breadbasket of Africa and within a few years impoverished anyone he did not murder or expel - unless they were his own cronies.

We can only hope that his passing gives that sad Nation a chance to get back to where it was 30 or more years ago.

Patrick

[MegaRanter]

Thanks zatoichi, I could nt have, even if I tried to put it succinctly.

I am not totally a fan of Mugabe, but comments of page one and two was a bit of a low.

The Thai Chinese don't own all the lands, may be the choice ones. And they invest their profits in Thailand too and no one is bing slaved outright.

The foreign aid to Africa is all a sham. How much can you give a country like Nigeria to make any impact?

[MegaRanter]

What prosperous economy? A few white farmers. They are just mercenaries, both in Zimbabwe and much of that region, the only infrastructure in that country are one that facilitate the exploitation of the land and the. People.

[a99az]

Couldn't of happened to a nicer man.

[cardholder]

Bored with this tw4t now.

Hope he dies soon, then we can go back to the soccer forum.

[Zatoichi]

What prosperous economy? A few white farmers. They are just mercenaries, both in Zimbabwe and much of that region, the only infrastructure in that country are one that facilitate the exploitation of the land and the. People.

Exactly Mega Ranter, and thank you for earlier complement. I'm not a fan of the man either, I recognize he was extremely fallible, and his decision making went from poor to worse after the west imposed sanctions strangled that the life out of any chance of a viable economy. All I'm saying is I appreciate his intentions and I respect were his heart was at when he booted the occupiers.

And yeah, like you said, Funny how these guys here call the economy "prosperous" when some thieving, migrants that barely made up 2% of the population, lorded over their black serfs and kept all the resulting prosperity to them selves while looking down their noses at the indigenous people there. Yet when Mugabe puts his people in charge, he's a F'ing monster. Or when I break down my respect for his intentions and what he should have done as opposed to what he did, I'm "incoherent and nonsensical" ... lol, F' Logic!

But you know whats really cool Mega, is that just like Mugabe, allot of these guys with their antiquated bigotry and their backwards attitudes, have more days behind them then they do in front of them. So our future generations will be blessed not to have to deal with as much of it as we did, and nothing compared to what our parents faced.

[MAJIC]

He had the right idea in the beginning to kick out the land thieving occupiers, but he executed it poorly. Then everything went down a slippery slope, getting worse and worse till the mess that we have now. May the Gods judge him justly. Now that being said I think I may go visit soon to see what kind of opportunities are abound his passing.

His self centred,phoney, moralistic ideas of Justice soon turned into the Poacher turned Gamekeeper,and that is all Dictaters are about, .............. ME FIRST!

No need to put a selfish thief,who murdered his people, on a pedestal,he is worthy of nothing,but contempt, and a well earned place in Hell.

Edited April 11, 2012 by MAJIC

[MAJIC]

What prosperous economy? A few white farmers. They are just mercenaries, both in Zimbabwe and much of that region, the only infrastructure in that country are one that facilitate the exploitation of the land and the. People.

Exactly Mega Ranter, and thank you for earlier complement. I'm not a fan of the man either, I recognize he was extremely fallible, and his decision making went from poor to worse after the west imposed sanctions strangled that the life out of any chance of a viable economy. All I'm saying is I appreciate his intentions and I respect were his heart was at when he booted the occupiers.

And yeah, like you said, Funny how these guys here call the economy "prosperous" when some thieving, migrants that barely made up 2% of the population, lorded over their black serfs and kept all the resulting prosperity to them selves while looking down their noses at the indigenous people there. Yet when Mugabe puts his people in charge, he's a F'ing monster. Or when I break down my respect for his intentions and what he should have done as opposed to what he did, I'm "incoherent and nonsensical" ... lol, F' Logic!

But you know whats really cool Mega, is that just like Mugabe, allot of these guys with their antiquated bigotry and their backwards attitudes, have more days behind them then they do in front of them. So our future generations will be blessed not to have to deal with as much of it as we did, and nothing compared to what our parents faced.

And now the land has gone back to Jungle,and no use to anyone,because the people couldn't didn't want to work, well done!

And since when did Mercenaries,turn Jungle, into arable land ? and over a period of nigh on 200 years? I think you need to brush up on your History,you have as much idea as the "Master Exploiter" himself.

The "Prosperous" land,which you choose to sneer at,was the "Food Basket,of Africa" and the Exports made Rhodesia / Zimbabwe the envy of Africa,before Mugabe F***** it up,and turned it all back to jungle.

Because he thought he could control,White Settlers the same as his own people,so those White Settlers,that were spared slaughter,left the Country to it's ignorant devices........The rest is Sadly History.

Edited April 11, 2012 by MAJIC

[Zatoichi]

What prosperous economy? A few white farmers. They are just mercenaries, both in Zimbabwe and much of that region, the only infrastructure in that country are one that facilitate the exploitation of the land and the. People.

Exactly Mega Ranter, and thank you for earlier complement. I'm not a fan of the man either, I recognize he was extremely fallible, and his decision making went from poor to worse after the west imposed sanctions strangled that the life out of any chance of a viable economy. All I'm saying is I appreciate his intentions and I respect were his heart was at when he booted the occupiers.

And yeah, like you said, Funny how these guys here call the economy "prosperous" when some thieving, migrants that barely made up 2% of the population, lorded over their black serfs and kept all the resulting prosperity to them selves while looking down their noses at the indigenous people there. Yet when Mugabe puts his people in charge, he's a F'ing monster. Or when I break down my respect for his intentions and what he should have done as opposed to what he did, I'm "incoherent and nonsensical" ... lol, F' Logic!

But you know whats really cool Mega, is that just like Mugabe, allot of these guys with their antiquated bigotry and their backwards attitudes, have more days behind them then they do in front of them. So our future generations will be blessed not to have to deal with as much of it as we did, and nothing compared to what our parents faced.

And now the land has gone back to Jungle,and no use to anyone,because the people couldn't didn't want to work, well done!

And since when did Mercenaries,turn Jungle, into arable land ? and over a period of nigh on 200 years? I think you need to brush up on your History,you have as much idea as the "Master Exploiter" himself.

The "Prosperous" land,which you choose to sneer at,was the "Food Basket,of Africa" and the Exports made Rhodesia / Zimbabwe the envy of Africa,before Mugabe F***** it up,and turned it all back to jungle.

Because he thought he could control,White Settlers the same as his own people,so those White Settlers,that were spared slaughter,left the Country to it's ignorant devices........The rest is Sadly History.

Oh I love it, skewing context and draping themselves in the Armour of self righteousness, the tools of the trade for these people eh Mega, you probably have more first hand experience with it than I, are they all like this? MAJIC, I didn't sneer at the development of the Land of Zimbabwe, I sneered at the fact that you called it prosperity on that grounds alone while ignoring that fact that only the people that stole it prospered from it while the Africans, the other 98% of the people there had nothing to show for it. A nation isn't prosperous when only 2% of the people there prosper. The math ain't particularly tough.

Now Mercenaries, them I know very, very, well, with going on 7 years in Iraq & Afghanistan. A merc will build only the infrastructure he needs to complete his mission and and sustain himself. Weather that mission be short term or long term, the European Land thieves that came there to exploit the land were on a mission, one that sadly took 200 years before they were finlay uprooted and the oppressed free to govern themselves.

Now if you wanna bitch and moan about how well a people who were exploited and oppressed govern themselves after 200 years of brutal mercenary rule, then go right ahead and kick folks while their down. But thats not the point I will argue, I know their governing skills need work, it's just been what 20-30years and 1 guy??? that's nothing. America was tearing itself apart damm near 100years on after breaking away from tyranny (only to commit it's own that makes Mugabe's look tame frankly speaking)

[GentlemanJim]

Oh I love it, skewing context and draping themselves in the Armour of self righteousness, the tools of the trade for these people eh Mega, you probably have more first hand experience with it than I, are they all like this? MAJIC, I didn't sneer at the development of the Land of Zimbabwe, I sneered at the fact that you called it prosperity on that grounds alone while ignoring that fact that only the people that stole it prospered from it while the Africans, the other 98% of the people there had nothing to show for it. A nation isn't prosperous when only 2% of the people there prosper. The math ain't particularly tough.

Now Mercenaries, them I know very, very, well, with going on 7 years in Iraq & Afghanistan. A merc will build only the infrastructure he needs to complete his mission and and sustain himself. Weather that mission be short term or long term, the European Land thieves that came there to exploit the land were on a mission, one that sadly took 200 years before they were finlay uprooted and the oppressed free to govern themselves.

Now if you wanna bitch and moan about how well a people who were exploited and oppressed govern themselves after 200 years of brutal mercenary rule, then go right ahead and kick folks while their down. But thats not the point I will argue, I know their governing skills need work, it's just been what 20-30years and 1 guy??? that's nothing. America was tearing itself apart damm near 100years on after breaking away from tyranny (only to commit it's own that makes Mugabe's look tame frankly speaking)

Well, it seems you need to take a bit of leave mate as you seem to be a bit too angry about everything!

The 'mercs' as you have labelled them who settled in Rhodesia did a little more than build only the infrastructure needed to sustain themselves and complete their mission didn't they. They built an entire nation from jungle. City's and skyscrapers.

Your swearing and use of the bigot term is laughable in its self. Not only does it detract from your argument but it in fact highlights you as the bigot. No doubt you are the kind of guy that thinks it is in order for the UK Police to have a black police officers federation, but its racist to have a white police officers federation. Your argument has no rational backbone to it, and you and Megaranter can carry on giving each other a stroke as much as you like, it does not change anything. Mugabe was a murdering meglomaniac,

Can you explain why he has billions stashed in Switzerland or was that part of his failing to come up with a plan before he started killing white AND black farmers as well. Your concept for the retaking of Zimbabwe seems fine, with one problem area, it was Mugabe in charge. He has never had one single intent to care for the country and its people. The country could have rode out any sanctions and there was no need for anyone to starve as they had the means to be completely self sustainable in terms of food. He didn't make his error overnight now did he, as you seem to suggest, he had about 7-8 years to fix the problems and everyone warned him, trouble is as much as you seem to like the fella he didn't give a toss for anything other than his bank balance, Open your eyes.

Smart as a Guard but twice as hard!

Edited April 11, 2012 by GentlemanJim

[MAJIC]

What prosperous economy? A few white farmers. They are just mercenaries, both in Zimbabwe and much of that region, the only infrastructure in that country are one that facilitate the exploitation of the land and the. People.

Exactly Mega Ranter, and thank you for earlier complement. I'm not a fan of the man either, I recognize he was extremely fallible, and his decision making went from poor to worse after the west imposed sanctions strangled that the life out of any chance of a viable economy. All I'm saying is I appreciate his intentions and I respect were his heart was at when he booted the occupiers.

And yeah, like you said, Funny how these guys here call the economy "prosperous" when some thieving, migrants that barely made up 2% of the population, lorded over their black serfs and kept all the resulting prosperity to them selves while looking down their noses at the indigenous people there. Yet when Mugabe puts his people in charge, he's a F'ing monster. Or when I break down my respect for his intentions and what he should have done as opposed to what he did, I'm "incoherent and nonsensical" ... lol, F' Logic!

But you know whats really cool Mega, is that just like Mugabe, allot of these guys with their antiquated bigotry and their backwards attitudes, have more days behind them then they do in front of them. So our future generations will be blessed not to have to deal with as much of it as we did, and nothing compared to what our parents faced.

And now the land has gone back to Jungle,and no use to anyone,because the people couldn't didn't want to work, well done!

And since when did Mercenaries,turn Jungle, into arable land ? and over a period of nigh on 200 years? I think you need to brush up on your History,you have as much idea as the "Master Exploiter" himself.

The "Prosperous" land,which you choose to sneer at,was the "Food Basket,of Africa" and the Exports made Rhodesia / Zimbabwe the envy of Africa,before Mugabe F***** it up,and turned it all back to jungle.

Because he thought he could control,White Settlers the same as his own people,so those White Settlers,that were spared slaughter,left the Country to it's ignorant devices........The rest is Sadly History.

Oh I love it, skewing context and draping themselves in the Armour of self righteousness, the tools of the trade for these people eh Mega, you probably have more first hand experience with it than I, are they all like this? MAJIC, I didn't sneer at the development of the Land of Zimbabwe, I sneered at the fact that you called it prosperity on that grounds alone while ignoring that fact that only the people that stole it prospered from it while the Africans, the other 98% of the people there had nothing to show for it. A nation isn't prosperous when only 2% of the people there prosper. The math ain't particularly tough.

Now Mercenaries, them I know very, very, well, with going on 7 years in Iraq & Afghanistan. A merc will build only the infrastructure he needs to complete his mission and and sustain himself. Weather that mission be short term or long term, the European Land thieves that came there to exploit the land were on a mission, one that sadly took 200 years before they were finlay uprooted and the oppressed free to govern themselves.

Now if you wanna bitch and moan about how well a people who were exploited and oppressed govern themselves after 200 years of brutal mercenary rule, then go right ahead and kick folks while their down. But thats not the point I will argue, I know their governing skills need work, it's just been what 20-30years and 1 guy??? that's nothing. America was tearing itself apart damm near 100years on after breaking away from tyranny (only to commit it's own that makes Mugabe's look tame frankly speaking)

Do read some History,you don't get it, 20-30 years of Magabe rule has made the plight of Zimbabwians,worse not better.

[MAJIC]

Oh I love it, skewing context and draping themselves in the Armour of self righteousness, the tools of the trade for these people eh Mega, you probably have more first hand experience with it than I, are they all like this? MAJIC, I didn't sneer at the development of the Land of Zimbabwe, I sneered at the fact that you called it prosperity on that grounds alone while ignoring that fact that only the people that stole it prospered from it while the Africans, the other 98% of the people there had nothing to show for it. A nation isn't prosperous when only 2% of the people there prosper. The math ain't particularly tough.

Now Mercenaries, them I know very, very, well, with going on 7 years in Iraq & Afghanistan. A merc will build only the infrastructure he needs to complete his mission and and sustain himself. Weather that mission be short term or long term, the European Land thieves that came there to exploit the land were on a mission, one that sadly took 200 years before they were finlay uprooted and the oppressed free to govern themselves.

Now if you wanna bitch and moan about how well a people who were exploited and oppressed govern themselves after 200 years of brutal mercenary rule, then go right ahead and kick folks while their down. But thats not the point I will argue, I know their governing skills need work, it's just been what 20-30years and 1 guy??? that's nothing. America was tearing itself apart damm near 100years on after breaking away from tyranny (only to commit it's own that makes Mugabe's look tame frankly speaking)

Well, it seems you need to take a bit of leave mate as you seem to be a bit too angry about everything!

The 'mercs' as you have labelled them who settled in Rhodesia did a little more than build only the infrastructure needed to sustain themselves and complete their mission didn't they. They built an entire nation from jungle. City's and skyscrapers.

Your swearing and use of the bigot term is laughable in its self. Not only does it detract from your argument but it in fact highlights you as the bigot. No doubt you are the kind of guy that thinks it is in order for the UK Police to have a black police officers federation, but its racist to have a white police officers federation. Your argument has no rational backbone to it, and you and Megaranter can carry on giving each other a stroke as much as you like, it does not change anything. Mugabe was a murdering meglomaniac,

Can you explain why he has billions stashed in Switzerland or was that part of his failing to come up with a plan before he started killing white AND black farmers as well. Your concept for the retaking of Zimbabwe seems fine, with one problem area, it was Mugabe in charge. He has never had one single intent to care for the country and its people. The country could have rode out any sanctions and there was no need for anyone to starve as they had the means to be completely self sustainable in terms of food. He didn't make his error overnight now did he, as you seem to suggest, he had about 7-8 years to fix the problems and everyone warned him, trouble is as much as you seem to like the fella he didn't give a toss for anything other than his bank balance, Open your eyes.

Bang on the button Jim,but how do you convince those that have seen the Saviour/Hero,behave even worse than those that run the Country sucessfully before.

The death of a hero with feet of clay,is always traumatic and hard to accept,and face up to the reality,of wasted blind devotion.

[GentlemanJim]

Oh I love it, skewing context and draping themselves in the Armour of self righteousness, the tools of the trade for these people eh Mega, you probably have more first hand experience with it than I, are they all like this? MAJIC, I didn't sneer at the development of the Land of Zimbabwe, I sneered at the fact that you called it prosperity on that grounds alone while ignoring that fact that only the people that stole it prospered from it while the Africans, the other 98% of the people there had nothing to show for it. A nation isn't prosperous when only 2% of the people there prosper. The math ain't particularly tough.

Now Mercenaries, them I know very, very, well, with going on 7 years in Iraq & Afghanistan. A merc will build only the infrastructure he needs to complete his mission and and sustain himself. Weather that mission be short term or long term, the European Land thieves that came there to exploit the land were on a mission, one that sadly took 200 years before they were finlay uprooted and the oppressed free to govern themselves.

Now if you wanna bitch and moan about how well a people who were exploited and oppressed govern themselves after 200 years of brutal mercenary rule, then go right ahead and kick folks while their down. But thats not the point I will argue, I know their governing skills need work, it's just been what 20-30years and 1 guy??? that's nothing. America was tearing itself apart damm near 100years on after breaking away from tyranny (only to commit it's own that makes Mugabe's look tame frankly speaking)

Well, it seems you need to take a bit of leave mate as you seem to be a bit too angry about everything!

The 'mercs' as you have labelled them who settled in Rhodesia did a little more than build only the infrastructure needed to sustain themselves and complete their mission didn't they. They built an entire nation from jungle. City's and skyscrapers.

Your swearing and use of the bigot term is laughable in its self. Not only does it detract from your argument but it in fact highlights you as the bigot. No doubt you are the kind of guy that thinks it is in order for the UK Police to have a black police officers federation, but its racist to have a white police officers federation. Your argument has no rational backbone to it, and you and Megaranter can carry on giving each other a stroke as much as you like, it does not change anything. Mugabe was a murdering meglomaniac,

Can you explain why he has billions stashed in Switzerland or was that part of his failing to come up with a plan before he started killing white AND black farmers as well. Your concept for the retaking of Zimbabwe seems fine, with one problem area, it was Mugabe in charge. He has never had one single intent to care for the country and its people. The country could have rode out any sanctions and there was no need for anyone to starve as they had the means to be completely self sustainable in terms of food. He didn't make his error overnight now did he, as you seem to suggest, he had about 7-8 years to fix the problems and everyone warned him, trouble is as much as you seem to like the fella he didn't give a toss for anything other than his bank balance, Open your eyes.

Bang on the button Jim,but how do you convince those that have seen the Saviour/Hero,behave even worse than those that run the Country sucessfully before.

The death of a hero with feet of clay,is always traumatic and hard to accept,and face up to the reality,of wasted blind devotion.

You don't know how clever that is

[MAJIC]

Thanks zatoichi, I could nt have, even if I tried to put it succinctly.

I am not totally a fan of Mugabe, but comments of page one and two was a bit of a low.

The Thai Chinese don't own all the lands, may be the choice ones. And they invest their profits in Thailand too and no one is bing slaved outright.

The foreign aid to Africa is all a sham. How much can you give a country like Nigeria to make any impact?

What utter nonsense,what makes you think the world owes you a living,and you and your country deserve any aid,at all???

[Zatoichi]

Point to anywhere in any of my posts where I said I like Mugabe. Try and switch the focus all you want, but as I said, I'm not a fan of Mugabe (perfectly correct intentions in purging the parasites), but being free to run your own country the way you wish is always better for the citizenry in the long run than being controlled by a outside occupying force.

Easier? No.

Safer? No.

More immediately prosperous? No.

But better without a doubt, yes. Zimbabwe's people will form the govt they desire if they are willing to pay the blood price. America did when it brushed the dirt off it's shouldures and broke free of the British. Freedom, security, prosperity is not free. They must be willing to fight, bleed and die in the struggle to forge a stronger, safer, wealthier nation. Kicking out the occupiers was just the first step, Mugabe did that for them, at a costly price, but It's in their hands now. And just like in America were we had tons of internal strife, systematic genocide of the indigenous people, and even a bloody civil war, they will have to decide what they are willing to pay in blood to have the country they want. But it will be their choice, and no one else's thanks to Mugabe.

Oh and to answer a few questions...

Jim, A "black cops union" in England??? I have no Idea, I'm American, I know in the States we have Irish Cop clubs, Italian Cop clubs, no one makes a fuss, We have Black cop clubs and I guess we would have Mandingo, Ashante, & Ibo clubs too if our history wasn't stolen from us, so Black will have to suffice for here. And it dose. I don't see your point with having a problem with that...must be a UK thing.

[Zatoichi]

Oh I love it, skewing context and draping themselves in the Armour of self righteousness, the tools of the trade for these people eh Mega, you probably have more first hand experience with it than I, are they all like this? MAJIC, I didn't sneer at the development of the Land of Zimbabwe, I sneered at the fact that you called it prosperity on that grounds alone while ignoring that fact that only the people that stole it prospered from it while the Africans, the other 98% of the people there had nothing to show for it. A nation isn't prosperous when only 2% of the people there prosper. The math ain't particularly tough.

Now Mercenaries, them I know very, very, well, with going on 7 years in Iraq & Afghanistan. A merc will build only the infrastructure he needs to complete his mission and and sustain himself. Weather that mission be short term or long term, the European Land thieves that came there to exploit the land were on a mission, one that sadly took 200 years before they were finlay uprooted and the oppressed free to govern themselves.

Now if you wanna bitch and moan about how well a people who were exploited and oppressed govern themselves after 200 years of brutal mercenary rule, then go right ahead and kick folks while their down. But thats not the point I will argue, I know their governing skills need work, it's just been what 20-30years and 1 guy??? that's nothing. America was tearing itself apart damm near 100years on after breaking away from tyranny (only to commit it's own that makes Mugabe's look tame frankly speaking)

Well, it seems you need to take a bit of leave mate as you seem to be a bit too angry about everything!

The 'mercs' as you have labelled them who settled in Rhodesia did a little more than build only the infrastructure needed to sustain themselves and complete their mission didn't they. They built an entire nation from jungle. City's and skyscrapers.

Your swearing and use of the bigot term is laughable in its self. Not only does it detract from your argument but it in fact highlights you as the bigot. No doubt you are the kind of guy that thinks it is in order for the UK Police to have a black police officers federation, but its racist to have a white police officers federation. Your argument has no rational backbone to it, and you and Megaranter can carry on giving each other a stroke as much as you like, it does not change anything. Mugabe was a murdering meglomaniac,

Can you explain why he has billions stashed in Switzerland or was that part of his failing to come up with a plan before he started killing white AND black farmers as well. Your concept for the retaking of Zimbabwe seems fine, with one problem area, it was Mugabe in charge. He has never had one single intent to care for the country and its people. The country could have rode out any sanctions and there was no need for anyone to starve as they had the means to be completely self sustainable in terms of food. He didn't make his error overnight now did he, as you seem to suggest, he had about 7-8 years to fix the problems and everyone warned him, trouble is as much as you seem to like the fella he didn't give a toss for anything other than his bank balance, Open your eyes.

Smart as a Guard but twice as hard!

Oh and just a quick address to that statement. Yeah right!, they DELEGATED the work and claimed it for themselves after the African's built it with their blood sweat and tears. You Guys crack me up, if it weren't for the fact that Zimbabwe is free from you guys I'd be offended.

[Scott]

The topic is beginning to move from the issue of Mugabe and Zimbabwe to personal jibes and comments about other posters. If it continues, you will find your posts deleted and your posting rights suspended.

Stick to the topic.

[GentlemanJim]

Zatoichi

You seem to be getting a little confused with history, not an uncommon thing in certain parts of America Now where do we start?

You say

but being free to run your own country the way you wish is always better for the citizenry in the long run than being controlled by a outside occupying force.

Can we send that message over to Kim Jong Un and the starving illiterate people of North Korea, and once that message has been sent lets define the difference between the kim jong dynasty and the North Korean people and Mugabe and the starving of zimbabwe? I think the Korean had a better grip on economics, thats about it.

Nations need to move forward through political process not by murdering the very people that have built you a nation.

Your rantings are indicative of the fact that you fail to truly understand the real nature of Africa, this by the way is a very common trait amongst African Americans. Tribal slaughter has been a way of life in Africa for a thousand years, something African Americans have either forgotten, choose to forget or have no idea about. The 'occupiers' in the case of Africa in most cases put a stop to that slaughter. Sure there were some bad asses about, non worse than King Leopold and the Belgian occupations, a nation that ruthlessly raped Africa for the resource rubber. The fact is though that Africa had little chance of progressing because the number 1 thing on the mind of any Chiefian was to subdue and kill other tribes (essentially that remains the same). It was the African Chieftans and the Arabs that were responsible for the slave trade, not the Brits, Americans or Dutch. The Chieftans would refuse to trade Gold, Ivory and spices with the Europeans and Americans unless they also took boatloads of slaves.......fact! I once witnessed a very sad and harrowing documentary on 6 African Americans who were so outraged with the slave traders that they went back to their 'homeland' to drum up support for an international apology. One woman fell down to her knees crying when she finally realised that, as she said 'oh my God, we did it to ourselves, how could we have done such a thing'!. The truth is that Occupiers, despite their undoubted cruelty put a stop to the slaughter that African tribes dished out on each other and gave time for change.

Look at the state of Africa now. Kenya, Zimbabwe, South Africa, all over, all returning to the tribal system, every bit as bad as apartheid. The Africans missed what the Europeans had had for 2000 years , something that had been given us under a rule of tyranny by the Romans...a system of Law and Order.

Mugabe has NEVER had the desire to get rid of the 'occupiers' and build his nation further. He has done the normal tribal Chieftan thing of taking everything for himself and killing all those who oppose. The killing of white African (yes that's just like Black American!) farmers has been nothing compared to the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of his own countrymen (but different tribes sadly for them).

By the way you didn't have your history stolen from you, history took a different path as it always does eventually. There would not be Mandingo, Ashanti and Ibo clubs in the US, and there would be very few 'Black Americans'. Don't you understand that out of all the suffering of the slave trade in Africans, Chinese and Indians it paved the way for a Global multicultural society, which would not exist today without previous historical events. Your anger is misdirected and futile and your support for some greater good in the actions of Mugabe is truly ill considered.

You seem to be saying that White African farmers have no right to call themselves African, yet they are 5th or 6th generation. If that is the case are you American? Are you willing to hand in your passport and denounce your nationality and return to your 'homeland'? No I guess not! You cannot make current generations responsible for the sins of their great great grandfathers.

Edited April 12, 2012 by GentlemanJim

[harada]

Nothing on television about it. Have any of you seen anything?

A waste of good airtime.

[Yunla]

Murder is murder, regardless of if you shoot the victims dead, or you take all their food & medicines away. Its murder either way & I'm sure this mass-murderer will recieve absolute justice upon death.

[waza]

Whatever you opinion everyone can agree that the current situation is down to the present government. Sanctions are not the reason they cant produce enough food to feed their population and whitey is gone so they cant use that excuse anymore. Accept that Bobby stuffed the country up and once he is gone its up to the Zimbabwe people to fix it up.

[Colin Yai]

Zatoichi

You seem to be getting a little confused with history, not an uncommon thing in certain parts of America Now where do we start?

You say

but being free to run your own country the way you wish is always better for the citizenry in the long run than being controlled by a outside occupying force.

Can we send that message over to Kim Jong Un and the starving illiterate people of North Korea, and once that message has been sent lets define the difference between the kim jong dynasty and the North Korean people and Mugabe and the starving of zimbabwe? I think the Korean had a better grip on economics, thats about it.

Nations need to move forward through political process not by murdering the very people that have built you a nation.

Your rantings are indicative of the fact that you fail to truly understand the real nature of Africa, this by the way is a very common trait amongst African Americans. Tribal slaughter has been a way of life in Africa for a thousand years, something African Americans have either forgotten, choose to forget or have no idea about. The 'occupiers' in the case of Africa in most cases put a stop to that slaughter. Sure there were some bad asses about, non worse than King Leopold and the Belgian occupations, a nation that ruthlessly raped Africa for the resource rubber. The fact is though that Africa had little chance of progressing because the number 1 thing on the mind of any Chiefian was to subdue and kill other tribes (essentially that remains the same). It was the African Chieftans and the Arabs that were responsible for the slave trade, not the Brits, Americans or Dutch. The Chieftans would refuse to trade Gold, Ivory and spices with the Europeans and Americans unless they also took boatloads of slaves.......fact! I once witnessed a very sad and harrowing documentary on 6 African Americans who were so outraged with the slave traders that they went back to their 'homeland' to drum up support for an international apology. One woman fell down to her knees crying when she finally realised that, as she said 'oh my God, we did it to ourselves, how could we have done such a thing'!. The truth is that Occupiers, despite their undoubted cruelty put a stop to the slaughter that African tribes dished out on each other and gave time for change.

Look at the state of Africa now. Kenya, Zimbabwe, South Africa, all over, all returning to the tribal system, every bit as bad as apartheid. The Africans missed what the Europeans had had for 2000 years , something that had been given us under a rule of tyranny by the Romans...a system of Law and Order.

Mugabe has NEVER had the desire to get rid of the 'occupiers' and build his nation further. He has done the normal tribal Chieftan thing of taking everything for himself and killing all those who oppose. The killing of white African (yes that's just like Black American!) farmers has been nothing compared to the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of his own countrymen (but different tribes sadly for them).

By the way you didn't have your history stolen from you, history took a different path as it always does eventually. There would not be Mandingo, Ashanti and Ibo clubs in the US, and there would be very few 'Black Americans'. Don't you understand that out of all the suffering of the slave trade in Africans, Chinese and Indians it paved the way for a Global multicultural society, which would not exist today without previous historical events. Your anger is misdirected and futile and your support for some greater good in the actions of Mugabe is truly ill considered.

You seem to be saying that White African farmers have no right to call themselves African, yet they are 5th or 6th generation. If that is the case are you American? Are you willing to hand in your passport and denounce your nationality and return to your 'homeland'? No I guess not! You cannot make current generations responsible for the sins of their great great grandfathers.

Of your Many excellent posts Jim ,this one has to be right up there as one of your better works!