Considering New Training Shedule

[robblok]

Hi,

I posted it here to get some feedback from the guys that workout too.

So far i have been doing great on 5 x 5

doing squat 5 x 5 with 110 kg (deep squats), benchpress 5 x 5 with 125 kg and deadlifts with 155 kg. Doing this on monday with the weights mentioned wednesday with 80% of those weights and friday with 100%. I have been increasing those weights with 2,5 of 5 kg per week. I made great progress in strenght and muscle even though im on a diet. But now the calory restrictions and probably the end of my easy strenght gains i feel tired. Its actually hell to do a program like this because IMHO its much heavier then split. Because your always doing deadlifts and squat these are killer exercises. I think i need to slow down a bit for a while and recover because i almost cant get extra weights on deadlift and i dread exercising a bit.

Now im thinking of going back to a split training 4 times a week maybe 5. But the problem is when i do that i wont be hitting the muscles as much as i am now. I have done this in the past but for some reason now i think it won't give me the progress i was making with the 5 x5. I am looking here to get more muscle or at least not loose muscle while on my diet. I was thinking of doing every muscle group 1,5 times a week. Would that be enough ? I am also considering a break from deadlifts because i hurt a bit in my upper back. It does not prevent me from training or hurt too much but its always good to be injury free. But deadlift is one of the major muscle builders. Your views please.

Goal is to loose an other 8 kg i lost 10kg already. The last 8 will be hard because that will bring my bodyfat percentage low enough for good visible abs (or so i hope). I see my upper abs clearer now still some fat on them. The lower abs also need to loose weight and of course some in my sides and back.

I am mainly hoping to get Tropo to answer here and there are some other people knowledgeable too. I am thinking of training in the 8 -10 rep range. I do know enough about training myself but having some others give their opinion might help and i might have overlooked something.

[tropo]

There's a lot to cover. I'd like to start off with this... debate....

You said: "But deadlift is one of the major muscle builders. Your views please."

I know we've touched on this before, but I don't believe deadlifts are a good muscle builder as far as building a classically aesthetic physique is concerned. I've done a lot of deadlifting in my time (I started out at an olympic lifter), but never gained anything noticeable from it other than a thick midsection.

I fail to see how it would develop traps when I'm already shrugging with up to 400 lbs to activate the traps (with very little stress on the spine as I'm upright). I can't see how it would develop any upper back musculature (lats, romboids, teres minor, teres major etc). It doesn't build arms or shoulders. It would develop some thickness in the mid and lower back region. They will help with development of the leg biceps and glutes to a limited extent, but squats will do that far more effectively. The prime mover in the deadlift are the erector spinae muscles, but these can be developed more safely using other movements as the deadlift is probably the most dangerous lift in the gym if heavy weights are being shifted.

My question to you would be: If it is such a good muscle developer - what are you actually developing?

It's almost folk lore on bodybuilding forums that deadlifts must be done - but you'll never see many people actually doing them and most that you do see doing them have below par physiques probably because they believe the folk lore. Conversely there are a lot of people with good physiques who never deadlift.

My advice would be not to do them unless you're a competition powerlifter.

Don't feel bad about giving them up Rob. You won't miss them.

I did just this at the end of February. As mentioned a few months ago, I was doing a variant of the standard deadlift - the RDL (Romanian deadlift). I walked out of the gym after doing a few sets of light squats because on the last set I pinched a nerve in the lumbar spine in the bottom position - which is a very scary thing to happen. I discovered that it was the RDL which was messing up my lower back, not the squats and my back is feeling better now than it has for years. I'm still tentative on the squats but slowing increasing the weights again. The strange thing is, my back always felt ok after doing them (I was doing around 100kg x 10 this year - previously up to 150 x 10 which is a lot of weight for this particular movement)... I was unaware that RDL was the exercise causing my back stiffness.

Edited April 12, 2012 by tropo

[tropo]

"I was thinking of doing every muscle group 1,5 times a week. Would that be enough?"

Absolutely!

My split is a 4-day split, over a 5, 6 or 7 day period. It's averaging 6 days unless I need an extra rest day.

1: Legs

2: Chest & triceps

3: Back & biceps

4: Shoulders

Abs get added in 2 or 3 times per week but using different exercises on different days.

These 4 days are not consecutive. Every 3rd day is a cardio only day. I was doing 3 days in a row then a cardio day, but now it's 2 weight days then a cardio day. I also do cardio on the weight days. If I need a rest, I take a day off at any point in the cycle.

There's a lot of crossover training with split training. For example, your shoulders are being worked on back and chest days. This crossover can lead to overuse injuries in the shoulder girdle, therefore I NEVER work chest and shoulders on consecutive days. In my cycle there is ALWAYS 2 days rest from direct shoulder work after a shoulder or chest workout.

As you can see.... Legs - chest (push) - back (pull) - shoulders (push)

Biceps and triceps will get overworked if you put them on separate days from chest and back. Elbow injuries are very common and hard to fix because you use them whenever you pick up a weight.

Legs - these only get worked once in a cycle, but my legs are used extensively in my daily cardio, so they get plenty of extra work. If you're not doing a lot of cardio you could add some light leg work on a cardio day.

To be continued...

Edited April 12, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

You are doing almost what i always did in my split but i usually put shoulders with legs. Not ideal but made things easier. I don't know why i hesitate about going back to split, must be because i never saw so much progress muscle and strength then when i did 5 x 5 and there i was hitting my muscles 3 times a week.

But a split was definitely mentally and physical easier to do more variation and you did not have to go up in weight all the time.

[tropo]

You are doing almost what i always did in my split but i usually put shoulders with legs. Not ideal but made things easier. I don't know why i hesitate about going back to split, must be because i never saw so much progress muscle and strength then when i did 5 x 5 and there i was hitting my muscles 3 times a week.

But a split was definitely mentally and physical easier to do more variation and you did not have to go up in weight all the time.

Strength is relative to what exercises you are doing. Your program is improving only 3 movements. In my split I'm improving the strength of about 50 movements. It's the old SAID principle - specific adaptation to imposed demands. For example, you certainly won't improve pullup (or pulldown strength) or rowing strength with bench press or deadlifts. I consider pulldown and rowing strength more important than bench press strength. I also prefer to work on overhead pressing strength than bench press strength. I love pushing heavy weights skyward - I developed this love during my olympic lifting days. That must be why I can overhead press more than guys who can bench press more than I can.

In the split you have to be careful not to overtrain as you are focusing an entire workout on a few bodyparts.

The reason why I put shoulders on a separate workout is that I consider well developed deltoids to be the ultimate requirement for a good physique. Nothing stands out quite like a pair of well developed shoulders.

It's a difficult bodypart to place in a weekly routine without causing some conflict, because the front delts take such a heavy hit on chest day. If I ever place it with another bodypart, it gets to go with back and I then place biceps and triceps with chest. I never do any other bodyparts on a leg day other than a few ab movements.

[Shurup]

Here is my routine Rob, it's somewhat similar to Tropo's but quite different from yours, hope it will give you some ideas.

- Chest, Triceps

- Biceps, ABS

- Legs

- Off

- Shoulders

- Back, ABS

- Cardio

I normally do 30-40 min cardio every day after the weight lifting except my Off day and my just Cardio day where I shoot for 1 hr.

I go by how my body feels so I may occasionly add an extra day off or drop cardio after the weight lifting or drop weight lifting and go just for cardio if I have to drag my ass to the gym (easier to push myself doing cardio that weights if I don't feel like working out).

Rather than doing 5x5 I go for 8-10 x 4 (depending on muscle group).

[robblok]

Tropo,

To be honest my pullups did not increase strenght did not increase. However my biceps and triceps strenght did. Don't forget with deadlift you work many muscles. I will see but im really leaning to going back to split because i need a change and i need to do less as i did before. Its just not feasible increasing all the time. The calorie deficit has something to do with it.

I must say my shoulders are a lot stronger and bigger since i started this program also my lats and back are a lot bigger. The girlfriend commented on it and i saw it in the mirror. So it did good, a lot more then i expected. But mentally and physically its just not going to work for now. I think once i start a split i will see increases in strength again (good for my mood), maybe some increases in size too. Reason for this is as you said there are gains to be made after not having done split for a long time.

[glbv]

i agree with tropo, starting strength is a great program but i prefer a individual muscle group split, im 5 days a week, m,t,t,f,sun. Back/forarms, chest/tris, shoulders,bis, legs. I hit legs or back twice whichever one im feeling. Personally i make better gains with this over working the same things 3 times a week as many do. But imo arms never really deserve their own day, they are an after thought of mine. They come with doing everything heavy, overhead presses, bench, vbar pulldowns, these will all build thick arms.

All about what works for you and for me 3x a week of the same routine also became quite boring.

Edited April 13, 2012 by glbv

[JuliaThazinMayerhofer]

Doesn't it also depend on your individual strengths/weaknesses of your body? What I mean is that if for example shoulders are lacking behind I would throw in a few extra shoulder exercises (usually supersets or circuits) on an arms day. Same with harmstrings, I also do some curls or Romanian dead lifts on my back day. My back on the other hand is pretty big already so I only do it once a week now. I also split into 5 days now and this got me the best results so far.

Where you guys work out?

[robblok]

ropo

Back to deadlifts i will tell you what it did for me. It gave me a ticker upper back.. more lats and my shoulders got bigger. (shoulders might be because of all the bench presses). It also helped my abs a lot plus my back. I definitely believe its an exercise that is should keep in my schedule. I also am a firm believer it helps keep your testosterone levels up as does squat. There is scientific evidence pointing towards that.

[robblok]

Doesn't it also depend on your individual strengths/weaknesses of your body? What I mean is that if for example shoulders are lacking behind I would throw in a few extra shoulder exercises (usually supersets or circuits) on an arms day. Same with harmstrings, I also do some curls or Romanian dead lifts on my back day. My back on the other hand is pretty big already so I only do it once a week now. I also split into 5 days now and this got me the best results so far.

Where you guys work out?

I got my own small gym at home. (power rack and some machines and loads of free weights). I dont have the feeling that anything is behind in my body. I just need to loose more fat to make everything look better.

[tropo]

Doesn't it also depend on your individual strengths/weaknesses of your body? What I mean is that if for example shoulders are lacking behind I would throw in a few extra shoulder exercises (usually supersets or circuits) on an arms day. Same with harmstrings, I also do some curls or Romanian dead lifts on my back day. My back on the other hand is pretty big already so I only do it once a week now. I also split into 5 days now and this got me the best results so far.

Where you guys work out?

I've never seen deltoids too big - proportionately to the rest of the physique that is. You often see arms too big, chest, legs and even lats but deltoids are lacking in most bodybuilders.

Apart from shoulders, yes, your program will depend on your strengths and weaknesses.

[tropo]

ropo

Back to deadlifts i will tell you what it did for me. It gave me a ticker upper back.. more lats and my shoulders got bigger. (shoulders might be because of all the bench presses). It also helped my abs a lot plus my back. I definitely believe its an exercise that is should keep in my schedule. I also am a firm believer it helps keep your testosterone levels up as does squat. There is scientific evidence pointing towards that.

Still sceptical about your upper back and shoulder growth from deadlifts ....

But anyway, deadlifts, squats and bench press are very easy to incorporate into a split routine. You can do your deadlifts as part of your back routine - which is where I used to place them before I gave them away. If you do it right you can even gain strength in these lifts on your new routine. Just do some 5 rep sets after you've warmed up - too easy!

Because you're not so focused on increasing your lifts and because you're not doing them as often as on your current routine you may be pleasantly surprised to see gains. The supplementary exercises may help to improve your strength in these lifts.

Edited April 13, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

ropo

Back to deadlifts i will tell you what it did for me. It gave me a ticker upper back.. more lats and my shoulders got bigger. (shoulders might be because of all the bench presses). It also helped my abs a lot plus my back. I definitely believe its an exercise that is should keep in my schedule. I also am a firm believer it helps keep your testosterone levels up as does squat. There is scientific evidence pointing towards that.

Still sceptical about your upper back and shoulder growth from deadlifts ....

But anyway, deadlifts, squats and bench press are very easy to incorporate into a split routine. You can do your deadlifts as part of your back routine - which is where I used to place them before I gave them away. If you do it right you can even gain strength in these lifts on your new routine. Just do some 5 rep sets after you've warmed up - too easy!

Because you're not so focused on increasing your lifts and because you're not doing them as often as on your current routine you may be pleasantly surprised to see gains. The supplementary exercises may help to improve your strength in these lifts.

Tropo, you can be as skeptical as you want about it. It happened, i would not stay on a program that gave me only strength gains. My upper back has become so much thicker the gf commented on it. That is not something she usually does.

Yesterday i did split for the first time in ages.I am feeling real sore today and i love it. I will see how this works out but change can be a good thing.

Edited April 14, 2012 by robblok

[tropo]

She's was probably seeing more muscle as a result of your diet (more definition). It's quite normal to appear bigger when you strip fat because muscular definition gives the illusion of size.

Upper back muscles are activated when doing the bench press. They are required to stabilize the shoulder joint (stop it from caving in).

[robblok]

To be honest Tropo i don't think so. I seriously have a bigger back now and yes if you strip of fat it looks better. Maybe that deadlift did not work for you but i know many for who it does. Don't forget the influence on your testosterone levels.

[tropo]

To be honest Tropo i don't think so. I seriously have a bigger back now and yes if you strip of fat it looks better. Maybe that deadlift did not work for you but i know many for who it does. Don't forget the influence on your testosterone levels.

It's not so much that it didn't work for me, it's just that I have better, more direct, less destructive exercises in my arsenal to target the necessary muscle groups. I did deadlifts to develop strength in the torso, but I never considered it to be an affective muscle builder although it may develop some muscle size in the trunk - probably to the detriment of a nicely sculpted mid-section because it does increase the size of the obliques - which is not a good thing for an aesthetic waist. This is not trivial because back when I used to do a lot of heavy lifting from the floor as part of an olympic lifting program my obliques were too big and spoiled my mid-section.

If I was going to coach someone to do deadlifts, I would recommend doing them off a rack rather than from the dead, floor position because it is safer for the lumbar spine but as a bodybuilding exercise they're just an energy waster and a high risk movement.

You only have to look at the physique of powerlifters to see what type of physique you'll end up with if you only do the big 3. Of course, as a powerlifter fat is your friend, not your enemy. You will lose strength when you lose fat - there's no way around it.

Edited April 14, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

@tropo,

To be honest there are some powerlifters that look great and a lot that dont. But like you said many of those need fat. I am of the opinion that it does not really matter how you work a muscle the shape that it will have if it enlarges is determined by your genes. Not by the exercises you do. I doubt you can shape your biceps differently by doing other exercises. Once its developed at its max its just that. You cant change the way it looks.

Muscles can only grow and how they grow is determined by your genes.

I do believe that you are right about a larger mid section from deadlift because you really get a pair of abs and a strong lower back from it. If that means they are to big for you so be it. But you never made a remark about the testosterone thing. Its proven that big compound exercises give you a big rush of testosterone. Your biceps isolation curl does not.

[tropo]

@tropo,

To be honest there are some powerlifters that look great and a lot that dont. But like you said many of those need fat. I am of the opinion that it does not really matter how you work a muscle the shape that it will have if it enlarges is determined by your genes. Not by the exercises you do. I doubt you can shape your biceps differently by doing other exercises. Once its developed at its max its just that. You cant change the way it looks.

Muscles can only grow and how they grow is determined by your genes.

I do believe that you are right about a larger mid section from deadlift because you really get a pair of abs and a strong lower back from it. If that means they are to big for you so be it. But you never made a remark about the testosterone thing. Its proven that big compound exercises give you a big rush of testosterone. Your biceps isolation curl does not.

I didn't comment on it because testosterone stimulation is a theory which I don't prescribe to - and LOL, I didn't want to get into another heavy debate. Even if there is a stimulation, it's extremely minor and nothing which I would notice.

Even if it is a fact, isolation exercises are hardly the only other option if one doesn't want to do deadlifts. Most back, chest, shoulder exercises and squats are compound exercises.

Yes, I agree you can't shape a particular muscle but you can shape a body region. For example, the upper back has a lot of different muscles which you can stimulate in ways to improve the overall shape of your back. If you only do rowing movements you will limit the width of your back (lat width) and only develop thickness. If you only do pulldown movements you will end up wider with no thickness. If you only train biceps to the exclusion of triceps or visa versa you'll end up with funky shaped arms. Almost everyone has limited lateral deltoid development and bigger arms accentuates this problem. Many people have funky looking pecs because they don't have enough front deltoid, upper pec development.

It's debatable too that deadlifts are building your (visible) abs. I don't see that at all. You need to keep your intra-abdominal muscles tight when you do the lift to keep your back safe - but you don't see those muscles on the surface, although they do help to make the waist thicker. You dropped a lot of bodyfat this year - certainly that would be the main reason why your abs have improved.

I had a theory that doing unbelted heavy deadlifts and squats added many inches to my mid-section over several years. I don't use a belt. Yes, 40 inches (waist) sucked in is too large for me. I've knocked about 4 inches off of that this year and would like to get down to 34.

Edited April 14, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

We are in agreement about some things and not about others. That's life i got the same with some of my fishing budies about fishing.

Its just not an exact science. Anyway i do like your views so that is not a problem life is boring if we all agree. I think my abs are looking better mostly because i'm loosing fat.

[robblok]

I will come back to this im enjoying the idea's even though we don't see eye to eye. I still believe that what works on one does not have to work on someone else (within limits of course).

I must say i feel real sore today because of changing my training routine, i love it. It will be fun to do other stuff again I will exclude deadlift for a few weeks while i give my (minor) injury some time to heal. Would be nice to be injury free too.

[robblok]

Damm,

Just finished an other session of training. I must say im starting to love split again. The burning in my muscles. The pump.. god its great. I had a nice session. I am still loosing weight and i can just see the improvements in the mirror.

The fat around my waist is starting to become soft and pliable. I read somewhere that is a good sign. I am pretty sure once i hit 200lbs i will be pretty lean. If nog then i just loose an other 10lbs

I am considering buying some ironmaster 75 lbs quick lock dumbels. But they are a whopping 1000$ inclusive shipping. I know its a life time investment and they can even expand till 120lbs.

[glbv]

If you plan on never moveing then would be a good addition to a home gym, but if you ever moved out of country would be hell to transport.

[robblok]

If you plan on never moveing then would be a good addition to a home gym, but if you ever moved out of country would be hell to transport.

I am planning on living here forever. I have lived here for 6-7 years already. I also think that its easy to sell if need be. Maybe not for the price i'm going to pay.

[tropo]

Damm,

Just finished an other session of training. I must say im starting to love split again. The burning in my muscles. The pump.. god its great. I had a nice session. I am still loosing weight and i can just see the improvements in the mirror.

The fat around my waist is starting to become soft and pliable. I read somewhere that is a good sign. I am pretty sure once i hit 200lbs i will be pretty lean. If nog then i just loose an other 10lbs

I am considering buying some ironmaster 75 lbs quick lock dumbels. But they are a whopping 1000$ inclusive shipping. I know its a life time investment and they can even expand till 120lbs.

Yeah, when the fat is thick it stretches the skin tight and it's hard to pinch. I get this when I'm trying to take calliper measurement on some areas. When the fat diminishes, the skin gets looser. It's a good sign.

If I was going to invest $1000 I'd just get a full rack of fixed dumbbells made up. I suppose it depends on your finances. How heavy do you need to go? Even the 100s at my gym aren't heavy enough for some exercises.

[robblok]

Damm,

Just finished an other session of training. I must say im starting to love split again. The burning in my muscles. The pump.. god its great. I had a nice session. I am still loosing weight and i can just see the improvements in the mirror.

The fat around my waist is starting to become soft and pliable. I read somewhere that is a good sign. I am pretty sure once i hit 200lbs i will be pretty lean. If nog then i just loose an other 10lbs

I am considering buying some ironmaster 75 lbs quick lock dumbels. But they are a whopping 1000$ inclusive shipping. I know its a life time investment and they can even expand till 120lbs.

Yeah, when the fat is thick it stretches the skin tight and it's hard to pinch. I get this when I'm trying to take calliper measurement on some areas. When the fat diminishes, the skin gets looser. It's a good sign.

If I was going to invest $1000 I'd just get a full rack of fixed dumbbells made up. I suppose it depends on your finances. How heavy do you need to go? Even the 100s at my gym aren't heavy enough for some exercises.

Tropo, i think 75lbs would be enough for all but a few presses. (dumbbell press). Most exercises will be thinks like curls side and front raises fly's triceps kick back ect. Only the presses and rows need more then 75 lbs. I still got weights that i can adjust to at least 100lbs but so im not sure yet if i should buy it. Its a lot of money for something i already have (but slower to adjust the dumbells) As for making a whole rack.. that is a bit more then 1000$. Now i got 3 sets of adjustable dumbbells so i dont have to change to much.

[robblok]

Just to show weight loss is not linear

[glbv]

How often do you weigh yourself? If its daily thats going to be water weight jumping up and down depending on your carb/salt intake. If i have a salty dinner with alot of carbs i can gan easily 3-4kg in a night just water and I will look bloated the rest of the day.

Keep knocking that number down your doing an awesome job!

[robblok]

I weigh myself every day, and i know what causes the swings, so i just watch the trend line as long as that goes down im ok. I just want to reach 90kg in 3-4 months. Im pretty sure i will look quite ripped then.. or i just loose more.

[tropo]

How often do you weigh yourself? If its daily thats going to be water weight jumping up and down depending on your carb/salt intake. If i have a salty dinner with alot of carbs i can gan easily 3-4kg in a night just water and I will look bloated the rest of the day.

Keep knocking that number down your doing an awesome job!

That's interesting. I weigh myself first thing in the morning after a bowel evacuation and my weight never varies more than about 0.3 kg if that. The night measurements will fluctuate a lot more.

Of course if I pigged out at a buffet I'm sure I could influence that a bit LOL.