Fat %

[tropo]

This is why I said *IF* you perform glycogen depleting exercise. And I don't know what kind of exercises you do at the gym but if you spend 2-3 hours there without *ANY* glycogen depletion whatsoever, then you were probably like the guys who just sit there and text or walk on the treadmill for 20 mins, and do 1000s of sets of bicep curls before going home. Try doing some compound exercises for 3-4 sets for 10-15 reps with heavy weights then tell me you haven't any depleted glycogen *at all* (granted it won't be as much as running a marathon), that's you exemplifying broscience and yes being an everyday schmuck, mate.

I don't know what on earth would make you say my statements about carbs are "broscience". Man this place is sometimes worse than bodybuilding.com forums. Prolly where you get your info from. Geez. I feel so enlightened.

I gave up arguing with people on bodybuilding.com. I even got banned on there a few times a couple of years ago.

I burned 1630 calories today in 90 minutes. I reckon there was a bit of depletion going on there but a lot of the energy came from fat stores because I didn't push my heart rate too high - so no muscle groups felt "fried" after the session.

Edited May 12, 2012 by tropo

[glbv]

Saying your not going to digest cucumber seeds.. ok and how many calories do you believe are in a cucumber seed? maybe .01? if that. Im saying anything that would normally be digested in small amount is going to be digested in large amounts. Eat rocks if ya want probably not gonna digest them in large amounts either.

As for the glycogen depletion, sure you will have some form but nothing that would even merit thought. You might be exhausted once your done, its extremely common after my workout to just sit in the changing room and almost become a zombie cause your just spent. But its not going to make any form of noticeable difference in what your consuming calorie wise.

Imo the chocolate 5000 hypothetical situation, as said if your spacing it apart your more likely not to eat it all. But if were saying no matter what 5k in 1hour vers 5k over 8 hours imo their will be no difference.

Just a side note thats a shit ton of chocolate, why do you have so much? Having a tough time actually visualizing a kg of chocolate. 100g bar is big but x10 of those

[tropo]

Saying your not going to digest cucumber seeds.. ok and how many calories do you believe are in a cucumber seed? maybe .01? if that. Im saying anything that would normally be digested in small amount is going to be digested in large amounts. Eat rocks if ya want probably not gonna digest them in large amounts either.

As for the glycogen depletion, sure you will have some form but nothing that would even merit thought. You might be exhausted once your done, its extremely common after my workout to just sit in the changing room and almost become a zombie cause your just spent. But its not going to make any form of noticeable difference in what your consuming calorie wise.

Imo the chocolate 5000 hypothetical situation, as said if your spacing it apart your more likely not to eat it all. But if were saying no matter what 5k in 1hour vers 5k over 8 hours imo their will be no difference.

Just a side note thats a shit ton of chocolate, why do you have so much? Having a tough time actually visualizing a kg of chocolate. 100g bar is big but x10 of those

The cucumber seeds was a joke - lighten up! I eat heap of cucumbers and can see the seeds floating around after I've taken a shit. I wonder if they have an value scouring the walls of the intestines on their way out. You may be thinking why I inspect my stool - after finding a tapeworm in there in January I always have a close look.

The 1kg Cadbury block of chocolate is a special block they sell in Australia at duty free. It was a gift.

[Neha]

This is why I said *IF* you perform glycogen depleting exercise. And I don't know what kind of exercises you do at the gym but if you spend 2-3 hours there without *ANY* glycogen depletion whatsoever, then you were probably like the guys who just sit there and text or walk on the treadmill for 20 mins, and do 1000s of sets of bicep curls before going home. Try doing some compound exercises for 3-4 sets for 10-15 reps with heavy weights then tell me you haven't any depleted glycogen *at all* (granted it won't be as much as running a marathon), that's you exemplifying broscience and yes being an everyday schmuck, mate.

I don't know what on earth would make you say my statements about carbs are "broscience". Man this place is sometimes worse than bodybuilding.com forums. Prolly where you get your info from. Geez. I feel so enlightened.

I gave up arguing with people on bodybuilding.com. I even got banned on there a few times a couple of years ago.

I burned 1630 calories today in 90 minutes. I reckon there was a bit of depletion going on there but a lot of the energy came from fat stores because I didn't push my heart rate too high - so no muscle groups felt "fried" after the session.

Yeah I really dislike the crowd on the forum, but it makes sense. You find all kinds of people wanting to lift! I want to say that I do enjoy your contribution here. I've learned some new things thanks to you, for what it's worth.

How did you know how many calories you burned? I don't trust the numbers on the cardio machines at all. That makes sense, keeping your heart rate low to tap into fat stores. I do that in the morning in a fasted state as well, though I prefer to create my deficit with diet, having fixed macro numbers for training and rest days.

[tropo]

Yeah I really dislike the crowd on the forum, but it makes sense. You find all kinds of people wanting to lift! I want to say that I do enjoy your contribution here. I've learned some new things thanks to you, for what it's worth.

How did you know how many calories you burned? I don't trust the numbers on the cardio machines at all. That makes sense, keeping your heart rate low to tap into fat stores. I do that in the morning in a fasted state as well, though I prefer to create my deficit with diet, having fixed macro numbers for training and rest days.

Although the numbers may not be precise I believe they are fairly close on the latest higher end machines. They develop their formulas by testing it with people.

They're certainly very good measure of how intensely I'm working out. If I watch calories burned while keeping a close eye on heart rate I can work out the most efficient ways to get higher numbers without totally exhausting myself.

For example, on the Cybex Arc Trainer I adjust manually the arc angle, resistance, speed and the intensity balance between upper and lower body. I monitor closely 3 parameters: watts, calories and heart rate. This also keeps me from getting bored during a long session.

I know I've showed some pretty high calorie burn figures on this machine. These numbers are nearly impossible to produce on the rowing machine because it is too upper body intensive and on the bike because it is too quad intensive. The only machine which comes close is the elliptical machine. The burn is high because it allows the largest muscles in the body to work perfectly in concert to produce work in a very efficient way. Whereas the bike is quad intensive and develops a lactic acid burn if you push it too hard for too long, the Cybex works the glutes, hips and hamstrings a lot more while bringing into play the upper back and chest in a very efficient pushing - pulling movement.

What's more is I can push it as hard as I want without getting any injuries. Push the bike too hard and my knees hurt. Push the rower too hard and I'll end up with lower back problems. And for the ladies - it's the best glute firmer of all the cardio machines because of the pushing movement of the legs rather than the cyclic movement on the bike and elliptical.

It's magic!

[robblok]

Ok here goes one of my explanations, remember i did not come up with it but it sounds plausible.

All humans use the same energy to overcome the same resistance / weight. The problem is measuring this resistance. If Tropo and i were to both do squats at the same weight there would still be a difference. Tropo is taller / tropo weighs more. Also because he is taller his ROM is larger. So he would burn more then me.

On bikes things are easier to measure but still not perfect because your weight helps you overcome the resistance partly, plus maybe the fact that once its moving its easier (not sure about that). I think the same thing goes for the Cybex Arc trainer.

The concept rower is supposed to be real good because they measure the Resistance generated at the fly wheel. I am not sure how much your weight helps there.

Other thing is that i think might be a good measurement of how much you burn are heart rate monitors however suppose im in super shape and my evil twin is not. Same amount of muscle same handsome looks . But he has the endurance of a 80yo couch potato and me of the a super athlete. My heartrate would be low and his sky high at the same intensity. I wonder how that works out.

Just some things to ponder about. I like all you guys here i might not accept all everybody says and i think its the same for the others (good thing because you learn from self study) but i think we got pretty civil discussions going here. I also frequent bodybuilding.com but more as a reader because there is some good information out there.

Also today i gained one kg after yesterday. I am guessing its all water. I mean i really did not binge out that much. Also i took some tablets to cure my toilet problem. So who knows ill check again in a few days.

@tropo about training. I understand your way of thinking on weights you listen to your body. I do too but with the difference that your memory is probably better as mine. I use what i have written down as reference and starting point.

I think we all agree here that muscles only grow if you increase the stress on them over a period of time. That means either more reps (not too many of course), more weight, or slower movement. If i don't write it down somewhere its hard to remember if i did this. Of course i listen to my body and i don't restrict myself 100% to my program. The program is a guide to what i have to do. The amount of energy and form of the day decides the rest.

[tropo]

@tropo about training. I understand your way of thinking on weights you listen to your body. I do too but with the difference that your memory is probably better as mine. I use what i have written down as reference and starting point.

One of the reasons logging my weights would be a waste of time is because my workouts have become extremely flexible as a result of working out in a very busy gym. The machine or station I may want to use at the time will not always be available, so instead of waiting around I'll do something else for that muscle group instead, or switch the order around.

Training in a quieter gym allows you to focus on exact order of exercises and the weights you want to push. As a result of the more flexible approach my overall conditioning has improved and I'm more focused on form and function than actual weight.

Let's face it, if you've been pushing weights around for decades you know full well that there are different ways to perform a set. If you are focused on reaching or exceeding a certain weight on a particular exercise there are techniques to do it. You can rush the warmup sets to preserve your strength. You can rush the set relying more on the stretch reflex to get the reps out. You can shorten the range of motion - this happens automatically no matter how hard you try to avoid it on certain exercises if you're too focused on reaching a certain number of reps. If you were aiming for 10 and only get 7 or 8... so what? It shouldn't matter. Better 7 good reps than 10 bad ones.

DB inclines is the best example I can think of. I could take a certain weight and push out 10 reps. If I increased the range of motion by dropping the DB a bit lower on each rep and slowed it down maybe I could only get 5 reps. If I really speed it up maybe I could get 15. Increasing the rest periods between sets also help if you want to lift heavier but which is better for muscle growth. I would say the slower, fuller reps would be better for muscle growth because you're putting less stress on the joints and more on the working muscle.

I'm a firm believer in volume training for bodybuilders. Move quickly between sets and hit the muscles from different angles.

Let's take a chest workout as an example. Let's say I normally start with the incline barbell bench press. I know I can get up to a certain weight on that movement. The next workout I decide to do DB inclines and weighted dips first and finish on incline bench. Obviously the amount of weight I can use would be very much lighter than if I started on that exercise. To me the amount of weight I'm going to use is totally irrelevant and has nothing to do with muscle growth at all. The important thing is that at any point in time I'm working the muscle intensely in very good form with the heaviest weight I'm able to use at that point in time for the number of reps I'm aiming for.

So basically what I'm saying is that a focus on how much you are lifting is counter productive and stops you from performing exercises correctly and increases your risk of injury. Have a look around any public gym. The guys pushing the big weights are always suffering from injured shoulder, elbows, wrists, knees etc. I know full well - I was one of them for the longest time. I've had injuries in nearly every part of the body. Now I'm pretty much injury free and looking better than I have for years. What's more is I enjoy my training so much more these days. I don't have this cloud over my head - the thought of how much I was pushing last workout and if I don't reach it or increase it today I'm going to be depressed.

Now on the idea of having to know where to start. I don't understand the problem. I will always warmup on the same weight every workout no matter how high I'm going to go. The only difference is that if I plan to go higher I'll make the jumps between sets bigger. The early sets will soon tell me how high I'm going to go. Some days you may not feel the power and then focus on lighter weights in slower super strict form. If I was going to use 120's or only 90's on DB incline I'd still start on 50lbs to warmup.

Edited May 13, 2012 by tropo

[glbv]

Yesterday morning to this morning I had a 6kg increase in weight 4kg of that stayed after i got to the gym, just got home after a sauna run, weight is up little less than .25kg

[robblok]

@tropo, sure i know you can do different things to get past certain weights. But for now im not going for weight loss. But i just changed programs i still don't know all my weights. So writing stuff down will help with that.

I am training alone i can pretty much decide the order of things. I also know that the order of things can change how much you can lift we all know that. Also how correct your form is ect. But writing it down (now typing) is easy and i put some comments there too. If i rushed or slow or what ever. After a while i might remember everything again and then logging will become less. Though it is fun to look back at logs.

Right now its weight loss all the way and the hell with weights of training. Saying that does not mean i dont want to increase the stress on the muscle. Muscles only grow when you stress them more as the last time. (not always but over a period of time). Weight is a good tool with that.

[tropo]

I also know that the order of things can change how much you can lift we all know that.

The problem is that most people are so fixated on the weights they lift on a particular exercise that they will never change the order.

The best example is the bench press. How many people do you see doing them last? Not many. There's actually no good reason to put it first but just about everyone does because they are so concerned about how many plates they are seen to be lifting.

Now you (and many others) have been touting the idea that stronger muscles will be bigger muscles, but if I put bench presses last and press less than another person who puts them first, will I have lessor growth? I believe not and I'll explain why.... a guy who puts bench press first in a effort to push maximum weights is normally executing the movement very poorly because all he wants to do is pile on the weight. He's likely arching and bouncing the bar. He's dropping the weight quickly and snapping back up using the stretch reflex. All he's doing is ruining his shoulders.

... and then along comes Tropo. He lowers the bar slowly in a very controlled manner to touch the chest in a precise position and allows it to pause momentarily and then uses pure muscle strength to power the bar back up. He's using considerably less weight but is the other guy building bigger muscles? I don't believe so. He'll likely be out of business in a while with rotator cuff injuries. You see the guys everyday at the gym - doing their rotator cuff warmups before they hit bench again.

Now to be fair, there are some guys capable of lifting heavy weights in a very controlled manner but they are rare and impressive to watch. Recently I was watching a guy do very strict incline presses with 315 for 5 to 8 reps and I was suitably impressed.

One of the very best ways to start benching well and safely is to place them last in your chest routine. You won't be concerned about weight and you can focus totally on form.

I think the secret to gym longevity is to learn how to get the most out of the least weight possible. I wish I'd learned this secret many years ago. The weights will slowly creep up, but it is a secondary issue.

Edited May 13, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

Tropo,

You constantly seem to think for me. That is not a bad thing if you knew how i really thought. The reason most people put bench before other exercises is simple compound exercises usually go for isolation exercises.

When i am talking about making muscles grow im talking about increased stress on the muscle. I told you can create more stress in a various ways. But adding weight is one, but no need to add weight to my bench if i do incline bench first and then flat bench. Its about more stress and not how you get more stress on there. But weight is a something we invented a long time ago and its easy to quantify. That is why i use it.

I told you before i lift alone, so i don't show of to anyone. I have mentioned how much i lift here once or twice on occasion but its not a competition for me. I have done german volume training too and i can tell you there you use weights that are a lot lighter. Weight is for me a means to an end something that is easy to measure. There are not many other variables in our training that is so easy to measure as weight.

I admit that i like adding weights to my lifts, but right now i don't care that they are dwindeling a bit because i lost so much weight already and i have been living on a caloric deficit for a long time. I only want to get ripped.

I believe that in the big lifts its all about explosive strength to have muscle growth. Our muscles are made for that, then you got muscle growth and functional strength. There is an other way to grow muscle (have to look up the two terms) and that will give you bigger muscles but no strength. If it is all the same i rather have version 1 where I get strength too. But even better is if you can combine the two. That is possible too. Just read up on it.

[tropo]

Tropo,

You constantly seem to think for me. That is not a bad thing if you knew how i really thought. The reason most people put bench before other exercises is simple compound exercises usually go for isolation exercises.

Discussing concepts you bring up is not thinking for you it's discussing ideas.

The reason people start with flat bench press is either ignorance (because everyone else does) or ego. There's plenty of compound exercises for the chest. Flat bench presses are one of the most destructive exercises in the gym, not because of the movement, but the obsession to keep adding more weight.

You keep harping on about strength, but strength is specific to the exercises you perform and how you perform them. There's a huge technique element to lifting heavy weights on key exercises. If we are judging strength by now much you can lift on a particular exercise your strength is not always proportional to your muscle size. You can often learn to lift a lot more without putting on size. Have a look at the bodies of powerlifters compared to bodybuilders.

I still think you're confused about whether you want to be a powerlifter or a bodybuilder. I've been in the same position myself.

Edited May 14, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

I think you don't even read my posts because they are to logical to deny.

I still believe and others do too

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/why_the_bench_press_is_the_best_exercise

So you can 100 things and i can say 100 things but fact is i believe it works for me.

Other then that in my last post i was talking about putting extra stress to muscles and told you that by adding weights because its measureable its easier. That does not mean i want to get stronger it means i like adding weights because its something you can measure and thus easier then going by your gut.

You like to go by your gut, i like qo quantify things and go an other way. You seem to know it all while in fact you are missing a few of the most important things. You should lift and train in a way that you enjoy and think that works for you. My workout works for many people.

I got a friend who workouts like you he likes it, i never told him off neither did he do the same with me. You seem to think that only your way is right. I got news for you there are more roads then one leading to Rome.

[tropo]

I think you don't even read my posts because they are to logical to deny.

It's ironic that you just posted this comment. In my reply above I wrote a nearly identical line but I deleted it.

I stated quite clearly the reasons why bench press is not a good exercise, but it is not the exercise itself that is bad - it's people's obsession with piling on weight and performing it very badly that makes it destructive. This part you just cannot understand. When people become obsessed with weight as you obviously are, injuries will follow.

You may increase size and strength for awhile, but when you're off with injuries you'll realise you took the wrong path to Rome.

Edited May 14, 2012 by tropo

[tropo]

You like to go by your gut, i like qo quantify things and go an other way. You seem to know it all while in fact you are missing a few of the most important things. You should lift and train in a way that you enjoy and think that works for you. My workout works for many people.

I got a friend who workouts like you he likes it, i never told him off neither did he do the same with me. You seem to think that only your way is right. I got news for you there are more roads then one leading to Rome.

Where did you get the idea that I don't enjoy my workouts. I thought I made it clear that I love training the way I do.

There's more than one road leading to Rome, but without a map you're going to get hopelessly lost and you may never find your way.

Whenever you don't agree I get a comment like "read a book", or you post links from bodybuilding forums.

Edited May 14, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

Tropo, i really understand that people obsessed with weight can injure themselves. I just don't see how that applies to me. I need to lift my weight off myself, i need to make sure i can complete the set because even though i got safeties its not fun to use them because the way i set them it still means some discomfort. I can honestly say i haven't had a barbell on my chest stuck for at last 5 months. Before that was the floods and i did not train.

All i am saying is that i use the increase in weights and the increase in reps (up to a certain level) to put extra stress on the muscles to make them grow. There wont be any growth if you keep doing the same amount of reps and same weight over and over again. Weight is easily quantifiable so i use that but not as a goal but as means to get bigger.

My obsession with logging stems from the fact that i just started a new program and all the numbers are not fixed yet in my mind. So its good to see what weight i used as a reference. Just like you if i have a bad day i wont go for the heaviest possible.

I just got pissed off because i was telling you that my lifts are going down (strenght) because of the extended caloric deficit. You also know that im not going to stop with that. So i just wondered how you could call me strength obsessed while clearly im not weight loss obsessed.

[robblok]

You like to go by your gut, i like qo quantify things and go an other way. You seem to know it all while in fact you are missing a few of the most important things. You should lift and train in a way that you enjoy and think that works for you. My workout works for many people.

I got a friend who workouts like you he likes it, i never told him off neither did he do the same with me. You seem to think that only your way is right. I got news for you there are more roads then one leading to Rome.

Where did you get the idea that I don't enjoy my workouts. I thought I made it clear that I love training the way I do.

There's more than one road leading to Rome, but without a map you're going to get hopelessly lost and you may never find your way.

Whenever you don't agree I get a comment like "read a book", or you post links from bodybuilding forums.

I know you enjoy your workouts, as i enjoy mine but you seem to want me to change my workouts to suit yours as they are in your eyes superior. I never made such claims i believe in live and let live.

I give you a link to those places because they say the opposite from what you are saying and support my view. I could of course write it down in my own hand but they are much better at writing then i am.

I am willing to change my views but you seem to think you know it all. I still think that if you eat good lift good all those other things will only have little or non influence. Does not mean i want to know them but i doubt there is something there so earth shattering that it will turn either of us into a ripped god in the blink of an eye (or a few months).

I also believe that so many of the research papers are contradicting each other that you just have to do what you believe in and when you discuss something you have to be open to the fact that others think differently.

I will state it here.. i honestly dont know everything, and i have a live and let live attitude and if i have given an other impression sorry.

[tropo]

It's not surprising that your weights are going down because you're dropping weight very quickly.

I think you're taking my general training debate too personally. Sooner or later when you get down to your target weight you'll reset and set new goals.

I'm just showing another side of the story because so often guys come on here and tout lifting heavy as the only way to gain size.

You're also fixed on the idea that if a weight is not getting heavier the muscle cannot be increasing in size. With this I disagree. There's other elements that influence muscle size which is pretty obvious on bodybuilders who aren't able to lift anything near what a powerlifter can lift but display more muscle mass.

Edited May 14, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

It's not surprising that your weights are going down because you're dropping weight very quickly.

I think you're taking my general training debate too personally. Sooner or later when you get down to your target weight you'll reset and set new goals.

I'm just showing another side of the story because so often guys come on here and tout lifting heavy as the only way to gain size.

You're also fixed on the idea that if a weight is not getting heavier the muscle cannot be increasing in size. With this I disagree. There's other elements that influence muscle size which is pretty obvious on bodybuilders who aren't able to lift anything near what a powerlifter can lift but display more muscle mass.

I agree with you there Tropo, cause there are different kinds of muscle growth i read about that somewhere. Also you can do more reps then the weight is not going up but reps are.

If you can find an other way for instance by lowering the weight slower then you can increase stress on the muscle too and increase your size.

I just think that reps and weight are easier to manage because they are easier to define. Less guessing more facts. But if you are really in tune with your body then other ways could work too.

[tropo]

I will state it here.. i honestly dont know everything, and i have a live and let live attitude and if i have given an other impression sorry.

I'm hearing this a lot from you lately: "you think you know everything" or words to that effect.

Perhaps my writing style makes you think that, but you are wrong. Just as you do, I continually read, research and experiment. On here we're basically reporting our latest observations. If I seem too confident that I'm always right, then I apologize because that is not the case.

However, I believe that recently I have finally cracked the code on how to train very effectively with little risk of injury. What that means is a method of training which allows me to obtain the best physique I can obtain within my genetic limitations, physical limitations (permanent injuries) and age.

It came a bit late, but better late than never.

Edited May 14, 2012 by tropo

[tropo]

I just think that reps and weight are easier to manage because they are easier to define. Less guessing more facts. But if you are really in tune with your body then other ways could work too.

Let me make it clear. If I'm doing a particular exercise and I feel strong I will increase the weight. Let's say I planned 10 reps and they feel easy, I will stop at 10 and do another set at a heavier weight. I never have a fixed number of sets. Sometimes I'll do extra sets, sometimes less.

[robblok]

I just think that reps and weight are easier to manage because they are easier to define. Less guessing more facts. But if you are really in tune with your body then other ways could work too.

Let me make it clear. If I'm doing a particular exercise and I feel strong I will increase the weight. Let's say I planned 10 reps and they feel easy, I will stop at 10 and do another set at a heavier weight. I never have a fixed number of sets. Sometimes I'll do extra sets, sometimes less.

Tropo, i am the same but maybe my weights vary less because in general i keep the order of my training the same. First compounds then isolation. (there is an other theory about pre exhaust could be good too for instance if your pecs are strong enough but your triceps are not you could do some pecs exercise before bench press so your pecs get worked good at a weight your triceps can handle)

There was a time (i admit it) that i would not even train if i did not feel 100%. Now i just take of some weights and take it easy and train. Some exercises for me i do much slower and controlled then others. Usually isolation exercises. Yesterday i did some sissy weights with neck press because i haven't done them in ages. Also i am not so sure i still like the exercise.

I might do front press instead also with low weights until i do them good and go up. But its not a goal, its more i see no sense (and you don't either) in training with a weight or rep range that is easy.

Today i will be doing back. I start up with pull ups 4 x 8 (semi assisted by a rubber band). Then deadlifts 4 x 8 , and then t bar row 4 x 8. After that im dead and will start on biceps. The rep range is an indication i could do more or less reps depending on my energy. But doing deadlifts really saps me of energy. I dont put them in every back workout day.

[tropo]

Getting back on topic - Fat %

I've been doing a lot of research about the various caliper testing methods.

Here's a great online calculator if you have calipers:

3 site: http://www.free-onli...calculator.html

7 site: http://www.free-onli...-fold-test.html

If you haven't got calipers Phuket Health and Nutrition sells a fairly good Accumeasure caliper for only 399 baht delivered free to anywhere in Thailand.

Using the Jackson Pollock 3 caliper method I'm 8.45%. Using the Jackson Pollock 7 method I'm 10.22%. Using Bodystat - Parillo Performance 9 positions I'm 8.2%. Although it's hard to know the true figure as there is still the nagging question of visceral fat (inter abdominal fat), my 9 point total thickness has gone down from 116mm to 68.5mm in exactly 4 months although my bodyweight has only dropped 5 kg in this time. My lean bodymass using the percentage calculations has increased by 1kg over that time. Using the mirror I feel I've gained more than 1kg of muscle over that time. My waist has reduced from 40 inches down to 35 inches (fully sucked in first thing in the morning), so there's a good chance I've traded visceral fat for muscle.

The main reason why I want to revisit this topic is because I came across an absolutely fascinating article about BioSignature by Charles Poliquin titled "Is spot reduction a myth":

http://modelhealth.c...osignature&id=7

Basically he believes spot reduction is not a myth and goes into some details about how the hormonal system (more specifically malfunction thereof) is responsible for fat accumulation in different areas of the body.

He measures 12 areas with calipers and compares them to the tricep reading which is considered as a base line thickness to see which areas are carrying excess fat.

What I read next almost floored me....

My highest reading is the subscapular at 14mm. My triceps reading is 6mm. The next highest was abdominal at 9mm... all others were around 6mm including knee, chin and cheek.

I was always aware of a high reading in the subscapular region and it puzzled me. It does make back definition very illusive too - all that hard back work and nothing to show for it.

Anyway, according to Charles Poliquin excess fat on the shoulder blades indicates a problem with insulin levels. He goes on further to say "The shoulder blade area has to do with the genetic ability to handle carbohydrates" and "For the subscapular and supra-illiac, controlling the blood sugar levels of the body with more frequent meals, reduced daily carbohydrate and low GI food choices is critical..."

Bingo! I have insulin resistance otherwise known as pre-diabetes.

Without knowing I've been taking all the steps I can to rectify the problem. In 4 months of hard training and dietary control I've reduced my back fat from 22mm down to 14mm. I still measure my blood sugar levels daily and in response to various meals and my blood sugar levels are currently always reading normal.

I'll be keeping a much closer eye on my subscapular fat thickness from here on in.

People with other problem areas may want to look closer at this...

On the second page he covers each of the 12 areas in detail and what can be done to help.

Edited May 20, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

Tropo at those figures you must be way leaner then me. But you say you still cant see your abs ? Most people say that at 10% abs are clearly visible. You must be real defined already ?

[tropo]

Tropo at those figures you must be way leaner then me. But you say you still cant see your abs ? Most people say that at 10% abs are clearly visible. You must be real defined already ?

No, my abs are clearly visible - not razor sharp but certainly coming into focus.

I suppose we can really throw bodyfat percentage figures out the window and focus on skin fold thickness around the muscles we want to see. I just did some calliper readings around the midsection and I get between 7.5mm and 10mm in the ab region. On the sides (oblique and seratus area) I get 5 - 6mm thickness. Just below the naval I have a little pocket of stubborn fat which is at about 12 - 13mm which is also quickly disappearing. My main problem now, as mentioned above is getting the upper back fat down as that is in the 12mm to 14mm zone. I think I'll need to get it below 10mm to see some definition in that area. I'm starting to show some vascularity on the quads and upper chest area. I can see striations on the triceps and quads and the deltoids are starting to pop out of hiding. I'm also starting to see some muscle separation on the arms, upper chest and quads. It's an amazing experience to see stuff I've never seen before. I'm smaller but people at the gym are commenting that I look big.

It's all an illusion because when I was 120kg my chest was 53 and my waist 41. Now the chest is 50 but the waist is 35 at 102.5kg. The arms have also shrunk by about an inch but with more definition they look bigger.

It really feels good being lighter. It's so much easier to get around and do everyday chores.

Why don't you take some calliper readings around the body that you can check every month or so as reference to see how fast you're losing it and where there are stubborn areas. I have readings going back about 13 years. These readings will come in handy in the future too if you ever start going in the wrong direction again so you'll know what to aim for.

Edited May 21, 2012 by tropo

[Kalbo]

Tropo at those figures you must be way leaner then me. But you say you still cant see your abs ? Most people say that at 10% abs are clearly visible. You must be real defined already ?

Rob, just curious but you got my interest piqued. How old are you ? How heavy were you to start with and what's your exercise split, (cardio vs weights) if any ? and what's your target weight, if any ?

Cheers

[robblok]

I started out 107, was fat because of the flooding. I was locked up in the house while the village was flooded. I could not get out much and drank a lot of alcohol. My normal weigh would have been around 97. Now i am 93. I lost this weight since Januari 2012.

Before i did the 5 x 5 from starting strenght. Now i do the a split and i do some cardio too. Not as much as Tropo but that will change once i get my rowing machine.

I have no target weight i have a target shape. I want to be able to see my abs in a good way. I know im getting closer. But i guess ill have to go to 88 or even lower.

[Kalbo]

I started out 107, was fat because of the flooding. I was locked up in the house while the village was flooded. I could not get out much and drank a lot of alcohol. My normal weigh would have been around 97. Now i am 93. I lost this weight since Januari 2012.

Before i did the 5 x 5 from starting strenght. Now i do the a split and i do some cardio too. Not as much as Tropo but that will change once i get my rowing machine.

I have no target weight i have a target shape. I want to be able to see my abs in a good way. I know im getting closer. But i guess ill have to go to 88 or even lower.

Very interesting. It seems as if I'm in a similar situation to yourself. At present, I'm 44 years old, 6'2" and 104Kg. I have brought my weight down from 109Kg , took about 5 months, and I intend to go to about 90Kg. My God, is it a struggle or what.

Hope you stick to it, mate.

[robblok]

I started out 107, was fat because of the flooding. I was locked up in the house while the village was flooded. I could not get out much and drank a lot of alcohol. My normal weigh would have been around 97. Now i am 93. I lost this weight since Januari 2012.

Before i did the 5 x 5 from starting strenght. Now i do the a split and i do some cardio too. Not as much as Tropo but that will change once i get my rowing machine.

I have no target weight i have a target shape. I want to be able to see my abs in a good way. I know im getting closer. But i guess ill have to go to 88 or even lower.

Very interesting. It seems as if I'm in a similar situation to yourself. At present, I'm 44 years old, 6'2" and 104Kg. I have brought my weight down from 109Kg , took about 5 months, and I intend to go to about 90Kg. My God, is it a struggle or what.

Hope you stick to it, mate.

Yes its a struggle.. at first i always thought i was one of the few who have a hard time loosing weight. But now i realise many of the stories where it comes off fast is of people who are grossly overweight. Not from people who are already ok but want to get in great shape.

Now no alchol .. eating clean and working out. Does wonders but i do get annoyed when i hit plateaus. Tropo is also right that i might want to rush it. Its just the way how many people are including me.

[robblok]

Tropo, i will get some of those calipers. The ones i got are a bit old. But the problem will be getting the right spots.I will need my gf to help me with that.