Poll: Should Film Festivals Boycott Gay Themed Israeli Films? (S.F. Frameline Controversy)

[Jingthing]

OK, this one is personal to me as a long time supporter of FRAMELINE (the organization behind the best gay film festival in the world). In fact, I attended the VERY FIRST Frameline S.F. gay film festival. (Feeling old.)

So now there is a big controversy over showing gay themed Israeli films in the Frameline festivals.

Of course, I love good film from all countries, Iran, Israel, Thailand ... even Canada!

Art is art. I find this move to censor what Frameline wants to show for political reasons disgusting.

What do you think? This link is obviously from an anti-Israel website, but it provides some good info about the controversy.

Price was particularly angered by a bus shelter ad saying the festival was guilty of pinkwashing-- using Israel's good record on gay rights to immunize itself from human rights violations against Palestinians.

http://mondoweiss.ne...r-protests.html

Frameline website:

http://www.frameline.org/index.aspx

BTW, yes, there definitely are some gay themed Israeli films that are worth watching:

Edited April 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Some background about gay film in Israel and it's political implications:

http://www.israelfil...sraeli-attitude

The fact that my films are as successful as they've been in Israel gives me hope that there is a potential to embrace the 'other,'?" he says. "When I was growing up in Israel and when I started making films, the gay 'other' was almost as big a threat as a Palestinian or an Arab. So maybe I'm too optimistic, but I feel that the ability to love gay characters ... one day will transfer itself to the ability to understand our neighbors, enemies, future friends."

Edited April 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[Ijustwannateach]

Just to pop my head in here in a modly way, this thread will be about the ethical decisions of gay film festivals. The moment it becomes a discussion of Israel, Palestine, pro- or anti- or anything else, it gets closed.

JT, these attempts to move in this direction in this subforum are beginning to be a bit tiresome.

[endure]

I liked Yossi and Jagger but I'm sorry I can't be doing with beards

[Jingthing]

I liked Yossi and Jagger but I'm sorry I can't be doing with beards

Yeah, I agree! BTW, there is a new film coming out this year called Yossi about Yossi later in life. Should be good! The musical one, Mary Lou, I also really liked.

[Jingthing]

Just to pop my head in here in a modly way, this thread will be about the ethical decisions of gay film festivals. The moment it becomes a discussion of Israel, Palestine, pro- or anti- or anything else, it gets closed.

JT, these attempts to move in this direction in this subforum are beginning to be a bit tiresome.

Then just close it then. The topic is obviously about the specific issue presented in the OP, the move to boycott Israeli gay themed cultural products to be shown at gay film festivals as a way to protest Israeli government policies, the accusation that cultural presentations of gay life in Israel are being used as "pink washing" propaganda, etc. If that can't be discussed, you've castrated the topic.

I'm sorry you're annoyed, really.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[endure]

I liked Yossi and Jagger but I'm sorry I can't be doing with beards

Yeah, I agree! BTW, there is a new film coming out this year called Yossi about Yossi later in life. Should be good! The musical one, Mary Lou, I also really liked.

I'm a big fan of gay films. You ought to watch 'Close to Leo' (French movie with subs) or 'Crystal Boys' (Taiwanese 20 part series with no subs - you'll need to read the book to make sense of it)

[Jingthing]

I liked Yossi and Jagger but I'm sorry I can't be doing with beards

Yeah, I agree! BTW, there is a new film coming out this year called Yossi about Yossi later in life. Should be good! The musical one, Mary Lou, I also really liked.

I'm a big fan of gay films. You ought to watch 'Close to Leo' (French movie with subs) or 'Crystal Boys' (Taiwanese 20 part series with no subs - you'll need to read the book to make sense of it)

Seen them both. There are so many. Being at the first Frameline where the films were such utter crap we really have come a long way baby.

[endure]

"Cold showers" and "The Witnesses" with Johan Liberau.

[Jingthing]

"Cold showers" and "The Witnesses" with Johan Liberau.

I'll have to look those up.

If this thread gets closed because of political issues, maybe a new thread about gay film and gay festivals in general?

Here's something Thai related. One of my best memories of Frameline was when that THAI film was released about the kathoey volleyball players, Iron Ladies. The cast was there at the film and they were absolutely hilarious! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqWt7rO2pEI

Edited April 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, Jingy, I think it's possible to discuss political ethics of film festivals without making it ENTIRELY about the political issue involved, unless of course getting a thread in the gay subforum on that political issue was the only real reason you started this thread (heh, heh, heh- not that I know you well or anything).

For example: should gay film festivals make editorial decisions at all? (that's a softy) and to what extent should political controversy either enliven the material chosen, or restrict it? Are there any similar cases which can be made which for some reason seemed 'less' controversial? Does it matter if the state/states in question are themselves more or less pro or anti- gay?

[isanbirder]

Well, I voted No, because I think we have problems enough without interfering in another country's politics. A Film Festival should be a Film Festival, not a political platform.

[Jingthing]

Well, Jingy, I think it's possible to discuss political ethics of film festivals without making it ENTIRELY about the political issue involved, unless of course getting a thread in the gay subforum on that political issue was the only real reason you started this thread (heh, heh, heh- not that I know you well or anything).

For example: should gay film festivals make editorial decisions at all? (that's a softy) and to what extent should political controversy either enliven the material chosen, or restrict it? Are there any similar cases which can be made which for some reason seemed 'less' controversial? Does it matter if the state/states in question are themselves more or less pro or anti- gay?

I have NEVER ever heard of a gay international film festival even talk about rejecting a film from ANY COUNTRY other than Israel based on its country of origin. So to discuss this topic without being silly, you can't avoid the part that it is Israel being targeted for this kind of controversial boycott. Films from countries with really bad policies towards gays would indeed be ESPECIALLY welcome. Israel on the other hand has the most liberal policies towards gays in the middle east by far, but interestingly that fact is part of the reason the pro boycott WANT to boycott gay Israeli film (as they think it makes Israel look too good)! I really don't know what you're on about regarding this topic. This is a gay related topic though it relates to other aspects of the world. Is this supposed to be a forum only for "pure" 100 percent gay themes? Many of the gay themed films in gay film festivals are about a lot more than just the gay aspect. We are part of the world, not living in a small compartment. I agree the idea here isn't to talk about the Israel-Palestinian conflict in general. Plenty of places to do that, and if you suspect that was my intention to want to go there here, you are very wrong. Edited April 19, 2012 by Jingthing

[endure]

"Cold showers" and "The Witnesses" with Johan Liberau.

I'll have to look those up.

If this thread gets closed because of political issues, maybe a new thread about gay film and gay festivals in general?

There's a sticky with films/books etc at the top of the forum. The guy who played Xiao Min in Crystal Boys was in another gay Taiwanese movie. I'm trying to remember what it's called.

Edited April 19, 2012 by endure

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, JT, to make things more general for you, there have been many historical occasions in many countries when artists or cultural representatives excluded themselves or were excluded on the basis of making a political point - it's a practice as old as the hills. Assuming that Frameline is not tied to some kind of particular equal-opportunity requirements based on government links and/or funds, then why not them, too? I'm not arguing the point of whether their political point is right or not, you will notice- and I'm not saying that Israeli gay films aren't worth seeing, or that they wouldn't make it a more enjoyable event. I'm saying that it's their festival, they call the shots. If their decision offends enough people, then those people could boycott them, too- and so on.

I mean, if what you said above- that you find it disgusting that they make a political call affecting the film lineup, and that's why you posted this thread - is true, would that hold true for you in EVERY example of an artistic or cultural boycott? It would *always* seem disgusting? Or would it depend on exactly what call was made and by whom?

[isanbirder]

I made my point above... but I wonder why only JT, IJWT and Endure have anything to say on this?

[geriatrickid]

I made my point above... but I wonder why only JT, IJWT and Endure have anything to say on this?

I do, but my comments would be incendiary. The problem with boycotts like this are that they hit and punish the people that actually make a big positive difference. I can see the boycott getting support from holy rollers in Israel as they abhor anything remotely gay. (I'm not trying to spark controversy, but you know what I mean, I hope.) I deeply resent the boycotts particularly the ones that are directed at the arts and sciences. I was party to one where people on the fringes of a scientific conference wanted to prevent some Israeli speakers. It had no support from the non government appointed arab participants and they were embarrassed by the meddlers, especially since the conference was of benefit to everyone.

My experience has been that it is never the people with a vested interest, i.e. the film makers and artists themselves that want these boycotts. I don't even understand what the point of a boycott of the Israeli films would be. Who do the initiators think they are punishing? What these buffoons fail to understand is that there are also Israelis of arab origin that are gay and participate in these films. If do gooders want to show support, then they should go and invest in these people's films and help the distribution.

However, its San Francisco and people are a bit strange in that beautiful city. Must be from eating all the Rice a Roni.

Edited April 22, 2012 by geriatrickid

[Mitker]

Voted no.

Boycott makes sense in case movies are ordered or condoned by a government that global opinion disapprove.

The list of such would be long.

But imagine someone manages to independently produce an valuable movie while being citizen of Iran, North Korea, The Vatican or Israel.. I just hope it will be shown. At the end, it may contribute to a positive change.

Let's not treat particular individuals as representative of any government unless they are such.

[mikecwm]

The only country in the Middle East (pre-Arab Spring) where a Muslim got to vote? - Israel.

[LeCharivari]

I made my point above... but I wonder why only JT, IJWT and Endure have anything to say on this?

Only guessing, IB, but I'd imagine that most gay men have about as much interest in "gay themed films" as most straight men do in reading a Mills and Boon novel.

[Jingthing]

I made my point above... but I wonder why only JT, IJWT and Endure have anything to say on this?

Only guessing, IB, but I'd imagine that most gay men have about as much interest in "gay themed films" as most straight men do in reading a Mills and Boon novel.

I don't agree with you. (Surprising. ) Gay film has been HUGELY important to gay people all over the world. To see images of ourselves onscreen in the primary story telling medium of our age, all kinds of versions of ourselves from saintly to criminal, has been very powerful.

I mean, you really don't get it. That's why filmmakers can get budget for gay films of interest to a limited segment of the population BECAUSE a significant percentage of the gay identified population will want to see the film. For the future, I'd be worried about ... torrents.

It is true depending on the country there is a question on exposure to international gay film. That's why organizations like Frameline are so great; that is a big part of their mission. I have had some wonderful experiences exposing some quality international gay film to Thai people who can understand enough English to follow the movies or subtitles. The responses have always been very enthusiastic. Like a new world opening to them they had no idea about.

Another great thing about the INTERNATIONAL aspect of gay film relates to the innate progressive nature of so many gay people. As a rough generality, we are much less concerned about class, race, nationality of those we are attracted to. For example, in Israel, gay affairs between Jews and Arabs are very common. We are ahead of the curve in such things, and cinema reflections of this are, again, potentially powerful for more than the gay world.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Jingthing

[Ijustwannateach]

Gay film is tremendously important, and most gay men I have met in any number of countries have an interest in it one way or another. It is an important way of demonstrating, celebrating, and discussing difference and identity among ourselves and side-by-side with straights. Just the other day a Thai friend pointed out to me there is a gay-themed Thai movie on right now, called 'Home', which he recommended I see.

(What is a 'Mills and Boon' whatever?)

And JT, that would have been a lovely inclusion in your OP, but thanks for writing it now.

[Ijustwannateach]

Btw, JT, as another recent example of a cultural boycott for political reasons: The Bahrain F-1 races. Once again, I'm not going to take a position on whether the boycott is 'justified' by the political events, but would you find that equally senseless/disgusting, considering that the regime under criticism is clearly not repressive towards race car teams (in the same sense that the Israeli cultural film boycott is not apparently actually about Israeli repression towards gays).

[Jingthing]

Btw, JT, as another recent example of a cultural boycott for political reasons: The Bahrain F-1 races. Once again, I'm not going to take a position on whether the boycott is 'justified' by the political events, but would you find that equally senseless/disgusting, considering that the regime under criticism is clearly not repressive towards race car teams (in the same sense that the Israeli cultural film boycott is not apparently actually about Israeli repression towards gays).

Nice try but they are totally different kinds of situations. The Israeli government isn't putting on Frameline's S.F. Intl gay film festival. Frameline, an American gay nonprofit cultural organization is. Frameline has always been open to screening films from ALL nations, regardless of how repressive their governments are to gays or to anyone else. Like I said before, it would be a bonus to screen gay themed films from countries repressive to gays. People protesting Frameline are not trying to shut down the S.F. Intl Film Festival; they are just trying to force Frameline into discriminating against ONE country, a country that happens to be a good place for gay people and the best place in the middle east for Arab gays. Oddly, from their twisted logic, the thing they really hate about gay Israeli film is that it highlights how progressive Israel is on gay issues. Which begs the question, if Israel was horrid to gays, would they be PROMOTING the Israeli films? Yes, totally disgusting.

BTW, these people who want to protest and call attention to Israeli policies they oppose, they could simply have a legal protest outside during the days the gay Israeli films are screened. That would get lots of press and they could deliver their message about so called pinkwashing, without depriving film lovers of the great movies from Israel in a festival setting which often involves getting to meet the director and actors.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/video/video-protests-mar-bahrain-f1-race/article2410291/

Edited April 22, 2012 by Jingthing

[endure]

I made my point above... but I wonder why only JT, IJWT and Endure have anything to say on this?

Only guessing, IB, but I'd imagine that most gay men have about as much interest in "gay themed films" as most straight men do in reading a Mills and Boon novel.

I love gay films - even the rubbish ones. I always have.

[endure]

(What is a 'Mills and Boon' whatever?)

'Mills and Boons' are romantic novels written for women in the UK. The literary world looks down on them because they aren't 'proper' books but they give lots of people pleasure which is books are for.

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks for the cultural note, Endure!

JT, actually your position makes more sense to me now. But what about a more overall boycott, as with the very broad-reaching embargo of South Africa during apartheid? If viewed as an attempt towards something like that (whether you agree with the negative position or not), would it be more politically supportable and seem less inconsistent?

[Jingthing]

Thanks for the cultural note, Endure!

JT, actually your position makes more sense to me now. But what about a more overall boycott, as with the very broad-reaching embargo of South Africa during apartheid? If viewed as an attempt towards something like that (whether you agree with the negative position or not), would it be more politically supportable and seem less inconsistent?

I am not really sure what you are asking. It sounds like you know little about the anti-Israeli tactics widely going on in the world today. Some groups are actively trying to boycott everything from Israel. Some are for that, minus cultural products and academic freedom exchange. Some are for only boycotting products coming directly from the occupied West Bank. As Noam Chomsky and others have pointed out boycotting "everything" from Israel means all of you reading this must immediately throw your computers in the garbage. There is lots of Israel in your computer.

Now I am even more confused. First you say what to me is a 100 percent legit GAY issue, the attempt to boycott GAY Israeli film at the most important GAY film festival in the world is not purely gay enough. Then you bring up a completely un-gay topic, protests against a formula one race done to glorify a repressive regime in its country. Now a non-gay question about Israeli boycott strategies.

Anyway, back to what I intended this thread to be more about, the GAY film festival, here is another reason why boycotting ONLY gay Israeli films would be so sleazy and so very hypocritical. These film festivals are international in nature. Does anyone imagine that Israel is the only country in the world with policies worthy of protesting with films in international film festivals? Why doesn't the gay film festival in Paris boycott American gay films? There is a long list of countries whose government's have acted offensively. Why single out Israel? If there was a gay film from Syria, do you reckon anyone would want to boycott that? OF COURSE NOT. If the ethics are going to be so pure, why not boycott ALL films from all countries whose governments have erred. It will be a ... VERY SHORT ... festival.

BTW, with such a boycott ... no THAI gay films either.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

...

Just the other day a Thai friend pointed out to me there is a gay-themed Thai movie on right now, called 'Home', which he recommended I see.

...

Here is some info about Home.

http://www.enjoythaimovies.com/

Interesting, on the movieseer website they incorrectly show the film to be the 2008 French film also called Home, but as this film in Thai with English subtitles, its obviously the new Thai film being shown.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Gay film has been HUGELY important to gay people all over the world. To see images of ourselves onscreen in the primary story telling medium of our age, all kinds of versions of ourselves from saintly to criminal, has been very powerful.

I mean, you really don't get it.

You're right (for a change!). I really don't get it. I just don't have any interest in seeing a film (or reading a book) just because it happens to have a gay theme or touch on a gay subject, unless the film itself is of any interest to me. I'm just not that obsessed about being gay, I suppose.

That's why filmmakers can get budget for gay films of interest to a limited segment of the population BECAUSE a significant percentage of the gay identified population will want to see the film. For the future, I'd be worried about ... torrents.

Can't agree there either - except for Brokeback Mountain gay movies are very low budget (Iron Ladies and Metrosexual, both of which I have seen and enjoyed, cost about a million dollars each, but they appealed to a wide Thai audience) and, as gays become more "mainstream" in the future I would imagine that they'll just become part of mainstream movies (rather like black subjects) instead of a separate genre.

Another great thing about the INTERNATIONAL aspect of gay film relates to the innate progressive nature of so many gay people. As a rough generality, we are much less concerned about class, race, nationality of those we are attracted to. .... We are ahead of the curve in such things, and cinema reflections of this are, again, potentially powerful for more than the gay world.

Now there you are opening up a whole new ball game! ... and one I wouldn't necessarily agree with even as a "rough generality", as while it may be true that gays are "much less concerned about class, race, nationality of those we are attracted to" this does not necessarily mean that we (gays) are either "progressive" by nature or "ahead of the curve". It could be just as likely (more so, in my opinion) that we are drawn together by a common enemy (discrimination) and that once that enemy goes then we will become just as bigoted and racist as the next man.