Multinational Superstore Chain, Selling Expired Food

[h90]

Here they were talking about chickens, but in many western countries, when you buy ham and bacon, it is normally about 20% added water. Easy to tell, when you put it in the pan, their the ones that shrink very fast. Easy to see when you can compare them.

20 %

I would call 120 % still OK

Somewhere in the middle I would say. The food manufacturing company I mentioned earlier in the thread also produced hams. When the leg had been deboned it would be put on a slow moving belt and passed through an injection machine. They would go in around the size of a rugby or volly ball and come out the size of a medicine ball.

I don't know the actual figures, but it begins with pigs that have more water in the muscle.

Than the ham get injected with salt+water+some jelly (I don't know the English word).

Friend of mine run a lot experiments what mix you can inject without it coming out again.

120 % was a joke but much more than 20 % for sure.

[Pseudolus]

I assume this conversation has deviated from the conversation about supermarkets here in Thailand into a comparison of laws in different laws all round the world which has no relevance. What is the point of bringing up DEFRA in a conversation about supermarkets in Thailand? It's like me jumping onto a Forum in the UK, and in a conversation about Milk state "well, the free range milk you can get is from buffalo but they don't give much milk". Just irrelevant.

Back the Dutch Milk, I think it tastes funny; even the 0% fat milk tastes very creamy to me, so I never bought it again. My last resort milk is is Meiji and even that I have consumed after 10 + days. I stick to chokchai farm milk now which starts to turn after a respectable 5-7 days after opening; it's refreshing that it's quickly not fresh perhaps?

[h90]

expiration dates for dried products and other stuff like honey is there so you can throw it away and buy more.

Honey can stay a 1000 years, it get crystals and get hard but you can make it warm and add a little water and it is the same again.

Sugar, Salt, high percentage alcohol can stay for millenniums.

Canned food often for decades (not always there are exceptions)

Something like bread, yoghurt, milk, you know when it is broken. No one will drink a milk that isn't good anymore.

Meat normally easy to smell

[regine]

I assume this conversation has deviated from the conversation about supermarkets here in Thailand into a comparison of laws in different laws all round the world which has no relevance. What is the point of bringing up DEFRA in a conversation about supermarkets in Thailand? It's like me jumping onto a Forum in the UK, and in a conversation about Milk state "well, the free range milk you can get is from buffalo but they don't give much milk". Just irrelevant.

My point was why are people holding Thai supermarkets at a higher standard than to those stores in their own Western countries. A quote from the OP said the store wouldn't get away with it in a "developed society".

People on the forum were wrongly assuming that it is illegal to sell expired products in their home countries when it isn't. Me bringing up DEFRA and the laws from the USA, Ireland, and Canada showed that it's not illegal in these countries either, so why are people getting upset that it's happening in Thailand. It's not against the law in Thailand either.

Edited April 21, 2012 by regine

[surayu]

I luckily belong to one of those countries where selling expired food is illegal, at least someone got this right there, and even the USA neighbouring country Canada got it right.

Canadian Food Agency:

You can buy and eat foods after the "best before" date has passed. However, when this date has passed, the food may lose some of its freshness and flavour, or its texture may have changed. Some of its nutritional value, such as vitamin C content, may also be lost. Remember that "best before" dates are not indicators of food safety, neither before nor after the date. They apply to unopened products only. Once opened, the shelf life of a food may change.

Why don't you put the rest of it or just put a link to your source? Is it because you are worried that someone might read this too and not just what you want them to believe?

"Food should not be eaten if the expiration date has passed. They should be discarded."

Source: http://www.inspection.gc.ca/food/consumer-centre/food-safety-tips/labelling-food-packaging-and-storage/date/eng/1332357469487/1332357545633

[surayu]

From Defra (Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

A product with a ‘use by’ date cannot be sold after that date and should not be used after midnight of that day.

Sometime might be a good idea to read what you write and maybe even try to understand it

[notmyself]

Than the ham get injected with salt+water+some jelly (I don't know the English word).

Friend of mine run a lot experiments what mix you can inject without it coming out again.

Jelly is correct though it was called 'high tension aspic jelly' when I was in the industry. Melting point was above that of the cooking temperature so it would remain solid and not leech out.

[regine]

I luckily belong to one of those countries where selling expired food is illegal, at least someone got this right there, and even the USA neighbouring country Canada got it right.

Canadian Food Agency:

You can buy and eat foods after the "best before" date has passed. However, when this date has passed, the food may lose some of its freshness and flavour, or its texture may have changed. Some of its nutritional value, such as vitamin C content, may also be lost. Remember that "best before" dates are not indicators of food safety, neither before nor after the date. They apply to unopened products only. Once opened, the shelf life of a food may change.

Why don't you put the rest of it or just put a link to your source? Is it because you are worried that someone might read this too and not just what you want them to believe?

"Food should not be eaten if the expiration date has passed. They should be discarded."

Source: http://www.inspectio...7/1332357545633

Did you even bother to read what foods have "expiration dates"?

What you're talking about is best before dates.

[regine]

From Defra (Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

A product with a ‘use by’ date cannot be sold after that date and should not be used after midnight of that day.

Sometime might be a good idea to read what you write and maybe even try to understand it

That's "use by". Which is different than "sell by", "best before", and "expiry".

And if you read my post, you would see that I said: "So your "sell by" comment must be company policy, it's not UK law. "Use By" dates are the only dates in the UK where store aren't allowed to sell product past. This in not the case, as I mentioned, in the USA or in Ireland. And again, this is Thailand so UK food laws obviously don't apply."

Edited April 21, 2012 by regine

[regine]

I luckily belong to one of those countries where selling expired food is illegal, at least someone got this right there, and even the USA neighbouring country Canada got it right.

Canadian Food Agency:

You can buy and eat foods after the "best before" date has passed. However, when this date has passed, the food may lose some of its freshness and flavour, or its texture may have changed. Some of its nutritional value, such as vitamin C content, may also be lost. Remember that "best before" dates are not indicators of food safety, neither before nor after the date. They apply to unopened products only. Once opened, the shelf life of a food may change.

Why don't you put the rest of it or just put a link to your source? Is it because you are worried that someone might read this too and not just what you want them to believe?

"Food should not be eaten if the expiration date has passed. They should be discarded."

Source: http://www.inspectio...7/1332357545633

From that link, it states that expiry dates are only on:

• formulated liquid diets (a nutritionally complete diet for persons using oral or tube feeding methods)
  
• foods represented for use in a very low-energy diet (foods sold only by a pharmacist and only with a written order from a physician)
  
• meal replacements (a formulated food that, by itself, can replace one or more daily meals)
  
• nutritional supplements (a food sold or represented as a supplement to a diet that may be inadequate in energy and essential nutrients)
  
• human milk substitutes (infant formula)
  

They are't on regular foods, best before dates are on foods in Canada, not expiry dates. The reason why expiry dates are required on the above items is for nutritional reasons. The nutritional content won't be the same past the expiration date, which is why people shouldn't consume it because people are usually using those items as a sole source of nutrition. You can't compare those items to regular food products like canned soups, breads, cookies, etc. which aren't allowed to have an expiry date in Canada. Manufacturers however can choose to put a best before date on if the product has a shelf life of over 90 days, it's not law though.

Edited April 21, 2012 by regine

[surayu]

Here some people getting a criminal charge for attempted murder for selling expired food

http://isticharia.org/en/news_desc.php?id=217

[regine]

Here some people getting a criminal charge for attempted murder for selling expired food

http://isticharia.or...desc.php?id=217

That's spoiled food. It's illegal to sell spoiled food in most countries.

Past the best before date doesn't equal spoiled.

A company could still be charged with selling spoiled food even if the best before date hasn't passed.

Perhaps in Lebanon they use the terms "expired" and "spoiled" interchangeably, but not in the Western nations I have previously listed.

There's a difference between "expiry", "sell by", "use by", and "best before". Meat doesn't expire.

Could a company in Canada be charged with selling meat past the best before date? No. Could a company in Canada be charged with selling spoiled meat? Yes.

Edited April 21, 2012 by regine

[surayu]

They are't on regular foods

Right, just have a look on the packages of the "regular food" you purchase everyday, you will notice that many show the letter "E" and sometime also another letter, "M", with another date , now, i am assuming that "M" stand for the manifacturing date, so "E" must to be "Euse by" or "Etter Efore", even my dog's food have an "E" date on the package and they are not even on a diet!

[regine]

They are't on regular foods

Right, just have a look on the packages of the "regular food" you purchase everyday, you will notice that many show the letter "E" and sometime also another letter, "M", with another date , now, i am assuming that "M" stand for the manifacturing date, so "E" must to be "Euse by" or "Etter Efore", even my dog's food have an "E" date on the package and they are not even on a diet!

I was talking specifically about Canada, because you provided a Canadian link. And if you're wondering why, it's because some manufacturers, like most consumers, are stupid and don't understand the difference between an expiration date, sell by date, use by date, and best before date in the country they sell their products in.

Countries like the USA make no distinction between the terms, whereas in Canada and the UK do.

http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/Transparency/Basics/ucm210073.htm

And yes, your dog's food would have any expiration date as pet food usually is the sole source of nutrition for domesticated animals.

[surayu]

And if you're wondering why, it's because some manufacturers, like most consumers, are stupid and don't understand the difference between an expiration date, sell by date, use by date, and best before date in the country they sell their products in.

And i can see that very good reason standing on front of a court of Law:

Judge: So what are your excuses for poisoning your own customers with expired food?

Seller: But they are stupids so it's they own faults, everybody can guess that we wrote "BB" but we meant "SB" even if Johnny was thinking it was more a case of a "FEHK", well just don't ask me about this one, Johnny is dyslexic, but in reality was just a case of a "E"!!! ohh these customers!!

[surayu]

The date when any particular food would not be suitable anymore for human consumption and pose a danger to someone's health, to me, is the only date that should be used, and should be made compulsory, not just an option...

[surayu]

Tesco, a UK company are not allowed to sell goods where the sell by date has passed, they would be fined a fixed amount muliplied by the number of items found. Here it seems its an opportunity to cut the loss and for others to make a quick profit. So long as its kept right and moved quick you can probably get away with it, depending on exactly what the product is and here the keeping is open to interpretation, mae pen rai,

Not allowed by whom?

I believe Exter meant to say the date for which a particular food would no longer be suitable for human consumption, but honestly, all those dates should display only this and nothing else, all these words are bringing only confusion!

So the law is "whom"

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/0146F2CF-3393-4182-9EB0-915E4031DC65/0/20110712JSP456_Vol3_Chap1_ApplicationsU.pdf

[regine]

Tesco, a UK company are not allowed to sell goods where the sell by date has passed, they would be fined a fixed amount muliplied by the number of items found. Here it seems its an opportunity to cut the loss and for others to make a quick profit. So long as its kept right and moved quick you can probably get away with it, depending on exactly what the product is and here the keeping is open to interpretation, mae pen rai,

Not allowed by whom?

I believe Exter meant to say the date for which a particular food would no longer be suitable for human consumption, but honestly, all those dates should display only this and nothing else, all these words are bringing only confusion!

So the law is "whom"

http://www.mod.uk/NR...plicationsU.pdf

As I already pointed out (and it is also in the link you just posted) there is no law in the UK that says stores cannot sell products past their "sell by" date. And "no longer be suitable for human consumption" = spoiled, so we already covered that.

Does an expired product mean the product is also spoiled? No.

Again, "use by" and "sell by" are two different things in the UK. This is not the case in the USA or Canada.

TIT so it really doesn't matter what UK laws say even if Tesco is a UK based company.

[regine]

The date when any particular food would not be suitable anymore for human consumption and pose a danger to someone's health, to me, is the only date that should be used, and should be made compulsory, not just an option...

That could be any date. As I said, that could happen even before the "sell by" date. And how are companies even suppose to come up with this magical date? Do a 75 year shelf life study on a can of peas to see when they will go bad?

Food regulators have taken this into consideration which is why the date you speak of isn't mandatory (with the exception of UK "use by" dates and sources of sole source nutrition due to nutritional reasons), because it's nearly impossible to find. That's why food laws are left up to food scientists and not to uneducated consumers.

[surayu]

TIT so it really doesn't matter what UK laws say even if Tesco is a UK based company.

Don't you think that this is the same way of thinking of all the companies that operates in countries where they can easily exploit workers without being prosecuted?

Exploiting customers is not different

[surayu]

That's why food laws are left up to food scientists and not to uneducated consumers.

To become a food scientist with the result of not caring about people's health it really spoils of all the efforts and time spent to reach that status, shouldn't we start to put labels on wrong doings too?

[surayu]

Just to make things a bit more clear, here is a few lines from the (UK)link i provided earlier:

0103.

There are a number of offences under the food law:

a. Selling food that is not of the nature, substance or quality demanded by the purchaser.

b. Falsely describing, advertising or presenting food.

Self explanatory really, if someone still has problem with that, i suggest reading it again and again till it will make sense.

[regine]

Don't you think that this is the same way of thinking of all the companies that operates in countries where they can easily exploit workers without being prosecuted?

Exploiting customers is not different

I fail to see how selling products past their "sell by" date is customer exploitation. It's not unjust or illegal. The date is clearly there on the package, consumers can choose whether or not to purchase the item.

And yes, I believe that recognition of sovereignty is a basic principle of democracy.

[regine]

Just to make things a bit more clear, here is a few lines from the (UK)link i provided earlier:

0103.

There are a number of offences under the food law:

a. Selling food that is not of the nature, substance or quality demanded by the purchaser.

b. Falsely describing, advertising or presenting food.

Self explanatory really, if someone still has problem with that, i suggest reading it again and again till it will make sense.

Obviously it is not self explanatory because you keep misinterpreting the law! 55555

The above sections have nothing to do with date coding.

[bartender100]

Not multi national, but beware Foodmart in Jomtien sells chilled pies that have been in the fridge for 2 weeks, I would not touch any products by that brand name (local)

[surayu]

Not multi national, but beware Foodmart in Jomtien sells chilled pies that have been in the fridge for 2 weeks, I would not touch any products by that brand name (local)

Just follow our friend suggestion and give them a try after an year or two, then reports back if you still can...

[surayu]

I believe Exter meant to say the date for which a particular food would no longer be suitable for human consumption, but honestly, all those dates should display only this and nothing else, all these words are bringing only confusion!

So the law is "whom"

http://www.mod.uk/NR...plicationsU.pdf

Just to make things a bit more clear, here is a few lines from the (UK)link i provided earlier:

0103.

There are a number of offences under the food law:

a. Selling food that is not of the nature, substance or quality demanded by the purchaser.

b. Falsely describing, advertising or presenting food.

Self explanatory really, if someone still has problem with that, i suggest reading it again and again till it will make sense.

Obviously it is not self explanatory because you keep misinterpreting the law! 55555

The above sections have nothing to do with date coding.

So what part of my interpretation of Exter's post you did not get?

[evadgib]

In the days before someone coined the phrase "Health & Safety" I recall eating Military rations from WW2 that had surfaced in the 70's!

[jcw]

I have seen fresh milk, Dutch Brand, for sale in Tesco that was 4 days past expiry. Stupid me even pointed it out to staff, they just put it back in the cool shelf. It was not discounted or anything.

That dutch milk never seems to curdle, ive had some in my fridge that was purchased before a work trip abroad and have come home and made a coffee with it. was fine and it was 3 months past the used by date !!

I have seen Dutch milk go off, but MEJI taste the same as long life milk .....Yuk

[surayu]

I recall eating Military rations from WW2 that had surfaced in the 70's!

When i was a little kid, i remember one of my playmates swallowing a fossil which was a few millions years old....