Vegetables

[loong]

Hi all,

From reading the posts here it seems that most just concentrate on Rice, Sugar cane, Cassava, Rubber etc.

Does nobody grow vegetables? If not why not?

I wonder if maybe people have tried but found it uneconomical due to theft etc. I realise that the mainstay crops are not so likely to be stolen as they all need processing to various degrees, but veg can be cut and straight to table or market. Maybe the prices available at the wholesale markets favour the middle man too much?

The Family want me to finance a little project. 8 rai of Cassava land for rent at 800BT/rai. Obviously there will be additional costs for ploughing, fertiliser etc, but I am thinking that it may be worth a go as it is not likely to cost me a fortune.

The soil is sandy, so not ideal for locking in nutrients. I know what a helpful lot you are, so if we go ahead with this I will probably be posting questions in the cassava thread.

I have no experience of farming, but I have maintained a small organic plot, mainly for growing veg for home consumption, although the missus has sold off some of the excess. A lot of the excess has been composted in order to improve the soil.

I am thinking that, if we rent this land, that I may experiment on a small section with some vegetables as a profit crop.

My worries are that it will probably take at least a couple of years to condition the soil in just a small section and it will always be in the back of my mind that if we do enjoy a reasonable amount of success, either the rent would increase or the owner will rent the land to someone else or take it back.

I would like to hear about your experiences of growing a vegetable crop and also if anyone has had problems with improving soil quality on rented land only to get kicked in the knaks by the owner.

[tingtong]

hi

we grow some vegetables, but only to our own use.

how i see it, we had success with chili, long beans, shallots, also mushroom worked out fine; so-so results with tomatoes, corn, carrot.

clayish soil, pretty organic way growing them, little manure from the poultries, and some water from the fish lake. no chemical fertiliser.

in our area, some grow chili and corn on the dry season, also few long beans i saw, not much else, lots of land stays unused during the dry season if not near to canal/ditch. i am not sure how much it would worth commercially to grow chili for example, as they seem to do good...but since all that unused land near by, i guess they would plant part at least, if there would be good return vs. work put in.

[IsaanAussie]

Loong,

You have the knowledge to grow vegetables the difference here is scale. Most people can keep up a backyard veggie patch but 8 rai is a different matter. If you are going to reserve a small piece and grow cassava on the rest then fine as long as either you or someone else will actually be there and do the work.

Cassava grown around here is like rice all backside and elbows for a brief period at the start and finish and little else. Daily watering, weeding and harvesting is not on the agenda for most Thais.

The second point you make about the time to condition the soil is a simple one. My land is very fine clay and either rock or soup in consistency, but add good compost to it and your can grow anything immediately.

Third issue about getting screwed over if you develop the land. The answer is you probably will but so what? If you want the cake and eat it too solution, then but the plot. I started growing veggies on a plot that I rented and I believe it is a good first step. You get to see what happens cropwise and who amongst the family members pushing you to invest is actually prepared to put in the hard yards and who is just mouth.

[loong]

Thanks for the replies.

about 120 views, but no reply from anyone who actually farms veggies on any scale. Maybe nobody here on this forum does it.

IA

I do realise that there is a vast difference between managing my veggie plot (not much more than a quarter of a rai) and actually farming and making a profit. I certainly wouldn't attempt to experiment with growing veg on the whole 8 rai. Although water is available from a river, it would need pumping out and so not feasable for the whole area anyway.

I would be around to oversee things most of the time, but I wouldn't be doing any of the actual work. I have no worries about working on my little plot as that is just for home consumption. Although I get on well with most people around here, I wouldn't want to risk somebody reporting me for working on a crop for profit.

I would probably start off with cowpea, not for selling, but to plough in to start improving the soil.

If you want the cake and eat it too solution, then but the plot

Guessing that is a typo and you mean buy the plot. Without any experience of farming on this sort of scale, I really wouldn't want to make that sort of investment until I knew that I could make it work. Lost a lot in the Global crisis, so have to be careful nowadays. Probably have enough to see me out, but not if I throw away too much on failed ventures:)

I agree that you can't necessarily rely on family members to put in the hard work. My BIL is a hard-worker and I would totally trust him to put in the effort, but he may not always be available as/when I need him.

It's all a bit up in the air at the moment. The current tenant is paid up to the end of this month, but has now said that he wants to keep use of some of the land for a bit longer as some of the cassava is not ready for harvest. I think that current price is not breaking any records either at about 2Bt/Kilo

He has also told me that he spent 4,500 Baht on fertiliser for the whole 8 rai, seems too little to me, so for sure the soil will be depleted of nutrients.

[Scoop1]

Hi Loong, you could always try a small simple hydroponic set up if you have the water, just a basic manual system would not set you back to much, and you could improve your soil as you you go along

Scoop

Edited April 22, 2012 by Scoop1

[oldestswinger]

One of my neighbours is a veggie farmer. Grows just about everything on about 20 rai. Two things are immediately apparent when you see his operation. First he has at least 8 people working full time - not sure if they are all family. Second he can't rely on ponds for water and has a couple of wells.

A wholesaler comes 2 or 3 times a week and collects his produce.

[loong]

Hi Loong, you could always try a small simple hydroponic set up if you have the water, just a basic manual system would not set you back to much, and you could improve your soil as you you go along

Scoop

Hello Scoop, thanks for your input.

Hydroponics is just going too far into unknown territory for me at this time.

Although I wouldn't be so much "hands on" if I go ahead with this, I just love the feel of soil between my fingers. In fact I'm probably more obsessed with improving soil quality than the actual crop. My Missus and her family really can't understand why I grow so many legumes and just dig them in. The locals really think it funny the way that I compost instead of cutting everything back, letting it dry and burning it. Another source of amusement for them is/was the way that I would shovel up any cow crap from the roadway and incorporate it into my compost heaps.

Nowadays some of the locals ask me what chemicals I am using as they don't understand the concept of organic gardening and they don't understand why some of my veggies look so good. This year, my chinese kale has been outstanding, even with the hot sun it is not bitter.

Now that many of my neighbours have accepted that the Farang is crazy, when they clear some areas they ask me if I want the pile of vegetable matter and I will go and get it to put on my heaps. I'm happy and they are happy. Same with banana plants, once they have collected the fruit, I will go and cut down the stem to chop up for mulch.

I love it

[loong]

One of my neighbours is a veggie farmer. Grows just about everything on about 20 rai. Two things are immediately apparent when you see his operation. First he has at least 8 people working full time - not sure if they are all family. Second he can't rely on ponds for water and has a couple of wells.

A wholesaler comes 2 or 3 times a week and collects his produce.

Thanks for replying Oldest swinger.

Does your neighbour look like he is quite affluent? Do you think that he is doing well? Do you mind telling me where you are situated?

I've had a borehole drilled to supply water on my plot and would certainly consider having one on the land to supply water. When you refer to a well, how do they pump the water out?

That's very interesting that the wholesaler comes and collects the produce. One of my main concerns about getting into this is where to sell the produce. It would be great if a wholesaler collected it as transport can be quite a significant cost factor.

I'm 25 Km North of Khon Kaen and I think that there is a wholesale market there, but to be honest I have no idea about how to go about selling the crop.

Any further info that you ahve will be much appreciated.

[oldestswinger]

Loong, It's sometimes difficult to tell how well off people are, but he is certainly very successful at what he is doing.

We're on the Korat/Buriram border and the wholesaler is in, I believe, Chokchai. I'm told that he'll collect depending on how much produce there is.

The water is pumped out using an electric pump

[transam]

My friend gets 5 bht for a kilo of chillies.

[tingtong]

My friend gets 5 bht for a kilo of chillies.

dont you miss a zero somewhere?!?

i just came from the market, but havent seen any chili for 10-15 baht/kg range, what would justify such low price of selling from your friend.

drying it might be a way to go? sure he will lose on the weight, but once rainy season starts, chillies will be gone, definately the case in my area.

while not veggies, we try some direct selling with the fish we have, in the near village(s) with pretty good results so far...this week when empty out one lake, will see if we can do a little more quantity than 3-4kg a go...sold around 40kg in this month so far?...that sells in a few minutes, and pays part for the things we need to buy. the bonus: we get market retail price, so, profit levels are way above going with a wholesaler. the limitation: at a point probably quantity comes into the picture, so, then we will aim a combination of retail and wholesale.

probably some of this can be translated to chilis too? or maybe i am wrong. we only grow chilis to our own use, or share some with the immediate family.

[somo]

I can give you pretty accurate costings if you want for cassava farming.

I would grab the chance of renting the 8 rai at 800 Baht as certainly in my area rented land is no longer easy to find and that price is reasonable. You may be able to do a deal whereby you get to use it for 2 or 3 years by paying up front. (It is also more profitable to grow cassava for 18 months rather than 12) It would then be worth investing more in the land.

[loong]

Hi TingTong,

I wouldn't really be interested in something like chillies, probably be too labour intensive as would need to be picked very regularly. I was thinking more along the lines of Pak khana (Chinese Kale) or Gwang dtoong dawk (flowering pak choi), maybe some type of beans/peas. The Thais are probably not the highest on the table of vegetable consumption, but I see these for sale in the markets year round.

I will try some direct selling initially, but if it is reasonably successful and I was to turn more of the land over to veggies, I would really have to sell to a middle man.

[loong]

I can give you pretty accurate costings if you want for cassava farming.

I would grab the chance of renting the 8 rai at 800 Baht as certainly in my area rented land is no longer easy to find and that price is reasonable. You may be able to do a deal whereby you get to use it for 2 or 3 years by paying up front. (It is also more profitable to grow cassava for 18 months rather than 12) It would then be worth investing more in the land.

Thanks Somo, I would be interested to know up to date costings. I have already read the cassava thread and will be posting any queries specific to cassava there.

Somebody else has approached the owner wanting to rent the land to grow sugarcane. She has told us that she is only interested in renting to us. I think that she is a peed off with never getting her full rent on time from the previous tenants.

Although the rent is cheap enough, I don't really want to commit to more than a year initially. If it turns out to be one big headache I won't want to prolong the agony

Does anyone have any idea of approximate running costs of a diesel pump, maybe per 1000lt water?

[somo]

Cassava costings.

Below is roughly what is costs me to grow the stuff.

Prices are per rai.

Ploughing 300

ridging 300

planting 400 (assuming you have free stems)

spraying with pre emergence weed chemi 200

fertilizer and application 1200

weed spraying x 2 800

Outlay about 3,200. There are always other bits and pieces so allow 3,500.

About a year later you should have about 4 tons of cassava in the ground possibly 5.

The cost of getting it out of the ground and to the company buying it for me works out

about 500-600 Baht/ton. This covers cutting and storing the stems, tractor to unearth the tubors,

labour to load the tuk tuk and transport to the company.

Assume 600. Thus if the current price is 2.50/kilo you end up with

about 1.90 as the price in the ground.

Say you do well and harvest 4.5 tons. You end up with 8,360 Baht/rai

Less the 3,500 above gives you a profit of 4860/rai

Note that all depends on the price at the time you harvest. If the price were 2.00/kilo

your profit would be just 2,800/rai but if it were 3.00/kilo profit would be 7,300 Baht

It therefore becomes important to be able to choose when you harvest, a luxury many poor farmers

don't have as they owe money to the company buying it.

Being able to leave it in the ground for an additional 6 months over a second rainy season

totally transforms the economics as for very little extra outlay you will nearly double your harvest

and you also can take advantage of any spikes in the price.

Other points to note. You need to have people you trust working for you or someone who can oversee the work. If you don't half your fertilizer and weed killer will disappear. It is generally better if you can negotiate a price for each section rather than pay a daily rate.

None of the above is set in stone, labours rates seem to vary a lot but hopefully it gives you a better understanding of the costs involved.

[cooked]

On a personal note I don't fancy Cassava cultivation at all. The wife's family cultivates rice and doing all that work for 30 000 a year hardly seems worth it. I am thinking along the lines of growing and processing chili, by drying, making sauces. My wife doesn't know that there are other varieties of chili, some quite mild, some much stronger, so some experimentation along these lines would be interesting. Around here (Isaan) people grow kale, chili, basil and some beans and that's it. Not even sweet potatoes. Maybe I'll be finding out why next year.

All over Europe now farmers are being forced to find alternative crops, alternative sources of income, the smaller farmers are going out of business. I can't see this happening any time soon in Thailand but the fact that rice is now being imported from Cambodia is an indication of things to come.

There are many stories of people improving farm land that then find that the previously uninterested family or neighbours suddenly want it back. I would be very careful that everything is in order before I started on a piece of land that didn't belong to me or I just thought belonged to me.

[Gary A]

We had a huge termite mound on the farm. We hired a Ford tractor and driver to level it. For some reason the termite mound dirt is very fertile. My wife planted a garden there. Things grew very well but we harvested nothing. They went so far as to steal the peanuts right out of the ground. There is also a pond there that we stocked and fed the fish. I have no idea how they managed to steal every single fish but they did. We pumped the pond dry to irrigate the rice and there were NO fish left in it. If you don't live on or very near a pond or garden, they will steal everything.

[somo]

From what i have learnt cassava is probably the most profitable of all the crops if done right.

Once planted it can be left for a year except for some weed spraying. In that sense it is easy and a no brainer.

Khonwan, who sadly has given up on this forum, earns a fortune from it. Farming is not something to test out for a year

or so but is a longer term project. Once you have learnt what you are doing it can be a profitable, enjoyable and almost effortless activity. If you can purchase/rent the land at a reasonable price you then have a vehicle to double the money you invest each year which ain't too bad.

[loong]

Thanks for that Somo, it's good to have an idea of the real costs of somebody who is actually doing it.

Maybe a good idea if you repost in the Cassava thread? It's good info and may well interest other people

[loong]

On a personal note I don't fancy Cassava cultivation at all. The wife's family cultivates rice and doing all that work for 30 000 a year hardly seems worth it. I am thinking along the lines of growing and processing chili, by drying, making sauces. My wife doesn't know that there are other varieties of chili, some quite mild, some much stronger, so some experimentation along these lines would be interesting. Around here (Isaan) people grow kale, chili, basil and some beans and that's it. Not even sweet potatoes. Maybe I'll be finding out why next year.

All over Europe now farmers are being forced to find alternative crops, alternative sources of income, the smaller farmers are going out of business. I can't see this happening any time soon in Thailand but the fact that rice is now being imported from Cambodia is an indication of things to come.

There are many stories of people improving farm land that then find that the previously uninterested family or neighbours suddenly want it back. I would be very careful that everything is in order before I started on a piece of land that didn't belong to me or I just thought belonged to me.

I believe that it is a good idea to try something a little different from the norm. Seems to me that most farmers around here jump from one bandwagon to another. ie if something is fetching a good price in the market, next season everybody is growing it, causing an oversupply and depression in farm gate prices.

When you say that people in your area are growing Kale, I assume that you mean chinese kale. Do they grow it on any scale or just for home consumption and the occasional 5 or 10 baht sale to locals?

I have grown a lot of sweet potato over the last few years. They will grow in any soil, but better in loose crumbly soil to allow the root to expand. I am 100% organic on my small plot and mainly grow them to improve the soil. Lots of foliage for composting and the roots (or are they tubers?) improve the soil friability. The main problem is the weevils, they will find your crop and decimate it. If you want to grow sweet potatoes as a cash crop, I think that pesticides are probably a necessity unless you harvest while the roots are quite small. I think that the weevil enters the stem and so it takes some time to reach the root.

I was in Tesco-Lotus today and noticed that potatoes are 29 Baht per kg. Sweet potatoes imported from China are 85 Bt per kg. It does seem that there is a market possibility here.

[loong]

We had a huge termite mound on the farm. We hired a Ford tractor and driver to level it. For some reason the termite mound dirt is very fertile. My wife planted a garden there. Things grew very well but we harvested nothing. They went so far as to steal the peanuts right out of the ground. There is also a pond there that we stocked and fed the fish. I have no idea how they managed to steal every single fish but they did. We pumped the pond dry to irrigate the rice and there were NO fish left in it. If you don't live on or very near a pond or garden, they will steal everything.

This is my main concern - theft.

The little plot that i work on now is very close to our house, but still we suffer from people helping themselves to our mangoes. A lot of our chillies have disappeared overnight. As I said in my OP, I wonder if people stick to crops that need to be processed as these are not so likely to be stolen.

[somo]

You are right. A lot of theft is just opportunistic and for the table. It can be commercial though. About !8 months ago the price of cassava hit about 4 Baht/kilo and gangs started harvesting other farmers crops in surrounding areas. 3 thieves working overnight could easily earn themselves 15 - 20,000 baht. Luckily for us in the hills where we farm there are a lot of makeshift shacks/houses and everyone has a gun. We know and get on well with everyone so any thief trying their luck would likely end up with at least a limp and lose their Tuk Tuk. It is quite amazing how different life can be just 500 metres from the main road.

[cooked]

A friend told me that his mother in law regularly came into his vegetable garden and took everything that was eatable. Seriously though, instead of selling the crop directly to a buyer, setting up a potting/tinning/drying shed (with burglar alarms), something that enables you to process the stuff you are cultivating and to sell it when prices are high, seems the way to go. Thai farmers don't seem to be into this apart from rubber processing,

In answer to the question about kale, yes chinese kale, mainly for home consumption. I am amazed at the way they will sow whole packets of seed all at once and then be confronted by a jungle of stringy crowded plants that they then thin out throwing out 90 % of what they have. They also don't have any idea of selecting the best plants for seeds and collecting seeds themselves. Insects can be kept off developing seeds with gauze bags or similar.

PS I also brew my own beer for home consumption so will be sowing a small plot of barley next year as well as wheat to get some decent flour. Plenty of possibilities as long as you don't need to make a living out of it.

[loong]

You are right. A lot of theft is just opportunistic and for the table. It can be commercial though. About !8 months ago the price of cassava hit about 4 Baht/kilo and gangs started harvesting other farmers crops in surrounding areas. 3 thieves working overnight could easily earn themselves 15 - 20,000 baht. Luckily for us in the hills where we farm there are a lot of makeshift shacks/houses and everyone has a gun. We know and get on well with everyone so any thief trying their luck would likely end up with at least a limp and lose their Tuk Tuk. It is quite amazing how different life can be just 500 metres from the main road.

That is surprisng and disgusting. I would never imagine that such a thing would happen with cassava. The thieves must really have some nerve. I would have thought that if they were carting the crop away in a tuk tuk that that would take a few trips to shift 5 tonnes. Mind you I have no idea of the volume of a tonne of cassava, pick up loads or otherwise.

[loong]

A friend told me that his mother in law regularly came into his vegetable garden and took everything that was eatable. Seriously though, instead of selling the crop directly to a buyer, setting up a potting/tinning/drying shed (with burglar alarms), something that enables you to process the stuff you are cultivating and to sell it when prices are high, seems the way to go. Thai farmers don't seem to be into this apart from rubber processing,

In answer to the question about kale, yes chinese kale, mainly for home consumption. I am amazed at the way they will sow whole packets of seed all at once and then be confronted by a jungle of stringy crowded plants that they then thin out throwing out 90 % of what they have. They also don't have any idea of selecting the best plants for seeds and collecting seeds themselves. Insects can be kept off developing seeds with gauze bags or similar.

PS I also brew my own beer for home consumption so will be sowing a small plot of barley next year as well as wheat to get some decent flour. Plenty of possibilities as long as you don't need to make a living out of it.

Yes, family members do get quite a few veg from my garden, but it is a bit of give and take. I do get some bananas and other stuff from them. Although to honest, it's more take than give on their part.

As I am considering growing leafy green veggies, there isn't really a lot that can be done re processing. Only thing that I can thing of is maybe pickling mustard leaf.

I'm not so much amazed at them sowing a whole pack of seeds. Seeds tend to have a limited life once opened unless kept cool and airtight. I am amazed when they sow the whole pack in a relatively small area. If they decide to transplant they give no thought to the roots and simply pull them out without even loosening the soil. The root damage means that many die and the rest vegetate very slowly. Considering that the Thais here come mailnly from farming stock, their lack of knowledge is unbelievable.

Mind you, I have some areas of tightly packed seedlings in my garden. I've collected God knows how many thousands of seed from my Gwang dtung plants. Where I've cleared the grass, I've just thrown the seed, just to make sure that there are roots in the soil when the heavy rains come. I'm going to England for a visit soon and will be away for about 3 weeks.

Brewing your own beer? You should keep that quiet or everyone will be wanting to visit you

[cooked]

ladies night every night.

[Gary A]

You are right. A lot of theft is just opportunistic and for the table. It can be commercial though. About !8 months ago the price of cassava hit about 4 Baht/kilo and gangs started harvesting other farmers crops in surrounding areas. 3 thieves working overnight could easily earn themselves 15 - 20,000 baht. Luckily for us in the hills where we farm there are a lot of makeshift shacks/houses and everyone has a gun. We know and get on well with everyone so any thief trying their luck would likely end up with at least a limp and lose their Tuk Tuk. It is quite amazing how different life can be just 500 metres from the main road.

That is surprisng and disgusting. I would never imagine that such a thing would happen with cassava. The thieves must really have some nerve. I would have thought that if they were carting the crop away in a tuk tuk that that would take a few trips to shift 5 tonnes. Mind you I have no idea of the volume of a tonne of cassava, pick up loads or otherwise.

Here in our area the town drunk sobered up and was cutting sugar cane. He took the load of cut cane to the weigh station but his reputation preceded him. When asked where the cane came from, he had no answer because everyone in the area knows he has no land.

[somo]

Sorry Loong.

In the country they call the small lorries tuk tuks as in below

A small one can carry 2.5 tons of cassava but there are larger versions.

[loong]

Sorry Loong.

In the country they call the small lorries tuk tuks as in below

A small one can carry 2.5 tons of cassava but there are larger versions.

Ah, I get it. Never knew that they were called that, never came up in conversation.

Not the fastest getaway vehicle though

[grimleybob]

Sorry Loong.

In the country they call the small lorries tuk tuks as in below

A small one can carry 2.5 tons of cassava but there are larger versions.

That vehicle is an Etan or Etang