My Dogs Hate Each Other

[NewlyMintedThai]

I have three dogs -- let's call them A, B, and C.

A and B, both males, cannot stand each other. They have divided their terroritory (A has taken the indoors and B the outdoors), and they try to kill each other (literally) should either step foot on the other's turf.

C is a female, and gets on well with both A and B.

Can anyone suggest a way of culvtivating a better relationship between A and B -- at least to the point where they stop trying to kill each other?

I have had all three dogs since pups and have no idea what has caused the bad blood. I'm tired of having to take them to the vet to have their wounds sewn up.

Thanks in advance for any pointers.

[Pseudolus]

Where to begin.

1) Are the males neutered? If not, why not? Most aggression is solved over night.Is the female neurtered? Again, if not why not? Get it done as well to decrease competition over her.

2) You are not the Alpha male in the house. At a guess, the one that is dominating the inside is due to it being the home. You need to correct that straight away (Cesar Milan video on pack leader behavior will do it).

3) How often do you walk them? Depending upon breed, a rough rule of thumb is under 10kg, walk 1km per day (in morning to tire them). Over 10kg; 2km + per day. Walking two fighting dogs together will often help them bond, especially if you get them on the same side,and both being submissive to you (not pulling).

4) Is it actually a real aggression problem; not just dominance? Does one particular dog always instigate it? What triggers the fighting - anything that is a common thread?

5) Meal times - what happens? Alpha males decides who eats and when. Feed them together, dominate their food space; take away their bowls when they are eating, when they try to eat or push you to eat, then take it away. Dominate them. Fighting will stop when they know you are the boss.

6) When they fight, are you encouraging them by panicking (you panic, they increase intensity of fighting because they both sense your panic and then are trying to defend you as well... because they are the protector.. as they are dominant over you.

cripes... the list goes on... without seeing it, it's hard to say exactly why but it's usually one or both trying to dominate when in reality you should be; OR, not enough exercise; OR, not neutered; Or you actually have a crazy dog in one of them. As thy are pointers, they really need 3-5km walk a day; these are hunting dogs after all.......

Edited April 24, 2012 by Pseudolus

[NewlyMintedThai]

Where to begin.

1) Are the males neutered? If not, why not? Most aggression is solved over night.Is the female neurtered? Again, if not why not? Get it done as well to decrease competition over her.

2) You are not the Alpha male in the house. At a guess, the one that is dominating the inside is due to it being the home. You need to correct that straight away (Cesar Milan video on pack leader behavior will do it).

3) How often do you walk them? Depending upon breed, a rough rule of thumb is under 10kg, walk 1km per day (in morning to tire them). Over 10kg; 2km + per day. Walking two fighting dogs together will often help them bond, especially if you get them on the same side,and both being submissive to you (not pulling).

4) Is it actually a real aggression problem; not just dominance? Does one particular dog always instigate it? What triggers the fighting - anything that is a common thread?

5) Meal times - what happens? Alpha males decides who eats and when. Feed them together, dominate their food space; take away their bowls when they are eating, when they try to eat or push you to eat, then take it away. Dominate them. Fighting will stop when they know you are the boss.

6) When they fight, are you encouraging them by panicking (you panic, they increase intensity of fighting because they both sense your panic and then are trying to defend you as well... because they are the protector.. as they are dominant over you.

cripes... the list goes on... without seeing it, it's hard to say exactly why but it's usually one or both trying to dominate when in reality you should be; OR, not enough exercise; OR, not neutered; Or you actually have a crazy dog in one of them. As thy are pointers, they really need 3-5km walk a day; these are hunting dogs after all.......

Hi; thanks for taking the time.

To answer your questions:

a) all three dogs have been neutered;

the alpha dog is actually the one who stays outside; the other dog was initially let in the house so that he wouldn't get killed;

c) none of the dogs are walked at all. I have a very large property, and they get tons of exercise running, swimming, chasing balls, explosing the neighborhood, chasing water buffalo...they're always on the move. None of them has ever been on a leash. The one who stays inside is lacking exercise because he can't really go out; he is not really aggressive at all, until dog A comes in the house and he senses a fight coming.

d) the outside dog is definitely the initiator of all the problems. All the dogs are about the same size (around 10kg each, I'd say -- mutts).

e) meal times, the dogs are currently fed separately. Dog A and Dog C outside; Dog B inside.

f) when they fight, I am not panicking but trying to separate them by turning the hose on them, whacking them with flip-flops...anything to get them apart.

Thanks for your pointers -- I will try leashing and walking them together. Could be a challenge at first!

[Pseudolus]

The walk is actually a good place to start because then you are in control of both of them and they have to do what you say. I think you need to find a way to claim your land again, not let outside dog be the boss of it so for a while, actually don't let them out running by themselves, and you control access to them.

Also, get used to feeding them together, and you actually limit the food to the aggressor.He needs to learn quickly that he is not actually the boss, and it is not his house and garden but it is yours, and you give him permission to use it at your whim, not his. He gets food if you let him have it etc; it only actually takes a day or so to get the message as long as others in the family follow it as well.

How is the aggressor with other dogs? How is the attacked dogs with other dogs?

[NewlyMintedThai]

Thanks -- will definitely try that.

Dog A is surprisingly not particularly aggressive with other dogs from the neighborhood that might happen to come around. He really only has it in for Dog B. Even the mere sight of him out of doors seems to turn him into a Tasmanian devil.

[phl]

Pseudolus

Very good and sound advice, i agree with you.

Sounds like the 2 boys are fighting over pack order, in my experience this is due to owner (not through fault of his/her own) allowing them to do so.

ie, owner, should set the rules and pack order.

I think good start is long walks to release all the energy, i run mine twice per day, morning and evening.

Also i think OP should assert him/herself when they start to even look at each other, there will usually be some signs just before the fight. Pin both of them down at the same time and show them that this behavior is not tolerated.

As corny as it sounds, check out ceaser milan website, where you will find many great tips of similar problems.

In my personal experience, i have 2 females who at one stage decided they donot like each other.

Only took me about 2 weeks of pinning both down just as they were getting ready to get into each other.

Now 2 years later (touch wood) they are great friends and happy to share everything, but i treat all 3 equally, i pet all 3 at the same time(sadly i do not have 3 hands, so have to use my foot for one of them)

feed them at the same time and tell them all off, should i see something naughty, seems to work

[Pseudolus]

Thanks -- will definitely try that.

Dog A is surprisingly not particularly aggressive with other dogs from the neighborhood that might happen to come around. He really only has it in for Dog B. Even the mere sight of him out of doors seems to turn him into a Tasmanian devil.

Just out of interest then, when they fight, do they both go at it, or does Dog B tend to get attacked and goes submissive?

If they both go for it full out,and based on the fact that A is fine with other dogs, tends to suggest that Dog B is looking over saying "you prick, boss ofme are you, well I'll have you one day" and BOOM, off they go. A attacks B because B is not submissive to him 100%. PHL is correct above, they need to submit to you. When dogs are submitting to you, they roll on their side / back opening up with no defence. You can do this by grabbing the back of the neck / scruff, and forcing the dog to the floor twisting it so it rolls over. Hold it there until you can take your hand away and they stay. Keep doing it until after you lift your hand away, they stay. It'snot cruel, it's basically what their mothers do to them. Only need to do it to the aggressor though if you catch it in time; before it kicks off.

Also, when they have had a fight, get them back in a room together ASAP. Don't let them brood. control them into submission., they will be ok soon enough.

[NewlyMintedThai]

Dog B fights right back -- he does not submit. But he is not the instigator. He actively tries to avoid confrontation (before he goes outside to do his business, he looks both ways to make sure dog A isn't around, then tiptoes around until he gets back inside), but does fight back when attacked. And both dogs end up doing equal damage to the other before they get pulled apart. They both have a good collection of battle scars, and I have a few of my own now, too.

[bina]

i am less optimistic. i rehomed bunjee the rat terrier after repeated attacks by my bitch! and it got to the point that he was in a permanent state of stress, never a healthy thing in any animal.

sometimes there are just animals that dont get along... and the physical set up of a house, doors, gates, people, whatever just dont allow the dogs to rework out their problems. holding dogs down etc is good if u have someone to help otherwise u might just get bitten by your own dog due to mistaken identitiy.

letting them run together in neutral areas together and let them work it out for themselves can maybe help in neutral areas but back at the house, old habits and behaviors return.

like i said, we rehomed bunjee to my ex in laws house down the path, anywhere else on the kibbutz the three dogs got along , but if he dared to come in to our house, the bitch would swoop down on him and beat him up ... it got to the point where she wouldnt let him get out of his bed without her permission... and he has much sharper teeth then she does, as she has an under bite lhasa apso style. and she is not the doinant one in the house. my husband is very very dominant... my male is relaxed with the bitch in the house, some rare food related skirmishes. to this day i havent a clue as to why they just dont like him. sometimes that happens among dogs, or goats, or horses or chickens or birds and someimte, like in zoos, u just have to separate the weakest/victim, or remove the aggressor (which ever is easiest to do), both change the power set up in a group. i had a goat that sufferred a year of goat abuse, lost weight, looked horrible, was a horrible mother. i gave her to friends, and she blossomed in to a wonderful mother and milker, witha glossy coat as opposed to her original horrible moth eaten coat she had had...

frankly it is easier to suggest and help with human/dog interactions as opposed to dog/dog interactions without actually watching their body language, physical set up etc. with human dog interactions we at least can get one side of the story without trying to interpret everything.

.

someone else here once had a problem similar to yours, not sure how they resolved it in the end... perhaps switching dogs around, to who is indoors and who is outdoors, who is on leash at all times and who runs free, and periodically switch so that the power territory thing equalizes... perhaps a 'vacation' for one, and then re introducing him/her in a different way, might work out. perhaps putting the dogs together and keeping the bitch indoors for a while... it all depends on how much patience and time and money for holes to be sewn up u have...

maybe an obedience course with the two dogs working together with you in a nuetral area? people here are correct and saying u have to assert yourselves but it might not solve the problem. also, is the problem worse wehn u are around, or away, or around kids, or wife, or does it not matter.??

bina

israel

[Pseudolus]

Bina - sorry to hear you had to get rid of your dog in this way and although of course we need to see the dogs behaviours, there are enough clues here to work it out.

Basic responses of a dog, fight, flight, submit. The first two are wrong reactions because either way they are taking control and making their own decisions. You need to get them to a situation where you are clearly the boss and that is not allowing the Aggressor to get away with making the attack because if you do, he will always do so. At the moment, dog B is fighting back, so that needs correcting also but his is a response to aggression, and in the current state, he might get killed if he submits. It is a fair bet that getting Dog A to toe the line will sort out the problems.

"holding dogs down etc is good if u have someone to help otherwise u might just get bitten by your own dog due to mistaken identitiy"

You do not need to hold both down. You need to hold the aggressor down. True, you make get bitten. I have a nice mark on my arm where my 4 yr old (she was rescued aged 4) husky took a chunk out of my arm. I had brought a very submissive male into the house, but she kept going for him all the time initially. Very similar circumstances to MNT for the first few days but as soon as I realised that she was about to go (and female huskys are bloody vicious when they attack) I grabbed her as described and held her down. She yelped and whined and complained and squirmed and then managed to connect with her gnashers but I knew if I released she would win and keep thinking she was in control. So I kept holding her, a trickle of my blood dripping onto her pretty white face, and she quickly got the message that I was not scared of her biting, and it was ineffectual. When I released her the first time after a few mintues, she then tried to run away (flight) but I boxed her in, and did it again, but no biting this time. After 30 seconds, I released and she stayed there knowing resistance was futile. The male came over to see what was going on and to see if she was OK, and they have been submissive friends ever since.

I should have worn a long sleeved shirt by the way and I would not have had my skin broken. Dogs won't bite you though if they can help it, but you need to show that they can not hurt you and you are not intimidated by them. This is an extreme scenario (rescue dogs often come with a world of psyche problems) but they live a much happier life once they know their station.

One another occasion, I helped out with a red line rescue dog in Hong Kong. it was springer spaniel that had had a few years of horrific violent abuse by their drunk owners that eventually the SPCA had removed. I love springers and he had real bad problems in that he would attack humans; a real get his retaliation in first attitude. He was a lovely chap though. The centre people told me he was going to be destroyed because he was not rehome-able. They knew I had a knack with these crazy dogs, so I popped down to the foster home he was in, and watched what he was doing. In an enclosed space, with no flight available, he was fighting straight away. So I sat there, not paying him attention, until eventually came over to sniff. After about an hour I managed to get a leash on him and took him out. He must have attacked me 10+ times on my heavy jeans leg in the first 100 meters and each time, pinned him down. Eventually he got the idea and gave up knowing I was not hurting him, but that he could not hurt me. He was eventually placed with a friend of mine on the island I lived on and is loving the nice long walks. It is very rare that a dog will not toe the line and submit, and those dogs do unfortunately need to be destroyed. But this is very very rare.

If NMT walks out to the garden with Dog B, is thinking oh bugger, here we go fight time, then Dog A + B will pick up on this anxiety and almost start the fight because of it. Assuming that NMT pays for the property, it is therefore his, he should walk out thinking and feeling that he is in control, and that no one is going to fight because he is the boss.

honestly though, start with the walks and impose with them on the leash. He needs to own both inside and outside, not one or other of the dogs. Problem fixed. Feed them together as well, but control both of their ability to eat the food. dominate food and territory and he will be seen as the boss.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Pseudolus

[necronx99]

Thanks -- will definitely try that.

Dog A is surprisingly not particularly aggressive with other dogs from the neighborhood that might happen to come around. He really only has it in for Dog B. Even the mere sight of him out of doors seems to turn him into a Tasmanian devil.

Are you sure he is not in fact a Tasmanian devil. ?

[pokoal2000]

Hi

Don't worry about it, I have two German Shephards ( Male and female) and they attact anything that moves into our land. We have a old Thai dog and I have to keep him in the shed, becouse they will kill him. I have tried averything for a year, that was sugested on this side, but nothing works.Otherwise they are great and gentle dogs with children and people they know.

Alex

[LennyW]

Take hold of the instigator and bite his ear, let him know you are the boss!! Works every time!

[bina]

pseudolus is pretty much on target for a starter. but pokoal who is an experienced gsd owner is also spot on. some times things just dont work out.

having worked with dogs since age 10 i have enough teeth marks from doing stuff on my own; in my case, bunjee just moved down the road (he moved himself, actually, by spending more time with my ex in laws then at home, so we just made the move official on his chip/vet card).. however, as pokoal says, sometimes things dont smooth over, or u just cant do all that is needed.

my foofoo is a lving example of a dog with psychiatric(post trauma/neuralgia from bad dog bite injuries) and dog behavior problems, he would ahave been put down had he stayed with his former owners since he was constantly in attack bite mode. he has improved in the past four years about 300%. but not easy and im constantly on guard for potential resurrection of behavior problems or situations that could regress him.

i too , was the prime choice for dealing with nutcase animals (horses, goats, dogs not cats) when i worked as a teen in a kennel, and on kibbutz when we still had our horrible local arabian mix mares, and later in the petting zoo and more recently the local 'dog psychologist in the area for screwy dogs.

most owners dont have the actual physical experience /knowlege of reading in to their own dog's warning actions (a forward moving shoulder, a raised lip, an eyebrow raised, tail at certain positions) to work on such a difficult problem, since it involves subtle messages from all three dogs... some people just 'dont have it' like some of us do (just like some people ride on any horse as if they were born on the animal and others can ride for twenty years and still look like their first time) and some people dont want teeth in their arms or legs, understandably so.

so it is still easier if we could see the animals and the situations.

[Pseudolus]

Sorry, but Pokoal, regardless of your platitudes of how nice your German Shepherds are, if they you are certain that your other dogs needs to spend its life locked in a shed because they will kill it, your dogs have problems; and if they will kill another dogs owned by you, who should be the boss, then I hate to break it to you, but you are not the boss. I don't know what advice you followed, but I would not advocate imprisoning a dog for its own safety. Would be like locking me in jail because there are a few murders loose in Bangkok. You own the little thai dog, your other dogs you own should not feel they are able to attack him. So, keep trying, or let them do it. Fairer in the long run.

Bina, you seem to keep jumping to the position that the OPs dogs will never change and thus its all bad and all wrong before he has even tried anything. He does not have that bad a problem; and advice like you are dishing out might have someone on here taking a gun to their dogs for no reason. Most things are easily fixed; blame the human and not the dog 99.999999999999999% of the time. Truly bad to the bone dogs are so rare it is almost a non statistic.

[bina]

pseudo...

not advising shoot the dog; advising that in his case best to check with people that are physically there to see and watch before advising. that is wha ti do. i go to the person's house, watch a few times, interactions with children, other dogs, when i come to the door, when man or woman comes to door, etc. only then can a program be developed for working with the dog/s. that is the responsible way. the way to prevent dog bites to owners, inadvertantly. even if the dogs have a good bite inhibition.

and 'caging ' a dog; what many kennel owners do: some dogs in otehrs out, and then reversed. dogs have no problem adapting to a daily shedule of in/out, free play/walks/food times, shut in time.

also: dogs are not bad. owners are lacking knowlege, or unwilling, or dont care. however, dogs DO have personalities. they are no longer (for the most part) like wild canines. too much genetic interference to too many breeds. some breeds are more difficult than others, and within any breed some dogs are more difficult than others: some due to their place in the litter, some to environmental causes, mostly a combination. foofoo is lucky that he has us since his problem is mostly due to environment and not personality. lilee's almost asperger style pesonility is definately environmental. but within any breed there arehot tempered dogs, less easy going dogs, sweeter dogs, stupid dogs and intelligent dogs. same with horses. same with goats. same as people. and some dogs just need to be the only dog in its home for whatever reasons. ans sometimes that is the fairest safest and yes, easiest for owner and dog, . third dogs in a houselhold are often a base for problems. four dogs again usually spreads the hiararchy about more evenly.

i suggest to the OP that he pm's nienke; shes up north, she works with behavior modification, has much experience with multiple dog households, and can advise... she is a sponsor here so u can find her here.

bina

[rotary]

My wives all hate each other so we have similar problems.........

[pokoal2000]

The Thai dog in not locked in the shed all the time, just have to keep them separate.He is out when the other dogs are in the house. I have dogs all my life and I know how to look after them, don't worry.

Alex

[bangkaew]

Where to begin.

1) Are the males neutered? If not, why not? Most aggression is solved over night.Is the female neurtered? Again, if not why not? Get it done as well to decrease competition over her.

2) You are not the Alpha male in the house. At a guess, the one that is dominating the inside is due to it being the home. You need to correct that straight away (Cesar Milan video on pack leader behavior will do it).

3) How often do you walk them? Depending upon breed, a rough rule of thumb is under 10kg, walk 1km per day (in morning to tire them). Over 10kg; 2km + per day. Walking two fighting dogs together will often help them bond, especially if you get them on the same side,and both being submissive to you (not pulling).

4) Is it actually a real aggression problem; not just dominance? Does one particular dog always instigate it? What triggers the fighting - anything that is a common thread?

5) Meal times - what happens? Alpha males decides who eats and when. Feed them together, dominate their food space; take away their bowls when they are eating, when they try to eat or push you to eat, then take it away. Dominate them. Fighting will stop when they know you are the boss.

6) When they fight, are you encouraging them by panicking (you panic, they increase intensity of fighting because they both sense your panic and then are trying to defend you as well... because they are the protector.. as they are dominant over you.

cripes... the list goes on... without seeing it, it's hard to say exactly why but it's usually one or both trying to dominate when in reality you should be; OR, not enough exercise; OR, not neutered; Or you actually have a crazy dog in one of them. As thy are pointers, they really need 3-5km walk a day; these are hunting dogs after all.......

Hi; thanks for taking the time.

To answer your questions:

a) all three dogs have been neutered;

the alpha dog is actually the one who stays outside; the other dog was initially let in the house so that he wouldn't get killed;

c) none of the dogs are walked at all. I have a very large property, and they get tons of exercise running, swimming, chasing balls, explosing the neighborhood, chasing water buffalo...they're always on the move. None of them has ever been on a leash. The one who stays inside is lacking exercise because he can't really go out; he is not really aggressive at all, until dog A comes in the house and he senses a fight coming.

d) the outside dog is definitely the initiator of all the problems. All the dogs are about the same size (around 10kg each, I'd say -- mutts).

e) meal times, the dogs are currently fed separately. Dog A and Dog C outside; Dog B inside.

f) when they fight, I am not panicking but trying to separate them by turning the hose on them, whacking them with flip-flops...anything to get them apart.

Thanks for your pointers -- I will try leashing and walking them together. Could be a challenge at first!

dog A does not respect you. Next time he attacks B belt him until he is lying on his back. then do that every time. That is the kind thing to do. Otherwise you will have to carry on as before - cruel to dog B, or give away dog A - cruel to dog A. Flipflops and water does not work for dog A.

i will put on my tin hat.

[Pseudolus]

Where to begin.

1) Are the males neutered? If not, why not? Most aggression is solved over night.Is the female neurtered? Again, if not why not? Get it done as well to decrease competition over her.

2) You are not the Alpha male in the house. At a guess, the one that is dominating the inside is due to it being the home. You need to correct that straight away (Cesar Milan video on pack leader behavior will do it).

3) How often do you walk them? Depending upon breed, a rough rule of thumb is under 10kg, walk 1km per day (in morning to tire them). Over 10kg; 2km + per day. Walking two fighting dogs together will often help them bond, especially if you get them on the same side,and both being submissive to you (not pulling).

4) Is it actually a real aggression problem; not just dominance? Does one particular dog always instigate it? What triggers the fighting - anything that is a common thread?

5) Meal times - what happens? Alpha males decides who eats and when. Feed them together, dominate their food space; take away their bowls when they are eating, when they try to eat or push you to eat, then take it away. Dominate them. Fighting will stop when they know you are the boss.

6) When they fight, are you encouraging them by panicking (you panic, they increase intensity of fighting because they both sense your panic and then are trying to defend you as well... because they are the protector.. as they are dominant over you.

cripes... the list goes on... without seeing it, it's hard to say exactly why but it's usually one or both trying to dominate when in reality you should be; OR, not enough exercise; OR, not neutered; Or you actually have a crazy dog in one of them. As thy are pointers, they really need 3-5km walk a day; these are hunting dogs after all.......

Hi; thanks for taking the time.

To answer your questions:

a) all three dogs have been neutered;

the alpha dog is actually the one who stays outside; the other dog was initially let in the house so that he wouldn't get killed;

c) none of the dogs are walked at all. I have a very large property, and they get tons of exercise running, swimming, chasing balls, explosing the neighborhood, chasing water buffalo...they're always on the move. None of them has ever been on a leash. The one who stays inside is lacking exercise because he can't really go out; he is not really aggressive at all, until dog A comes in the house and he senses a fight coming.

d) the outside dog is definitely the initiator of all the problems. All the dogs are about the same size (around 10kg each, I'd say -- mutts).

e) meal times, the dogs are currently fed separately. Dog A and Dog C outside; Dog B inside.

f) when they fight, I am not panicking but trying to separate them by turning the hose on them, whacking them with flip-flops...anything to get them apart.

Thanks for your pointers -- I will try leashing and walking them together. Could be a challenge at first!

dog A does not respect you. Next time he attacks B belt him until he is lying on his back. then do that every time. That is the kind thing to do. Otherwise you will have to carry on as before - cruel to dog B, or give away dog A - cruel to dog A. Flipflops and water does not work for dog A.

i will put on my tin hat.

Actually, and I am sorry to suggest that your tin hat is not safe on the peg you mention, but this is taking it too far. Dominating is completely different to a full out assault on a dog; if you have spent time with packs of dogs you will see that all out aggression is very very rare; their tricks are more subtle. The holding down trick speeds it up. However, by viciously beating a dog you not only risk flicking a switch inside of them where basically you take a dominant dog through the curtain to full scale psycho dog especially if the first hits you make are not clear where they are from (you or the other dog), but also dumping him into bottom of the pile position just in time for the other dog to get in on the act with a full role reversal; and you start a cycle which will only end when you have beaten both to death.

Wrong advice. Might work for you, but beating a dog severely is not ok and anyone that does simply should not be allowed neat them.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Pseudolus

[sbk]

Not sure why OP isn't the pack leader, mistake one.

-- note you don't become pack leader by beating the crap out of your dog tho.

Mistake two is not acknowledging the dominance of the outside dog to the inside dog. We had similar problems between two of our females and it was because we were favoring the newer one (she was cute!) over the dominant older female. When we made sure to greet the dominant one first, feed her first, and give her more affection the issues died down as the second female realized she was the lower dog on the totem pole.

Mistake three was separating their territories, they now defend their own little space. Probably made outside dog super jealous to see lower dog on the totem pole get favored status inside the house hence the attacks.

[bangkaew]

I am not saying beat the dog up. I am saying let him know that you mean business. If the OP, right as dog A attacks, hits him ONCE with a stick hard and then stands over him, that will work. Doing an alpha roll does not work... especially if you are anxious. The dog will sense your fear and may well bite.

People don't like CM because he physically touches but what they forget is that he only has to do it ONCE in the majority of cases.

[Pseudolus]

Doing an alpha roll does not work... especially if you are anxious.

Doing the Alpha role does work and as you rightly say, you can not be anxious when you do it. But why be anxious? They are your dogs.It is your house. Why feel anxious about telling someone or something that point?

[F1fanatic]

Doing an alpha roll does not work... especially if you are anxious.

Doing the Alpha role does work and as you rightly say, you can not be anxious when you do it. But why be anxious? They are your dogs.It is your house. Why feel anxious about telling someone or something that point?

To be fair, unless you are naturally authoritative it takes time and perseverance to learn how to be authoritative with your dogs to gain their respect.

The situation is even worse when they are engaged in a full blown fight! Again, it takes time and perseverance to learn to remain calm and conquer the fear of being bitten.

It can be done though as I can vouch from personal experience. It took me a long time to remain calm when one of my dogs got involved in a fight - but I got there eventually.

Hitting them with a stick will instill fear, but not respect.

[bangkaew]

Doing an alpha roll does not work... especially if you are anxious.

Doing the Alpha role does work and as you rightly say, you can not be anxious when you do it. But why be anxious? They are your dogs.It is your house. Why feel anxious about telling someone or something that point?

To be fair, unless you are naturally authoritative it takes time and perseverance to learn how to be authoritative with your dogs to gain their respect.

The situation is even worse when they are engaged in a full blown fight! Again, it takes time and perseverance to learn to remain calm and conquer the fear of being bitten.

It can be done though as I can vouch from personal experience. It took me a long time to remain calm when one of my dogs got involved in a fight - but I got there eventually.

Hitting them with a stick will instill fear, but not respect.

frequent hits yes. I maintain that you can hit a dog once in their lives and they will not fear you. Our BK at 1 year continued to try and bite a new maid. He had never been hit and that is why he got such a shock when he got hit - at the moment of attack. He never tried to again and has never been hit again.

[Pomthai]

Lots of great advise here. Being the pack leader is key as the owner of the dogs. However if the methods above are still not working - what about muzzling them both? Let them at it and its safe for the owner to intervene and exersize dominance without the risk of being bitten. Safer for both dogs and human. I hate muzzle's but maybe a muzzle and some time would sort them out. They certainly wouldn't be able to do much harm to each other trying to paw each other to death. Good luck with them though - I wish you that. Its saddening to see them fight.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Pomthai

[Pseudolus]

frequent hits yes. I maintain that you can hit a dog once in their lives and they will not fear you. Our BK at 1 year continued to try and bite a new maid. He had never been hit and that is why he got such a shock when he got hit - at the moment of attack. He never tried to again and has never been hit again.

Still disagree for two reasons. Often a dog will think that it is not OK to bite them when you are around... so won't.

Second reason, let me illustrate this with my lab. The most placid loveable lump of loveliness you could ever meet but one day she for no reason growled and lunged at a new maid we had. For what I could see was no reason. Chastised her of course, but I had no idea why. She did it a second time, but I saw the reason this time; as the lab had wondered over to her to say hello, the maid had jabbed her in the face with one of those reed yard sweeps, and of course, Lab hackled up and lunged for her quite rightly thinking "how bloody dare you attack me in my dads house". The biggest issue with these circumstances is that if physically beaten, your dog will think that the maid is allowed to abuse them and they are not allowed to protect themselves; and let's face it, domestic helpers will often say they are dog friendly to get a nice cushy job with a farang whilst not caring at all and thinking it is OK to kick, poke, and hurt your dog; and your dog thinks they have to accept it because your maid will not do it with you there...will she? Maid gone, problem solved.

[bangkaew]

frequent hits yes. I maintain that you can hit a dog once in their lives and they will not fear you. Our BK at 1 year continued to try and bite a new maid. He had never been hit and that is why he got such a shock when he got hit - at the moment of attack. He never tried to again and has never been hit again.

Still disagree for two reasons. Often a dog will think that it is not OK to bite them when you are around... so won't.

Second reason, let me illustrate this with my lab. The most placid loveable lump of loveliness you could ever meet but one day she for no reason growled and lunged at a new maid we had. For what I could see was no reason. Chastised her of course, but I had no idea why. She did it a second time, but I saw the reason this time; as the lab had wondered over to her to say hello, the maid had jabbed her in the face with one of those reed yard sweeps, and of course, Lab hackled up and lunged for her quite rightly thinking "how bloody dare you attack me in my dads house". The biggest issue with these circumstances is that if physically beaten, your dog will think that the maid is allowed to abuse them and they are not allowed to protect themselves; and let's face it, domestic helpers will often say they are dog friendly to get a nice cushy job with a farang whilst not caring at all and thinking it is OK to kick, poke, and hurt your dog; and your dog thinks they have to accept it because your maid will not do it with you there...will she? Maid gone, problem solved.

not sure about the 2nd point but for the first; you intimidate* dog A in to accepting dog B in your presence and then you walk them together, spend a whole day with them both and with any luck they will forget their past.

* unfortunately in the dog world respect and fear, not of the leader, but of a leader's raised voice when directed at them... is often the same thing. Trust and respect are not the same. A dog may trust you and for many dogs that trust brings obedience and respect, but for more difficult dogs trust does not bring obedience... imo.

[sbk]

We had a cute young little female dog move in and despite her small stature she didn't understand why she couldn't be top dog. She challenged the top female once. Top female got on top of her, pinned her to the ground with her body and snarled in her face until the little dog finally submitted. There wasn't a mark on her but she learned her place.

[Pseudolus]

not sure about the 2nd point but for the first; you intimidate* dog A in to accepting dog B in your presence and then you walk them together, spend a whole day with them both and with any luck they will forget their past.

* unfortunately in the dog world respect and fear, not of the leader, but of a leader's raised voice when directed at them... is often the same thing. Trust and respect are not the same. A dog may trust you and for many dogs that trust brings obedience and respect, but for more difficult dogs trust does not bring obedience... imo.

Point A - They will not misbehaviour when you are there, but they will when you are not. You are training them only not to be caught.

Some people just like to beat their dogs. That is the simple solution in their minds, and you seem reticent to accept that anything other that beating dogs will have an impact from the basis that you have a couple of dogs and obviously think that beating them is the only / best way to correct their behaviour. I worked with the RSPCA as a specialist in rehoming nut job dogs. I've had training in it, and quite a few years of seeing what I say actually working. Never had a dog fail, and never had one return due to the reasons they came to me in the first place.

Walking dogs together. A big yard is not sufficient. They need to go out and about further to see new sites and new places. Tethered to you, with you leading them, you are at the front of the pack, they start to co-operate together and fall into line. Together. This more than anything else works.

If you prefer to advocate beating animals then do it in the pub; on a public forum, people reading this might actually take justification for their animal cruelty from your words; and start or continue to beat animals just because the owner can not consistently get themselves and their family (of humans) to act and be the leaders of the house. A point to consider also is that when a human beats a dog the dog picks upon the emotions of that person as well; guilt (well guessing not from you) in the action will never be a deterrent; Anger- dogs flash anger quickly and forget it and is unlikely to deter. Most of the feelings an owner will have will actually not be a deterrent so it is futile. People beat dogs because it makes the person feel better. That is all. So stop telling people to beat dogs.