U.S. Finds Remains Of Soldier Missing From Vietnam War Plane Crash

[NowImEasy]

Is this a Western thing, trying to account for war dead decades later? I'm not looking for a "West versus East" debate, just wondering how many other countries go to great lengths to locate and identify their war dead over 40 years later.

The caring countries,like to identify their dead.These soldiers faught for their Country and were Heroes,so why shouldn't the family and friends know what happened to them,its the decent thing to do!

Yeah Majic , in a nutshell that just about says it all

Not quite all. It should be known that an American serviceman or woman will never knowingly be left on a battlefield. This is a solemn pledge between brothers. Many have sacrificed their own life to spare their buddy. And there are countless casualties in rescue attempts in very dangerous situations. Semper Fidelis. I'm not familiar with the warrior ethos in other countries, but love for friends transends love of cause or country.

[MoonShadow]

"If they all came back, but one, he was still some mothers son..."

Remember, for our tomorrow they gave their today....

[jayceenik]

I'm wondering if the US govt would show that much alacrity in recovering the remains of a non-citizen (Green Card) who served in the US Army and went MIA in Vietnam ?

My guess : NO.

[billd766]

During the First war an infantryman would be in full uniform with a backpack weighing up to 25kg approx 50 lbs.

Many were lost in the trenches due to shellfire, mines and also to slipping off the duckboards when the trenches were flooded. They just disappeared and drowned in the liquid mud and most of those bodies were never recovered.

Bear in mind you are wearing a full kit and a backpack, carrying a rifle and being chivvied along trenches in the dark while being shot at and shelled, thin, cold, wet, miserable, hungry and tired and the guy in front or behind you just slips and you and your mates can't help him.

What an awful way to die and with no known grave.

[chuckd]

I'm wondering if the US govt would show that much alacrity in recovering the remains of a non-citizen (Green Card) who served in the US Army and went MIA in Vietnam ?

My guess : NO.

If he was a member of the US military and a comrade in arms, the effort would be the same.

[HerbalEd]

The headlines are misleading it says, The U.S finds remains but the story says it was a local Vietnamese who actually found them. Who was it the local guy or the country called U.S?

Does it really matter? That the body was finally "found" is the point.

[HerbalEd]

I'm wondering if the US govt would show that much alacrity in recovering the remains of a non-citizen (Green Card) who served in the US Army and went MIA in Vietnam ?

My guess : NO.

Guess again.

[transam]

I'm wondering if the US govt would show that much alacrity in recovering the remains of a non-citizen (Green Card) who served in the US Army and went MIA in Vietnam ?

My guess : NO.

Guess again.

Strange post from JC. What is your point ? Enlighten us on your thoughts, please.

[jayceenik]

I'm wondering if the US govt would show that much alacrity in recovering the remains of a non-citizen (Green Card) who served in the US Army and went MIA in Vietnam ?

My guess : NO.

Guess again.

Strange post from JC. What is your point ? Enlighten us on your thoughts, please.

I was a US Army CW2, did an extended tour of duty in VN. Bronze Star, Air Medal, VN Service Medal.

But I am a Belgian citizen and, for example, not considered as a US War Veteran by the US Embassy/BKK which has always refused to invite me on their yearly get-together party on Veterans Day.

[Scott]

This topic is not about a particular poster. It is about the remains of a soldier. I very much doubt that if the remains of a serviceman were found and it was determined that they were not a US citizen that they would put them back.

Please stick to the topic.

[Xangsamhua]

I was a US Army CW2, did an extended tour of duty in VN. Bronze Star, Air Medal, VN Service Medal.

But I am a Belgian citizen and, for example, not considered as a US War Veteran by the US Embassy/BKK which has always refused to invite me on their yearly get-together party on Veterans Day.

Interesting. No Australian soldiers in the First or Second World Wars were Australian citizens. They were British subjects. There was no such thing as Australian citizenship until 1969.

Throughout the 1960s, Australian citizens were still required to declare their nationality as British. The term ‘Australian nationality’ had no official recognition or meaning until the Act was amended in 1969 and renamed the Citizenship Act. This followed a growing sense of Australian nationalism and the declining importance for Australians of the British Empire. In 1973 the Act was renamed the Australian Citizenship Act. It was not until 1984 that Australian citizens ceased to be British subjects.

National Archives of Australia http://www.naa.gov.a...eets/fs187.aspx

It seems wrong that, as a US Army veteran, you'd be left off the list. Is it just a bureaucratic glitch?

In Commonwealth armed forces, at least in my experience, it was quite common for citizens of, say, the UK or New Zealand to serve in Australian units and vice versa.

[transam]

I'm wondering if the US govt would show that much alacrity in recovering the remains of a non-citizen (Green Card) who served in the US Army and went MIA in Vietnam ?

My guess : NO.

Guess again.

Strange post from JC. What is your point ? Enlighten us on your thoughts, please.

I was a US Army CW2, did an extended tour of duty in VN. Bronze Star, Air Medal, VN Service Medal.

But I am a Belgian citizen and, for example, not considered as a US War Veteran by the US Embassy/BKK which has always refused to invite me on their yearly get-together party on Veterans Day.

That is very sad, BUT, little 'ol me salute you. You have MY respect.

[TeddyFlyfisherDavis]

The headlines are misleading it says, The U.S finds remains but the story says it was a local Vietnamese who actually found them. Who was it the local guy or the country called U.S?

To the guy from the country called OZ the remains from a soldier from the country called US have been identified by DNA from his sister who also lives in a country called US. What the heck did a Yank ever do to you to leave you so bitter and obsessed with making fun of anything American even war dead? Jesus George get off it.

I was in no way making fun nor am I bitter. I was saying that the headlines say the U.S finds remain and then when I read the story it says that it was a vietnamese, so either the story is wrong or the headline is wrong and it is confusing as to who located what. Maybe the headlines could have simply stated "Remains of missing U.S service men located"

I am ex serviceman and respect soldiers of all armies be friend or foe and would never disrespect them nor thier families. If just trying to clarify who actually did what is disrespectful then I am truely sorry to you.

Don't you think shooting and killing someone is the ultimate show of disrespect...? I do...

[chuckd]

I'm wondering if the US govt would show that much alacrity in recovering the remains of a non-citizen (Green Card) who served in the US Army and went MIA in Vietnam ?

My guess : NO.

Guess again.

Strange post from JC. What is your point ? Enlighten us on your thoughts, please.

I was a US Army CW2, did an extended tour of duty in VN. Bronze Star, Air Medal, VN Service Medal.

But I am a Belgian citizen and, for example, not considered as a US War Veteran by the US Embassy/BKK which has always refused to invite me on their yearly get-together party on Veterans Day.

Find your local VFW branch and talk to the Commander. My bet is they would be able to help you.

[Credo]

It sounds like an oversight. When I was young, I lived in a small community with a manufacturing plant which was affiliated with a company. A small technical group came from various countries in Europe. My father was a member of the VFW and one of the guys at the plant was from either Germany or a German allied country. He had served in the Military against the Allied forces.

He was well-liked in the community and it didn't take long for him to be invited to the VFW bashes--OK they were drunken parties--and he could put away more beer than most. It was a small community and most had served in the Pacific theatre. I doubt he was allowed to officially join, but he did attend.

I met him. A charming, well-liked and respected person in the community.

Also being not far from Canada, there were servicemen who traveled down for those occasions as well.

[WilliamCave]

I read the article and am heart felt that even after so many years some countries never stop looking .

And I think if we every stop looking will be a sad day for all . We need to remember keep it alive.

To quote John Mcray Lest we forget we are domed to repeat it

Good on the people and countries

[WilliamCave]

"If they all came back, but one, he was still some mothers son..."

Remember, for our tomorrow they gave their today....

So true

they gave every thing so I can live the way I do today with my family and friends I will never stop feeling for these people.

[softgeorge]

It sounds like an oversight. When I was young, I lived in a small community with a manufacturing plant which was affiliated with a company. A small technical group came from various countries in Europe. My father was a member of the VFW and one of the guys at the plant was from either Germany or a German allied country. He had served in the Military against the Allied forces.

He was well-liked in the community and it didn't take long for him to be invited to the VFW bashes--OK they were drunken parties--and he could put away more beer than most. It was a small community and most had served in the Pacific theatre. I doubt he was allowed to officially join, but he did attend.

I met him. A charming, well-liked and respected person in the community.

Also being not far from Canada, there were servicemen who traveled down for those occasions as well.

A soldier is a soldier no matter what side he is on. He is a son/daughter, brother or father and he feels the pain and fears just like his enemy. He may not like you on the battlefield but he respects who you are and what you fight for. He is just like you and wants to go home. No soldier wants to die but they will freely give up thier lives for thier mates and country without questioning the rights or wrongs. A soldier does not start wars they fight and die in them. When the war is over they all go back to thier lives as butchers, accountants and your nieghbour and those that paid the ultimate deserve to go home or be with thier mates no matter how long it takes. No soldier is ever forgotten and always respected those that lay with thier mates in the many war graves around the world are taken in by those who were once the enemy and provided with all due respect. When the conflicts are over have a beer with your once enemy and remember he is no different to you and he didn't do anything more or less than you. Show him/her respect for what they were, a soldier.

Edited May 7, 2012 by softgeorge

[GentlemanJim]

I was a US Army CW2, did an extended tour of duty in VN. Bronze Star, Air Medal, VN Service Medal.

But I am a Belgian citizen and, for example, not considered as a US War Veteran by the US Embassy/BKK which has always refused to invite me on their yearly get-together party on Veterans Day.

The OP is a great story of the debt that we owe to servicemen and the respect that should duly be shown. I have to say though from a personal point of view that whilst we must respect the dead, we must also (and importantly) respect those that have given service and still live. Any US servicemen on this board, retired or otherwise should help sort out this injustice that is suffered by jayceenik. Someone knows someone that could fix this. If a person is considered good enough to die along side you in armed conflict in the service of your nation then he is good enough to attend formal functions that commemorate the event, and be given the same aftercare as everyone else.

[Xangsamhua]

It sounds like an oversight. When I was young, I lived in a small community with a manufacturing plant which was affiliated with a company. A small technical group came from various countries in Europe. My father was a member of the VFW and one of the guys at the plant was from either Germany or a German allied country. He had served in the Military against the Allied forces.

He was well-liked in the community and it didn't take long for him to be invited to the VFW bashes--OK they were drunken parties--and he could put away more beer than most. It was a small community and most had served in the Pacific theatre. I doubt he was allowed to officially join, but he did attend.

I met him. A charming, well-liked and respected person in the community.

Also being not far from Canada, there were servicemen who traveled down for those occasions as well.

A soldier is a soldier no matter what side he is on. He is a son/daughter, brother or father and he feels the pain and fears just like his enemy. He may not like you on the battlefield but he respects who you are and what you fight for. He is just like you and wants to go home. No soldier wants to die but they will freely give up thier lives for thier mates and country without questioning the rights or wrongs. A soldier does not start wars they fight and die in them. When the war is over they all go back to thier lives as butchers, accountants and your nieghbour and those that paid the ultimate deserve to go home or be with thier mates no matter how long it takes. No soldier is ever forgotten and always respected those that lay with thier mates in the many war graves around the world are taken in by those who were once the enemy and provided with all due respect. When the conflicts are over have a beer with your once enemy and remember he is no different to you and he didn't do anything more or less than you. Show him/her respect for what they were, a soldier.

I was at an RAAF(AR) dining-in on the evening the Gulf War (Desert Storm) had just started and a Squadron Leader ADG proposed a toast to the members of the profession of arms on both sides of the conflict. I don't know if this is normal, but the proposal was accepted with good grace and servicemen on both sides were recognized.

[chooka]

I was a US Army CW2, did an extended tour of duty in VN. Bronze Star, Air Medal, VN Service Medal.

But I am a Belgian citizen and, for example, not considered as a US War Veteran by the US Embassy/BKK which has always refused to invite me on their yearly get-together party on Veterans Day.

The OP is a great story of the debt that we owe to servicemen and the respect that should duly be shown. I have to say though from a personal point of view that whilst we must respect the dead, we must also (and importantly) respect those that have given service and still live. Any US servicemen on this board, retired or otherwise should help sort out this injustice that is suffered by jayceenik. Someone knows someone that could fix this. If a person is considered good enough to die along side you in armed conflict in the service of your nation then he is good enough to attend formal functions that commemorate the event, and be given the same aftercare as everyone else.

I am not American but I agree with you as these injustices happen in many countries. The Gurkas who have served for the British Crown since around 1850 have had to fight tooth and nail to get duly recognised and rewarded with citizenship. I believe it wasn't until the late 1990's that they were awarded equal rights/pensions as thier British counterparts. A lot of governments treat thier soldiers very poorly. The Australian Government is a prime example when it comes to veterans and war widow pensions. These are below those that live off welfare and are not indexed with the CPI, the recipients are actually sliding backwards. Clearly shows the government respects the welfare bludgers over those that fought, were injured or died for the country.

[chooka]

It sounds like an oversight. When I was young, I lived in a small community with a manufacturing plant which was affiliated with a company. A small technical group came from various countries in Europe. My father was a member of the VFW and one of the guys at the plant was from either Germany or a German allied country. He had served in the Military against the Allied forces.

He was well-liked in the community and it didn't take long for him to be invited to the VFW bashes--OK they were drunken parties--and he could put away more beer than most. It was a small community and most had served in the Pacific theatre. I doubt he was allowed to officially join, but he did attend.

I met him. A charming, well-liked and respected person in the community.

Also being not far from Canada, there were servicemen who traveled down for those occasions as well.

A soldier is a soldier no matter what side he is on. He is a son/daughter, brother or father and he feels the pain and fears just like his enemy. He may not like you on the battlefield but he respects who you are and what you fight for. He is just like you and wants to go home. No soldier wants to die but they will freely give up thier lives for thier mates and country without questioning the rights or wrongs. A soldier does not start wars they fight and die in them. When the war is over they all go back to thier lives as butchers, accountants and your nieghbour and those that paid the ultimate deserve to go home or be with thier mates no matter how long it takes. No soldier is ever forgotten and always respected those that lay with thier mates in the many war graves around the world are taken in by those who were once the enemy and provided with all due respect. When the conflicts are over have a beer with your once enemy and remember he is no different to you and he didn't do anything more or less than you. Show him/her respect for what they were, a soldier.

I was at an RAAF(AR) dining-in on the evening the Gulf War (Desert Storm) had just started and a Squadron Leader ADG proposed a toast to the members of the profession of arms on both sides of the conflict. I don't know if this is normal, but the proposal was accepted with good grace and servicemen on both sides were recognized.

That is a sign of respect for the soldier/the man and not the army or the country he fights for. Those that have never given thier time to thier country and served in the military may find this a little harder to understand but a serviceman/woman will understand.

[billd766]

Tommy Atkins by Rudyard Kipling

http://faxmentis.org/html/kipling.html

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,

The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."

The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,

I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";

But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,

The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,

O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,

They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;

They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,

But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";

But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,

The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,

O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep

Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;

An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit

Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"

But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,

The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,

O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,

But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;

An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,

Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",

But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,

There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,

O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:

We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.

Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face

The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"

But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;

An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;

An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

Edited May 7, 2012 by billd766

[yogi100]

Tommy Atkins by Rudyard Kipling

http://faxmentis.org/html/kipling.html

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,

The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."

The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,

I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";

But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,

The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,

O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,

They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;

They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,

But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";

But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,

The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,

O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep

Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;

An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit

Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"

But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,

The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,

O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,

But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;

An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,

Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",

But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,

There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,

O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:

We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.

Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face

The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"

But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;

An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;

An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

Not much has changed since Kipling's day.

Very few allied soldiers got as raw a deal as British squaddies in both World Wars in terms of pay, discipline and help and care in later civilian life apart from the French poilus of the Great War. It's still much the same today.

On its 60th anniversary the Australian government helped their old soldiers return to El Alamein for a reunion and to pay their respects to their old pals who they left behind. They issued passports and helped pay for their flights and hotel expenses. The UK government under Tony Blair refused to lift a finger to help our old chaps although he had no compunction a year later about sending their grandsons and great grandsons out on the fool's errand in Iraq and Afghanistan.

When I later watched that rogue and his long faced flunkies behaving as if they actually cared laying flowers at the Cenotaph on subsequent Remembrance Days it quite turned my stomach.

[billd766]

Tommy Atkins by Rudyard Kipling

http://faxmentis.org/html/kipling.html

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,

The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."

The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,

I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";

But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,

The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,

O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,

They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;

They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,

But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";

But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,

The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,

O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep

Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;

An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit

Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"

But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,

The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,

O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,

But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;

An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,

Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",

But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,

There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,

O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:

We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.

Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face

The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"

But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;

An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;

An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

Not much has changed since Kipling's day.

Very few allied soldiers got as raw a deal as British squaddies in both World Wars in terms of pay, discipline and help and care in later civilian life apart from the French poilus of the Great War. It's still much the same today.

On its 60th anniversary the Australian government helped their old soldiers return to El Alamein for a reunion and to pay their respects to their old pals who they left behind. They issued passports and helped pay for their flights and hotel expenses. The UK government under Tony Blair refused to lift a finger to help our old chaps although he had no compunction a year later about sending their grandsons and great grandsons out on the fool's errand in Iraq and Afghanistan.

When I later watched that rogue and his long faced flunkies behaving as if they actually cared laying flowers at the Cenotaph on subsequent Remembrance Days it quite turned my stomach.

And now the Con/Lib/Dems are actually making servicemen and women redundant in the UK.

[GentlemanJim]

Not much has changed since Kipling's day.

Very few allied soldiers got as raw a deal as British squaddies in both World Wars in terms of pay, discipline and help and care in later civilian life apart from the French poilus of the Great War. It's still much the same today.

On its 60th anniversary the Australian government helped their old soldiers return to El Alamein for a reunion and to pay their respects to their old pals who they left behind. They issued passports and helped pay for their flights and hotel expenses. The UK government under Tony Blair refused to lift a finger to help our old chaps although he had no compunction a year later about sending their grandsons and great grandsons out on the fool's errand in Iraq and Afghanistan.

When I later watched that rogue and his long faced flunkies behaving as if they actually cared laying flowers at the Cenotaph on subsequent Remembrance Days it quite turned my stomach.

And now the Con/Lib/Dems are actually making servicemen and women redundant in the UK.

And that is why the last verse of Kiplings poem is so appropriate

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:

We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.

Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face

The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"

But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;

An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;

An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

Perhaps someone should send the whole poem to 'call me Dave'.

Did you know a quite appalling fact that In Central London alone on any given night there are at least (minimum) a 1000 ex servicemen living on the street and crisis organizations put the figure much higher.. It is thought the numbers of homeless servicemen could make up 10-25% of the total homeless population.

Special Thanks are sent to Tony Bliar and Call Me Dave, I hope you both remember that one as you scoff your next Christmas Turkey!

Edited May 7, 2012 by GentlemanJim

[kiwijack]

Re Chooka's comments on OZ War Veterans and War Widow pensions ... I don't know much about this except my mother, who recently died aged 92 was in receipt of a War Widows pension from OZ Dept of Veteran Affairs and it was a generous sum, non means tested and CPI indexed and she also got free medical for EVERYTHING which in her case amounted to hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs at private facilities PLUS a host of other free benefits as her condition deteriorated including free wheelchair, house and bathroom modifications, regular nurse attendance at home etc etc etc. As her carer in her final year I can attest to a SUPERB and UNQUESTIONED level of care provided by Vet Affairs. They could not be faulted and they even contributed to her funeral expenses. So I am not sure what the comment is based on but it certainly is not true in her case. Also her brother 86 receives a similar high level of care though he is in better shape from Dept of VET Affairs. Just wanted to correct for the record.

[yogi100]

Tommy Atkins by Rudyard Kipling

*(Poem edited out)*

Not much has changed since Kipling's day.

Very few allied soldiers got as raw a deal as British squaddies in both World Wars in terms of pay, discipline and help and care in later civilian life apart from the French poilus of the Great War. It's still much the same today.

On its 60th anniversary the Australian government helped their old soldiers return to El Alamein for a reunion and to pay their respects to their old pals who they left behind. They issued passports and helped pay for their flights and hotel expenses. The UK government under Tony Blair refused to lift a finger to help our old chaps although he had no compunction a year later about sending their grandsons and great grandsons out on the fool's errand in Iraq and Afghanistan.

When I later watched that rogue and his long faced flunkies behaving as if they actually cared laying flowers at the Cenotaph on subsequent Remembrance Days it quite turned my stomach.

And now the Con/Lib/Dems are actually making servicemen and women redundant in the UK.

I live in London and have had a few old pals who served in WW2 who have looked around at what has become of the city and said what was it for, is this the country that our mates died for. Alas, if only those young men who now risk getting killed and maimed in Afghanistan could see into the future.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Scott
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[kerryk]

I fought for Thailand during their war against the commies. I feel proud when I look at what we accomplished. They didn't give me any medals. But that's OK.

[MrMuddle]

Although this is slightly off topic, I thought members might be interested in this :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18038650

An article describing how a British aircraft, which went missing in 1942 has now been found. The local British Embassy are hoping to visit the site, and hopefully find out what happened to the missing pilot, Flt Sgt Dennis Copping. They are also trying to find out if Flt Sgt Copping has any living relatives, in case they do find his remains.

It is good to know, that those who fought and died on our behalf, are treated with the respect that they, and the families they left behind, deserve.