Here'S My Plan... Advice?

[DerekAbroad]

Maybe not a plan, but more like a general framework developing...

I'm expecting to receive my MA TESOL next Saturday (12 May). I would like to land a job in CNX for the fall semester. Based on some local advice, I was planning on coming in October to look for a job. Now I'm thinking about coming sooner, as early as July, to get a better idea of what's out there, make connections, get some experience with some small-time stuff, get used to the new environment, and avoid being in a rush before school starts in November.

What kind of job am I looking for? A post at a university would be ideal, or maybe an international school. I'm not opposed to taking a position at a language school or government school and working on moving on to bigger, better things.

Any experience or wisdom to share with me? I look forward to your opinions and advice!

-Derek

[phuturatica]

Coming sooner will be better for you as you can settle down, find your feet and work out the connections and the opportunities that are available for you. I spent 2 months in Bangkok before I even started looking for a job so I could just weigh up whether I was making the right decision or not.

Working in an international school usually requires previous teaching experience as the salary is quite high and the teaching is taken quite seriously. (Please note, I said usually - but anything is possible in Thailand it seems) the same would probably be said for those teaching in university, however don't quote me on that as I am not too sure.

There are some decent government schools and private language schools which can offer you a salary of 35,000 baht and upwards per month and from there on you can gain experience and learn more about the world of teaching English in Thailand. Then like you said, after some experience you may be given the opportunity to move on to bigger and better things.

I never had any teaching experience when I first moved to Thailand however I am now working for a private language school on 50,000 baht per month. It was lower at first (started at 40,000 baht) but then my wage went up after a few months. This is working 70 hours per month so all in all it's not too crazy and I actually enjoy it. As for moving onto bigger and better things? Well it depends what you enjoy? I have colleagues who I work with that said working in a government public school was the best experience even if it was on less pay!

Good luck anyways and I hope you succeed in your goals.

Edited May 1, 2012 by phuturatica

[LucidLucifer]

Phuturatica gives a good answer above.

I'd add onto that, have you looked on ajarn.com?

The site and forum there is much more set up for what you need answers to. There is also a good job vacancies section.

Congratulations on your MA and good luck in your search......and welcome to the LoS.

[culicine]

Good international schools would be difficult without teacher certification / experience in a western school.

With a MA I'd be looking towards, initially, language schools and getting some experience teaching young adults. Then trying to get a university position. I know such a teacher who actually does both of these jobs at the same time + privates and gets a good salary. Government universities don't usually pay a lot (say, 30K a month), but teaching loads are often low. I'd give government schools a miss- very tough teaching environment. If you think you might prefer teaching younger students, look at private Thai schools with english or bilingual programs. I'm in an EP but don't teach english.

[LucidLucifer]

Good international schools would be difficult without teacher certification / experience in a western school.

While i'd never say never, culicine is absolutely right about the 'good' international school.

Most of them though (if not all) do run English immersion programmes for incoming students whose English skills aren't quite good enough. You could try, but don't pin your hopes on them. I sincerely doubt you'd get anywhere even close to the salary of the certified and experienced teachers.

Also, there are 'international' schools and there are 'international' schools. Don't rule out applying to a place because it has international in its name. Do some research, and you'll soon find out which are the proper schools.

[DerekAbroad]

Sorry I didn't include experience (anybody want my CV?)... I am (sorta) certified in the US (Texas). I've worked in a junior high for four years tutoring, subbing, whatever the principle wants. This spring I was an adjunct professor at a small college. I also have experience starting back in early 2006 with several volunteer positions teaching to varieties of needs. I even have a wee bit of international experience teaching young children and teenagers in China.

Thanks for all your input. I have looked at ajarn, but very little is listed in CNX.

[LucidLucifer]

By CNX I take it you are talking Chiang Mai? (I had to look up the airline code on that one)

If there isn't much on ajarn.com then that tells you something ie. there probably isn't that much in Chiang Mai. I can reassure you that that is the place to be looking online regarding job listings (unless you are looking for where they require home country certification).

If it is Chiang Mai you are dead set on, you also need to be prepared to except lower wages. As in Phuket and other picturesque touristy places, they know that people want to live there, and therefore they don't need to pay the money to attract suitable candidates.

The experience you have will certainly put you in a much better standing regarding finding work, but I am curious about your (sorta) certification. Are you certified or not? I'm from the UK and there is no grey area with that, you either have QTS (Qualified Teacher Status) or you don't.

Edited May 2, 2012 by LucidLucifer

[culicine]

By CNX I take it you are talking Chiang Mai? (I had to look up the airline code on that one)

If there isn't much on ajarn.com then that tells you something ie. there probably isn't that much in Chiang Mai. I can reassure you that that is the place to be looking online regarding job listings (unless you are looking for where they require home country certification).

If it is Chiang Mai you are dead set on, you also need to be prepared to except lower wages. As in Phuket and other picturesque touristy places, they know that people want to live there, and therefore they don't need to pay the money to attract suitable candidates.

The experience you have will certainly put you in a much better standing regarding finding work, but I am curious about your (sorta) certification. Are you certified or not? I'm from the UK and there is no grey area with that, you either have QTS (Qualified Teacher Status) or you don't.

There are some lower mid-range schools in CM (CNX is the internatioanl airport code for Chiang Mai:). So it could be possible to earn 30-50K in a small international, but not totally sure. There's a school called "lanna International school", and Prem, but that would eb tough to get into i imagine. Most of the teachers there are very experienced, based on the school's website. The problem with CM is that many go to retire there and pick up work and ask for peanuts. Probably the oversupply of teachers is keeping salaries low - 25-30K would be the norm, but is similar to other regions outside of BKK.

[Wavefloater]

You want a job at the Chiang Mai Airport (CNX)?!?! Perhaps you should broaden your range and look for jobs in the city itself.

But seriously, I don't know what the situation is in Chiang Mai these days. However,10 years ago, or so, it was definitely an employer's advantage there, as every farang in Thailand seemed to want to work in CM. All legitimate employers had stacks of resumes from foreigners, so they could be selective and still pay peanuts. Places like Chiang Mai and Payap Universities were giving most foreigners few hours and crappy pay (250-300 baht/hour). This is the impression I was given by friends who came looking for work or people I knew who had gone through the job search routine in CM. Perhaps it's better these days, but you might want to prepare yourself for looking beyond Chiang Mai (and especially just the airport).

Edited May 2, 2012 by Wavefloater

[LucidLucifer]

You want a job at the Chiang Mai Airport (CNX)?!?! Perhaps you should broaden your range and look for jobs in the city itself.

[phuturatica]

May I ask why you have your heart set on Chiang Mai? I love Chiang Mai and it is one of my favourite cities, however it doesn't give you much of an opportunity in the world of employment and gaining teaching experience. That's why I started off in Bangkok. More opportunities and more pay. I'm obviously not trying to put you OFF Chiang Mai as I do love the city, however you do need to weigh up if it the best place to your teaching English abroad career.

[tonititan]

The experience you have will certainly put you in a much better standing regarding finding work, but I am curious about your (sorta) certification. Are you certified or not? I'm from the UK and there is no grey area with that, you either have QTS (Qualified Teacher Status) or you don't.

Exactly. Just based on the experience you listed, you're not certified. Maybe you're confusing "certified" with "qualified." You could try to make the argument that you are qualified since you have some experience working with students. But that certainly doesn't make you "certified."

[DerekAbroad]

Yeah, I'm definitely interested in working outside the airport, thanks for the advice.

I've been to Chiang Mai a few times and really enjoyed it. Also, most of my friends that live in Thailand live there. I like the slower pace of life as opposed to Bangkok. I've considered Phuket and Bangkok, and I'm not throwing them out.

As far as certification, I have completed a certification course and passed all necessary tests. It's questionable to me because before I can have a full license, I have to teach for a year under a provisional license. The teaching job market here hasn't been the best since the summer I finished the course, so I haven't landed a yearlong position for my provisional license (not the reason I'm coming to Thailand). Teachers who have completed the same program say I'm considered certified, and I have held part-time positions that required a certified teacher. That's why I said "sorta." It wasn't based off of experience accumulating to being considered certified, it was based off of completion of requirements for certification. I've been looking into alternate ways to get a license so I can be more complete.

[LucidLucifer]

Yeah, I'm definitely interested in working outside the airport, thanks for the advice.

I've been to Chiang Mai a few times and really enjoyed it. Also, most of my friends that live in Thailand live there. I like the slower pace of life as opposed to Bangkok. I've considered Phuket and Bangkok, and I'm not throwing them out.

As far as certification, I have completed a certification course and passed all necessary tests. It's questionable to me because before I can have a full license, I have to teach for a year under a provisional license. The teaching job market here hasn't been the best since the summer I finished the course, so I haven't landed a yearlong position for my provisional license (not the reason I'm coming to Thailand). Teachers who have completed the same program say I'm considered certified, and I have held part-time positions that required a certified teacher. That's why I said "sorta." It wasn't based off of experience accumulating to being considered certified, it was based off of completion of requirements for certification. I've been looking into alternate ways to get a license so I can be more complete.

I now know where you are coming from when you say you are 'sorta' certified.

It sounds for the most part identical to how it is in the UK. You can hold Qualified Teacher Status (QTS), but until you have completed 3 full terms of induction, it is just probational. To get QTS you need to meet the professional standards to become a Newly Qualified Teacher (NQT). Once you have QTS there is a seperate set of standards to complete induction, otherwise know as your NQT year.

One thing I will say (and I presume it will be the same in US curriculum schools as it is in UK curriculum schools) is that the completion of your probationary year and home country experience is valued very highly. You may well find yourself struggling to find your way into the higher quality/better paying international schools without these.

[DerekAbroad]

One thing I will say (and I presume it will be the same in US curriculum schools as it is in UK curriculum schools) is that the completion of your probationary year and home country experience is valued very highly. You may well find yourself struggling to find your way into the higher quality/better paying international schools without these.

International schools may be lucrative, but that's really not the avenue I'm looking for. I'm more interested in an EFL setting, e.g. language schools, Thai schools, universities. I'm interested in second language acquisition and TESOL practices. I want to build experience to help me in research and practice in the future.

I appreciate your willingness to share incite and experience. You and everyone else have been very helpful, respectful, and mature.

[tolstoy]

A lot of advice is being thrown around but it seems that those offering suggestions have never worked in the jobs that they are advising.

FIrst of all you will not get any International school job without a degree in education and a teacher's license from your own country and usually a minimum of 2 years experience in your country. International schools will not recognize any other experience. Being a TA is not experience teaching children.

Second, there is no way that you will make more than 30k for your first job in CM. There are only a few schools that pay well in CM and a MATESOL is not what they look for. If you had a bachelors in science and a masters in education, you could make good money. Actually a few schools actually pay less now than they did 4 years ago. There just are too many fresh grads that will work for nothing to extend their holiday.

You have no "real" experience and are a recent grad. So even Unis will pass on you for someone that has actual full time experience. (unless it is a crappy school that doesn't check references)

You will find jobs at language schools throughout the year but coming in July-Sept will find you nothing at government or private schools or Unis. Even in October you will only find jobs where someone left halfway.

My suggestion would be to look at Payap, they pay adequately and offer a few more options for private extra money. The salary is low though and you do have to scan in and out (some work around this though).

The problem is that most Unis in CM only have a few full time and mostly have part time. I think CMU has 3 full time and over 30 part time. You have the qualifications but still need some experience to break the barrier to get the better jobs.

I personally, would avoid CM for working unless you have to live here. There are limited options in general, they ask/demand a lot and give very little. You are replacable to them and most managers don't consider investing time on their foreign staff because they are transient. Most schools do not keep teachers for more than 1-2 years. CMU is an exception there are a few that have been there for 20 years.

[LucidLucifer]

A lot of advice is being thrown around but it seems that those offering suggestions have never worked in the jobs that they are advising.

FIrst of all you will not get any International school job without a degree in education and a teacher's license from your own country and usually a minimum of 2 years experience in your country. International schools will not recognize any other experience. Being a TA is not experience teaching children.

Not strictly true. While you are completely correct regarding the experience and certification (I also said this in my previous post, although there are so called 'lower-tier' international schools that will except you without these), a degree in education is not mandatory. It is the home country certification that is the key factor.

If you want to check this for yourself, go onto some of websites of the different schools. Some have profiles of the teachers they employ, and you will see there are teachers that do not have a B.Ed.

I hold home country certification, but I do not have a degree in education. The qualifications and experience I do have were good enough to secure me a teaching position in one of the best international schools (I disagree in part in the whole mid-tier/higher-tier classification, things are not that clear cut, and it is too easy to pidgeonhole. I do agree that there are certainly lower-tier schools though).

And regarding being a TA as counting as experience, after working as an TEFL teacher in Thailand I returned home and worked as a EFL TA for a year. My school counted this year as experience when placing me on their salary scale. It shouldn't/wouldn't be totally discounted.

Maybe I was lucky, but if I was I know I am not the exception. I know of another teacher who has a job at what is widely regarded as one of the top 3 schools in Thailand. I can reassure you her CV is decidely less impressive than mine. The difference being, well basically as far as I can see it, she is a very attractive 25 year old single female, I am a late thirties male with a family and a child the school would need to find a place for.

Edited May 10, 2012 by LucidLucifer

[tolstoy]

Though I don't argue with what you say applying to lower tiered schools in BKK. I don't think that you work in Chiang Mai. This is not quite the same.

[LucidLucifer]

Though I don't argue with what you say applying to lower tiered schools in BKK. I don't think that you work in Chiang Mai. This is not quite the same.

Yes, you are quite correct in that. I haven't worked in Chiang Mai, and nor am I likely to. This is for the simple fact the schools there will not/can not offer me the career progression I am seeking.

My advice was offered on a general level, rather than a Chiang Mai specific one.

BTW there is nothing specific I dislike about Chiang Mai other than it is too far from the sea. I like to Scuba dive.

[tolstoy]

my statements were in regards specifically to CM as the OP requested.

In BKK there are a lot more options and opportunities for advancement even without proper qualifications. There are a lot more transients there and jobs open up a lot more.

Chiang Mai is a rarity in Thailand for its abundance of schools but lack of options.

[BlackArtemis]

The schools in Chiang Mai rarely post openings on Ajarn or Tesall. Go to each school's website and look under the jobs or employement section.

[DerekAbroad]

The schools in Chiang Mai rarely post openings on Ajarn or Tesall. Go to each school's website and look under the jobs or employement section.

That was my plan.

And right now I'm not looking to start a long career in TESOL in Thailand, maybe 5 years or so. As the end of that period approaches, I'll consider options and opportunities.

Thanks again, everyone, for the input.