Growth Cycle Of Pla Nin

[motorcrazy]

I was bemused when I read motorcrazy's post above ... it's true to his style of writing.

Oke my english its not the best,but i know what i doing before ,really and never give up .But believe me the thais not talk tomuch to you.

And my thai its good for 70 % ,its take me 3 years of alchol ,but i find it out.

And have many contact for whoselers for fish,and mushroom.

Poeple like us we come from mars he like they say the alien,thats true learn first to understand the real thai way before you spending here monney ,before your thai fiber come out from youself its take years,the way here its always sanook sanan .

My lucky was control my self AND MY FRIEND BABY STEPS.

There its no way for good profit not more than 14 % it does at metter what kind of life stok.

The rest its only 80 % of investement of time and feeding.

[finnomick1]

Hi Motorcrazy,

reading between the lines, I'd say you are from Germany, but that's just my guess. I understand whatyou mean about Thai's not saying much. They can have a ten minute conversation, and when you ask them what has been said they can tell you in less than ten words. I have learned not to ask more than one question at a time too.

With the mushrooms, we spent about three weeks with another grower in our village. We helped them build a new mushroom house, helped pick and prepare the mushrooms for market. We stayed with them for the whole growing cycle of our type of mushrooms. We picked their brains and my wife wrote everything down -- and I mean everything. We then thought about if it was the type of work that we could sustain, not just for a few weeks, but years. We agreed we could but it has turned out to be more hard work than we even thought. Plus, trying to keep a Thai interested in a long time project is not easy. They like to chop and change too much.

We built our mushroom houses, and had them paid for by the third cycle of mushrooms -- about three and a half months. Now every cycle of mushrooms is profit after taking out the set-up costs, mansampalang, spores etc. The mushroom tents are wearing thin due to the sun although we do have the black sun screen all around so they will have to be replaced but that in itself is not expensive. We'll keep growing mushrooms while we are making a good profit, but if the price drops too much, we just leave the houses empty until the price goes back up again. We don't make a fortune but we do make enough to live on.

[ray23]

This is the fish food we use 300 baht a bag

The big pond with a freash water spring.

The previous cat fish pond 400 Pla Nin will be added when budha supplies the water, both pond will be used for shrimp. This it reduce the population in the big pond, Because we had used nets to grow the fry we lost one fish out of 2000, I was expecting a lot more

The recently completed deck, this was kind of fin hadn't got work with wood in a long time

This is where you will find me on cool evenings with a glass of ice tea kicking back. Have more then adequate power outlets for any thing we want to do

The cat fish pond is the most expensive to operate as you have to add water from time to time.

Mind you this and the two muchrooms houses are on one Rai of land and plenty of room left for a house, if I become so inclined

[motorcrazy]

This is the fish food we use 300 baht a bag

The big pond with a freash water spring.

The previous cat fish pond 400 Pla Nin will be added when budha supplies the water, both pond will be used for shrimp. This it reduce the population in the big pond, Because we had used nets to grow the fry we lost one fish out of 2000, I was expecting a lot more

The recently completed deck, this was kind of fin hadn't got work with wood in a long time

This is where you will find me on cool evenings with a glass of ice tea kicking back. Have more then adequate power outlets for any thing we want to do

The cat fish pond is the most expensive to operate as you have to add water from time to time.

Mind you this and the two muchrooms houses are on one Rai of land and plenty of room left for a house, if I become so inclined

This really cool sitting outsite .

But the feed pallets the have a to low proteine .

Better spend than 60 bhat each more bag, than you wil hit 32 % of proteine

[tingtong]

what brand of feed you can buy at 32% protein for 300+60=360 THB?

can you pls let me know where do you buy it, maybe i would like to buy some too, the price seems definately better than what we have.

[ozzydom]

Nice pics Ray,just one comment, the water in that pond looks to have a bit of suspended clay still in it,the water should ideally be nearer the colour of the grass around the edges.

scattering 1/2 bag of Dolomite over the surface will help as the dolomite reacts with the clay and helps it settle to the bottom.

I will be in Udon for a few days R&R shortly ,so if "she who must be obeyed" were to knock up one of her "famous" choccy cakes ,I could be enticed out to look at your setup.

cheers

dom

[ray23]

Let me know I'm sure we can find soem cake around here

I gave it a boost today with cow manure, so it sould be greening up a bit fairly soon. First boos I have given it. I checked the weight on what I'm feeding, I'm not feeding one kilo a day I'm feedign 3.5 Kilos a day. The little buggers are growing pretty fast.

The clay look I think comes from the rain, running down the sides. Before we did the addition to create algae the water was crystle clear

I would love for you to check it out.

Still got my phone number?

[ozzydom]

PM me the number Ray .

[David48]

The big pond with a freash water spring.

The previous cat fish pond 400 Pla Nin will be added when budha supplies the water, both pond will be used for shrimp.

Do you plan to aerate the pond?

What plan for deterring thieves?

[finnomick1]

Let me know I'm sure we can find soem cake around here

I gave it a boost today with cow manure, so it sould be greening up a bit fairly soon. First boos I have given it. I checked the weight on what I'm feeding, I'm not feeding one kilo a day I'm feedign 3.5 Kilos a day. The little buggers are growing pretty fast.

The clay look I think comes from the rain, running down the sides. Before we did the addition to create algae the water was crystle clear

I would love for you to check it out.

Still got my phone number?

Our pla duk pond is this colour because the buggers are forever digging holes. Even the pla nin in another pond stir up the mud when they're digging their breeding hollows. Let's face it, fish like to stir up the mud to find food.

We use the same feed, but as motorcrazy says, this has too little protein -- 15.5%. We get ours just under 300 baht per 20kg sack. Nutrena has 27% protein ( if I remember correctly ) but costs around 460 baht per 20kg sack. More protein, quicker growth but more cost. I wonder which method of feeding actually comes out on top ? Less protein, more time to grow but less cost as against more protein, less time to grow but greater cost. The local government fishery at Buriram feeds them anything they can get their hands on -- it was frog pellets last time which I have never seen for sale anywhere before. I wish I had looked at the protein content. As I mentioned before, I saw fish pellets with 35% protein at a fish co-operative outlet in Buriram. About 500 baht per sack, not sure of weight, but they wouldn't sell me any -- I had to be a paid up member of the co-operative.

[ozzydom]

The fish food pictured is Centagrow which we pay 265 baht /bag, it is also available in 25% protein at 350 baht /bag.

I have never come across a shop which would not sell any fish food.

Pla Nin gain most of their food intake in green water from the micro-organisms and phyto-plankton therein making it unnecessary to provide other food,tests have shown that there is only 4-6 weeks difference in attaining 600-800 g.either way.

I only feed 1.5 kg per 1000 fish of any size twice daily to attain 600-800 g in about 8 months.

We time our rotation to sell from September -May . May- September is the period of low sales as Thais usually live on rats,frogs,insects etc during that period (wet season) of low income.

The hand feeding we do is purely to train the fish to come to certain areas of the ponds and make netting easier later, it also allows for observation of growing fish and help ascertain health etc.

Our feed cost is about 15% of gross sales value per cycle from fry to sales.

We also run about 40 Pekin ducks per rai to help provide Phosphate to the ponds and keep snail numbers down, return from eggs makes them cost neutral at best ,but with Triple Superphosphate at 1400-1800 baht bag their is a small saving there.

[David48]

We time our rotation to sell from September -May . May- September is the period of low sales as Thais usually live on rats,frogs,insects etc during that period (wet season) of low income.

ozzydom, could you expand on the above comment because I am interested to learn more.

You know my thread, I am sure, but I have never discussed with them about what might be seen a subtle cycle of rises and falls with the price of Fish.

For example, you are in a more rural location hence more susceptible to the price cycle?

So many questions ...

[finnomick1]

Interesting about the fish food Ozzydom, I've never seen Centagrow with 25% protein. You also pay less than the cheapest I've found ( so far ) for the 15.5% variety. We've noticed the ' seasonal ' trend for prices but it is not quite the same as yours. We live in a very rural rice growing area and while the rice is getting mature and at cutting time ( November to January ) we can hardly sell any fish because all the fields and ponds are full. I was at the local town market on monday evening and the pla nin fish stall was doing a roaring trade at 70 baht per kilo. Yet here in the village, people won't pay more than 55 baht per kilo anytime, so it looks like the misses and her sister will have to set up a stall in the market if they want a decent/better return. Trouble is, it'd be easier to draw hen's teeth than get Thai folk to take on a new idea !

[ozzydom]

Hi David,I buy my annual supply of fry about Xmas and wean them in a 100sq met fenced area in our biggest pond (1.5 rai),they are then transferred to the growing out ponds which are 1 rai each.

As the biggest costs are in the early stages with high protein % foods for a few weeks we usually sell our fish at minimum 600gram ,anything under that is returned to the ponds to grow on,toward the end of the rotation the average is 800-900g.

giving an annual average of 700g + -.

We dont have price fluctuations, as we sell direct to the public at the price I set each season (80Baht kg this year),our main competitor is CP with the market sellers whose price is 10 baht above us.

I dont haggle prices ,I believe that a fish that does not sell is adding value while it is still in the pond.

Our growing methods are almost the aquatic version of organic farming as the bulk of the fishes food intake is natural and this seems to be appreciated by our many clients.

Markets are ever changing,for instance we used to have flushes of extra high sales during rice planting and rice harvest periods when people are paid daily but mechanisation has changed that ,but it has been more than compensated for by rubber tapping and with more people having better transport we get customers from 20km and more away.

Profits in this game can only be maximised by keeping costs to a minimum while retaining quality.

I looked at value adding by growing some fish on to 1kg and doing boned/skinless fillets for the hospitality trade,with a 30% reclaim the fillets have to sell for about 300 baht/kg.

Samples I did and distributed were well received but quantities made the required capitol costs of processing room ,chiller and ice making etc uneconomical at that stage.

[ray23]

Do you plan to aerate the pond?

Both ponds aerated when fish are in them 7/24.

The small one has no fish right now, I will be moving Pla Nin into when the rain fills it. I have 2.k fish in the big pond so I need to move some to many fish. I was expecting a much bigger loss then I had.

[ozzydom]

Finnomick1,Most of the fish sold in the village markets are small (400g tops) fish from ponds pumped out to water paddies once a year.

We are only 5km from a largish rural town where CP supply the local sellers ,these fish are cage reared and intensively fed and retail at 90 baht kg .

Our sales are always down when the cheap (40-45 baht kg )fish are about but it only lasts a day or two at best.

We do between 6 and 7 tonnes in an 8 month selling season which suits us and as our farm is only 5 rai its not a bad return on capitol.

When I next go up town I will try to get a more comprehensive list of fish foods and prices for comparison.

Keeping costs down is the key to profits in farming, for instance layer crumbles for chickens and ducks is about 400 baht/20 kg bagor 20 baht a kilo (18% protein)

I mix my own using Soy bean meal and ram to 20% protein for less than 10 baht kg or a saving of 50% on bird tucker.

[ozzydom]

Ray ,do you have your aerator stones laying on te pond bottom or suspended?

[ray23]

Our air supply is made from 3/4 inch PVC which I drilled a ton of small holes in. They are tied to to the bottom. The little low volatge pump we have will float the PVC. Operating both of these pumps costs 300 baht a month for electricity and they are on 7/24. Bit, our ponds are much smaller then yours.

I had thought about putting chicken coops over the pond, I have seen huge operations in the states doing this.

Would using this method cut feed costs. You would have to feed the chickens to do it?

I love fresh eggs so not a bad deal for me. Thails would go nuts over it but sometimes I just do what I think is best.

A freind explained it me this way once:

There is the right way

There is the wrong way

There is the Thai way

There is my way adn since it's my money we are doing it my way

Just kidding I have learned a lot from the Thai way in the past and usually a combibnation is the best way.

When I did the deck I framed it the way I wanted. Thail;s didn; have a clue waht I was doing. But, now that it;s done they see it is vrey strong a well as being good looking and comfortable to use.

I have no idea what will happen when we beging sale we are told that we can get 90 baht a kilo. my guess is we will be selling to villagers.

That is what happened on the cat fish, sold out 400 in about a month. But, they Thai liked them so small you couldn't make money to many fish involved in gettign to a kilo. I would never eat a Cat fish under 12 inches anything below that I would just throw them abck and tell to go get their big brother.

We were told we would get 35 baht a kilo, we got 50 baht a kilo wiht no problem at all. If you could grow them to size you might make a few baht.

Anyway very curious about the chicken or duck idea. A very small bag of Cow Manure is costing 30 baht each. I used tow in the nbig pond adn one in the little pond waiting for water. Mixed it with water where we have fish and then threw it in

[ozzydom]

Ray,You only need to "green " the water for Pla Nin .it is of no benefit to cats or prawns.

Fresh manure is IMHO to hard to regulate as the Phosphate content is an unknown factor.Then the fact that any phosphate is only available after the manure is broken down by bacteria in the pond which in turn consume oxygen which your fish need.

Several ton of fresh manure will only provide the Phosphate that is derived from 1 x 50kg bag of 16-20-0 fertilizer.

1 kg of 16-20-0 will green about 150sq met of pond at a cost of 13 baht and you get an algael bloom within a few days in warm weather.Algae (the green film that will float on the surface) is extremely high in protein and the Pla Nin will be seen on the surface slurping it down.

Some feed and fertilizer shops re-bag fertilizer so you may find one selling 1kg bags of 16-20-0.

You are looking to create a green soup full of goodies that are your Pla Nins staple food, if you put your arm down in the water, palm upward, your palm should not be visible at 10 inches down.Once you have that just throw a handful of pellets in once a day simply to eyeball the fish and check their progress.

[finnomick1]

Finnomick1,Most of the fish sold in the village markets are small (400g tops) fish from ponds pumped out to water paddies once a year.

We are only 5km from a largish rural town where CP supply the local sellers ,these fish are cage reared and intensively fed and retail at 90 baht kg .

Our sales are always down when the cheap (40-45 baht kg )fish are about but it only lasts a day or two at best.

We do between 6 and 7 tonnes in an 8 month selling season which suits us and as our farm is only 5 rai its not a bad return on capitol.

When I next go up town I will try to get a more comprehensive list of fish foods and prices for comparison.

Keeping costs down is the key to profits in farming, for instance layer crumbles for chickens and ducks is about 400 baht/20 kg bagor 20 baht a kilo (18% protein)

I mix my own using Soy bean meal and ram to 20% protein for less than 10 baht kg or a saving of 50% on bird tucker.

Very interesting information Ozzydom. I was only talking to someone who is wanting to rear turkeys yesterday and like me he wants to mix his own feed. We were both stumped when it came to Soy bean meal. Where do you buy it from ? It would also be interesting to know your location. Pardon my ignorance, but I've never heard of layer crumbles either. Any further information will be very enlightening. My ponds are a lot smaller than yours, I've only got 4 covering one rai but we also have another rai which is under sugarcane at the moment. I'd like it to be a pond but unless we can get more for our fish, then no more will be dug. Even at the local market at 70 baht per kilo would be better for us, let alone 80 to 90 baht per kilo that others obviously can achieve. There's also a German guy near Buriram who's spent millions on fish growing and he hasn't got any ponds. All his fish are grown in ' towers ' of concrete circles. All water is filtered and airated. And believe it or not, I'm told he's got the Macro and Big C around our area sewn up. His place also happens to be about 500 metres from the government fishery where he gets all his fry.

[finnomick1]

Ray, I've seen the system you are writing about with chickens, ducks and even pigs where the waste just flows or drops into the fish ponds. This method is actually now out-lawed in Thailand but it still goes on. Around here even local yokels won't buy the fish if they know it's full of crap ( bit like me really but I use that on the mushrooms ).

[David48]

Hi David,I buy my annual supply of fry about Xmas and <snip>

ozzydom, thanks for making the time to reply to the many questions here.

Personally I have learnt a great deal ...

[ray23]

Dom. only have Pla Nin now I will look around

[ray23]

Ray, I've seen the system you are writing about with chickens, ducks and even pigs where the waste just flows or drops into the fish ponds. This method is actually now out-lawed in Thailand but it still goes on. Around here even local yokels won't buy the fish if they know it's full of crap ( bit like me really but I use that on the mushrooms ).

It's the Algae the fish eat not the crap

[ray23]

is it just me or does that water look greener today ?

I think the pond that needs the treatment is the old Cat Fish pond, it dfinelty has a lot of clay in the water.

[ray23]

Someone asked what we were doing about theft.

The soil is one and half meters higher then the surrounding property. The fence is two meters high. We also have friends living next door. It could be done but it would take some work. lots of easier ones around the area.

[finnomick1]

Hi David,I buy my annual supply of fry about Xmas and <snip>

ozzydom, thanks for making the time to reply to the many questions here.

Personally I have learnt a great deal ...

Here here David, I think I've learned more here in the last three days than I have over the last 3 years since we dug the ponds. With a bit more info from Ozzydom, re: my last post I think my faith in growing on fish can be revitalised and will save me the expense of having the ponds filled in.

[ray23]

With the water management of Thailand the ponds might prove vaery a valuable in other ways as well.

[David48]

Hi David,I buy my annual supply of fry about Xmas and <snip>

ozzydom, thanks for making the time to reply to the many questions here.

Personally I have learnt a great deal ...

Here here David, I think I've learned more here in the last three days than I have over the last 3 years since we dug the ponds. With a bit more info from Ozzydom, re: my last post I think my faith in growing on fish can be revitalised and will save me the expense of having the ponds filled in.

Yes, when ozzydom posts ... we all read with interest.

you have to respect a guy how's doing it ... not just talking about it.

If you havn't already and have an 5 minutes spare, pop on over and have a look here also ... http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/536875-fish-and-shrimp-farm/ and say hello ...

[finnomick1]

With the water management of Thailand the ponds might prove vaery a valuable in other ways as well.

You are quite right Ray. When the macro dug it's first bucketfull out, the hole instantly filled with water. The driver jumped out of the machine with a cup, filled it from the water in the new hole and pronounced it to be very drinkable. Hence our largest and deepest ( 6m ) pond is reserved for the sale of ' sweet water '.