Visa For Babies Born Outside Of Thailand

[sylvafern]

I'm hoping that someone here can help me with a situation I have with my 3 month old twins.

I've lived and worked in Bangkok for many years and have the correct visa and work permit to stay here. When the floods hit last year and I had to evacuate my home, I decided to return to New Zealand to have my babies rather than having them in Bangkok as planned. Before returning to Thailand, I contacted the visa officers at the school I work at to get the required paper work to obtain visas for the babies and was told I could bring my babies to Thailand without a visa as they are under 7 years old. However, when we went to check-in for our Emirates flight, we were told that the babies did need visas - we were not allowed on the flight without a visa unless I had evidence of a flight out of Thailand so that they could get 30 days on arrival. This meant I needed to purchase one-way tickets back to New Zealand for the babies even though I had no intention of using them. On arrival in Bangkok, the immigration officers stamped their passports with a 30 day entry which allows them to stay until May 11th. The visa officers at my school are adamant that the babies did not need visas to enter the country and, at present, do not need visas to stay in the country. At this time, they are not going to assist me in obtaining visas for the babies or nor will they get me an extension of the 30 days visa. They say that it is okay for babies to overstay their visa and I won't have any trouble when I try to leave the country.

What I would like to know is:

1) Did Emirates make a mistake and should they have let us on the flight without evidence of tickets leaving Thailand?

2) Did the visa officers at my school make the mistake and should they have provided me with the correct paperwork to get visas for the twins?

3) Will I have trouble leaving the country if the babies overstay their 30 days? It's likely that we will not be leaving the country again until July 2013 so they will have overstayed their 30 day visa by 14 months.

4) Is it possible for the visa staff to obtain visas permitting my children to stay longer than the 30 days from within Thailand?

This situation has caused a great deal of stress for me and I am currently the only staff member (that I know of) at the school that does not have visas for their children born outside of Thailand. I was told that my situation is different than others - most staff arrive here with their children when they first come out so visas were obtained for the whole family at the same time. Apparently, it is different for me as I already had the correct visa and have been working in Thailand since before the babies were born. However, a colleague of mine returned to Australia to have her children and she required visas for her children to get into the country. This was 3 years ago and I was told the rules have changed since then.

If anyone can shed some light on my situation, I will be very grateful!

Thanks

Edited May 4, 2012 by sylvafern

[Maestro]

1. No. For children, visa requirements are the same as for adults.
   
2. No. The cheapest visa, a tourist visa, would have been OK and no paper work from the school is necessary for this.
   
3. No. There is no overtime fine for children below the age of 14.
   
4. No. They need no paperwork from the school for a one-year extension as dependent of a parent, but since they are not subject to overtime fines it is not essential to make these applications.
   

[wayned]

Is your wife Thai? If she is, they are Thai citizens, but there birth certificates must be issued bu the Embassy in New Zealand.

[Richard W]

Is your wife Thai? If she is, they are Thai citizens, but there birth certificates must be issued bu the Embassy in New Zealand.

They're foreigners until they return to Thailand on their Thai passports. I can imagine all sorts of hassle getting their Thai passports.

The twins' father is Thai; it's the mother who's a New Zealander.

[Mario2008]

As the OP said, he needed to have tickets out of Thailand within 30 days since the children had no visa. Tickets to a neighbouring country would have been enough for that purpose, it didn't need to be much more expensive tickets back to NZ.

[wayned]

Unless I am wrong, they have to have a birth certificate issued by the Thai Embassy in the country where they were born, New Zealand, before they can get a Thai Passport. With the birth certificate they could obtain a Thai passport in either New Zealand or Thailand even if they were on a visa exempt entry. They do not have to enter on a Thai passport. The birth certificate isssued by the Thai Embassy in New Zealand is proof of their citizenship.

[TommoPhysicist]

Is your wife Thai? If she is, they are Thai citizens, but there birth certificates must be issued bu the Embassy in New Zealand.

They're foreigners until they return to Thailand on their Thai passports. I can imagine all sorts of hassle getting their Thai passports.

The twins' father is Thai; it's the mother who's a New Zealander.

No mention of being married (as far as I can see) so at the moment children are not Thai.

Mother and father need to be married, before children acknowledged as Thai.

@Wayne

Thai embassy won't issue Thai birth cert or passport unless Thai father married to foreign lady (as far as I know)

Edited May 5, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[lopburi3]

From post is seems the mother is not Thai and returned to homeland to give birth and no mention or marriage so that is unknown. But the immediate issue is that child will be on overstay but there will not be any fine involved below age 15 but there passport will be stamped on exit and there could be issues for education as stay in Thailand is not legal. If mother is on one year extension of stay they could obtain extensions matching hers but would require a non immigrant O visa entry so likely not something that can be done without some planning/exit of country and return with visa. For now it should not be an immediate concern. Long term either Thai citizenship/passports or dependent visa should be in the plans.

[jamescollister]

Way I read it neither the OP wife[ mother] are Thai, so kids are kiwis. OP needs a dependent child visa. 90 day visa should have been applied for in NZ and then a dependent child applied for in Thailand. Think he has a problem, if when they leave Thailand the kids will be on overstay, no fine, but their passports will be on the computer as overstays. This may be a problem when they try to return to Thailand. Jim

[lopburi3]

Overstay of minor is not, and never has been, a problem on return to Thailand. In the case of children it is the recommendation of immigration when asked.

[sylvafern]

Thanks Jim - I hadn't thought about having a record in the computer as overstays.

Funny how most people assumed I am a he (and have a Thai wife!). Richard W is right - I'm the mother and I'm New Zealand and the father is Thai (either a good guess of you know me in real life!). I haven't got as far as investigating getting the babies Thai citizenship as I imagine it could be a bit of a hassle and, with 3 month twins, I don't have time in my life right now for extra hassles! Tommo - mother and father don't need to be married for a child to be acknowledged as Thai - I'm not married and my 7 year old who was born in Thailand got his Thai citizenship and passport with no problems at all (he also has NZ citizenship and an NZ passport).

Thanks Lopburi and Maestro for your responses - I think you've cleared up the issue for me. I perhaps need to look at getting the babies Thai citizenship if this is the easiest way to solve the problem, otherwise I will get dependent visas next time I leave the country.

Thank

Edited May 5, 2012 by sylvafern

[samran]

Thanks Jim - I hadn't thought about having a record in the computer as overstays.

Funny how most people assumed I am a he (and have a Thai wife!). Richard W is right - I'm the mother and I'm New Zealand and the father is Thai (either a good guess of you know me in real life!). I haven't got as far as investigating getting the babies Thai citizenship as I imagine it could be a bit of a hassle and, with 3 month twins, I don't have time in my life right now for extra hassles! Tommo - mother and father don't need to be married for a child to be acknowledged as Thai - I'm not married and my 7 year old who was born in Thailand got his Thai citizenship and passport with no problems at all (he also has NZ citizenship and an NZ passport).

Thanks Lopburi and Maestro for your responses - I think you've cleared up the issue for me. I perhaps need to look at getting the babies Thai citizenship if this is the easiest way to solve the problem, otherwise I will get dependent visas next time I leave the country.

Thank

You'll need the Thai embassy in Wellington to process their Thai birth certificates.

Following that, the can be registered on the tabien baan, followed by the passports.

I believe the dept of consular affairs in Chaeng Wattana has a desk which can liaise with Wellington on the paperwork for the Thai BC's.

Go through the steps to get them the passports in BKK and then whenever they next travel, they leave on the NZ passports with no fines, and return on the Thai passports.

[Mario2008]

Not being married to a Thai means the child must be recognized as his by the Thai fahter, according to NZ law. Then the fahter is Thai and a Thai birth certificate can be applied for, together with a Thai passport for both children.

Given your past expierience the legitimization might not be needed or is simply done by registering the birth in New Zealand.

[draftvader]

Just been through this with our little girl. Myself and my wife are both British Citizens. My wife is on a Non-Immi 'B' with a work permit. I am on a Non-Immi 'O' as a dependent. Our daughter WILL require a 90 day Non-Immi 'O'. We are all extended every 90 days at Nonthaburi immigration.

This information is from this week at Nonthaburi Immigration and applies even though our girl was born in Thailand and has a Thai birth certificate, but is a British Citizen with a British Passport. Interestingly my wife's employer (nice bunch at a small school who we know personally) insisted that she wouldn't need a visa, but I pushed back and asked them to call immigration. The school were quite surprised at this themselves.

Hope this clarifies it for you.

[lopburi3]

There is no such requirement for new extension of stay every 90 days if your wife has the normal one year extension (you should have the same but as dependent). Believe you are talking about 90 day address reporting rather than new extensions every 90 days?

[samran]

Just been through this with our little girl. Myself and my wife are both British Citizens. My wife is on a Non-Immi 'B' with a work permit. I am on a Non-Immi 'O' as a dependent. Our daughter WILL require a 90 day Non-Immi 'O'. We are all extended every 90 days at Nonthaburi immigration.

This information is from this week at Nonthaburi Immigration and applies even though our girl was born in Thailand and has a Thai birth certificate, but is a British Citizen with a British Passport. Interestingly my wife's employer (nice bunch at a small school who we know personally) insisted that she wouldn't need a visa, but I pushed back and asked them to call immigration. The school were quite surprised at this themselves.

Hope this clarifies it for you.

what makes this situation different too is that the children are actually Thai citizens, though without the requisite proof (ie birth certificate and passport).

[lopburi3]

Easy to misread above - the OP's children are Thai - not draftvader's children - making it apples and oranges on the one hand but same in practice as both entered using foreign passports so require visas/extensions of stay.

[spacebass]

1. No. For children, visa requirements are the same as for adults.
   
2. No. The cheapest visa, a tourist visa, would have been OK and no paper work from the school is necessary for this.
   
3. No. There is no overtime fine for children below the age of 14.
   
4. No. They need no paperwork from the school for a one-year extension as dependent of a parent, but since they are not subject to overtime fines it is not essential to make these applications.
   

It is certainly not true that in practice a baby is required to have a visa, although I cannot recount the wholel story in detail off the top of my head, my Finnish friend who has a baby with his Thai lady (I am not sure if they are legally married) which has a Finnish passport was told a similar story as that recounted by the original poster. He has brought the baby a couple of times to Thailand without any visa and has not had any problems at all.

If I were the original poster I would go to the local immigration office to put your mind at rest, and in fact Emirates were at fault by not permitting your babies to board the plane as no visa was required for them.

[Mario2008]

Children are required to have a visa of their own.

[lopburi3]

Believe you are mistaking visa exempt entry (which can also be obtained for a child) as not needing visa - some form of entry is required for a child so if no visa, visa exempt could be used but as said would require an onward ticket by some airlines to allow boarding. Or, I believe some countries passports allow having child on parents passport so one visa would cover both but this is a very poor way to travel as child can not travel in a medical emergency with other parent.

[Mario2008]

Believe even in that case a child needs a visa of its own.

With new EU-rules, many EU-countries will no longer allow children to be on the passport of a parent and must have a passport of their own. If I recall corectly the measure will be effective 1 June 2012 (at least for the Netherlands). As of that date children can no longer travel without their own passport and there registration in the passprot of one of their parents is no longer valid.

[draftvader]

There is no such requirement for new extension of stay every 90 days if your wife has the normal one year extension (you should have the same but as dependent). Believe you are talking about 90 day address reporting rather than new extensions every 90 days?

My wife and I have been in Thailand for more than 1 year without leaving. Our daughter was born in Thailand and has never left Thailand, but is a British Citizen. We have been told, by immigration, that we can remain (on 90 day extensions of stay) and our daughter does NOT need a Visa until we require to re-enter. Co-incidentally we are travelling to England in June to introduce our new family member to our families, therefore we had been investigating this.

Just been through this with our little girl. Myself and my wife are both British Citizens. My wife is on a Non-Immi 'B' with a work permit. I am on a Non-Immi 'O' as a dependent. Our daughter WILL require a 90 day Non-Immi 'O'. We are all extended every 90 days at Nonthaburi immigration.

This information is from this week at Nonthaburi Immigration and applies even though our girl was born in Thailand and has a Thai birth certificate, but is a British Citizen with a British Passport. Interestingly my wife's employer (nice bunch at a small school who we know personally) insisted that she wouldn't need a visa, but I pushed back and asked them to call immigration. The school were quite surprised at this themselves.

Hope this clarifies it for you.

what makes this situation different too is that the children are actually Thai citizens, though without the requisite proof (ie birth certificate and passport).

As the OP, the mother, is stating, even though the father is Thai, she is not interested in persuing Thai citizenship at this time. Therefore these children are New Zealand nationals and will, until they have their Thai citizenship, require a dependent visa.

@spacebass Emirates are WELL within their rights to block entry to the plane due to innapropriate documentation. I have, nearly, had similar issues with an American Airlines desk in Narita Airport, Tokyo who wasn't clear on British Citizen's right of entry to Mexico. I had to have her contact her superiors who contacted the British Embassy who confirmed I did NOT have to have an onbound flight ticket.

[Mario2008]

The point that is being made is that the children have Thai nationality al ready, simply because the father is Thai. They don't have to apply for it to get it.

What they do need to do is register their birth with the Thai government, simply because otherwise the Thai government doesn't know that a Thai national was born and cannot check their claim that they are Thai.

[lopburi3]

If your wife is employed as a teacher why would she/you need to extend stay every 90 days? Normal extension for employment is 1 year. You are saying every 90 days you both visit immigrant with TM.7 and 1,900 baht for a new extension? Normally 90 day extension is only for those doing language study.

[samran]

Just been through this with our little girl. Myself and my wife are both British Citizens. My wife is on a Non-Immi 'B' with a work permit. I am on a Non-Immi 'O' as a dependent. Our daughter WILL require a 90 day Non-Immi 'O'. We are all extended every 90 days at Nonthaburi immigration.

This information is from this week at Nonthaburi Immigration and applies even though our girl was born in Thailand and has a Thai birth certificate, but is a British Citizen with a British Passport. Interestingly my wife's employer (nice bunch at a small school who we know personally) insisted that she wouldn't need a visa, but I pushed back and asked them to call immigration. The school were quite surprised at this themselves.

Hope this clarifies it for you.

what makes this situation different too is that the children are actually Thai citizens, though without the requisite proof (ie birth certificate and passport).

As the OP, the mother, is stating, even though the father is Thai, she is not interested in persuing Thai citizenship at this time. Therefore these children are New Zealand nationals and will, until they have their Thai citizenship, require a dependent visa.

That is true in so far as the kids are in LOS are in Thailand on their NZ passports.

But it is also the case according to Thai law, the children are already Thai citizens.

The process to get them the dependent visa though will require a departure from the country. At which point, you may as well process the Thai documentation, as it isn't as hard as the OP envisages, and negates the further need for extensions of stay, 90 day reports etc that generally comes with that.

Edited May 6, 2012 by samran

[kiwikeith]

Very simple, just been through this with my child born in NZ to thai wife.

You need the NZ birth certificate and ID of Mother and father, plus the Thai fathers ID number/papers and his thai birth cert and house papers then apply at the thai embassy for the babies thai birth certificate (not sure if you can do this outside of thailand but you may be able to through the bankok embassy) we did it here and all done in 2 weeks.Then once you have the thai birth certificate you apply for thai passport , done! but you will also need 2 passport photos of each baby also when you apply for birth certificate.

If you dont need to pay overstayer fine then dont worry do papers next time your back in NZ.

If you have all the paper work with you in thailand try the thai embassy or do it all next time you return to NZ.

Thailand recognises dual citizen so you can hold two passports for the child.

[lopburi3]

Actually Thailand does not officially recognize dual citizenship but as with the US has not laws preventing it so people can have.

[TommoPhysicist]

Very simple, just been through this with my child born in NZ to thai wife.

You need the NZ birth certificate and ID of Mother and father, plus the Thai fathers ID number/papers and his thai birth cert and house papers then apply at the thai embassy for the babies thai birth certificate (not sure if you can do this outside of thailand but you may be able to through the bankok embassy) we did it here and all done in 2 weeks.Then once you have the thai birth certificate you apply for thai passport , done! but you will also need 2 passport photos of each baby also when you apply for birth certificate.

If you dont need to pay overstayer fine then dont worry do papers next time your back in NZ.

If you have all the paper work with you in thailand try the thai embassy or do it all next time you return to NZ.

Thailand recognises dual citizen so you can hold two passports for the child.

How do you get around the Thai father not being married to the mother?

Thailand considers the child to have no father unless married or recognized at Amphur when age 7+ (or court order)

[Mario2008]

Child is born abroad, so legitimization of the child must occur according to local law.

The fahter has to provide papers and sign the application also, leaving little doubt that he agrees the child is his.

[a99az]

As the OP said, he needed to have tickets out of Thailand within 30 days since the children had no visa. Tickets to a neighbouring country would have been enough for that purpose, it didn't need to be much more expensive tickets back to NZ.

You only need a reservation to fly out, I had to do it once.