Red Shirts Want An End To Military Coups: Thida

[siampolee]

The nation's dreams are troubled, sometimes; dim rumours reach our sleeping ears, rumours that all is not well in the administration of justice; but an ancient spell murmurs through our somnolence, and we remember that the courts are bound to seek the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and we turn over and sleep soundly again.

An interesting comment to say the least and from a supporter and strident defender of Thaksin and his present puppet maladministration too.

[rixalex]

And whether or not anything ever gets proven, be interested to know if Mr birdpoo seriously is of the belief that Thaksin bears no responsibility for the events on the streets of Bangkok in 2009 and 2010.

He was inexorably linked by the fact they were rightfully protesting about his illegal deposition as PM.

I see. You accept he is inexorably linked, but express triumphant glee that nobody has been able to link him.

[h90]

Thanks.That's more or less the predicted line from the usual suspects, denying the present government's electoral legitimacy.

There were massive vote buying or there were not? Tell me!

Is an election where 3/4 of the people are approached with money offers for voting the "right" party democratic or not democratic in your opinion?

If the Democrats would go around in the North and North East and just double what Thaksin pays and than win the election, would you also agree that it is perfect democratic or is it only OK if the party you like wins?

Vote buying is wrong whoever is responsible, as are other electoral irregularities.However no serious source argues that the last election in Thailand was unfair or unrepresentative overall.Your earlier post taking a different view is typical of a discredited extremist camp that hates the idea of genuine democracy.

I take you aren't living in Thailand. Because if you would, you would have seen it yourself.

And again in a democracy the voter aren't paid.

See the last by election in Pathum Thani. There was no (or at least I don't know about it) vote buying. That is exactly what happens if PTP does not pay.

Their corrupt follower just don't go to the election. The Democrat voter are higher motivated and won the election.

If I recall right 70 % did not go to the election, so I think it can't be called democratic if only 30 % vote.

You can also see if just 30 % vote without payment how the results can shift if you can buy a few of the 70 % who don't care.

The complete democratic system is rotten down in Thailand. No matter if PTP or Democrats and no one is interested to improve it.

I think there is no solution, if you can buy people, MPs, police, court, media and army. Some groups try to get power by any means, if it is a coup or an election doesn't make much difference (as already Thaksin and his brother told in other words, but also the PAD and Red Shirts).

[jayboy]

I take you aren't living in Thailand. Because if you would, you would have seen it yourself.

And again in a democracy the voter aren't paid.

See the last by election in Pathum Thani. There was no (or at least I don't know about it) vote buying. That is exactly what happens if PTP does not pay.

Their corrupt follower just don't go to the election. The Democrat voter are higher motivated and won the election.

If I recall right 70 % did not go to the election, so I think it can't be called democratic if only 30 % vote.

You can also see if just 30 % vote without payment how the results can shift if you can buy a few of the 70 % who don't care.

The complete democratic system is rotten down in Thailand. No matter if PTP or Democrats and no one is interested to improve it.

I think there is no solution, if you can buy people, MPs, police, court, media and army. Some groups try to get power by any means, if it is a coup or an election doesn't make much difference (as already Thaksin and his brother told in other words, but also the PAD and Red Shirts).

Your first para misses the point.It's not that electoral irregularities don't take place, it's just that they didn't have a material effect on the outcome in Thailand (at least recently).As the army found out it's actually quite hard to "fix" an election in Thailand.If you are implying - and you appear to be - that the Dems recent victory in Pathum Thani was because the PTP didn't get round to vote buying and that the Dems would win in a national fair fight - that is an extremely eccentric interpretation.Anyway if you can identify one serious source to support your view perhaps you would identify it.

Your second para seems to be just a rant, or have I missed a point?

[whybother]

It must be pointed out that it was the government who 'took to the streets with arms'and only then did the red shirts start to burn things down.

I think you forgot about pouring blood, storming parliament, and storming Thaicom ... and then using grenades and an armed militia. Once they'd done all that, then they burnt things down.

It is true that there were some snipers on both sides before the Army in APCs and battledress took to the streets against a mainly peaceful demonstration. There is no way, you can compare the redshirts actions before that, with the how the army behaved.

I accept that the redshirts were not blameless. Pity, they would have had a very strong case if they had been able to follow the example of the student lead demonstrations in Beijing rather than the example of the army on previous occasions in Bangkok.

Let’s face it, they knew from previous patterns of behaviour that the Army would attack them, and not with water cannons. I am not surprised they armed themselves.

In the days prior to April 10, the army didn't attack them, so maybe if the red shirts weren't armed with guns and grenades on April 10, they wouldn't have been attacked either.

[h90]

I take you aren't living in Thailand. Because if you would, you would have seen it yourself.

And again in a democracy the voter aren't paid.

See the last by election in Pathum Thani. There was no (or at least I don't know about it) vote buying. That is exactly what happens if PTP does not pay.

Their corrupt follower just don't go to the election. The Democrat voter are higher motivated and won the election.

If I recall right 70 % did not go to the election, so I think it can't be called democratic if only 30 % vote.

You can also see if just 30 % vote without payment how the results can shift if you can buy a few of the 70 % who don't care.

The complete democratic system is rotten down in Thailand. No matter if PTP or Democrats and no one is interested to improve it.

I think there is no solution, if you can buy people, MPs, police, court, media and army. Some groups try to get power by any means, if it is a coup or an election doesn't make much difference (as already Thaksin and his brother told in other words, but also the PAD and Red Shirts).

Your first para misses the point.It's not that electoral irregularities don't take place, it's just that they didn't have a material effect on the outcome in Thailand (at least recently).As the army found out it's actually quite hard to "fix" an election in Thailand.If you are implying - and you appear to be - that the Dems recent victory in Pathum Thani was because the PTP didn't get round to vote buying and that the Dems would win in a national fair fight - that is an extremely eccentric interpretation.Anyway if you can identify one serious source to support your view perhaps you would identify it.

Your second para seems to be just a rant, or have I missed a point?

That the Democrats would win in a fair national fight: Serious source: Yes I have it.

The serious source is that Thaksin paid billions on the last election if he would have won it without paying?

Without vote buying we would see 20-30 % attending the election only (no money no vote...) and that could have strange results.

But it isn't important. An election with massive vote buying is not valid, no matter if your loved party or any other won. No matter if it would have won without vote buying or not, because it can not be proofed.

[hellodolly]

I admit I skipped through her article it was to nonsensical 60% red shirt equals 60% democratic. And it didn't take to many posts and to realize she is clueless. I guess that is why she is a red shirt. Common sense not allowed.

Didn't Karl Marx preach some thing about government for the workers. I don't know but I do know that with out these nefarious evil elites Thailand would be a shambles. They are for sure greedy and for the most part heedless of the workers but they are needed to provide the jobs for the workers.

Look at Cambodia when Pol Pot did away with the elite and every one was supposed to go back to the land and grow rice. Is that the red shirt great plan.

[hellodolly]

I take you aren't living in Thailand. Because if you would, you would have seen it yourself.

And again in a democracy the voter aren't paid.

See the last by election in Pathum Thani. There was no (or at least I don't know about it) vote buying. That is exactly what happens if PTP does not pay.

Their corrupt follower just don't go to the election. The Democrat voter are higher motivated and won the election.

If I recall right 70 % did not go to the election, so I think it can't be called democratic if only 30 % vote.

You can also see if just 30 % vote without payment how the results can shift if you can buy a few of the 70 % who don't care.

The complete democratic system is rotten down in Thailand. No matter if PTP or Democrats and no one is interested to improve it.

I think there is no solution, if you can buy people, MPs, police, court, media and army. Some groups try to get power by any means, if it is a coup or an election doesn't make much difference (as already Thaksin and his brother told in other words, but also the PAD and Red Shirts).

Your first para misses the point.It's not that electoral irregularities don't take place, it's just that they didn't have a material effect on the outcome in Thailand (at least recently).As the army found out it's actually quite hard to "fix" an election in Thailand.If you are implying - and you appear to be - that the Dems recent victory in Pathum Thani was because the PTP didn't get round to vote buying and that the Dems would win in a national fair fight - that is an extremely eccentric interpretation.Anyway if you can identify one serious source to support your view perhaps you would identify it.

Your second para seems to be just a rant, or have I missed a point?

That the Democrats would win in a fair national fight: Serious source: Yes I have it.

The serious source is that Thaksin paid billions on the last election if he would have won it without paying?

Without vote buying we would see 20-30 % attending the election only (no money no vote...) and that could have strange results.

But it isn't important. An election with massive vote buying is not valid, no matter if your loved party or any other won. No matter if it would have won without vote buying or not, because it can not be proofed.

In a serious national election the leader of a party would not be afraid to debate their contender,

Can just see it now Abhist behind a podium and a smiling picture of Yingluck on the other podium.

[ianf]

If they have 10 million supporter why did they need massive vote buying to get Thaksins clone elected?

I thought people would elect them for free and isn't vote buying undemocratic.

In the election before last, they even bribed voters in constituencies where they ran unopposed.

They cheated in elections where they were the only candidate.

almost as if it just innate for them that they cheat.

The usual suspects just can't bring themselves to admit openly the government has an electoral mandate, despite the endorsement of all independent electoral organisations, international observers and opposition parties including the Democrats.I guarantee they will not without prevarication or deliberate evasion say while there was certainly vote buying and irregular practices, actually across all parties though I'm not making an issue of that now, but it did not make a material difference to the final outcome.They just can't do it.

I think the main problem was that this election did not quality as 'democratic' - ie: giving people a free and fair choice having run the policies, arguments and a way forward for the nation before the electorate. From the PTP side there were no policies, simply 'bribes' that appealed to the lowest common denominator. And off course those 'bribes' are now proving difficult to pay out because they were not thought-through policies. They were simply spur of the moment ideas that came from the big boss. There was no costing involved and no cost-benefit analysis - they were simply that, BRIBES! When you are offering this to the downtrodden lumpenproletariat in this country, they think that this is what politics is about. Thaksin, as smart as ever, recognised that this was they way to go. It is sad for the misled population who deserve better than this. They need policies that will improve the everyday lives of people such as better treatment at work and a better education system. They need politics that discourages graft, that offer better health services and that give people opportunities for a better life. It will take some time for Thaksin's ill-considered bribes to come to fruition and by the time they do so most of them will be meaningless, or in the case of the Rice Mortgage scheme, highly damaging to the economy. The whole think is typical of the Thai attitude. Everything is done for short-term gain, nothing is done to safeguard the future and at the end of the day this type of scary politics emanates from one person and one person only as he continues to manipulate 50% of the population for his own greedy and selfish ends. To me this is so transparent that even a child could understand what is happening. They may well have an electoral mandate but this kind of mandate is really not acceptable in any democracy.

Edited May 6, 2012 by ianf

[GentlemanJim]

It must be pointed out that it was the government who 'took to the streets with arms'and only then did the red shirts start to burn things down.

I think you forgot about pouring blood, storming parliament, and storming Thaicom ... and then using grenades and an armed militia. Once they'd done all that, then they burnt things down.

It is true that there were some snipers on both sides before the Army in APCs and battledress took to the streets against a mainly peaceful demonstration. There is no way, you can compare the redshirts actions before that, with the how the army behaved.

I accept that the redshirts were not blameless. Pity, they would have had a very strong case if they had been able to follow the example of the student lead demonstrations in Beijing rather than the example of the army on previous occasions in Bangkok.

Let’s face it, they knew from previous patterns of behaviour that the Army would attack them, and not with water cannons. I am not surprised they armed themselves.

It is plain to see that when an accurate picture cannot be remembered from 2 years ago how History can in fact be re written so that it bears no resemblance to actual events.

The Army had taken a very low key and measured response, then the militia element of the Reds started. Civilians were being shot, by armed reds, grenades were being thrown and RPG's used, not by the Army but by the Reds. Government buildings were stormed and key telecommunications establishments were shut down. Human blood was poured on the streets that had even been taken from Children, and a hospital was stormed and occupied causing the evacuation of hundreds of elderly sick patients, and the hospitals inability to function any further. On the stage, key Red leaders were calling for the murder of soldiers, they were telling the reds to kill the Thai soldiers 'run them over with your trucks, then it is only a traffic crime' stated one loathsome individual who now holds government office!

The protests could have been peaceful, but sadly it was a decision of the red leaders to mix in the armed militia and 'black shirts' with the mainly elderly female crowds. Now why did they do that? The red leaders needed a massacre, and they engineered it. The militia opened fire on the soldiers, having had the red leadership incite the crowd to murder. Grenades were thrown and panic ensued, soldiers were being killed and they had every single right to return fire that day. The blackshirts were firing from positions embedded in the crowds and many witnesses saw the black shirts shooting fellow 'red shirts' first to really get the stampede going. Now this is all prior to the burning of Bangkok.

Please tell me what you would expect to be a defensive or retaliatory measure if the events described above had occurred in London or New York? The truth is it would never have got that far because horse mounted police and riot control police would have hospitalized hundreds of protestors well before hand along with inevitable deaths. the Red Leadership got EXACTLY what they were wanting and had engineered, and that single event has put them in power. As for the Army soldiers, if you had a mob running at you with 9mm handguns, shotguns, rifles, grenades and RPG's what would you do? Would you take a stick to a gunfight? I don't think so. The Army had a duty to protect this nation, the Government, it's people and the Monarchy and with a stampeding mob who for days had been incited on stage by leaders to murder and kill soldiers what would you do as a young soldier with that lot running at you and shooting at you?

Lets be crystal clear on this, it was not a one day event, if anything Abhisit was too soft with the protestors and allowed them to cripple a city for three weeks. If he should have been sacked for anything it was that but NOT for allowing the military to defend the laws and rights of this nation. One day it will all come out in the wash how the red leadership engineered the massacre of its own people in order to sway public opinion.

[mic6ard]

Madam, your idea of democracy sound too much like the opposite, Communism.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

[Crushdepth]

It must be pointed out that it was the government who 'took to the streets with arms'and only then did the red shirts start to burn things down.

I think you forgot about pouring blood, storming parliament, and storming Thaicom ... and then using grenades and an armed militia. Once they'd done all that, then they burnt things down.

It is true that there were some snipers on both sides before the Army in APCs and battledress took to the streets against a mainly peaceful demonstration. There is no way, you can compare the redshirts actions before that, with the how the army behaved.

I accept that the redshirts were not blameless. Pity, they would have had a very strong case if they had been able to follow the example of the student lead demonstrations in Beijing rather than the example of the army on previous occasions in Bangkok.

Let’s face it, they knew from previous patterns of behaviour that the Army would attack them, and not with water cannons. I am not surprised they armed themselves.

Really?

When you use grenades and automatic weapons it is inevitable that you will provoke an armed response from the authorities. That was the whole intent. Then wind up your propaganda machine and blame the government for the bloodshed.

The first attempt of the army to clear out Ratchaprasong was with riot gear only. They were driven off with grenades and automatic weapons. This is a simple fact easily verified, if you weren't here at the time. There's plenty of footage on Youtube if you missed it.

Lets assign blame where it is due. I'm sick of people trying to rewrite history. It scares me how many people believe the propaganda. Do the research, see for yourself. And stop repeating bullshit. Its offensive.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Crushdepth

[koosdeboer]

Something to remember;

From 2Bangkok.com

Three Years Ago: The Forgotten Red Shirt Siege of Bangkok

The 2009 Red Shirt siege of Bangkok, which brought the city to a halt, has been largely overshadowed by the events of 2010 and Puea Thai’s subsequent election win. Without any protester deaths, and with the protest site off-limits to the media and foreign bloggers, there was little international awareness of the events after the collapse of the ASEAN summit in Pattaya.

The 2009 protest was designed to be quick and surgical with small numbers of highly organized men committing acts to shake the resolve of the government.

The overall message was revolution. Thaksin openly cheered on protesters in video linkups, directly calling on people to come out and overthrow the government. Revolutionary decrees were read from the stage such one assuring the populace that any law could be broken in the effort of the people to take back the country.

Besides overrunning the ASEAN summit and causing foreign leaders to flee, the Prime Minister’s car was attacked in Pattaya and later in Bangkok, and hostages were taken and displayed on the Red Shirt stage. The Red Shirt leaders repeatedly emphasized that the people were so angry that they could take out their frustration on any interlopers so foreigners and reporters were warned to stay away from the protest site. This limited international coverage and sympathy for the protest.

Above: Daily News, April 14, 2009 – The Prime Minister’s secretary taken hostage by the Red Shirts

[phiphidon]

I think the main problem was that this election did not quality as 'democratic' - ie: giving people a free and fair choice having run the policies, arguments and a way forward for the nation before the electorate. From the PTP side there were no policies, simply 'bribes' that appealed to the lowest common denominator. And off course those 'bribes' are now proving difficult to pay out because they were not thought-through policies. They were simply spur of the moment ideas that came from the big boss. There was no costing involved and no cost-benefit analysis - they were simply that, BRIBES! When you are offering this to the downtrodden lumpenproletariat in this country, they think that this is what politics is about. Thaksin, as smart as ever, recognised that this was they way to go. It is sad for the misled population who deserve better than this. They need policies that will improve the everyday lives of people such as better treatment at work and a better education system. They need politics that discourages graft, that offer better health services and that give people opportunities for a better life. It will take some time for Thaksin's ill-considered bribes to come to fruition and by the time they do so most of them will be meaningless, or in the case of the Rice Mortgage scheme, highly damaging to the economy. The whole think is typical of the Thai attitude. Everything is done for short-term gain, nothing is done to safeguard the future and at the end of the day this type of scary politics emanates from one person and one person only as he continues to manipulate 50% of the population for his own greedy and selfish ends. To me this is so transparent that even a child could understand what is happening. They may well have an electoral mandate but this kind of mandate is really not acceptable in any democracy.

If we dismiss Abhisits insistence that the PTP's raison d'etre is to Bring Back Thaksin (which he was spouting about at the election address at Ratchaprasong and is still spouting to this very day) the election platforms of both parties were very similar, both being populist and expensive

Chutima Woramontri, an economist at BNP Paribas, said the key policies of Yingluck's party would cost about 264 billion baht ($8.5 billion) - including cutting corporate tax from 30 to 23 percent next year and to 20 percent the year after.

The Democrats have promised to build a high-speed rail network, extend subsidies on diesel, provide free electricity for low-income households and raise farm incomes by 25 percent through subsidies among other policies.

Chutima at BNP said the key Democrat promises would cost about 235 billion baht ($7.6 billion).

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/30/us-thailand-election-economy-idUSTRE75T0SW20110630

[volk666]

On the previous pages people here argued whether Thida is a politician or not and it seemed important at the moment because attaching this label establishes certain boundaries on what she would and wouldn't do.

Would a politician take to arms in his fight for power? Thida would.

Would a politician abide by the laws of the country at least in public? Thida wouldn't.

Her visions for the country evoke images of a totalitarian state rather than democracy as she assumes that only a strong, powerful majority has any legitimacy to rule and voice opinions. Due to her marxist indoctrination she seems incapable of envisioning a pluralist state where ideas are discussed on their merits and not on who proposes them.

Whether her ideas take hold in the long term is anybody's guess, personally I think they won't go anywhere, but it's their short term goal - bringing back Thaksin and giving him back all his billions that is the source of worry.

Thida might be striving for it but I, and I'm sure many others, too, are simply not in the mood for a revolution overturning many of the fundamental principles holding this country together.

There are many arguments that the existing Thai society is not up to the standards of modern civilization but that doesn't mean completely destroying it is the best course of action. Red shirts have demonstrated that they are quite capable of raising it to the ground, that's the easiest part anyway, it's the successful rebuilding that will determine whether it was worth the effort or not.

Americans tried this in Iraq and Afghanistan in the past ten years and failed miserably even with the help of all their Nato allies. What are Thida's capabilities by comparison?

Thida and her ilk have absolutely no idea what it takes to build a country in a fair and just manner. They are just big scale conmen on a quest for power. Trust them at your own risk.

[ginjag]

Hey Mr. Birdpoo, if you lived in a red shirt village, you will then know what was and IS going on. Get out more, mix with the nutters who you love too much, maybe then you will begin to understand more. The reds want an end to military coups because it's the only way they can keep total control. Regarding the poll-about popularity ----2,000-out of 60 million and 20% of provinces  Ha Ha Ha, I live amongst them, and there is unrest regarding, what they havent got AND food prices----This is gospel, reds are grumbling now.

[JVichitt]

An account of events as they took place during the riots

**Previously deleted post edited out of quoted post**

I lived in central Bangkok at the time, and observed the protests often.

They were hostile to residents. They conducted illegal roadblocks and personal searches.

The bullet holes at khaosan road storefronts were often .45, i.e. not standard army gear.

The red shirt leaders wanted violence to escalate, and the army/democratic government used excessive restraint.

They let their people fire off M79 grenades and light firearms. They were commanded by a man who was clearly insane.

Hell, the ~20 people wanted in connection with crimes during the riots mostly have prior arrest warrants with charges ranging from military desertion to traffic violations and hard drug involvement.

Violent riots prompted an appropriate armed response, which was overblown by the red movement.

Use an imodium suppository. You have verbal diarrhea. Nothing solid to say.

Edited May 6, 2012 by metisdead

[h90]

I admit I skipped through her article it was to nonsensical 60% red shirt equals 60% democratic. And it didn't take to many posts and to realize she is clueless. I guess that is why she is a red shirt. Common sense not allowed.

Didn't Karl Marx preach some thing about government for the workers. I don't know but I do know that with out these nefarious evil elites Thailand would be a shambles. They are for sure greedy and for the most part heedless of the workers but they are needed to provide the jobs for the workers.

Look at Cambodia when Pol Pot did away with the elite and every one was supposed to go back to the land and grow rice. Is that the red shirt great plan.

Well the communists in Thailand aren't communists. You can't be a communist and work for bringing Thaksin back, the guy who took most from the low class. And trying to weaken the monarchy which did most for the lower classes. Reducing the tax on profit as the government did isn't communism as well.

That are just a few people who want to have their share of the cake and do it with communist propaganda but don't know much about it and not willing to share their own wealth with the poor.

More Margot Honecker style without the brain

[GentlemanJim]

By the way Birdpooguava

Your last sentence in your post number 132 is sailing extremely close to the wind! It could even land you in jail. Perhaps you may consider asking a mod to delete the last sentence on your behalf !

[ianf]

An account of events as they took place during the riots

**Previously deleted post edited out of quoted post**

I lived in central Bangkok at the time, and observed the protests often.

They were hostile to residents. They conducted illegal roadblocks and personal searches.

The bullet holes at khaosan road storefronts were often .45, i.e. not standard army gear.

The red shirt leaders wanted violence to escalate, and the army/democratic government used excessive restraint.

They let their people fire off M79 grenades and light firearms. They were commanded by a man who was clearly insane.

Hell, the ~20 people wanted in connection with crimes during the riots mostly have prior arrest warrants with charges ranging from military desertion to traffic violations and hard drug involvement.

Violent riots prompted an appropriate armed response, which was overblown by the red movement.

Use an imodium suppository. You have verbal diarrhea. Nothing solid to say.

Off course they wanted the violence to escalate and they used every tactic, including turning down the Government's offer of an earlier election, because violence, mayhem and death were part of the game plan. They knew, or rather their leader knew, that they could turn deaths and violence to their ultimate advantage because of Thaksin's skills at manipulating the media through his interational PR advisors. Believe me, they knew exactly what they were doing. They came to the city armed. They asked their supporters to bring empty bottles (for molotov cocktails) and they made increasingly violent speeches from their stages which can still be seen on You Tube. The evidence is there. Yes, the overwhelming evidence runs against the red shirts and their leaders. And when Mr BirdPoo and some of the others come on this board supporting these people, I am astounded that they cannot see through the lies and manipulations and I can only think that there is another substantial reason for their supporting rhetoric. I cannot stand liars, I cannot stand thieves, I cannot stand murderers and I cannot stand people in power who run roughshod over the working masses as we have seen with the red shirt experience. I am proud for my support for those who support decency as opposed to those who support Thaksin and his motley crew and I feel genuinely sorry for the red shirt masses who have been duped and are only being used as cannon fodder for the Shinawatras and their wealthy elite supporters (ie people such as Chinese billionnaires in Chiang Mai).

Edited May 6, 2012 by metisdead

[birdpooguava]

Hey Mr. Birdpoo, if you lived in a red shirt village, you will then know what was and IS going on. Get out more, mix with the nutters who you love too much, maybe then you will begin to understand more. The reds want an end to military coups because it's the only way they can keep total control. Regarding the poll-about popularity ----2,000-out of 60 million and 20% of provinces Ha Ha Ha, I live amongst them, and there is unrest regarding, what they havent got AND food prices----This is gospel, reds are grumbling now.

Who says I don't Mr. Isaan

[GentlemanJim]

Hey Mr. Birdpoo, if you lived in a red shirt village, you will then know what was and IS going on. Get out more, mix with the nutters who you love too much, maybe then you will begin to understand more. The reds want an end to military coups because it's the only way they can keep total control. Regarding the poll-about popularity ----2,000-out of 60 million and 20% of provinces Ha Ha Ha, I live amongst them, and there is unrest regarding, what they havent got AND food prices----This is gospel, reds are grumbling now.

Who says I don't Mr. Isaan

Well if you do it would account for the brainwashing, although some people such as ginjag seem to be able to resist it.

[h90]

Off course they wanted the violence to escalate and they used every tactic, including turning down the Government's offer of an earer election, because violence, mayhem and death were part of the game plan. They knew, or rather their leader knew that they could turn deats and violence to their advantage because of Thaksin's skills at maipulating the media through is PR advisors. believe me, they knew exactly what they were doing. The overwhelming evidence runs against the red shirts and their leaders.

And don't forget the year before when Thaksin tried to have violence and military close to him should stage a coup.

Still Abhisit is to blame that he stepped with his full weight in that trap. It was complete obvious......and all what will happen was said before in ASTV. Like them or hate them, but as PM he should have someone who watches every channel.

I know some letters the Abhisit government sent to Germany as well some letters in the crises with the prince airplane. And it was clear that the people around Abhisit either have no brain at all or let him deliberate run in the knife.

[hellodolly]

I admit I skipped through her article it was to nonsensical 60% red shirt equals 60% democratic. And it didn't take to many posts and to realize she is clueless. I guess that is why she is a red shirt. Common sense not allowed.

Didn't Karl Marx preach some thing about government for the workers. I don't know but I do know that with out these nefarious evil elites Thailand would be a shambles. They are for sure greedy and for the most part heedless of the workers but they are needed to provide the jobs for the workers.

Look at Cambodia when Pol Pot did away with the elite and every one was supposed to go back to the land and grow rice. Is that the red shirt great plan.

Well the communists in Thailand aren't communists. You can't be a communist and work for bringing Thaksin back, the guy who took most from the low class. And trying to weaken the monarchy which did most for the lower classes. Reducing the tax on profit as the government did isn't communism as well.

That are just a few people who want to have their share of the cake and do it with communist propaganda but don't know much about it and not willing to share their own wealth with the poor.

More Margot Honecker style without the brain

Didn't in any way mean that the communism in Thailand is like the Karl Marx idea of communism

If you look at what they say they are. I was looking at what they say. Not how they act. No comparison in between their actions.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

[hellodolly]

On the previous pages people here argued whether Thida is a politician or not and it seemed important at the moment because attaching this label establishes certain boundaries on what she would and wouldn't do.

Would a politician take to arms in his fight for power? Thida would.

Would a politician abide by the laws of the country at least in public? Thida wouldn't.

Her visions for the country evoke images of a totalitarian state rather than democracy as she assumes that only a strong, powerful majority has any legitimacy to rule and voice opinions. Due to her marxist indoctrination she seems incapable of envisioning a pluralist state where ideas are discussed on their merits and not on who proposes them.

Whether her ideas take hold in the long term is anybody's guess, personally I think they won't go anywhere, but it's their short term goal - bringing back Thaksin and giving him back all his billions that is the source of worry.

Thida might be striving for it but I, and I'm sure many others, too, are simply not in the mood for a revolution overturning many of the fundamental principles holding this country together.

There are many arguments that the existing Thai society is not up to the standards of modern civilization but that doesn't mean completely destroying it is the best course of action. Red shirts have demonstrated that they are quite capable of raising it to the ground, that's the easiest part anyway, it's the successful rebuilding that will determine whether it was worth the effort or not.

Americans tried this in Iraq and Afghanistan in the past ten years and failed miserably even with the help of all their Nato allies. What are Thida's capabilities by comparison?

Thida and her ilk have absolutely no idea what it takes to build a country in a fair and just manner. They are just big scale conmen on a quest for power. Trust them at your own risk.

True there are many arguments that Thailand is not up to the standards of modern civilization. And I for one am happy they aren't.

I look around me and see countries up to the standards of modern civilization invading other countries where they have some thing to gain and completely ignoring other countries that have armed rebel groups constantly killing honest citizens because they can gain nothing from them. Then there are the ones who are broke constantly begging other countries to bail them out.

I am not happy with some of the things I see here in Thailand but they pale compared to some of those so called modern civilized countries,

That is not a blanket statement against all countries some are in my opinion very civilized.

[metisdead]

Some posts and replies have been removed as the following forum rule was breached:

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation, comments and discussion of either a political or personal nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

[Jim walker]

They only tinker around the edges of democracy in Thailand because the Privy Council controls the government / military at the end of the day, once the citizens of Thailand get freedom of speech and freedom of the media then Thailand will slowly begin to get democracy, and conceivably be able to keep the powerful military in check and prevent any more military coups.

And we have to remember when Abhisit was in power Thailand shot up the global corruption table thanks to him and his dishonest corrupt cronies’ time we had an honest chap like Thaksin back so we can cut the corruption back down to acceptable levels with only one person with his hand in the honey jar.

[JVichitt]

Except Thaksin will never allow free speech. He can't stand criticism, and reacts by suing newspapers and individuals for libel. Things won't get any better with another despot in Thailand. Thaksin will only continue the cycle of abuse of power and censorship evident in his creation of the ministry of culture and the installment of relatives in high-ranking military and police positions ahead of people in line for said positions. Thaksin is only part of the huge network of family and friends who already own/control a sizable portion of businesses and national resources.

Don't think that things will get any better with this regime.

[Buchholz]

It must be pointed out that it was the government who 'took to the streets with arms'and only then did the red shirts start to burn things down.

I think you forgot about pouring blood, storming parliament, and storming Thaicom ... and then using grenades and an armed militia. Once they'd done all that, then they burnt things down.

And multiple other events that go back even further..... to the beginning of first street violence by either color...initiated in July 2007.

.

[volk666]

True there are many arguments that Thailand is not up to the standards of modern civilization. And I for one am happy they aren't.

I look around me and see countries up to the standards of modern civilization invading other countries where they have some thing to gain and completely ignoring other countries that have armed rebel groups constantly killing honest citizens because they can gain nothing from them. Then there are the ones who are broke constantly begging other countries to bail them out.

I am not happy with some of the things I see here in Thailand but they pale compared to some of those so called modern civilized countries,

That is not a blanket statement against all countries some are in my opinion very civilized.

Well, this is one of the reasons I have a knee jerk reaction when someone starts expounding on the virtues of democracy and vows to fight the enemies of freedom. Perhaps Thida is not as dangerous as I think and I would comfortably survive whatever revolution she inflicts on this society and I won't be the first against the wall when the said revolution comes but still, in the interest of truth and fairness, people should beware communists bringing gifts.

Those who cheer her up have no interest in what happens to her enemies when she grabs the power and, judging by the parallel thread, it would be illegal and outright dangerous to compare Thaksin to Hitler, not to mention social sanction on the individuals daring to question the Dear Leader.

It would be kind of interesting to see how this one plays out, I haven't seen much brown-nosing and ar*e kissing for years now and the reds who will pay for all this grandeur when the bill comes will do so willingly, so who am I to judge? Let them eat "cake".