2 Studio Condos For Rent/sale Jomtien Beach

[ericg1953]

I have just finished a complete renovation on 2 studios ,side by side in jomtien beach. These units have never been lived in and evrything is done to very high standards. Full teakwood custom made kitchen,recessed halogen lighting,american style bathroom w/big shower and everything else you would need to be comfortable.They are right on jomtien beach on the 14th floor. There are 2 huge swimming pools, a 3 minute walk to the beach and many restaurants,laundry,maid service, fitness center etc... These buildings are maintained spotlessly and the maintenance staff here is second to none. The condos are in Jomtien Beach Condominium and there is baht bus service 24 hrs and security is everywhere and very good.There are stores here,barber,massage,pubs and all the amenities needed. The units have balconies, are in a foreign name and will rent for a long term at 8,000 bht a month or sale at 1.25 million. These condos are far better than view talay in my opinion as the swimming pools and grounds are much nicer, the beach location is better and the prices here are much less and you get a much better value for your money.Feel free to call me

Eric

06-111-4136

[Chopper]

I have just finished a complete renovation on 2 studios ,side by side in jomtien beach. These units have never been lived in and evrything is done to very high standards. Full teakwood custom made kitchen,recessed halogen lighting,american style bathroom w/big shower and everything else you would need to be comfortable.They are right on jomtien beach on the 14th floor. There are 2 huge swimming pools, a 3 minute walk to the beach and many restaurants,laundry,maid service, fitness center etc... These buildings are maintained spotlessly and the maintenance staff here is second to none. The condos are in Jomtien Beach Condominium and there is baht bus service 24 hrs and security is everywhere and very good.There are stores here,barber,massage,pubs and all the amenities needed. The units have balconies, are in a foreign name and will rent for a long term at 8,000 bht a month or sale at 1.25 million. These condos are far better than view talay in my opinion as the swimming pools and grounds are much nicer, the beach location is better and the prices here are much less and you get a much better value for your money.Feel free to call me

Eric

06-111-4136

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eric what sq./m are the units? The rental price seems quite low comparative to the asking price. Is this a typical ROI in Jomtien Beach Condominium?

[bino]

Which building / complex are they in??

[Chopper]

Which building / complex are they in??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jomtien Beach Condominium as mentioned by the OP and also by me above. A visit to the opticians may be due...

[lou62]

Hello Eric,

are your units in building S1 or S2? and do they face Pattaya Park or Na Jomtien ?

regards, Lou.

[tavarich]

I have just finished a complete renovation on 2 studios ,side by side in jomtien beach. These units have never been lived in and evrything is done to very high standards. Full teakwood custom made kitchen,recessed halogen lighting,american style bathroom w/big shower and everything else you would need to be comfortable.They are right on jomtien beach on the 14th floor. There are 2 huge swimming pools, a 3 minute walk to the beach and many restaurants,laundry,maid service, fitness center etc... These buildings are maintained spotlessly and the maintenance staff here is second to none. The condos are in Jomtien Beach Condominium and there is baht bus service 24 hrs and security is everywhere and very good.There are stores here,barber,massage,pubs and all the amenities needed. The units have balconies, are in a foreign name and will rent for a long term at 8,000 bht a month or sale at 1.25 million. These condos are far better than view talay in my opinion as the swimming pools and grounds are much nicer, the beach location is better and the prices here are much less and you get a much better value for your money.Feel free to call me

Eric

06-111-4136

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not to familiar with that area. would you know the names of any of the private elementary schools. I have wanted to get a condo in that area for sometime

[Noel]

Eric what sq./m are the units? The rental price seems quite low comparative to the asking price. Is this a typical ROI in Jomtien Beach Condominium?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you Chopper, the rental:purchase price ratio is way out of line with the general market.

I wonder why?

[ericg1953]

Are you saying the rent is too cheap? I was able to buy these units without an agent and my thai family has built many luxury custom houses here for many years and they supplied all the material resources as well as good skilled subcontractors at very reasonble prices. The reason the rent is below market is that I am looking for a tenant who lives here forever. I have a lot of working people in my condo bldg and they will make good tenants too. I am more interested in getting a good quality person than I am the few thousand extra baht,

[Nuff Said]

Are you saying the rent is too cheap? I was able to buy these units without an agent and my thai family has built many luxury custom houses here for many years and they supplied all the material resources as well as good skilled subcontractors at very reasonble prices. The reason the rent is below market is that I am looking for a tenant who lives here forever. I have a lot of working people in my condo bldg and they will make good tenants too. I am more interested in getting a good  quality person than I am the few thousand extra baht,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I totally agree. Long term (12 month) tenants, preferably those who are retired and here to stay, are far more likely to take good care of the room than someone who is here for little more than an extended vacation.

Regarding the relation between sale prices and rental values, once upon a time the monthly rental of a property was about 1% of it's market valuation, but the recent surge in property prices seems to have left rents lagging somewhat behind.

[Noel]

Of course the ideal tenant would be a retiree on an evergreen 12 month contract, but lowering the rent below market levels does not necessarily attract such a person.

It might even put a prospective tenant off as they will no doubt be comparing prices and presume there is a reason for the differential.

That said, good luck to the OP anyway.

[Artisan]

Eric, please can you tell me which building in Jomtien Beach Condominium?

Thank you.

[Artisan]

I have just finished a complete renovation on 2 studios ,side by side in jomtien beach. These units have never been lived in and evrything is done to very high standards. Full teakwood custom made kitchen,recessed halogen lighting,american style bathroom w/big shower and everything else you would need to be comfortable.They are right on jomtien beach on the 14th floor. There are 2 huge swimming pools, a 3 minute walk to the beach and many restaurants,laundry,maid service, fitness center etc... These buildings are maintained spotlessly and the maintenance staff here is second to none. The condos are in Jomtien Beach Condominium and there is baht bus service 24 hrs and security is everywhere and very good.There are stores here,barber,massage,pubs and all the amenities needed. The units have balconies, are in a foreign name and will rent for a long term at 8,000 bht a month or sale at 1.25 million. These condos are far better than view talay in my opinion as the swimming pools and grounds are much nicer, the beach location is better and the prices here are much less and you get a much better value for your money.Feel free to call me

Eric

06-111-4136

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not to familiar with that area. would you know the names of any of the private elementary schools. I have wanted to get a condo in that area for sometime

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bhurapa School, which is in the soi opposite Big C on the Sukhumvit Road is the most convenient (and probably the most appropriate) for you. It's curriculum is bilingual (English and Thai) and will admit students from 3 years old up to 16 years old.

[CGW]

Not sure where the calculations are coming from?

I would guess that "1953" wouln't have paid any more than half a Million for these

properties, and his price would be based on what he has in them?

A 4 Million baht basic house generally rents for around 30k.

Pattaya not on that much of a roll

I would have thought 8k quite reasonable.

Cheers

[billrussell]

I just rented one from Eric sight unseen. Seems like a O.K. guy, and my Tilac and me are looking forward to moving in the first of February.

He has been very helpful in arranging a telephone line, DSL etc. and so far I am very pleased with him. He has offered to introduce my Tilac to other Thai ladies which will be a big help, as she does not know anybody there.

Thanks Eric

[johnnyk]

Not sure where the calculations are coming from?

I would guess that "1953" wouln't have paid any more than half a Million for these

properties, and his price would be based on what he has in them?

A 4 Million baht basic house generally rents for around 30k.

Pattaya not on that much of a roll

I would have thought 8k quite reasonable.

Cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you could be right. 8K a month is 100K a year and if he paid 5-600K for a unit then that's a real fat return. If he paid 1 million its a 9.6% return and close to net as the tenant will pay utils etc.

[Noel]

Not sure where the calculations are coming from?

I would guess that "1953" wouln't have paid any more than half a Million for these

properties, and his price would be based on what he has in them?

A 4 Million baht basic house generally rents for around 30k.

Pattaya not on that much of a roll

I would have thought 8k quite reasonable.

Cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you could be right. 8K a month is 100K a year and if he paid 5-600K for a unit then that's a real fat return. If he paid 1 million its a 9.6% return and close to net as the tenant will pay utils etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really do not see the point of trying to guess what the OP paid for the units as there is no relevance. What matters is how much the capital value is now and the current level of market rental rates.

The above rate of return calculations also assume 100% occupancy which is unrealistic.

Just having had a quick search of local agents, the first one I came across was Fair Properties, probably the most active agency in the Jomtien area:

CR2454 : Studio for Rent : Jomtien Beach Condo (30 Sq.m) on the 4th floor. Bedroom, bathroom, Cable TV, carpeted floor, Air conditioned, balcony, 500M from Jomtien beach.

Priced at 12,000 Baht per month

CR2444 : Studio for Rent : Jomtien Beach Condo (37 Sq.m) on the 14th floor. Bedroom, bathroom, European kitchen, Cable TV, DVD, tiled floor, Air conditioned, balcony, 500M from Jomtien beach, sea view.

Priced at 15,000 Baht per month

The above make 8,000 Baht per month look way below current market levels on the face of it.

[johnnyk]

Not sure where the calculations are coming from?

I would guess that "1953" wouln't have paid any more than half a Million for these

properties, and his price would be based on what he has in them?

A 4 Million baht basic house generally rents for around 30k.

Pattaya not on that much of a roll

I would have thought 8k quite reasonable.

Cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you could be right. 8K a month is 100K a year and if he paid 5-600K for a unit then that's a real fat return. If he paid 1 million its a 9.6% return and close to net as the tenant will pay utils etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really do not see the point of trying to guess what the OP paid for the units as there is no relevance. What matters is how much the capital value is now and the current level of market rental rates.

The above rate of return calculations also assume 100% occupancy which is unrealistic.

Just having had a quick search of local agents, the first one I came across was Fair Properties, probably the most active agency in the Jomtien area:

CR2454 : Studio for Rent : Jomtien Beach Condo (30 Sq.m) on the 4th floor. Bedroom, bathroom, Cable TV, carpeted floor, Air conditioned, balcony, 500M from Jomtien beach.

Priced at 12,000 Baht per month

CR2444 : Studio for Rent : Jomtien Beach Condo (37 Sq.m) on the 14th floor. Bedroom, bathroom, European kitchen, Cable TV, DVD, tiled floor, Air conditioned, balcony, 500M from Jomtien beach, sea view.

Priced at 15,000 Baht per month

The above make 8,000 Baht per month look way below current market levels on the face of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Remember though, he said he wanted good tenants for long stays so that mitigates the vacancy problem, and he's renting them himself so no agency fees to pay.

The point was in trying to figure out how he is able to charge what seem to be lower-than-market rents.

[Noel]

Remember though, he said he wanted good tenants for long stays so that mitigates the vacancy problem, and he's renting them himself so no agency fees to pay.

The point was in trying to figure out how he is able to charge what seem to be lower-than-market rents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In my view offering too low a rent has no bearing on attracting a good tenant.

It could in fact have the opposite effect.

Offering a reduction for longer lets is common practice, but anything more than 10% below market levels would strike me as strange.

Btw, yes he is renting them out himself and therefore has no agency fees to pay; that applies at whatever the level of rent he sets.

[billrussell]

Not sure where the calculations are coming from?

I would guess that "1953" wouln't have paid any more than half a Million for these

properties, and his price would be based on what he has in them?

A 4 Million baht basic house generally rents for around 30k.

Pattaya not on that much of a roll

I would have thought 8k quite reasonable.

Cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you could be right. 8K a month is 100K a year and if he paid 5-600K for a unit then that's a real fat return. If he paid 1 million its a 9.6% return and close to net as the tenant will pay utils etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't care what he paid for my unit. That is his business. All I car about is that the place is as advertised, any problems fixed promptly, and If I decide to buy the unit from him, is the price fair compared tot he current market?

What he paid does not enter into the equation.

[Artisan]

Discussing and speculating about what the owner has paid for these properties, and how much rent they should attract, is completely pointless and superfluous.

The long-term return on the capital outlay and the rent charged (with or without utilities) are governed by two things :

1) The growth or decline in the local property market.

2) The rent charged by owners of similar properties in the same location.

The second point is the all-important one. How much rent would somebody have to pay for a similar property? The going rate at this condominium is between 5,000 and 6,500 per month for a single unit depending on the floor, the fittings and the furniture. For a double unit ( two singles made into a larger apartment) the typical rent is 15,000 to 18,000 per month.

Never, use any agency to buy or rent a condo. For example, I know a schoolteacher who had a tastefully decorated and furnished single unit on the 14th floor of this condo complex. For a private sale he would have accepted 650,000 but, during the school holidays, he returned to the UK and lodged the sale of his condo with a local agency in Jomtien. The price advertised was 950,000 baht. !!!!!!

Better to have a look around the local shops, restaurants, minimarts within the condo as they all act as sales points for units in condos, car rent, taxis.

[CGW]

Myself, I would be renting based on the money I had in the property?

The "Norm's" of renting etc hardly apply in Pattaya, Thailand has just come out of 10 years + - of negative growth on property due to the "crisis" in 97 that was set off by the over speculation in property

A lot of the properties up for rent, the owner in most cases would prefer to sell. Renting is a last resort as their property has been on the market so long?

Until very recently it was a "buyers" market for renters.

Cheers

[gharknes]

Not sure where the calculations are coming from?

I would guess that "1953" wouln't have paid any more than half a Million for these

properties, and his price would be based on what he has in them?

A 4 Million baht basic house generally rents for around 30k.

Pattaya not on that much of a roll

I would have thought 8k quite reasonable.

Cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you could be right. 8K a month is 100K a year and if he paid 5-600K for a unit then that's a real fat return. If he paid 1 million its a 9.6% return and close to net as the tenant will pay utils etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really do not see the point of trying to guess what the OP paid for the units as there is no relevance. What matters is how much the capital value is now and the current level of market rental rates.

The above rate of return calculations also assume 100% occupancy which is unrealistic.

Just having had a quick search of local agents, the first one I came across was Fair Properties, probably the most active agency in the Jomtien area:

CR2454 : Studio for Rent : Jomtien Beach Condo (30 Sq.m) on the 4th floor. Bedroom, bathroom, Cable TV, carpeted floor, Air conditioned, balcony, 500M from Jomtien beach.

Priced at 12,000 Baht per month

CR2444 : Studio for Rent : Jomtien Beach Condo (37 Sq.m) on the 14th floor. Bedroom, bathroom, European kitchen, Cable TV, DVD, tiled floor, Air conditioned, balcony, 500M from Jomtien beach, sea view.

Priced at 15,000 Baht per month

The above make 8,000 Baht per month look way below current market levels on the face of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

noel you sound like someone in the renting business or similar interest, renting and property prices are far too high right now, saturation will eventually drive the market down to proper levels not farang rip off levels

[Artisan]

Not sure where the calculations are coming from?

I would guess that "1953" wouln't have paid any more than half a Million for these

properties, and his price would be based on what he has in them?

A 4 Million baht basic house generally rents for around 30k.

Pattaya not on that much of a roll

I would have thought 8k quite reasonable.

Cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you could be right. 8K a month is 100K a year and if he paid 5-600K for a unit then that's a real fat return. If he paid 1 million its a 9.6% return and close to net as the tenant will pay utils etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really do not see the point of trying to guess what the OP paid for the units as there is no relevance. What matters is how much the capital value is now and the current level of market rental rates.

The above rate of return calculations also assume 100% occupancy which is unrealistic.

Just having had a quick search of local agents, the first one I came across was Fair Properties, probably the most active agency in the Jomtien area:

CR2454 : Studio for Rent : Jomtien Beach Condo (30 Sq.m) on the 4th floor. Bedroom, bathroom, Cable TV, carpeted floor, Air conditioned, balcony, 500M from Jomtien beach.

Priced at 12,000 Baht per month

CR2444 : Studio for Rent : Jomtien Beach Condo (37 Sq.m) on the 14th floor. Bedroom, bathroom, European kitchen, Cable TV, DVD, tiled floor, Air conditioned, balcony, 500M from Jomtien beach, sea view.

Priced at 15,000 Baht per month

The above make 8,000 Baht per month look way below current market levels on the face of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

noel you sound like someone in the renting business or similar interest, renting and property prices are far too high right now, saturation will eventually drive the market down to proper levels not farang rip off levels

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These rents are astronomical. Nobody with any sense would pay these prices for renting a 30 sq.m or 37 sq.m. unit in Jomtien Beach Condo. There must be more property agencies than 7 - 11 stores in Pattaya now and it's simply farang property agent ripping off would-be farang buyer/renter. Saturation is just around the corner and most of these agencies are about to feel the pinch.

[Noel]

noel you sound like someone in the renting business or similar interest, renting and property prices are far too high right now, saturation will eventually drive the market down to proper levels not farang rip off levels

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These rents are astronomical. Nobody with any sense would pay these prices for renting a 30 sq.m or 37 sq.m. unit in Jomtien Beach Condo. There must be more property agencies than 7 - 11 stores in Pattaya now and it's simply farang property agent ripping off would-be farang buyer/renter. Saturation is just around the corner and most of these agencies are about to feel the pinch.

Hmmm, rather emotive opinions!

I wonder why…

Whilst I am reasonably familiar with the Pattaya property market, I would never profess to be anything close to an expert qualifying me to make such definitive assertions.

That said, I am always willing to learn from the real experts.

Thanks for the heads up!

[thebounder]

Discussing and speculating about what the owner has paid for these properties, and how much rent they should attract, is completely pointless and superfluous.

The long-term return on the capital outlay and the rent charged (with or without utilities) are governed by two things :

1) The growth or decline in the local property market.

2) The rent charged by owners of similar properties in the same location.

The second point is the all-important one. How much rent would somebody have to pay for a similar property? The going rate at this condominium is between 5,000 and 6,500 per month for a single unit depending on the floor, the fittings and the furniture. For a double unit ( two singles made into a larger apartment) the typical rent is 15,000 to 18,000 per month.

Never, use any agency to buy or rent a condo. For example, I know a schoolteacher who had a tastefully decorated and furnished single unit on the 14th floor of this condo complex. For a private sale he would have accepted 650,000 but, during the school holidays, he returned to the UK and lodged the sale of his condo with a local agency in Jomtien. The price advertised was 950,000 baht. !!!!!!

Better to have a look around the local shops, restaurants, minimarts within the condo as they all act as sales points for units in condos, car rent, taxis.

You shouldn't tar all real estate agents with the same brush. Sure there are some who mark up prices with a view to lining their own pockets, but equally there are others who are professional and honest. Just make sure you use a responsible company with a good name.

[ericg1953]

Guy, It's very interesting to listen to all the broad comments on my condos. 1st of all, I am very happy with the return at 8,000 a month and although none of us has a crystal ball to forecast where property prices will go, I am very happy getting a good long term tenant and riding out this market for a number of years to see where it goes. If the market tanks, I still don't see the rents dropping substantially in the future which is fine with me. I could have easily tried to get 10,000 a month but I ddidn't want to compete w/agents and if I was able to attract many potential tenants ,I would be able to pick and choose who I felt would be a good choice for the long term.Although Jomtien Beach Condo has always been extremely well maintained and has a great beach location as well as 2 huge beautiful pools...1 yr. ago there was not baht bus service available to the door 24/7 like there is now and did not have ADSL like the do now and those are big factors to many people. There are some vey nice retirees here living on fixed pensions and the 8,000 is very affordable to them. Most of these guys have thai wives/girlfriends and don't run around to the bar scene and that was what I was wanting to attract and my plan has worked very well.

Eric

To address another poster....your numbers are way off....There are no condos like mine for rent here at my price. The days of the 5000-6000bht prices are long gone. I have many friends here and yes some pay 6500-7500 but there condos are all 10 yr old, very original, with no kithens inside..basically a box w/tv and microwave. I have fitted out my condos with nothing spared, even expensive furniture from Index. I have put in American style big stall showers, new aircon,custom made teakwood kitchen w/glass cupboards w/recessed lighting in the cupboards and recessed halogen lites in the room. Ceiling fan,phone line, new screen doors, new custom made blinds,new tv,fridge microwave. So , if you want a nice home this is it, if you want the cheapest box in town ,it's not for you

[CGW]

I have followed this thread with some interest, and asked some leading questions as will be putting house up for rent in the very near future (When the painters finish!)

If anyone in reading, that fits nicely into "1953" criterea, is looking for a (Unadvertised for rental) Furnished, 3 bed, 3 bath House in East Pattaya in good location, rent 40k, PM me.

Cheers

[Nuff Said]

Not sure where the calculations are coming from?

I would guess that "1953" wouln't have paid any more than half a Million for these

properties, and his price would be based on what he has in them?

A 4 Million baht basic house generally rents for around 30k.

Pattaya not on that much of a roll

I would have thought 8k quite reasonable.

Cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you could be right. 8K a month is 100K a year and if he paid 5-600K for a unit then that's a real fat return. If he paid 1 million its a 9.6% return and close to net as the tenant will pay utils etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really do not see the point of trying to guess what the OP paid for the units as there is no relevance. What matters is how much the capital value is now and the current level of market rental rates.

The above rate of return calculations also assume 100% occupancy which is unrealistic.

Just having had a quick search of local agents, the first one I came across was Fair Properties, probably the most active agency in the Jomtien area:

CR2454 : Studio for Rent : Jomtien Beach Condo (30 Sq.m) on the 4th floor. Bedroom, bathroom, Cable TV, carpeted floor, Air conditioned, balcony, 500M from Jomtien beach.

Priced at 12,000 Baht per month

CR2444 : Studio for Rent : Jomtien Beach Condo (37 Sq.m) on the 14th floor. Bedroom, bathroom, European kitchen, Cable TV, DVD, tiled floor, Air conditioned, balcony, 500M from Jomtien beach, sea view.

Priced at 15,000 Baht per month

The above make 8,000 Baht per month look way below current market levels on the face of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Remember though, he said he wanted good tenants for long stays so that mitigates the vacancy problem, and he's renting them himself so no agency fees to pay.

The point was in trying to figure out how he is able to charge what seem to be lower-than-market rents.

In 2004 I listed, on behalf of the owner, with Fair Properties, a condo for rent. The owner wanted B12000 per month, less agency charges, a fair market price. But when I looked in the window a couple of weeks later it was advertised at B16000. Naturally I asked why my instruction had been ignored, and the reply was to the effect of it gives us something to negotiate with. That may be the case, but no one in their right mind would have ever gone to the trouble of enquiring about a room with such a high price label on it.

So, if you are planning to do business with Fair Properties, be prepared to negotiate.

[Artisan]

In 2004 I listed, on behalf of the owner, with Fair Properties, a condo for rent. The owner wanted B12000 per month, less agency charges, a fair market price. But when I looked in the window a couple of weeks later it was advertised at B16000. Naturally I asked why my instruction had been ignored, and the reply was to the effect of it gives us something to negotiate with. That may be the case, but no one in their right mind would have ever gone to the trouble of enquiring about a room with such a high price label on it.

So, if you are planning to do business with Fair Properties, be prepared to negotiate.

Rather, it gives them something extra to line their greedy pockets with. Why don't these agencies realise that upping the rent to such a ridiculous level discourages people from even entering their offices.

[Nuff Said]

In 2004 I listed, on behalf of the owner, with Fair Properties, a condo for rent. The owner wanted B12000 per month, less agency charges, a fair market price. But when I looked in the window a couple of weeks later it was advertised at B16000. Naturally I asked why my instruction had been ignored, and the reply was to the effect of it gives us something to negotiate with. That may be the case, but no one in their right mind would have ever gone to the trouble of enquiring about a room with such a high price label on it.

So, if you are planning to do business with Fair Properties, be prepared to negotiate.

Rather, it gives them something extra to line their greedy pockets with. Why don't these agencies realise that upping the rent to such a ridiculous level discourages people from even entering their offices.

Yes, fair point. But listing rooms at such high prices allows them to make the punters who do pluck up the courage and walk through the door think that they have got the proverbial something for nothing.