Niyom Panich

[jko]

I've shopped at Niyom Panich on the airport road for years, and never had a problem until a few days ago.

After buying an appliance for Baht 10,000, I handed over my VISA card (issued in Thailand by a major bank) and was promptly asked for my passport. When I explained that I have never been asked for an ID using my card anywhere in Thailand, even in small shops, I was told it was company policy.

After solving that problem, I was subsequently informed there would now be a charge for using my card. I remarked that no large and respected company in Thailand had ever applied this supplement, but there was no flexibility in this - company policy again.

As it happened, I had to return the item for a refund. This was courteously carried out, staff members were pleasant, and the price paid was refunded in full ---that is, all except the credit card charge, which they witheld without explanation.

With credit card payments so much easier anywhere else, I will obviously not be returning to Niyom Panich. That's a pity, as it's a cool, spacious and pleasant place to browse.

One wonders how many customers they must lose because of their company policy.

[Tywais]

I thought it was illegal to add charges to a CC and spelled out in Visa usage policies. I would contact Visa and let them know what's going on. Used to be that 3% was a standard add on but haven't seen that for a long time now.

[CMSteve]

Most banks and merchant services add a nominal percentage to cover their processing costs. Usually a 2.7% charge, quoted at 3% to level out the sellers take. Totally legal.

[Maejo Man]

Siam Electrics have an "Amex welcome here" sign on their windows. On a 20,000 baht purchase they said that will be an extra 5% I asked for the manager and called Amex in front of her and gave her the phone..........The 5% was immediately removed from the charge. Always ask for the manager if you get hit for a percentage, or simply vote with your feet

Edit.... I shop with Amex at Big C and Tesco for general shopping and white goods and never any additional change.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Maejo Man

[eyecatcher]

It is common practice in the uk charge a 3% surcharge for credit cards, and i know only too well, when we swipe someones card the bank charges us the 2.75%...but I would rather have a customer pay by card and lose 20bt than charge them extra.....so they can return again, and it saves them using up their cash.

[nikster]

I thought it was illegal to add charges to a CC and spelled out in Visa usage policies. I would contact Visa and let them know what's going on. Used to be that 3% was a standard add on but haven't seen that for a long time now.

That's how Visa would phrase it. In actuality, Visa policies state that the Merchant can't provide the item cheaper if the customer doesn't use the card.

That's why I like it when they charge 3% extra for using a card: It means their base price doesn't already include those 3%. I'd rather have the choice...

For the refund - that's tough luck indeed. Nyom Panich is in general known for a typical Thai attitude to customer service: Wasteland would be putting it mildly. At least they took it back! In my experience Thailand is similar to Europe with customer service, much worse than the USA which is usually great, or Singapore, which is even better. TiT!

[Genericnic]

Most banks and merchant services add a nominal percentage to cover their processing costs. Usually a 2.7% charge, quoted at 3% to level out the sellers take. Totally legal.

CMSteve,

It may be totally legal (or not), however it is generally a violation of VISA's International Operating Regulations that applies to Visa merchants, with one exception. The only time it is allowed is if, "local law requires that merchants be permitted to engage in such practice." Visa International Operating Regulations Core Principle 6.3, p. 400 (note: This link goes to the pdf file, which is large - click at your own risk) It would be my best guess that Thailand has not put such a law in place. If not, then the merchants are in violation of VISA's regulations and should be reported.

David

[Genericnic]

I thought it was illegal to add charges to a CC and spelled out in Visa usage policies. I would contact Visa and let them know what's going on. Used to be that 3% was a standard add on but haven't seen that for a long time now.

Tywais,

VISA (and MasterCard) will allow a merchant to have a regular price that already includes the 3% and then do a 3% discount for cash. They just don't let merchants have a regular cash price and then add on the 3% surcharge. The merchants don't like the allowable way since it makes their goods look 3% more expensive to everyone when they advertise.

David

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I thought it was illegal to add charges to a CC and spelled out in Visa usage policies. I would contact Visa and let them know what's going on. Used to be that 3% was a standard add on but haven't seen that for a long time now.

Tywais,

VISA (and MasterCard) will allow a merchant to have a regular price that already includes the 3% and then do a 3% discount for cash. They just don't let merchants have a regular cash price and then add on the 3% surcharge. The merchants don't like the allowable way since it makes their goods look 3% more expensive to everyone when they advertise.

Right. And I think they make a lot more sense with that position than the credit card companies do. Why should everyone be overcharged just to accommodate the plastic-money squad?

[tolstoy]

I have always found them to be helpful and friendly. Yes, we find it annoying to pay extra for credit card. I usually pay cash for everything anyway but it is nice to have the option.

However, I will say tha there are some stores that charge extra for cash, which I think is outrageous.

Their repairing section does a good job too, but takes forever.

[nikster]

I thought it was illegal to add charges to a CC and spelled out in Visa usage policies. I would contact Visa and let them know what's going on. Used to be that 3% was a standard add on but haven't seen that for a long time now.

Tywais,

VISA (and MasterCard) will allow a merchant to have a regular price that already includes the 3% and then do a 3% discount for cash. They just don't let merchants have a regular cash price and then add on the 3% surcharge. The merchants don't like the allowable way since it makes their goods look 3% more expensive to everyone when they advertise.

Right. And I think they make a lot more sense with that position than the credit card companies do. Why should everyone be overcharged just to accommodate the plastic-money squad?

Exactly.

Edited May 16, 2012 by nikster

[Dante99]

I thought it was illegal to add charges to a CC and spelled out in Visa usage policies. I would contact Visa and let them know what's going on. Used to be that 3% was a standard add on but haven't seen that for a long time now.

Tywais,

VISA (and MasterCard) will allow a merchant to have a regular price that already includes the 3% and then do a 3% discount for cash. They just don't let merchants have a regular cash price and then add on the 3% surcharge. The merchants don't like the allowable way since it makes their goods look 3% more expensive to everyone when they advertise.

Right. And I think they make a lot more sense with that position than the credit card companies do. Why should everyone be overcharged just to accommodate the plastic-money squad?

Exactly.

So what is the big deal, everyday we are paying in one way or another for numerous cases of the irrationality, mistakes and costs of rules, laws and other people.

Every time you pay a tax you are paying to accommodate someone else.

[Theboy]

Air Asia charged me a fee (out and return !) for using a card

[WinnieTheKhwai]

So what is the big deal, everyday we are paying in one way or another for numerous cases of the irrationality, mistakes and costs of rules, laws and other people.

Every time you pay a tax you are paying to accommodate someone else.

When I pay taxes I pay them to an entity I have a relationship with, in the sense that it brings benefit to me as well as others through the building and maintenance of infrastructure and other things. Also, it's 'the law': I'm under a legal obligation to pay them.

To compare, I don't have a relationship with Visa, Mastercard or Amex, and I don't have any interest in how much money they make. If their CEO gets to buy another Ferrari that's just fine with me, but I don't have an interest in helping him pay for it, and I don't have a legal obligation to indirectly fund an entity that is not providing a product of service to me.

That said, I don't have an issue with them charging people who do use and appreciate their services; that's just business. I do see the attraction of not having to pay for something until the next month; they're financing close to an additional month of income, and there is less cash to carry around: I can understand why that's worth 3% to many people. But then please just charge those people, instead of hiding it in fees to the vendor and then try to strong-arm them into eating the fee, or hiding it in their general pricing.

Edited May 16, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[harrry]

NP has always struck me as one of the easiest places to deal with.

[scorecard]

Well here's a different point about using credit cards in Thailand.

Credit card number theft is rampant in Thailand (and other countries too of course), and It's a regulation of the Bank of Thailand that:

1. Merchants are forbidden to print all of the 16 actual digits on either the customer or merchant slips. XXXX XXXX XXXX 1234 or similar is allowed.

2. Merchants are forbidden to record all the 16 actual digits in any other form of record keeping.

But there are many merchants who ignore the above and their printers still printing all of the 16 actual digits.

Question - where does most CC number theft start?

Answer - merchants staff (source, my local bank manager, very large regional office of the bank).

I've had my VISA card number stolen several times here in Thailand and I can tell you it can be a long and painful experience to get it all corrected.

My local bank manager also says that if your Visa card number is stolen three, or more, times, then Visa see you a possible prime suspect.

[CMX]

Simple enough for me!

If a merchant wants a percent for a credit card and I want the product at that price, I pay cash. And I learn that it's another cash place.

If the merchant doesn't pass through the charge, I use the card = no big deal. (As it happens, I lose nothing obtaining baht as compared to using cards.)

**********

(The notion that paying taxes is never of benefit to me is hard for me to comprehend too. I enjoy using roads that are passable, and having firefighters nearby, and knowing that kids are being schooled in my society - even those whose parents cannot afford it. Police too, are a worthwhile service lots of times. Armies, however... guess it depends.)

Edited May 16, 2012 by CMX

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Credit card number theft is rampant in Thailand (and other countries too of course), and It's a regulation of the Bank of Thailand that:

1. Merchants are forbidden to print all of the 16 actual digits on either the customer or merchant slips. XXXX XXXX XXXX 1234 or similar is allowed.

2. Merchants are forbidden to record all the 16 actual digits in any other form of record keeping.

But there are many merchants who ignore the above and their printers still printing all of the 16 actual digits.

Of just maybe that's entirely preventable through the hardware issued by the credit card company ant its partners? Seems a software issue to me, and one that they can correct if they wanted to.

And in addition, in over half a decade they haven't figured out a security model that requires a little more than the card and 'a signature' .. They security mess (and indeed it is one) is entirely of their own making.

[Mestizo]

Well here's a different point about using credit cards in Thailand.

Credit card number theft is rampant in Thailand (and other countries too of course), and It's a regulation of the Bank of Thailand that:

1. Merchants are forbidden to print all of the 16 actual digits on either the customer or merchant slips. XXXX XXXX XXXX 1234 or similar is allowed.

2. Merchants are forbidden to record all the 16 actual digits in any other form of record keeping.

Interesting information. Would it be possible to point out the source of this information, particularly item #2. My Google skills are failing me.

My guess is that it may be covered under the "The Royal Decree Regulating Electronic Payment Service Business, B.E. (2551)2008", but I am not having any luck turning anything up in English.

I found this: http://www.bot.or.th/Thai/PaymentSystems/OversightOfEmoney/Documents/epay_royal_decree_final.pdf

but its in Thai and I can't read it.

Thanks in Advance,

-Mestizo

[Johpa]

That's how Visa would phrase it. In actuality, Visa policies state that the Merchant can't provide the item cheaper if the customer doesn't use the card.

The consortium, Mastercard and VISA, have different powers in different countries. In the US, where banking is a criminal activity, technically speaking according to the standard Merchant Services Agreement, a merchant can not, amongst other restrictions, charge any extra amount for using a card but a merchant can indeed offer a cash discount. In many other countries the consortium has less power and merchants can and do add fees for card use without violating their merchant agreement. I have a merchant agreement for my business here in the US, but even my neighbors to the north in Canada have a different regulations. I have never read a standard agreement used in Thailand so I can't speak to the specifics of the merchant agreement used in our favorite Kingdom, but overall I have seen less added fees over the past decade than one saw say 20 years ago.

[nikster]

Credit card number theft is rampant in Thailand (and other countries too of course), and It's a regulation of the Bank of Thailand that:

1. Merchants are forbidden to print all of the 16 actual digits on either the customer or merchant slips. XXXX XXXX XXXX 1234 or similar is allowed.

2. Merchants are forbidden to record all the 16 actual digits in any other form of record keeping.

But there are many merchants who ignore the above and their printers still printing all of the 16 actual digits.

Of just maybe that's entirely preventable through the hardware issued by the credit card company ant its partners? Seems a software issue to me, and one that they can correct if they wanted to.

And in addition, in over half a decade they haven't figured out a security model that requires a little more than the card and 'a signature' .. They security mess (and indeed it is one) is entirely of their own making.

I find myself nodding my head in agreement. Visa/MC somehow got a system in place that has pretty much no security. A friend of mine in the US made a point of always putting nonsensical signatures on his visa receipts. Gandalf the grey, the hulk, spider-man, george bush... Was he ever asked any questions at any store? Nope. Never had any trouble paying as mickey mouse, or anything else.

Scorecard you make a good point on why its probably wise to avoid using cards at all in Thailand. Especially the visa debit cards issued by Thai banks. I can only imagine the process to get your money back, if you get it back at all.

In the US its pretty simple, report it and your money is refunded ... but Thailand is not exactly known for customer service, especially when it comes to anyone refunding anything.. I dont know maybe Visa covers this, does anybody know?

On the other hand my Thai card has this very useful feature where it sends me an sms every time the card is used, instantly.

[delboy]

I received good service from Bangkok Bank.

I used their debit card online and the tranaction was rejected. I re-tried 3 more times using slight variations of address to allow for translation errors but these were also rejected.

When I updated my passbook a few days later, I found that the 4 amounts had been deducted from my account. I contacted my branch and completed a claim form and a few days later received an email from Bangkok Bank requesting any proof I had of the transactions.

I replied with screenshots of the transactions I had tried to make, and within days the amounts were refunded in full.

[raro]

Most banks and merchant services add a nominal percentage to cover their processing costs. Usually a 2.7% charge, quoted at 3% to level out the sellers take. Totally legal.

CMSteve,

It may be totally legal (or not), however it is generally a violation of VISA's International Operating Regulations that applies to Visa merchants, with one exception. The only time it is allowed is if, "local law requires that merchants be permitted to engage in such practice." Visa International Operating Regulations Core Principle 6.3, p. 400 (note: This link goes to the pdf file, which is large - click at your own risk) It would be my best guess that Thailand has not put such a law in place. If not, then the merchants are in violation of VISA's regulations and should be reported.

David

You made my day!! This mail just went out to Citibank with a link back to this thread.

Dear Khun xxx,

I was at xxx Co., Ltd. today for a purchase and when trying to pay with my credit card, I was informed that I have to pay 3% extra.

I called immediately the call center and Khun xxx told me I should “renegotiate with the shop”. Not exactly the answer I expected.

Back home I called again in and spoke to Khun xxx who was in defense of the shop, basically saying that they can charge whatever they want. When I asked whether she can provide a standard contract between a Visa Card provider (such as Citibank) and the merchant she asked me to google.

So I did. http://usa.visa.com/...ations-main.pdf

Please have a look at page 400, Core Principle 6.3

###quote###

No Surcharging Unless Required by Law

Charging for the Advertised Price

Visa merchants agree to accept Visa cards for payment of goods or services without charging any

amount over the advertised or normal price as a condition of Visa card acceptance, unless local law

requires that merchants be permitted to engage in such practice.

###unquote###

As Thai law does not require the merchant to surcharge, the shop was apparently in violation of Visa Card’s Core Principles.

When confronting Khun xxx with this, she said that this is between the merchant and their card provider and not really my business.

I like to

1) Formally complain about the advice given by both, Khun xxx and Khun xxx as they were factually wrong.

2) Formally complain about the lack of customer support at Citibank. As your customer I expect that you side with me and not with a merchant who is in breach of contract.

3) Report xxx Co., Ltd. for breaching their agreement with Visa Card

Thanks for your kind attention.

I have published this here on the internet: http://www.thaivisa....8-niyom-panich/

[CMSteve]

It seems Thailand does have some laws that require charges to Visa usages. Here is a quote from page 21 of the same document. This is specifically a notice of a change so we do not have the whole background or extent of this Thai law...

"a variance has been granted to ATM Acquirers in Thailand to allow them to impose an Access fee on domestic ATM Cash Dispursements, as permitted by their local law.

You state "As Thai law does not require the merchant to surcharge, the shop was apparently in violation of Visa Card’s Core Principles." - How did you confirm this?

Also, a little diddy about the greater good. As you can see from the many other posters that prefer not to have to pay 3% when paying with cash just to make the few card users feel as though they are not being overcharged, maybe its in the best interest of the "whole" not to press this issue.

Most banks and merchant services add a nominal percentage to cover their processing costs. Usually a 2.7% charge, quoted at 3% to level out the sellers take. Totally legal.

CMSteve,

It may be totally legal (or not), however it is generally a violation of VISA's International Operating Regulations that applies to Visa merchants, with one exception. The only time it is allowed is if, "local law requires that merchants be permitted to engage in such practice." Visa International Operating Regulations Core Principle 6.3, p. 400 (note: This link goes to the pdf file, which is large - click at your own risk) It would be my best guess that Thailand has not put such a law in place. If not, then the merchants are in violation of VISA's regulations and should be reported.

David

You made my day!! This mail just went out to Citibank with a link back to this thread.

Dear Khun xxx,

I was at xxx Co., Ltd. today for a purchase and when trying to pay with my credit card, I was informed that I have to pay 3% extra.

I called immediately the call center and Khun xxx told me I should “renegotiate with the shop”. Not exactly the answer I expected.

Back home I called again in and spoke to Khun xxx who was in defense of the shop, basically saying that they can charge whatever they want. When I asked whether she can provide a standard contract between a Visa Card provider (such as Citibank) and the merchant she asked me to google.

So I did. http://usa.visa.com/...ations-main.pdf

Please have a look at page 400, Core Principle 6.3

###quote###

No Surcharging Unless Required by Law

Charging for the Advertised Price

Visa merchants agree to accept Visa cards for payment of goods or services without charging any

amount over the advertised or normal price as a condition of Visa card acceptance, unless local law

requires that merchants be permitted to engage in such practice.

###unquote###

As Thai law does not require the merchant to surcharge, the shop was apparently in violation of Visa Card’s Core Principles.

When confronting Khun xxx with this, she said that this is between the merchant and their card provider and not really my business.

I like to

1) Formally complain about the advice given by both, Khun xxx and Khun xxx as they were factually wrong.

2) Formally complain about the lack of customer support at Citibank. As your customer I expect that you side with me and not with a merchant who is in breach of contract.

3) Report xxx Co., Ltd. for breaching their agreement with Visa Card

Thanks for your kind attention.

I have published this here on the internet: http://www.thaivisa....8-niyom-panich/

Edited May 26, 2012 by CMSteve

[naboo]

I was looking at fridges in Nayom Panich yeaterday. Asked the price of one with no tag on it. The guy didn't know and didn't think it might be worthwhile trying to find out.

Had cash in my pocket to buy. I'm not going back.

[raro]

It seems Thailand does have some laws that require charges to Visa usages. Here is a quote from page 21 of the same document. This is specifically a notice of a change so we do not have the whole background or extent of this Thai law...

"a variance has been granted to ATM Acquirers in Thailand to allow them to impose an Access fee on domestic ATM Cash Dispursements, as permitted by their local law.

You state "As Thai law does not require the merchant to surcharge, the shop was apparently in violation of Visa Card’s Core Principles." - How did you confirm this?

Also, a little diddy about the greater good. As you can see from the many other posters that prefer not to have to pay 3% when paying with cash just to make the few card users feel as though they are not being overcharged, maybe its in the best interest of the "whole" not to press this issue.

If the Thai law would "require" the surcharge, then it would happen on every purchase, right?

Thai law "permits" the surcharge, however it is breaching the quoted Core Principle. Further, the "variance granted" is for ATM transactions only.

The 3% surcharge are worked into the price of every product you buy at a shop that accepts credit cards. Paying with a credit card gives you your money's worth. Giving the choice of cash = net price versus credit card = surcharge would actually ruin the credit card business and therefore it cannot be in the interest of the credit card companies to allow this practice.

I prefer credit card payments simply because I hate having large amounts of cash on me.

[CMSteve]

So you are saying you did not/can not confirm your statement?

And yes the specific quote I gave is about ATM usages domestically, as I clearly stated. I also pointed out it was from a notice of changes and does not state the law nor the entirety of its reach.

"If the Thai law would "require" the surcharge, then it would happen on every purchase, right? "

The Visa regulations, as you quoted previously, "No Surcharging Unless Required by Law

Charging for the Advertised Price

Visa merchants agree to accept Visa cards for payment of goods or services without charging any

amount over the advertised or normal price as a condition of Visa card acceptance, unless local law

requires that merchants be permitted to engage in such practice."

Thai Law does not need to require a surcharge, it merely need to require that a merchant has the right to do so, or from the other direction, require Visa to allow the merchant to make the decision.

And yes, I to prefer not to walk around with wads of cash, but have noticed that there are banks of ATM's outside or inside of every major store. - Although, I don't rack up nearly as many points nowadays....

edit: After a few minutes of web surfing a memory hit me pretty hard. I have to agree that using CC's for purchases, especially high baht purchases, is good because of the insurances and guarantees offered by the CC companies. I was one of the 300+ students the CMU dropped and left visa-less. The only way I got my money back was through the CC company that I had paid with. To this day there are many many that not only lost their visa, but did not receive a single baht as a refund.

It seems Thailand does have some laws that require charges to Visa usages. Here is a quote from page 21 of the same document. This is specifically a notice of a change so we do not have the whole background or extent of this Thai law...

"a variance has been granted to ATM Acquirers in Thailand to allow them to impose an Access fee on domestic ATM Cash Dispursements, as permitted by their local law.

You state "As Thai law does not require the merchant to surcharge, the shop was apparently in violation of Visa Card’s Core Principles." - How did you confirm this?

Also, a little diddy about the greater good. As you can see from the many other posters that prefer not to have to pay 3% when paying with cash just to make the few card users feel as though they are not being overcharged, maybe its in the best interest of the "whole" not to press this issue.

If the Thai law would "require" the surcharge, then it would happen on every purchase, right?

Thai law "permits" the surcharge, however it is breaching the quoted Core Principle. Further, the "variance granted" is for ATM transactions only.

The 3% surcharge are worked into the price of every product you buy at a shop that accepts credit cards. Paying with a credit card gives you your money's worth. Giving the choice of cash = net price versus credit card = surcharge would actually ruin the credit card business and therefore it cannot be in the interest of the credit card companies to allow this practice.

I prefer credit card payments simply because I hate having large amounts of cash on me.

Edited May 27, 2012 by CMSteve

[raro]

Any lawyer out there who can give a correct interpretation of the wording?

[scorecard]

Credit card number theft is rampant in Thailand (and other countries too of course), and It's a regulation of the Bank of Thailand that:

1. Merchants are forbidden to print all of the 16 actual digits on either the customer or merchant slips. XXXX XXXX XXXX 1234 or similar is allowed.

2. Merchants are forbidden to record all the 16 actual digits in any other form of record keeping.

But there are many merchants who ignore the above and their printers still printing all of the 16 actual digits.

Of just maybe that's entirely preventable through the hardware issued by the credit card company ant its partners? Seems a software issue to me, and one that they can correct if they wanted to.

And in addition, in over half a decade they haven't figured out a security model that requires a little more than the card and 'a signature' .. They security mess (and indeed it is one) is entirely of their own making.

Yes it's asoftware issue within the card machine at the merchants store. I know this because I was talkin to a friend of my son who had just expanded his shoe shop into a bigger enterprise at a major shopping centre. He also applied to his banks and got approval to have CC card facilities.

He mentioned that a bank employee came to do the initial installation / set-up of the card swip machine and the bank guy explained in details what he was setting up and mentioned that he (his bank) was obliged by law to do some set up work, on the card swipe machine, so that the printer printed XXXX XXXX XXXX 1234 etc., and not all the actual numbers.

[CMSteve]

Just found this and you may be correct. I haven't been able to track ifs its taken effect yet, but take a look. Its a write up about a 2010 draft that was approved. It calls for the removal of surcharges and minimum purchases...

"August 03, 2010 - Bangkok, Thailand - Thai laws on credit card administration are about to change, following a long period of perceived inequitable treatment. BSA Law, a leading corporate legal service in Thailand, is urging businesses that use a credit card to be proactive about supporting the laws.

Apisakde Kongkangwanchoke, partner at BSA Law, says that businesses can help support the change by exercising their rights as credit consumers.

"We're encouraging businesses to keep an eye on this legislation, and vote for the better lenders with their dollar. It will take time for the change to become fully entrenched, but these are important laws and business support for moral lenders will help encourage the change", Mr Kongkangwanchoke said.

The new Thai laws on credit card administration are set to include measures like:

• Capping fees and interest rates for non-bank lenders

• Setting standards regarding interest calculation

• Setting standards for debt collection

• Prohibiting the application of annual fees to credit cards, a measure unique across much of the world

• Removing surcharges and minimum purchase amounts for credit card use in stores

The new Thai laws are yet to be enacted, but the Cabinet approved the Draft Bill on June 23rd. "

Any lawyer out there who can give a correct interpretation of the wording?