Homophobia And Prejudice: It's Time To Kill The Hate: Thai Opinion

[Jingthing]

More seriously, you conveniently (and predictably) ignore my qualifying language later.

Of course we may not all agree with every Thai gay activist (thinking of the strange one in CM) and every goal and tactic, but again, there are some obvious things that shouldn't even be controversial. Such as changing the textbooks.

I didn't ignore it, but as you referred to what "we may not all agree with" the ALL made your qualifier meaningless.

You lost me there. Maybe we speak a different language after all. Edited May 19, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Although others have joined the OP in condemning these textbooks (all junior high-school students are instructed by government-approved textbooks that homosexuality is a kind of sexual deviancy), does anyone actually know what these textbooks are?

I ddin't attend a Thai school so I can't comment myself, but my Partner did and he has no idea what books the OP is talking about.

That's hilarious! Do you remember every detail of textbooks you read in school? Mostly they are forgotten after the test (if that). But that still doesn't make it right to officially teach intolerance, now does it?

Not every detail, but most - it helps if you know your subject.

Since you are pursuing the official teaching of intolerance and these books, and I assume (possibly wrongly) that you know at least what books you are referring to and condemning, maybe you could let the rest of us in on the secret ... or maybe not.

Maybe Thailand IS the best of all possible worlds for both Thai gays!

There are only two?

[LeCharivari]

I would have agreed with your opinion of Peter Tatchell a while ago but I've come to regard him as a bit of hero. He's put himself in harm's way (and been injured)for what he believes in. He's also pretty consistnt in his beliefs which aren't confined to the gay arena. Admittedly he gets up a lot of noses but that's one of the things I like about him. He's sort of a gay George Galloway

"Hero" - that must be the most abused word of the 21st century.

My main problem with him is that he unashamedly distorts the truth to support his views, manufacturing evidence to appeal to the uninformed masses even when better but less photogenic examples are readily available. Iran is a prime case in point (as George Galloway pointed out!).

Edited May 19, 2012 by LeCharivari

[Jingthing]

Maybe Thailand IS the best of all possible worlds for both Thai gays!

There are only two?

No.

The actual post:

Maybe you're right! Maybe Thailand IS the best of all possible worlds for Thai gays!

Edited May 19, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Maybe Thailand IS the best of all possible worlds for both Thai gays!

There are only two?

No.

The actual post:

Maybe you're right! Maybe Thailand IS the best of all possible worlds for Thai gays!

Aah ... the actual edited post makes far more sense, although I can't remember misquoting Dr Pangloss to that effect.

Any news yet on that "one concrete, black and white issue" of the textbooks that you said Thai students were required to read "DEMONIZING" homosexuality?

I spoke briefly to one Thai "junior high-school" teacher (a friend of my Partner, 30's, gay, a teacher of Thai history and culture for 10 years in Loei) and he had no idea what these books could be and he pointed out that there was very little "sex education" type teaching in Thai schools except on human anatomy, the reproductive system, and STD's, and that has mainly been as a result of Mechai's PDA. Teenpath, which was launched in 2003 by the Programme for Appropriate Technology in Health (Path) together with the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Public Health, goes into sexuality, sexual orientation, etc, but as yet it is only applied in a limited number of schools (about 500) and it supports rather than demonizes sexual diversity.

You may be better informed, of course ....

Edited May 19, 2012 by LeCharivari

[Jingthing]

Yes, let's get to the bottom of this textbook issue. Now we're getting somewhere! Oh, not too many Thai people posting here. Never mind!

[LeCharivari]

Yes, let's get to the bottom of this textbook issue. Now we're getting somewhere! Oh, not too many Thai people posting here. Never mind!

But I thought you already knew, which was why you had been so positive and had gone even further than the OP did .... and that this particular "issue" was so "obvious" that "the Thai gay activists deserve our full support"?

If nothing else, thank you for providing a timely example of just why "anyone who fails to question what they support and does so just because of an accident of birth is on very shaky ground indeed."

[LeCharivari]

I would have agreed with your opinion of Peter Tatchell a while ago but I've come to regard him as a bit of hero. He's put himself in harm's way (and been injured)for what he believes in. He's also pretty consistnt in his beliefs which aren't confined to the gay arena. Admittedly he gets up a lot of noses but that's one of the things I like about him. He's sort of a gay George Galloway

"Hero" - that must be the most abused word of the 21st century. ...

Oh no ... I just noticed the most abused phrase - putting yourself "in harm's way".

[Jingthing]

Yes, let's get to the bottom of this textbook issue. Now we're getting somewhere! Oh, not too many Thai people posting here. Never mind!

But I thought you already knew, which was why you had been so positive and had gone even further than the OP did .... and that this particular "issue" was so "obvious" that "the Thai gay activists deserve our full support"?

If nothing else, thank you for providing a timely example of just why "anyone who fails to question what they support and does so just because of an accident of birth is on very shaky ground indeed."

Is this about the textbooks for you or about the men in dresses?

Sorry but you do sometimes come off as oddly overly enthusiastic to go after gay rights activists of ANY nationality. Obviously, they are human, but I don't have any problem supporting (in general) people who are working on fighting homophobia and unfair treatment ... anywhere. Obviously the Thai people must decide for themselves what's worth working on. If you seriously believe that I asserted myself as an expert on the textbook issue, you're wrong, I never did, I OBVIOUSLY took the word of the OP article that the issue is real. I doubt your little anecdotal report "proves" it isn't real. It's most likely a complicated story that Thai gay activists if they're interested should check out before making it a thing. No use protesting something that isn't real if it really isn't real, but I reckon it is at least partly real.

I think same sex marriage in Thailand or whatever the "don't scare the horses" crowd want to call it is of great interest to gay expats though as some of us would be interested in marrying here. So if the Thais go for that, yes I would hope people of good will all over the world show support for that, just as we would for any country, such as Argentina.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

No problem with "activists" of any sort or nationality, just with the fanatics who would stick a dog turd in their button hole without thinking about it as long as it had a fiery cross, rainbow flag etc on it. There's a thin (but clear) line between the two.

Gay marriage, or whatever, in Thailand would be something I'd be very happy with as it would legalise my own relationship here. Not sure where Argentina comes into the equation ...

The book issue? Not "complicated" at all; apparently one of the textbooks used in the old sex-ed programmes had a passing reference to gay relationships as not being "normal", but although the book is still officially a "standard" text it isn't used anymore. Its just a case of making a mountain out of a molehill/storm in a teacup/something out of nothing, etc, rather like the "pattern"of attacks on lesbians. The OP did a great job with conscription, but he seems to be running out of issues as the gay marriage one is already "taken" by other organisations; a pity they can't form one group and concentrate on the big issues.

[Jingthing]

I am so very confident that our resident expert LeCharivari has knowledge of EVERY school in the nation of Thailand so when he tells us the old textbook is "not used anymore" we can take that to the bank!

Somewhat more seriously, do you have a verifiable source for your contention that the book is not used anymore or did some Thai guy tell you that? Like a LINK or something? Anything?

There he goes again in the same hinting at homophobia vein as the infamous men in dresses gay activists meme going on here:

fanatics who would stick a dog turd in their button hole without thinking about it as long as it had a fiery cross, rainbow flag etc on it

Gay men can be homophobic too.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Jingthing

[zulo]

Thanks to a friend at the Ministry of Education, I may be able to help settle the textbook question. This is a link to the core curriculum for "Sukhasuksa" (Health science) as prescribed by the Office of Basic Education Commission.

http://www.mediafire.com/?65o009m3ae163k2

On page 18 (of 70), it says that all Mathayom 1 students must learn, among other things, about "kwam biangben thang phet" (the closest translation would be "sexual deviancy").

On page 59 (of 70), it defines "kwam biangben thang phet" (with "Sexual Abuse" in the bracket!) as "any behavior which is not natural to one's own sex such as attraction to people of the same sex, dressing oneself or behaving like people of the opposite sex."

If someone claims to know a lot about this issue, he should have heard about the controversial O-NET which all Mathayom 6 students must take. It caused an uproar in the media a few months ago. One question was about "Lakkaphet" which is a subtype of "kwam biangben thang phet" as taught in the textbooks.

The question asked:

Which is "Lakkaphet" behavior?

a) Collecting underwear of the opposite sex

Dressing up oneself like the opposite sex

c) Feeling attracted to people of the same sex

d) Publicly exhibiting one's sex organ

e) Voyeurism (of people of the opposite sex) in the toilet

You can find out the answer -- if you can read Thai -- on Manager website

http://www.manager.co.th/qol/viewnews.aspx?NewsID=9550000024752

or on TEENPATH website

http://www.teenpath.net/content.asp?ID=14871#.T7j1Ddz4LzM

[MrRealDeal]

People who oppose what they believe as demonic do not always hate , it;s just thier beliefs ..... liberals are famous for saying lets be tolerant .... until people oppose their views , then it's ..... lets be intolerant of the intolerant just like them but since they are wrong it's ok. ......

[Jingthing]

People who oppose what they believe as demonic do not always hate , it;s just thier beliefs ..... liberals are famous for saying lets be tolerant .... until people oppose their views , then it's ..... lets be intolerant of the intolerant just like them but since they are wrong it's ok. ......

That makes no logical sense. People who are intolerant of minority groups do damage to minority groups.

Let's break this down. Presidential candidate Mr. Romney at the adult age of 18 displayed intolerance of a different gay appearingclassmate by leading a gang forcibly holding him down and cutting off his hair. So what are you saying, the victims of bullying should be tolerant of bullies? Such lies madness!

Edited May 21, 2012 by Jingthing

[MrRealDeal]

Acttually it's you who are lying Romney was 16 during that incident not 18 .................. I did not sugjest being intolerant of the intolerant was right or wrong I said thats what liberals do ... but since you asked .... people should be tolerant of others views and opinoins , and should be intolerant of those ACTIONS that violate the law ...... And you are also exaguarting \ lying when you say he "led the group" ....... Don't put false words in my mouth by saying things I never said and follow with "such lies and madness" ..... thats typical liberal nonsence .... the fact you put a question mark on it is meaningless since you ended with lies and madness ...... You lies and madness comes from a statement YOU made up not from anything I said......... The fact is liberals are intolerant of the views of anyone who they disagree with ..... sensible people are intolerant of voilaters of the law not violaters of opinion ....... conservative people are the same btw and I disagree with them doing it as well ........ Should victims be tolerant of perpetrators ? Obviously not

[LeCharivari]

If someone claims to know a lot about this issue, he should have heard about the controversial O-NET which all Mathayom 6 students must take. ....

I know next to nothing about this particular issue,

zulo

, but even that now seems to be rather more than others who protested it. The exam you referred to (for 17 and 18 year olds!) was actually on 19 February and had some real stunners of questions, particularly in the Health Education paper (yours was # 3):

Q1:

If you are a couple, what is an appropriate behavior according to the Thai tradition?

a) Walking together hand over each other’s shoulders, shopping.

b)Going out together, eating and seeing movies.

c) Putting head on the others’ lap in public.

d) Going to the beach, staying overnight together.

e) Feed each other in restaurants.

Q2:

If you have a sexual urge, what must you do?

a) Call friends to go play football.

b)Talk to your family.

c) Try to sleep.

d) Go out with a friend of the opposite sex.

e) Invite a close friend to see a movie.

The most controversy, I am told, was over Q2, where the present NIETS Director said the correct answer was a), while the former director said it should have been .

The really worrying thing is that they are from Health Education where the scores were the highest (average 60 - 70%); Sciences averaged 20-30%, English 10-20% and Mathematics an amazing 0-10% (pretty hard to score 0 in a multiple choice test with only 5 options ...).

The good news (if you can call it that) is that NIETS (an independent body apparently only answerable to itself, set up by the military Assembly 6 years ago) is so obviously not keeping up with what's actually taught (such as the Teenpath and Chula programmes) and is setting such bizarre questions that their own ability is being questioned.

Edited May 21, 2012 by LeCharivari

[LeCharivari]

Note: my previous post should read that the former director said it should have been " b "

Edited May 21, 2012 by LeCharivari

[LeCharivari]

I am so very confident that our resident expert LeCharivari has knowledge of EVERY school in the nation of Thailand so when he tells us the old textbook is "not used anymore" we can take that to the bank!

Somewhat more seriously, do you have a verifiable source for your contention that the book is not used anymore or did some Thai guy tell you that? Like a LINK or something? Anything? ....

Maybe a little less shouting, JT, and a little more reading and you may have noticed the word "apparently" in the post you refer to and the details of exactly where my information came from in my previous post (sorry, I can't give you his photo or e-mail details).

[Ijustwannateach]

Zulo, thanks for bringing some calm fact to what is becoming an otherwise unfortunately typical catfight, er, thread.

[Jingthing]

Acttually it's you who are lying Romney was 16 during that incident not 18 .................. I did not sugjest being intolerant of the intolerant was right or wrong I said thats what liberals do ... but since you asked .... people should be tolerant of others views and opinoins , and should be intolerant of those ACTIONS that violate the law ...... And you are also exaguarting \ lying when you say he "led the group" ....... Don't put false words in my mouth by saying things I never said and follow with "such lies and madness" ..... thats typical liberal nonsence .... the fact you put a question mark on it is meaningless since you ended with lies and madness ...... You lies and madness comes from a statement YOU made up not from anything I said......... The fact is liberals are intolerant of the views of anyone who they disagree with ..... sensible people are intolerant of voilaters of the law not violaters of opinion ....... conservative people are the same btw and I disagree with them doing it as well ........ Should victims be tolerant of perpetrators ? Obviously not

This demands a response. (You're welcome.)

1. Romney was 18 years old, not 16 years old.

“Romney was 18 – old enough to vote, old enough to serve in the military, and old enough to know not to attack a vulnerable teenager unprovoked,”

http://www.csmonitor...gh-school-video

2. Romney did lead the bullying attack.

The Post story quotes four of Romney’s chums at Michigan’s toney Cranbrook School saying Mitt, then a senior, led a posse of preppies who hunted down the younger John Lauber in 1965, pinned him and hacked at his eccentric haircut. Some classmates said they took part and expressed shame.

http://bostonherald...._eye_for_romney

BTW, Romney did not deny the story. He just said he didn't remember it. Imagine if you at age 18 had led a bully attack of a gay appearing kid and forcibly cut off his hair. Of course he remembers it! (But it's smart of him to deny it, I suppose.)

3. Regarding the statement in context of mine:

So what are you saying, the victims of bullying should be tolerant of bullies? Such lies madness!

NOT Such lies are madness as you misquoted me --

The definition of lies I was obviously using was in the same manner as the famous Shakespeare line:

That way madness lies.

NOT in the sense of lies as telling of falsehoods.

A completely different meaning of the word lies.

I was not saying this poster had lied. But, he had posted falsehoods. Herein fully corrected.

And now we break for a literary moment:

Lear:

"No, I will weep no more. In such a night

To shut me out? Pour on; I will endure.

In such a night as this? O Regan, Goneril!

Your old kind father, whose frank heart gave all—

O, that way madness lies; let me shun that;

No more of that."

The Bard

Edited May 24, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

I thought that this particular thread was about Homophobia and Prejudice IN THAILAND. I accept that this sub-forum is world-wide but would it be possible for threads which are specifically about THAILAND to be kept about THAILAND rather than diverted to the inevitable and rather tedious (for some of us) subject of American politics?

[Jingthing]

You're right, the thread went off topic. However, I did feel that the falsehoods which were posted about the Romney bullying the gay boy incident deserved a rebuttal.

That said, the rather philosophical question: is it intolerance to be intolerant of intolerance (where this offshoot started) is kind of interesting and could be applied to any country, including Thailand's situation for it's gay people.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Jingthing