Bangkok: Huge Turnout Expected At Red-Shirt Rally Today

[nurofiend]

aw that's lousy, laughing at whybother debating the figures with me, i thought ye were comrades.

provide a better way to source annual tourist numbers for thailand then

"anyway, dragging the 600-post megalithic thread off in yet another direction." *can't be aimed at me*

"but by all means, please continue" *he says as he hits the report button*

[scorecard]

To mr. nickn.....

You mention 'baseless speculation'. You might like to remember that in most countries in the world (maybe all) the law allows for prosecution on the basis of 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

This premise can be applied to many things and I suspect that there's a healthy number of folks who have, for themselves, defined the paymasters role very clearly based on 'beyond reasonable doubt', and more.

IMHO there are plenty of incidents, plenty of speeches etc., from the paymaster, plus plenty of other 'items' which can contribute to a 'beyond reasonable doubt' opinion that the paymaster is/was the mastermind.

You of course, mr.nickn ... would try to take a stance that your writings etc., are all based on fact.

We all have personal bias, it's basically impossible to escape, and I cannot accept that your writings have no content which is either your opinion and/or based on your personal bias.

Lastly, you are of course fully entitled to have your opinion, and I am entitled to have mine, we disagree, that's healthy.

Edited May 25, 2012 by scorecard

[somtumlion]

We all have personal bias, it's basically impossible to escape, and I cannot accept that your writings have no content which is either your opinion and/or based on your personal bias.

It's not bias, is just what he chooses to be informed about. lol

[nurofiend]

We all have personal bias, it's basically impossible to escape, and I cannot accept that your writings have no content which is either your opinion and/or based on your personal bias.

It's not bias, is just what he chooses to be informed about. lol

long time listener, first time caller?

[thaihome]

... Giles is not a journalist, he's an academic, and a progressive Red Shirt activist - a completely different matter.

Actually Giles is a avowed communist though he claims to "come from a different tradition to the communist parties that people know about". He stated such last year in an interview with Mark Teufel

Mark Teufel interviews Ji Ungpakorn

Yes, sure... As far as Marxists like me are concerned, there are two kinds of Marxism or Socialism, if you like. One is what we call “Socialism from above” imposed either by Stalinist regimes like those that used to exist in Eastern Europe or Russia or China, or even a kind of socialism that ... is claimed by a few Members of Parliament in a capitalist parliamentary democracy. That’s what we would call “Socialism from above,” but as Marxists we would argue that, really, Socialism has to be the act of the majority of ordinary working people. So we are in favour of “Socialism from below.” I am a Trotskyist, because Trotsky had a consistent opposition to Stalinism and the dictatorship that occurred around the communist world. I come from a different tradition to the communist parties that people know about, really.

Instead of coming out and saying he is a radical Marxist red shirt activist, you try and portray him a just progressive, giving the impression he is just in opposition to conservative or reactionary ideologies when in fact he is a lot more than that.

TH

[scorecard]

Good for them

Get them off their farms and out of their red villages.

Also, the 500 - 1000 baht they are surely being paid

to attend will help them put food on the table tomorrow.

Not sure how the will pay to feed themselves the day

after though.

Memorial is good, just too bad they still do not realize

their leaders led them in a slaughter, IMO

You are claiming they are being paid. Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

I believe you still don't get it. There is a core demographic that supports the UDD, the same way there is a core group that supports Newin or Abhisit.

And there is little doubt, IMHO, that there is a sizeable number who have been hoodwinked by a highly manipulatives well funded smokescreen.

However I do agree, g'kid, that amongst the reds / udd there must be a few folks who genuinly want to generate change and are capable of participating in logical, calm, and structured debate etc, etc, but it's very obvious they haven't been allowed to contribute to such debate.

There's another thread today about a red guy who has criticized the paymaster and is becoming more and more vocal on this point, and he offers some logic.

In fact the main stream red / udd leaders have never made any attempt to generate structured debate, nor have they taken part in any structured debate. And the red / udd rank and file have (deliberately) not been encouraged / allowed to contibute to such debate.

In reality, the red / udd leaders in terms of 'debate' have focused on hate campaigns, not structured debate.

Such a pity that those who could generate and contribute to a structured debate haven't yet found a vehicle for their specific voice.

But their day will come when they can and do organize and contribute to logical, calm, and structured debate which generates solid objectives and specific policies to reduce the gap, gain equal justice, and gain a better quality of life for a big % of the Thai population, and the sooner the better, and far removed from violence and manipulative and immoral greed merchants.

In fact, this is bound to happen, it will follow the history of many nations, when a large percentage of the populace become better educated, better imformed, and more worldly, and stand up and are listened to because their discussion has logic and is moral.

It will happen, but unfortunately not tomorrow.

[phiphidon]

Are you kidding me "PP" ?! You just felt compelled to retort with something even if it was as banal as that, scoffing at me because my life has been destroyed because of that jerk Thaksin. Of course it's personal! What about this entire epic catastrophe to Thailand hasn't been personal to each and every person who lives here? All of our lives have been thrown into a tailspin because of him. Hmmm... I wonder if it was personal to any of the rally attendees? I beg you to go ask every single one who went if they were there for personal reasons! Geez... If you can't add something intelligent to the point, please don't say anything at all.

May I ask what specifically caused the problems with your business that can be attributed to Taksin etc?. Genuine question.

Genuine answer: The Red Tshirt Gang, ( A Shinawatra wholly owned entity) by their malicious and intimidating ways (as well as the Yellow TShirts, but by a far miniscule lesser degree) have driven the tourist away from this country, thereby mortally crippling my business which is 85% reliant on tourism. Now what else about simple business in Thailand don't you understand and I need to clarify further? All of you arrogant <deleted>**s make me ill. You have bank accounts to float on while you judge from your easy chair what should and shouldn't be in a land you come to nest in. I dare you to get out there and try to make a decent living in the midst of this Shinawatra born muck and tell me how great the imposter and greedy bastard is... and you would just as soon spit on him as I would.

I would have thought more tourists would be put off coming to Thailand if they read some of the threads on this forum. You seem to have a dismissive view of retirees who presumably have worked hard enough at their businesses to allow them to live here without working for a living - they can't all be trust fund recipients. I cannot see why you blame them for your problems at running a business along with of course "Thaksin and his red T shirt gang"

[hyperdimension]

The Red Tshirt Gang, ( A Shinawatra wholly owned entity) by their malicious and intimidating ways (as well as the Yellow TShirts, but by a far miniscule lesser degree) have driven the tourist away from this country

absolute bs

annual tourism statistics :

2011 19,098,323 +19.84 %

2010 15,936,400 +12.63 %

2009 14,149,841 -2.98 %

2008 14,584,220 +0.83 %

2007 14,464,228 +4.65 %

2006 13,821,802 +20.01 %

2005 11,516,936 -1.15%

2004 11,650,703 no data

This doesn't show how much tourist spending has either grown or shrunk over time. I'd say tourists spend less these days than 6 years ago, so that may be a factor to why businesses that rely on tourism are suffering. But I don't think the violent political conflict has helped tourism either.

Edited May 25, 2012 by hyperdimension

[nicknostitz]

I followed the 2010 events closely by continuously reading news from a wide range of sources on the internet. I was also watching the television news, which was being broadcast all day. I don't see much wrong with learning about events in this way. The news and images came from people who were in the field like yourself, so what news readers and watchers learned from it may only have been as good as the source. You were probably too occupied on the street each day, and exhausted each night, to have been able to spend much time to read and analyze the events, so you may not have had as wider an understanding of the events as those who had spent most of each day digesting news, commentary and analyses from many different sources. I don't blame you, as I know that you were in difficult and chaotic situations which may have affected your mental abilities, but I'm just highlighting the large difference in perspectives at the time.

First of all, while i appreciate the civil way in which we can discuss these matters, answering your posts is very difficult when you space them over three or four posts.

Anyhow, I have filed at the time, as i always do, all the published articles i can find, so i was, and am aware of what others write. As usual - some is good, and some not so. Don't forget though that many of my colleagues do use me as a source, to bounce information, or to corroborate information. We journalists do talk with each other, especially when we are working in the field in such a difficult situation. During the fighting we were keeping contact all the time, to see if we are still safe, and to exchange news of what was going on in the different locations we were working in.

You point regarding military weapons being very difficult to get is unfortunately not correct. Thailand has a rather big black market in those weapons, and it is actually easier to get weapons than you think, and much cheaper than many imagine. As to military training - Thailand is a country with an army that uses conscripts, and has a multitude of militias and paramilitary organizations - there is no shortage of men that have training and also combat experience in the many border skirmishes that are rarely reported about.

I am am not going any deeper into the issues of armed militants here in this place, for several reasons - my research is not yet complete, and an internet forum is just not the right place to do this. I hope you can understand this.

You misunderstood my sentence on Suthep and the Blue Shirts - regarding the Blue Shirts we have proof that Suthep was majorly involved, given Suthep's own admission in a Nation interview. The only thing that was not correct was that Suthep in this interview described the Blue Shirts as ordinary citizens, and of this we also have proof.

As to your point over my continued use of "Red" and "Yellow" - well, titles have to be simple, i can't exactly write a whole novel for a title Inside will be then enough space for the complexities.

Just saw the first of your four posts, again answering on some of your points. Nirmal's blog is one thing, and his articles published are another thing. While Crispin's stuff may be more juicy, his articles are also full of unconfirmed speculation, which on too many occasions have been simply wrong (and on other occasions right). Again, i specialize on street level, that does not mean though that i either ignore elites, nor that i do not have my own contacts there on all sides. I am aware of "bigger picture issues".

And, yes, of course i talk with Red Shirts of all levels about Thaksin. Why should i be embarrassed to talk about that with you here?

There are many views and opinions on Thaksin under Red Shirts. You have Thaksin opponents under the Red Shirts (a minority, of course), others who a fanatical lovers of Thaksin, and many that lie somewhere in between - people who appreciate what they feel Thaksin has done for them, but who are also aware that he has his faults. There is not just "one opinion" about Thaksin under Red Shirts, and the discussion became more fluid and progressed in quality the longer the conflict took. The latest development is of course Thaksin's speech last Saturday, which drew enormous criticism and bewilderment under Red Shirts, even under Thaksin devotees. For example, an old lady in my Soi - who was the archetypical Thaksin devotee, came to visit my wife on Sunday morning, telling my wife how disappointed she was about the speech. I have spoken with many more Red Shirts of all levels about that speech. This is an interesting new development, and is somehow proof of the fact that the Red Shirt movement signifies larger changes in Thai society, a progress still in development.

I am more interested, as i have always said, in understanding the rise of political awareness under Thais, and i am only interested in Thaksin relation to this - meaning in how he contributes to this development, or how he hinders it. I am not that intrigued by Thaksin as a person. As a person, when you meet him he is friendly, polite, likable, and far more intelligent than is given credit to him here, but i am aware of the fact that i will only see this one side of Thaksin. Being a journo - he will be very guarded and will only show me the side he wants me to see. But sorry, the hyperbole regarding Thaksin here on this forum is not really a base for me to discuss Thaksin.

[rubl]

Even tourist arrival figures are now in this topic of "huge turnout expected", who would have thought.

BTW check this for more details and less bias

http://www.thaivisa....75#entry5326004

or go to the site immediately

http://www.thaiwebsi...com/tourism.asp

[yeeowww]

May I ask what specifically caused the problems with your business that can be attributed to Taksin etc?. Genuine question.

Genuine answer: The Red Tshirt Gang, ( A Shinawatra wholly owned entity) by their malicious and intimidating ways (as well as the Yellow TShirts, but by a far miniscule lesser degree) have driven the tourist away from this country, thereby mortally crippling my business which is 85% reliant on tourism. Now what else about simple business in Thailand don't you understand and I need to clarify further? All of you arrogant <deleted>**s make me ill. You have bank accounts to float on while you judge from your easy chair what should and shouldn't be in a land you come to nest in. I dare you to get out there and try to make a decent living in the midst of this Shinawatra born muck and tell me how great the imposter and greedy bastard is... and you would just as soon spit on him as I would.

The Red Tshirt Gang, ( A Shinawatra wholly owned entity) by their malicious and intimidating ways (as well as the Yellow TShirts, but by a far miniscule lesser degree) have driven the tourist away from this country

absolute bs

annual tourism statistics :

2011 19,098,323 +19.84 %

2010 15,936,400 +12.63 %

2009 14,149,841 -2.98 %

2008 14,584,220 +0.83 %

2007 14,464,228 +4.65 %

2006 13,821,802 +20.01 %

2005 11,516,936 -1.15%

2004 11,650,703 no data

the only drop in tourism since 2005, was in 2009... and i believe that was the year following pad's airport seizure, was it not?

that's their 'far miniscule lesser degree' is it?

As I said previously, you pompous "Armchair Quarterbacks" are clueless. I don't care what your "statistics" say me and 90% of fellow business people of many different forms are being choked to death as a direct result of this ongoing debacle. I can only assume that backpackers make up the bulk of your tourism "data". You throw around meaningless statistics, garnered from god knows where and try to tell me I'm wrong when it is a matter of fact that business sales consistently take a deep plunge in complete sync with malicious Red activity and acts of stupidity from the government. Following the horrifying taking hostage and subsequent burning of Bangkok in 2010, there has been a continual downward spiral of Middle to High income people making holidays in Thailand. Reds, PTP equal bad news for business... period. Mishandling of the floods, ineptness in taking care of the field burnings causing extreme and sickening air pollution, perpetual Red rallys to inconvenience and intimidate... it just goes on and on. Nobody wants to put down thousands of dollars to come on holiday to a place literally rampant and riddled with bad news & bad scenarios. I have friends who run touring businesses out of many different countries and they all say the same thing, Thailand has a bad name and people are now booking holidays to Vietnam, Angkor Wat, Laos and Bali. Thailand has shot itself in the foot and as I mentioned previously, I can no longer tolerate it and too will be leaving this stupidity shortly.

[tlansford]

- deleted due to quote limits -

May I ask what specifically caused the problems with your business that can be attributed to Taksin etc?. Genuine question.

Genuine answer: The Red Tshirt Gang, ( A Shinawatra wholly owned entity) by their malicious and intimidating ways (as well as the Yellow TShirts, but by a far miniscule lesser degree) have driven the tourist away from this country, thereby mortally crippling my business which is 85% reliant on tourism. Now what else about simple business in Thailand don't you understand and I need to clarify further? All of you arrogant <deleted>**s make me ill. You have bank accounts to float on while you judge from your easy chair what should and shouldn't be in a land you come to nest in. I dare you to get out there and try to make a decent living in the midst of this Shinawatra born muck and tell me how great the imposter and greedy bastard is... and you would just as soon spit on him as I would.

The Red Tshirt Gang, ( A Shinawatra wholly owned entity) by their malicious and intimidating ways (as well as the Yellow TShirts, but by a far miniscule lesser degree) have driven the tourist away from this country

absolute bs

annual tourism statistics :

2011 19,098,323 +19.84 %

2010 15,936,400 +12.63 %

2009 14,149,841 -2.98 %

2008 14,584,220 +0.83 %

2007 14,464,228 +4.65 %

2006 13,821,802 +20.01 %

2005 11,516,936 -1.15%

2004 11,650,703 no data

the only drop in tourism since 2005, was in 2009... and i believe that was the year following pad's airport seizure, was it not?

that's their 'far miniscule lesser degree' is it?

Regarding the comment from Whybother, the 2008 figures were flat and 2009 down, and yes, that is quite possibly due to the airport closure. The airport re-opened after the beginning of December. Christmas travel 2008 and the following Jan/Feb were far below seasonal. It would be itneresting to see monthly figures which would shed more light on the tourism travel stats.

[volk666]

2009 was the year of Bloody Red Songkran when the army indiscriminately shot at protesters and carried away corpses in military trucks (one version of it). What was less disputable was that reds overran Asean meeting venue and visiting ministers had to be evacuated by helicopters.

Not sure what effect that memorable Songkran had on tourist arrivals, just saying...

[nicknostitz]

As I said previously, you pompous "Armchair Quarterbacks" are clueless. I don't care what your "statistics" say me and 90% of fellow business people of many different forms are being choked to death as a direct result of this ongoing debacle. I can only assume that backpackers make up the bulk of your tourism "data". You throw around meaningless statistics, garnered from god knows where and try to tell me I'm wrong when it is a matter of fact that business sales consistently take a deep plunge in complete sync with malicious Red activity and acts of stupidity from the government. Following the horrifying taking hostage and subsequent burning of Bangkok in 2010, there has been a continual downward spiral of Middle to High income people making holidays in Thailand. Reds, PTP equal bad news for business... period. Mishandling of the floods, ineptness in taking care of the field burnings causing extreme and sickening air pollution, perpetual Red rallys to inconvenience and intimidate... it just goes on and on. Nobody wants to put down thousands of dollars to come on holiday to a place literally rampant and riddled with bad news & bad scenarios. I have friends who run touring businesses out of many different countries and they all say the same thing, Thailand has a bad name and people are now booking holidays to Vietnam, Angkor Wat, Laos and Bali. Thailand has shot itself in the foot and as I mentioned previously, I can no longer tolerate it and too will be leaving this stupidity shortly.

You have my compassion for the downturn of your business.

Nevertheless, Thailand isn't just about tourism businesses, and to expect that political transformations within Thai society have to be put on hold just because you made a slightly unwise business decision to invest in a rather high risk country and not got out when the trouble began with the 2005 PAD protests and the subsequent coup is slightly myopic. Or did you expect back in 2006 that the military coup would pass without consequences?

The political trouble is not just caused by the Red Shirts, other quarters play an equal role there as well. I would suggest to not just to watch Asia Update, but also Blue Sky TV, ASTV, Thai TVD, T-News, and the Santi Asoke Station to get an idea how many different factions in Thai society ideologically compete over the future of Thailand. That this is what all is about - what will be the future of Thailand and Thai society. Next time i would suggest that if you want stability to invest in a stable country.

Edited May 25, 2012 by nicknostitz

[nicknostitz]

2009 was the year of Bloody Red Songkran when the army indiscriminately shot at protesters and carried away corpses in military trucks (one version of it). What was less disputable was that reds overran Asean meeting venue and visiting ministers had to be evacuated by helicopters.

Not sure what effect that memorable Songkran had on tourist arrivals, just saying...

Just don't forget the role of the Blue Shirts in the Pattaya Asean invasion.

Anyhow, thanks for you defending me against the attack that i wouldn't know anything about Thai culture - this was appreciated.

[jayboy]

[quote name='yeeowww' timestamp='1337934854' post='5331043'

As I said previously, you pompous "Armchair Quarterbacks" are clueless. I don't care what your "statistics" say me and 90% of fellow business people of many different forms are being choked to death as a direct result of this ongoing debacle. I can only assume that backpackers make up the bulk of your tourism "data". You throw around meaningless statistics, garnered from god knows where and try to tell me I'm wrong when it is a matter of fact that business sales consistently take a deep plunge in complete sync with malicious Red activity and acts of stupidity from the government. Following the horrifying taking hostage and subsequent burning of Bangkok in 2010, there has been a continual downward spiral of Middle to High income people making holidays in Thailand. Reds, PTP equal bad news for business... period. Mishandling of the floods, ineptness in taking care of the field burnings causing extreme and sickening air pollution, perpetual Red rallys to inconvenience and intimidate... it just goes on and on. Nobody wants to put down thousands of dollars to come on holiday to a place literally rampant and riddled with bad news & bad scenarios. I have friends who run touring businesses out of many different countries and they all say the same thing, Thailand has a bad name and people are now booking holidays to Vietnam, Angkor Wat, Laos and Bali. Thailand has shot itself in the foot and as I mentioned previously, I can no longer tolerate it and too will be leaving this stupidity shortly.

Your comments do not reflect the reality namely that the hospitality sector in Thailand is doing extremely well, and after the setbacks of the airport occupation and redshirt protests is achieving excellent results.Naturally the global economic difficulties are a challenge but overall Thailand and its tourist oriented businesses are doing extremely well.

Your suggestion that your unnamed business is suffering from the current government's policies is rather strange - and apparently deeply felt.This is not the common experience and perhaps you should consider whether your problems are caused by other factors.The fact that you dismiss all statistics and rational evidence suggests that the problems you face are related to poor management or other micro factors rather than the wider environment.

[tlansford]

- deleted due to quote limits -

Genuine answer: The Red Tshirt Gang, ( A Shinawatra wholly owned entity) by their malicious and intimidating ways (as well as the Yellow TShirts, but by a far miniscule lesser degree) have driven the tourist away from this country, thereby mortally crippling my business which is 85% reliant on tourism. Now what else about simple business in Thailand don't you understand and I need to clarify further? All of you arrogant <deleted>**s make me ill. You have bank accounts to float on while you judge from your easy chair what should and shouldn't be in a land you come to nest in. I dare you to get out there and try to make a decent living in the midst of this Shinawatra born muck and tell me how great the imposter and greedy bastard is... and you would just as soon spit on him as I would.

The Red Tshirt Gang, ( A Shinawatra wholly owned entity) by their malicious and intimidating ways (as well as the Yellow TShirts, but by a far miniscule lesser degree) have driven the tourist away from this country

absolute bs

annual tourism statistics :

2011 19,098,323 +19.84 %

2010 15,936,400 +12.63 %

2009 14,149,841 -2.98 %

2008 14,584,220 +0.83 %

2007 14,464,228 +4.65 %

2006 13,821,802 +20.01 %

2005 11,516,936 -1.15%

2004 11,650,703 no data

the only drop in tourism since 2005, was in 2009... and i believe that was the year following pad's airport seizure, was it not?

that's their 'far miniscule lesser degree' is it?

As I said previously, you pompous "Armchair Quarterbacks" are clueless. I don't care what your "statistics" say me and 90% of fellow business people of many different forms are being choked to death as a direct result of this ongoing debacle. I can only assume that backpackers make up the bulk of your tourism "data". You throw around meaningless statistics, garnered from god knows where and try to tell me I'm wrong when it is a matter of fact that business sales consistently take a deep plunge in complete sync with malicious Red activity and acts of stupidity from the government. Following the horrifying taking hostage and subsequent burning of Bangkok in 2010, there has been a continual downward spiral of Middle to High income people making holidays in Thailand. Reds, PTP equal bad news for business... period. Mishandling of the floods, ineptness in taking care of the field burnings causing extreme and sickening air pollution, perpetual Red rallys to inconvenience and intimidate... it just goes on and on. Nobody wants to put down thousands of dollars to come on holiday to a place literally rampant and riddled with bad news & bad scenarios. I have friends who run touring businesses out of many different countries and they all say the same thing, Thailand has a bad name and people are now booking holidays to Vietnam, Angkor Wat, Laos and Bali. Thailand has shot itself in the foot and as I mentioned previously, I can no longer tolerate it and too will be leaving this stupidity shortly.

Not everyone commenting on the tourism industry and disagreeing with your assessment is an armchair quarterback.

Nor does that make your claim about your business numbers less valid - obviously you know your own numbers very well.

What can be said is that the overall numbers do not correlate to your situation. And what I can add from personal experience is that, with the exception of the airport closure, the weather has had a much greater impact on the tourism industry where it impacts me personally. The burning of bangkok was a blip in business and was during the low season anyway. The summer months afterwards were as good as ever.

[rubl]

2009 was the year of Bloody Red Songkran when the army indiscriminately shot at protesters and carried away corpses in military trucks (one version of it). What was less disputable was that reds overran Asean meeting venue and visiting ministers had to be evacuated by helicopters.

Not sure what effect that memorable Songkran had on tourist arrivals, just saying...

Just don't forget the role of the Blue Shirts in the Pattaya Asean invasion.

Anyhow, thanks for you defending me against the attack that i wouldn't know anything about Thai culture - this was appreciated.

Pattaya, a bit off from 'huge turnout expected", but more fun to some it seems

"Red Shirt leader Arisamun Pongruengrong demanded that the government deliver the responsible Blue Shirts to justice. He held a press conference inside the entry area of the conference building of the Hotel. Several Red Shirts have shown off a sack of blue shirts that they found during their approach to the Hotel. After a lull of about one or two hours, suddenly Red Shirts walked into the grounds directly in front of the Hotel doors. Army and police appeared to be lost for an answer. Red Shirts stood at the front doors, and suddenly began pushing. One large glass window suddenly broke, and Red Shirts stood inside the Hotel. I was completely astounded, and let myself be carried with the flow of protesters who streamed into the hotel like an overflowing river."

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/04/20/the-crushing-of-the-red-shirts/

BTW found this interesting character reference while searching for other things. Mind you, what would the American Ambassador know about this

"Human Rights Watch researcher Sunai Phasuk and

independent photojournalist Nick Nostitz, who only semi-jokes

about having been "embedded" in red circles for several

years, separately shared concerns with us that the red-shirts

were operating under the assumption the planned demonstration

would turn violent. Nostitz cited the rhetoric in particular

of Pattaya riot leader Arisman and Suphon Attawong (aka

"Rambo Isaan"). Thaksin's ex-lawyer, his sister Yingluck

Shinawatra, and Jaran all told us that the UDD planned for

the rally to be peaceful. However, red-shirt leaders offered

similar assurances to us in March-April, and Jaran said he

could not discount the possibility of a third party inciting

the government to crack down, at which point he said the UDD

leaders would not be able to contain the actions of the

people. We will continue to monitor red rhetoric and

developments closely.

JOHN"

http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=09BANGKOK3009

[nicknostitz]

BTW found this interesting character reference while searching for other things. Mind you, what would the American Ambassador know about this

I somehow knew that one day this cable would come up here. And no, i am not particular happy about it, but whatever...

It shows the strengths and the weaknesses of the US embassy cables quite well. While it shows that the US is doing a very good job in trying to understand the situation, this cable also has particular weaknesses where someone edited out certain very important matters giving more balanced views that were also talked about in the meeting with my contact in order to be able report his own personal views (and only an edited version of mine) on the situation to his superior officers, such as the ambassador.

What has been omitted in this cable is that we have also, for example, talked about violence planned by military, etc. to fight the Red Shirts.

Anyhow, this cable should finally put the assumptions so regularly voiced here in this place to rest that i would be a Red Shirt propagandist, etc.

[gemini81]

BTW found this interesting character reference while searching for other things. Mind you, what would the American Ambassador know about this

I somehow knew that one day this cable would come up here. And no, i am not particular happy about it, but whatever...

It shows the strengths and the weaknesses of the US embassy cables quite well. While it shows that the US is doing a very good job in trying to understand the situation, this cable also has particular weaknesses where someone edited out certain very important matters giving more balanced views that were also talked about in the meeting with my contact in order to be able report his own personal views (and only an edited version of mine) on the situation to his superior officers, such as the ambassador.

What has been omitted in this cable is that we have also, for example, talked about violence planned by military, etc. to fight the Red Shirts.

Anyhow, this cable should finally put the assumptions so regularly voiced here in this place to rest that i would be a Red Shirt propagandist, etc.

It wasn't planned violence by the army. It was planned by Thaksin along with a few henchmen to carry it out. I think the loitering in BKK was tolerated far too long, and resorting to bringing in armed forces was the only way. As far as lack of planning, to bad the army doesn't have more urban combat training as well as dealing with situations silimar to this that've cropped up over the years. Ought to train with the Israeli army, and then maybe they would be better planned.

[metisdead]

Once again, this topic is not about Nick Nostitz. A post has been removed for contravention of this forum rule:

5) Not to use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. You also agree not to post negative comments criticizing the legal proceedings or judgments of any Thai court of law.

[somtumlion]

Back to the thread topic - how close did they get the to the 200,000 their leaders projected?

[animatic]

[quote name='yeeowww' timestamp='1337934854' post='5331043'

As I said previously, you pompous "Armchair Quarterbacks" are clueless. I don't care what your "statistics" say me and 90% of fellow business people of many different forms are being choked to death as a direct result of this ongoing debacle. I can only assume that backpackers make up the bulk of your tourism "data". You throw around meaningless statistics, garnered from god knows where and try to tell me I'm wrong when it is a matter of fact that business sales consistently take a deep plunge in complete sync with malicious Red activity and acts of stupidity from the government. Following the horrifying taking hostage and subsequent burning of Bangkok in 2010, there has been a continual downward spiral of Middle to High income people making holidays in Thailand. Reds, PTP equal bad news for business... period. Mishandling of the floods, ineptness in taking care of the field burnings causing extreme and sickening air pollution, perpetual Red rallys to inconvenience and intimidate... it just goes on and on. Nobody wants to put down thousands of dollars to come on holiday to a place literally rampant and riddled with bad news & bad scenarios. I have friends who run touring businesses out of many different countries and they all say the same thing, Thailand has a bad name and people are now booking holidays to Vietnam, Angkor Wat, Laos and Bali. Thailand has shot itself in the foot and as I mentioned previously, I can no longer tolerate it and too will be leaving this stupidity shortly.

Your comments do not reflect the reality namely that the hospitality sector in Thailand is doing extremely well, and after the setbacks of the airport occupation and redshirt protests is achieving excellent results.Naturally the global economic difficulties are a challenge but overall Thailand and its tourist oriented businesses are doing extremely well.

Your suggestion that your unnamed business is suffering from the current government's policies is rather strange - and apparently deeply felt.This is not the common experience and perhaps you should consider whether your problems are caused by other factors.The fact that you dismiss all statistics and rational evidence suggests that the problems you face are related to poor management or other micro factors rather than the wider environment.

Some how it's hard to believe you actually know someone in the hospitality sector.

Because this government backing hyperbol doesn't reflect the reality.

[jayboy]

The reality is that political points can't be made effectively on substantive impact of recent events - whether coup,junta or yellow and red excesses.Simply because apart from brief and temporary dips the Thai tourist industry including visitor arrivals has gone from strength to strength.

[Buchholz]

Back to the thread topic - how close did they get the to the 200,000 their leaders projected?

We've had reports of between 20,000 - 50,000.

The Red Shirts have for quite some time been pretty consistent with their obtaining around 10% of whatever they predict/proclaim/promise.

Of course, scoring 10% on a test is a very low F and a salesman meeting only 10% of his sales goals would certainly be fired.

.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Buchholz

[metisdead]

More off topic posts have been removed, seems like I'm .

[Thaddeus]

Not everyone commenting on the tourism industry and disagreeing with your assessment is an armchair quarterback.

Nor does that make your claim about your business numbers less valid - obviously you know your own numbers very well.

What can be said is that the overall numbers do not correlate to your situation. And what I can add from personal experience is that, with the exception of the airport closure, the weather has had a much greater impact on the tourism industry where it impacts me personally. The burning of bangkok was a blip in business and was during the low season anyway. The summer months afterwards were as good as ever.

And of course you live here full time don't you, and run a business here catering to the tourist industry full time as well.

[volk666]

Speaking of numbers, back in 2010 red leaders were expecting 100,000 pickup trucks to show up and block Bangkok traffic. On average that's 50 billion baht show of "poverty".

Edited May 25, 2012 by volk666

[nurofiend]

As I said previously, you pompous "Armchair Quarterbacks" are clueless. I don't care what your "statistics" say me and 90% of fellow business people of many different forms are being choked to death as a direct result of this ongoing debacle. I can only assume that backpackers make up the bulk of your tourism "data". You throw around meaningless statistics, garnered from god knows where and try to tell me I'm wrong when it is a matter of fact that business sales consistently take a deep plunge in complete sync with malicious Red activity and acts of stupidity from the government. Following the horrifying taking hostage and subsequent burning of Bangkok in 2010, there has been a continual downward spiral of Middle to High income people making holidays in Thailand. Reds, PTP equal bad news for business... period. Mishandling of the floods, ineptness in taking care of the field burnings causing extreme and sickening air pollution, perpetual Red rallys to inconvenience and intimidate... it just goes on and on. Nobody wants to put down thousands of dollars to come on holiday to a place literally rampant and riddled with bad news & bad scenarios. I have friends who run touring businesses out of many different countries and they all say the same thing, Thailand has a bad name and people are now booking holidays to Vietnam, Angkor Wat, Laos and Bali. Thailand has shot itself in the foot and as I mentioned previously, I can no longer tolerate it and too will be leaving this stupidity shortly.

the only person sounding pompous in this back and forth is you my friend... i simply put some figures up.

just because you own a business related to tourism does not mean you're the only person who has any idea about it.

i know a quite a few people with businesses related to tourism who are doing just fine.

[tlansford]

Not everyone commenting on the tourism industry and disagreeing with your assessment is an armchair quarterback.

Nor does that make your claim about your business numbers less valid - obviously you know your own numbers very well.

What can be said is that the overall numbers do not correlate to your situation. And what I can add from personal experience is that, with the exception of the airport closure, the weather has had a much greater impact on the tourism industry where it impacts me personally. The burning of bangkok was a blip in business and was during the low season anyway. The summer months afterwards were as good as ever.

And of course you live here full time don't you, and run a business here catering to the tourist industry full time as well.

You'll notice that I acknowledge that others know their own business - as I do mine. And the other poster's statements were very valid with the exception of calling "all" the others armchair quarterbacks.

it sounds like a statement trying to question the authenticity and validity of my statement without just coming out and saying so.

Being a straight-forward kind of guy, I'd prefer is you just said "that's BS", but of course you can't do that because you know it is not BS.

Otherwise, you might have provided information that would have added to the discussion.

So please take your pointer and beat around some other bush.