Concept 2 Rower Model D (Exercise For Fat Loss)

[tropo]

Tropo, ill read up on your article, but the heartrate and what percentage of calories you burn come from fat was already known to me. But i always thought if i work out harder i burn more thus a larger total will always be fat.

But the idea of doing slower cardio and getting energy is great. I mean that is part of why we do it. To get energy, and feel good.

You need to go a little deeper into the article. The percentage of calories burned from fat was not the point of my post or the article. I side-tracked the issue by mentioning that...

(I'm interested in the volume of calories of fat burned, not percentages. A high percentage of fat burned from a low number doing slow cardio is not something I'm interested in. This is not slow cardio. I still burned an average of 833 per hour at the lower heart rate)

...but this is beside the point and merely an extra benefit of training at MAF...

The point of this training is to develop the aerobic engine and improve recovery from hard workouts - or to prevent overtraining and going backwards.

[robblok]

Tropo, ill read up on your article, but the heartrate and what percentage of calories you burn come from fat was already known to me. But i always thought if i work out harder i burn more thus a larger total will always be fat.

But the idea of doing slower cardio and getting energy is great. I mean that is part of why we do it. To get energy, and feel good.

You need to go a little deeper into the article. The percentage of calories burned from fat was not the point of my post or the article. I side-tracked the issue by mentioning that...

(I'm interested in the volume of calories of fat burned, not percentages. A high percentage of fat burned from a low number doing slow cardio is not something I'm interested in. This is not slow cardio. I still burned an average of 833 per hour at the lower heart rate)

...but this is beside the point and merely an extra benefit of training at MAF...

The point of this training is to develop the aerobic engine and improve recovery from hard workouts - or to prevent overtraining and going backwards.

Ok Tropo, because we all need recovery. Maybe you need it more then me because you seem to be more active then me. I do train 4-5 days a week but your sessions seem to be longer and more cardio in it. I am trying to go where you are going to but i was worried about overtraining. That is why i am building it up slower. This might help with this.

But i think your in a better cardio shape then me. (meaning my heart rate goes up more doing the same thing). I need to develop this more.

[tropo]

But the guy here is saying you won't burn any fat at all. But if you create a caloric deficit aren't you always burning fat ?. You might not be burning fat at that moment but your short on calories and during the day they will come from fat (or so i hope)

Not arguing with you here just wanting to see how my thinking is wrong.

Sorry, you posted twice but I replied before I read your second post.I don't know how you came to that conclusion - I'll read it again later because I'm off to the gym shortly...

From what I understood, the guy is saying that you'll burn primarily from fat - that's the whole idea. The "aerobic engine" is a fat burning engine - one that allows you to go on forever. You're developing your maximum fat burning capabilities by training at MAF as well as developing maximum recovery capability from hard training. He suggests the best time for such a workout is the day after your hard training.

He's not saying to stop "hard cardio" or HIIT, only to use this as a recovery tool and to improve aerobic capacity.

Edited May 30, 2012 by tropo

[tropo]

I finally got my bank sorted out, so I'm a click away from sending the money for the Concept Rower.

I'll go and row for 15 minutes down at the gym and think it over....

I'm quite patient

You said you need a new heart rate monitor for the bike. Why not get a Garmin receiver/watch to match your chest strap?

I have the basic Polar FT1. I'm thinking of ordering the Polar receiver for the Concept Rower just as a back up so I can use my Polar with the Concept. It's an extra $25.

[robblok]

I finally got my bank sorted out, so I'm a click away from sending the money for the Concept Rower.

I'll go and row for 15 minutes down at the gym and think it over....

I'm quite patient

You said you need a new heart rate monitor for the bike. Why not get a Garmin receiver/watch to match your chest strap?

I have the basic Polar FT1. I'm thinking of ordering the Polar receiver for the Concept Rower just as a back up so I can use my Polar with the Concept. It's an extra $25.

Thing is i actually got a quite nice heartrate monitor from polar. Special made for the bike but i think the strap stopped working. So i might just have to buy a new strap and be done with it. (i assume its the strap that stopped because the part mounted on the bike is still working) I also changed the batteries on the strap to be sure. Still no joy.

[tropo]

Just to expand on the MAF (maximum aerobic function) which I touched upon in a post of above, the following excerpt from another article http://philmaffetone.com/maftest.cfm explained the fat burning aspects of this test:

"The MAF Test should indicate faster times as the weeks pass. This means the aerobic system is improving and you’re burning more fat, enabling you to do more work with the same effort. Even if you walk or run longer distances, your MAF Test should show the same progression of results, providing you heed your maximum aerobic heart rate"

.. and another explanation here: http://www.champions...ere.com/maftest

"the MAF test is part of our ChampionsEverywhere program for prevention of under performance in our athletes. This test does not focus on under-recovery and overtraining as much as it tries to detect whether your recent training has damaged your level of aerobic fitness and through this provide an early indication of problems with your training"

...and some more detailed info on how to calculate your MAF here: http://www.jimotisdc.com/aerobic.html with adjustments for illness, medication, being unfit, being fit etc.

...and lastly a very good explanation of how to use MAF here: http://www.befitlifestyle.com/docs/MAF_TEST_ARTICLE.pdf

Without doubt I've been heading steadily into an overtrained state by pushing my cardio too hard.

Edited May 30, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

Tropo,

I think i will give it a go. Do you think both kinds of cardio are combineable ?. With the heartrate monintor the rower is good to do MAF. So why not.

I just woke up after a night of fishing and i feel crap. No training today just relaxing. But tomorrow im game again. I love and hate night fishing it screws me up. But we all had fun.

[tropo]

It's all quite new to me Rob. I'm just having a coffee on my way to try another MAF session. I'll report back later how I feel after it.

Yes, I think they are combinable. How exactly I'm going to combine them I haven't worked out yet. I need some MAF sessions to recuperate from overdoing the hard cardio for quite some time.

I'm thinking of combining 3 types of cardio sessions over the course of a week:

1. Hard cardio (130 - 150's HR) for 30 - 60 mins duration on separate cardio days.

2. HIIT (up to 160's HR and short 15 minutes max including warmup). Perhaps twice a week after workouts.

3. MAF at target 130 HR for long sessions of 60 - 90 minutes on separate cardio days or at night on gym days.

It's going to be tricky because my weight sessions are still priority number one, as they always have been.

I finally made the payment and my Concept 2 will be on its way soon. (I paid the $422 to have it FedX'd to my door - let's see what duties and taxes I end up paying).

Perhaps I'll be doing most of my MAF sessions on the Concept 2, but I have no idea how I'll go rowing for an hour or longer. I've hardly ever rowed for longer than 30 minutes. Boredom will probably become an issue but at least at home I can vvatch TV or a movie while I'm rowing. The good thing is that my heart rate is always in the MAF zone when I row anyway, so it's perfectly suited to the job. The question is how will my lower back (lumbar spine) stand up to it - an unknown at this stage.

You have 2 cardio machines at home now - that will come in very handy for you. The only other home MAF for me would be walking (around the park) - another option if my back needs a rest. Perhaps I need to look into getting another cardio machine.

Edited May 31, 2012 by tropo

[tropo]

I learned a lot from my second MAF cardio session today.

Today I did 30 minutes on the rower and then 60 minutes on the Cybex. I planned to use the bike but the only decent upright bike (they only have 4) was occupied.

I discovered that I really have to row hard (by my perceived scale of effort) to get my heart rate up to MAF. Most of the time it was lower (I averaged 122) but that is skewed somewhat because I row really slow for 5 minutes to warmup. I never row hard until I've done at least 5 minutes (sometimes more) of slow rowing. Despite this, I rowed 6800m and burned 410 calories - a significant improvement on my first MAF rowing session.

What happened next was remarkable. I burned 1100 calories keeping my heart rate right on the MAF of 128 for the full 60 minutes. My Polar HRM confirmed the average of 128.

Normally when I do hard cardio on the Cybex, pushing my heart rate into the 140's and 150's, I burn about 1200 - 1250 in a 60 minute session. At that stage I'm normally feeling wiped out. When I got off the Cybex today I felt like I could have hopped back on for another hour.

Obviously when I push my heart rate higher I'm travelling into the sugar burning zone which is interfering with my fat burning and tiring me out in the process. The calorie difference between a hard cardio session (1250) and today's MAF cardio session (1100) is minimal. The amount of fat I burned with MAF cardio would have been far higher.

Most importantly I'm sitting at home feeling extremely energetic once again after a full 90 minutes of cardio and having burned a total of 1500 calories.

I cannot remember feeling this good after a session at the gym.

After this experience I've decided I'm going to throw out hard cardio and concentrate on MAF and HIIT.

Edited May 31, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

Tropo,

I will try MAF too on the rower and bike. (bike i have to wait for a new strap for the heartrate monitor). It sounds like something good. Because i want to have more energy from training not less. Though feeling tired after a weightlifting session is ok.

[tropo]

The benefits of yesterday's MAF session continue today. More energetic than usual and still feeling fresh after 2 hours of weight training. I'm usually pretty energetic in the gym anyway, but today would have been at about 100% better.

[robblok]

I did MAF on the rower too, i must say its hard to control your heart rate. i went over it with a few beat at times and then had to slow down. My heart rate was strange sometimes i could do more intense and the beat stayed lower and other parts i could do less and the beat went higher.

But i do feel like an energy bunny but that could also be the pre workout drink that has not left my system. But i do feel that MAF is something that can be maintained forever. Just like you said. Now the challenge is keeping the heart rate down while increasing the distance.

I think i like it, did it for half an hour but could have done more. I think boredom is the greatest killer.

I did the rowing after a session of back (with deadlift) and biceps.

On an other note after cleaning the rower i ad some oil on it (contact spray) because i saw spots appearing on the slide even after i cleaned and dried it. I think its the humility in this country. I see the same happen to barbells and dumbbells.

[tropo]

We might be on the same split. I also did back (including deadlift) and biceps today, but no cardio - just a 15 minutes warmup on the rower.

I'm willing to bet your energized bunny state is a result of MAF. There's no pre-workout drink in existence that could keep my energy levels high for so long.

I'm hooked already, after only 2 sessions.

To counteract the boredom it's good to have 2 machines. When you get your chest strap fixed you can do 30 minutes on each.

[robblok]

Not sure we are on the same split, i try to train regular but sometimes i cant make it one day. Like when i do some night fishing or some other day to day thing interfears with my training. Then i skip a day and do an extra day later. (trying to keep my gym work good but having a normal life too). I love training but normal things should be possible too. Life should not only revolve around training.

I am not saying that is the case with you, just my vision of it. I just need to order a new chest strap on ebay. I will do that soon. I just hope ill sleep good.

I am now also eating more as normal more proteins. After i found out how much i burned with the bodymedia. I like it for many things love how it shows me my sleep cycle (how much i lie down and how much i actually sleep and when i wake up during the night. Gives me an idea how good the quality of sleep is that i had.

It might be off a bit (calorie burn) but ill see i have been stuck at a certain weight now but actually i don't care. I am sure that with extra food and cardio i will break through it sooner or later. I got enough time to get to my goal. Just prefer to be there before 20 november as that is the time my parents arrive in Thailand. That would make it a kg per month, not a impossible task id say.

[tropo]

If you are going to slow down the fat loss you're probably going to increase your muscle gain too. At some point they may cancel each other out.

Maybe you should do the pinch caliper tests to get some idea of how much fat you're carrying and that will also give you an idea of how much of your body is lean mass and how far you can ultimately goal - and then set your goals more precisely.

[robblok]

I did an other MAF session on the rower only this time i did it without lifting weights first. It did make a difference in that it took me a while to get my heartrate up. Once it was up it was similair strange and hard to keep the heartrate from going to high or staying good. But again i feel great and i felt like i could have gone on longer.

I will get those calipers for sure right now with the extra food intake and all i will see where that will get me.

[tropo]

I did an other MAF session on the rower only this time i did it without lifting weights first. It did make a difference in that it took me a while to get my heartrate up. Once it was up it was similair strange and hard to keep the heartrate from going to high or staying good. But again i feel great and i felt like i could have gone on longer.

I will get those calipers for sure right now with the extra food intake and all i will see where that will get me.

That's good.

I was just thinking while I was MAF'ing this afternoon, this is the perfect solution for you to prevent you from over doing it and competing with former sessions (time, meters, watts etc). You cannot compete when you're MAF'ing. Your heart rate decides how hard you're going to row.

I did a 90 minute triple combo again (row 30, bike 30, cybex 30). This time I did a 1000m warmup on the rower and started my 30 minute MAF row session straight after. I wanted to get a better idea of my MAF performance by starting my session closer to my MAF target heart rate or 128 rather than trying to build it up. I ended up averaging 126 for the session , rowed 6900m and burned 421 calories.

This is actually quite a staggering result for me. When I'm rowing really hard I usually get between 7000 - 7100m, but I'm pretty wasted by the end. Now I'm MAF'ing nearly the same distance and getting off the rower feeling fresh.

I ended up burning 1326 calories for the 90 minutes and once again finished feeling fresh and energetic.... and the energy continued long after and I even got in a couple of hours of gardening later.

For me this is revolutionary stuff. Burning large numbers of calories and staying fresh. Just having more energy after gym will increase my daily calorie burn as I'm more active. I've dropped an extra 1kg too (1kg in the last week), so last month I dropped 2kg instead of my target of 1kg.

Regarding the callipers - They can be extremely useful for you because you can measure various areas of your body and keep record of the skin fold thickness - and then re-check once a month or so to monitor your progress. Even if it is not an absolute measure of bodyfat percentage it allows you to track progress in a very useful way. Besides, unless you're carrying a lot of visceral fat as I was, it's only sub-cutaneous fat you need concern yourself with because that is all you see in the mirror. You can keep a check on your visceral fat by taping your waist and keeping accurate measurements. These will come in handy as you age, as a reference point.

Edited June 2, 2012 by tropo

[tropo]

My next project is to see how I can combine MAF training with HIIT. I plan to do the HIIT short sessions at the end of some of my weight sessions. Perhaps 2 per week. It will be interesting to see how the HIIT feels after having done a number of long MAF sessions.

I'm guessing that my MAF will help my HIIT and visa versa.

At this stage I cannot see any place for my old style "hard cardio" sessions.

Edited June 2, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

Tropo, i i did MAF with the rower and i did not come close to 7000 meter. I got 5700 meters no more. So your in a beter shape as me. I will try 40 minutes later but the anoying things is i have to row slower as time passes. Still i will go on with MAF. I like it and it keeps me from over doing it. I am not sure i can do long sessions like you. You seem to have more free time then me, i work first then workout. Though its also a matter of priorities. I think i could do one hour if i wanted too.

I will have to build my stamina slowly to be able to burn more calories with MAF. No problems here i can still play with my food intake. Thinking of doing it tomorrow again. I don't have to train just normal work.

I am now real close with what i eat and what i burn on days that i don't do weightlifting. I actually dont care too much as i will see how it goes. Been dropping weight fast b4 but stalling. Maybe now i will stall a bit and later start dropping or just get some muscles. Its actually all fine i am enjoying my workouts and with all this working out and eating right something must change.

I must say i love the rower i saw some HIT programs on it. You can choose setting distances or time. I used to do HIT on the bike but i think the rower is even better for it.

[robblok]

Actually tropo after thinking about what you said about distance and MAF and hard cardio and distance. I think even with me there is not that much difference. I think i could do 6500 in half an hour, and now i did 5700 in half an hour. Difference is not that great but the energy and intensity is. Strange actually as i row a lot faster and stronger.

Actually its not that strange now that i think about it going faster is not a linear thing power wise. Every bit faster costs a lot more energy as the previous increase. Just normal laws of physics.

They made the rower to simulate nature.. and in nature a 50hp engine or a 100hp engine do not equate double speed.

[tropo]

When I do the rower "hard", I don't do a constant "hard". I cycle it - doing harder and easier. Not quite HIIT, but medium intensity intervals would explain it. I used to do this to break the boredom. I'm not sure if I'll try HIIT on the rower - I just think it will be too much for my lumbar spine because to get my HR into the 160's will require "back breaking" work for me. That's kind of like being a victim of my own fitness.

When I'm rowing MAF for 30 minutes the intensity doesn't drop off much towards the end - just a little. Perhaps that's just a matter of conditioning. I've been rowing a very long time. I actually like it more towards the end because I don't need to pull so hard to stay in the MAF zone. In comparison I find it easy to keep the heart rate in the MAF zone on the Cybex and bike.

The bike is currently my weak link. I've just started again to see how I like doing MAF on it. When I was doing it hard I was messing up my knees but I think MAF on it will be ok.

I don't know how I will go doing the rowing for a full hour. That will be interesting. I will try that when I get my own rower next week. It will be a lot easier seeing my HR on the screen - it's awkward looking at a my wrist HR monitor while rowing.

Edited June 2, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

Ok just did 45 min MAF on the rower, i must say my heartbeat can be a bit strange at times. Sometimes i can go faster / stronger with lower heartbeat and then i hit a patch where i have to slow down to get the heartrate down.

All in all not a bad session and i wish i had the mental power to do this more often early in the morning. I am trying to get my sleeping paterns better so i need less sleep and can wake up earlier. I lie in bed a lot dozing of again in the morning. If i get enough sleep i wont need it and a 45 min session on the rower is then just what the doctor orders. Now i can shower.. eat and start working again.

[tropo]

Ok just did 45 min MAF on the rower, i must say my heartbeat can be a bit strange at times. Sometimes i can go faster / stronger with lower heartbeat and then i hit a patch where i have to slow down to get the heartrate down.

How is your breathing? Breathing rhythm can affect heart rate. Are you inhaling/exhaling once per stroke? More powerful (forceful) breathing can lower your heart rate.

[robblok]

Ok just did 45 min MAF on the rower, i must say my heartbeat can be a bit strange at times. Sometimes i can go faster / stronger with lower heartbeat and then i hit a patch where i have to slow down to get the heartrate down.

How is your breathing? Breathing rhythm can affect heart rate. Are you inhaling/exhaling once per stroke? More powerful (forceful) breathing can lower your heart rate.

I control my breathing i know what impact it can have. I just think sometimes i get a bit more tired and then it will take a while to get the rate down. At least that is the explanation that i have now. With breathing i can get it down a bit at times. But i have to admit im not always busy with breathing but i assume i do it right automatically.

[tropo]

I viewed quite a number of instructional videos for Concept rowing and was surprised that not one mentioned breathing - the most important aspect of technique.

I did a true HIIT session today after my shoulder workout.

Short and sweet. On the Cybex - 8 cycles of 30 second bursts with 60 second recovery leaving it all on the table during the bursts and pushing my heart rate up to 100% (171) on the last 2 cycles. A pretty serious first session. Although it wasn't the objective I still burned over 300 calories in 15 minutes including the 3 minute warmup.

It would seem like a perfect combo with MAF. Perhaps twice a week would be sufficient. It will be interesting to see if this improves MAF efficiency.

I'm not sure if I could push my heart rate up that high on the rower without hurting my back.

[robblok]

Did an other 45 min this morning, started a bit later then i wanted but ok i did it. Made improvements to last time a few % nothing spectacular but it felt better too. Could keep my heart better in the range and just felt better. The thing is it isn't hard to train like this and i am sure i could do a full hour too.

But for now 45 minutes is enough. Cutting down on lying in my bed (not the sleep part).

Tonight lifting weights again and probably a bit of a row not MAF in the end. Probably a 5000 meter row.

I havent had a moment regret that i bought this machine. Its ten times better for my cardio then anything else i have used. I am sure your cybex is better but this is it for me.

[tropo]

When you do your planned 5000m row later on what's the plan - full out? See how fast you can go? Maybe you could try a short interval session (HIIT) to contrast with the longer MAF? That would help you build up your rowing strength.

Do you track your calorie burn on the rower? How many calories did you burn during the 45 minute MAF?

My parcel was showing "International shipment release - import" at the FedEx depot in Samutprakarn at 7am. It's getting close...

[robblok]

When you do your planned 5000m row later on what's the plan - full out? See how fast you can go? Maybe you could try a short interval session (HIIT) to contrast with the longer MAF? That would help you build up your rowing strength.

Do you track your calorie burn on the rower? How many calories did you burn during the 45 minute MAF?

My parcel was showing "International shipment release - import" at the FedEx depot in Samutprakarn at 7am. It's getting close...

Tropo, i use the bodymedia for calorie tracking. I have not really looked for the calories burned during MAF as there are formulas to calculate them (can find it on the concept page). The bodymedia just keeps track all day long (and i think its at the low what it shows). But i like it i definately see differences between days that i walk a lot or do cardio or cardo and strenght training and nothing. So I adapt my food to that too.

So i m not really looking at what i burn in a set bit of training but more what i burn all day long. Just walking a bit more instead of sitting behind my desk (computer work) changes things.

For the 5000 meters i plan on just going full out. Next time maybe a bit of interval training. Now i just want to do the 5000 meter. I would probably have a lot of energy left from the pre workout drink. So I am looking forward to my training day.

[tropo]

Tropo, i use the bodymedia for calorie tracking. I have not really looked for the calories burned during MAF as there are formulas to calculate them (can find it on the concept page).

When you've finished the row, just toggle through the different units by pushing the "change units" button on bottom left. You'll get average watts and calories burned. It's just a good number to compare one workout with another. I record calories burned and meters rowed.

[robblok]

Tropo, i use the bodymedia for calorie tracking. I have not really looked for the calories burned during MAF as there are formulas to calculate them (can find it on the concept page).

When you've finished the row, just toggle through the different units by pushing the "change units" button on bottom left. You'll get average watts and calories burned. It's just a good number to compare one workout with another. I record calories burned and meters rowed.

Tropo, ill look at it im sure its recorded on the log card somewhere. I can look back at all my rows as they are all recorded on the log card. Actually quite nice, as i told you you can even row against yourself on a previous day to see how things go.

Having the machine yourself you should really explore all the possibilities. I hope you get your machine soon. Might be cheaper for you depending what they charge you for the clearing. The tax amount i had to pay was lower in the end (got some back) but paid a bit more to the shipper. So all in all the amount i paid in total is about right.