Watching Children Play

[loong]

Groups of children often get together in our village and play the worldwide favourites of "Mothers and Fathers" and "Schools"

Whenever I see the children play these game it ALWAYS involves at least one of the children taking a long thin stick or a ruler and pretending (most of the time) to hit another child. Often, it goes too far and results in one child screaming because he/she is hurt because of receiving an actual whipping.

They say that play prepares one for real life and it does worry me.

Does it worry anyone else?

Edited June 7, 2012 by loong

[sirineou]

It is true that children can be very cruel to each other, but that's the way humans are,and Children will play.

I have seen children play in the soi in front of my in-laws home,(we don't have small children in our street) and they don't seem to play only the games you describe, and seem to be having a good time.

Having said that, it is also true that children take their cues from adults, and when adults resolve their differences with violence, they teach children to do the same. This I am afraid is not only a Thai trait but a human behavioral trait in general.

If the play results in excessive violence, Perhaps some adult supervision might be in order.

Edited June 7, 2012 by sirineou

[jamescollister]

Don't know where the OP lives, but have to sit in the front watching my 2 play and only time I see the kids hitting each other is when one takes an others bike. violent village where you come from, Is it in the south. Jim

[thequietman]

It is true that children can be very cruel to each other, but that's the way humans are,and Children will play.

I have seen children play in the soi in front of my in-laws home,(we don't have small children in our street) and they don't seem to play only the games you describe, and seem to be having a good time.

Having said that, it is also true that children take their cues from adults, and when adults resolve their differences with violence, they teach children to do the same. This I am afraid is not only a Thai trait but a human behavioral trait in general.

If the play results in excessive violence, Perhaps some adult supervision might be in order.

Bullies are and will always be a problem. My wifes youngest had real problems with a bully from the next village. they took the same bus to school and this is where it happened all the time.

As most young, weak and smart kids are, he was picked on constantly by the bully on the bus. He stole his lunch, he beat him up and just downright made his life miserable. It took him and me a couple of weeks to find a way to get back at this bully and when he found out what would get him back, he went all out.

He was on the bus where he normally would get his lunch stolen when he brought out a bottle that had what looked like small brown balls in it. He then, making sure no one was looking, secretly took from his pocket some milk dud like sweets and started popping them in his mouth as obvious to the rest of the kids as possible making "yum yum" noises.

The bully without asking snatched the jar from my stepsons hand and asked, "What's in the bottle that you are making such a big deal of?"

"Well, they're smart pills."

"Smart pills?" the bully said. He opened the jar and popped a couple of the foreign brown balls in his mouth.

"Pweeuuweppblahhh!!" he reacted. "What is this stuff? It tastes like rabbit turds!!"

"See, you're getting smarter already" replied the stepson.

Our dog killed the rabbits shortly after that but the stepson made the bully lose face and the bullying stopped.

Its important to teach them to stand up to bullying kids. If they dont they will end up backing off from most problems when they get older.

Edited June 7, 2012 by thequietman

[phuturatica]

Kids can be cruel. But I guess its all part of growing up in this country and culture.

[aneliane]

Children usually re enact what the hardship they had been through.

It is therapeutic and help them to move on.

If the trauma is too deep, they might in turn become themselves violent and use it as model to release their anguish

it is definitely something that need to be stopped, reported (parents/teachers) investigated (where did they get beaten up/see the beating..) and worked on by teachers/parents/psychologists;

Unfortunately TIT and children don't get help with that type of trauma.

[Beetlejuice]

Not really Thailand related except that the OP has said these kids are in Thailand, but in fact they could be kids anywhere.

Kids often play rough, it`s just normal behavior, nothing special.

[bina]

actually,

unfortunately or otherwise, corporal punishment by parent is still widely used at least in countryside, and most likely in town and city too. even hubby dearest has mentioned that there are several kids here on the kibbutz that could use a bamboo rod .. but he himself was bamboo'e by his father quite often (and there are some scars on his back from that too, until his mother went to a respected monk who called his father off the rod. they are very old fasshioned and beatings were seen as 'teaching and showing love by punishing for doing bad'.)

in those days, teachers also beat the kids and the kids were beaten by dad or mom after being beaten by the teachers - for being 'bad students'. it has made my husband unable, psychologically, to learn in any formal situation as he feels he is too dumb or 'bad'.

many many thais that ive met tell me that their mother or father would beat them if they did badly in school or did bad things. (tee!). while bamboo is the stick of choice, cuffing on the ears, rulers on hands, pinches and head smacks are also used.

because parents are trying to do their best, but lack the education or resources to try otehr methods, this is probably still the favoured method. i know that sis in law's second husband tends to be heavy handed with his step son (who now lives with grandma), but spoils his own little girl. notice heavy hands on kids by parents and by siblings among many families, and problem only worsened now with many of the fathers/males in the family working in cities or overseas. i thin kmany a frustrated grandmother or mother will be fast with a bamboo stick when tired and unable to cope with a teenager gone wild in the muubaan.

as many foreign teachers can claim to have witnessed, cuffing and boxing of ears still exits, as does the ruler on the hand smack.

most likely the children were not reenacting traumas of the past. they are replaying what they get most likely at home or school. and yes children are cruel no matter how PC we raise them to be. but if u have ever noticed, thai movies, at least the older ones, often have kids do very cruel things to eachother as part of their growing up . cant remember names but we watch a lot of old thai movies on youtube and that seems par for th ecourse in growing up . fat kids getting tortured, slow boy getting jokes played on him, fat girl being embarrassed, farm kids torturing city kid, city kids ripping off the slow issan dullard.... there is a set of movies with a girl as the prime figure that contain all this .. ah. remembered. BANYA. or something of that sort. that is only one example.

and picking up sticks seems an inborn trait. even here in our children's kindergartens (we have a 0 tolerance for violnce) kdis wil pick up sticks, twigs, to hit with, or pull hair or kick, or gang up on a seemingly weaker child,... violence is inborn. learning to be non violent is taught. not sure which is better, physical violence which hopefully is oug grown with age and verbal ability to express, or violence thru verbal ability, less visible but more deadly verbal and psychological abuse.

in our society children are number one, and most adults will stop and watch children play, or approach a child and talk or touch. only now are people here starting to teach our kids about private space etc. in mediterrean societies, touching

take up pedaphelia in threads other then this... as for child watching, i know that my husband also likes to watch kids at play, since mine are all grown and out of the house, and he has never had any with me, he loves babies and small children, and fortunately, here, we are a child obsessed society,so if you DONT stop to pat a child or admire a baby, u are considered odd or sociopathic. and adults are stil expected to stop and help a child that falls, or pick up a smal child crying for its parent in a play ground. to ignore is also bad form (by both male and females)

bina

israel.

and truely i wouldnt interfere too much wit the kids playing unless my family kids were involved, adn the best way to interfere is to divert them to a different game, not by yelling or protecting the kid getting hit. that kid will just get worse later out of your sight. btw, the chocolate balls is similar to my ex's story of when he was gtting bullied in chldren's house (old fashioned kibbutz)his father helped do a similar thing...

[theblether]

Whoever writes the Complete Guide to Perfect Parenting will be a Trillionaire.

In my opinion Corporal punishment has it's place in certain circumstances. I believe it has to be rare, sharp and over quickly to have the desired effect.

To my recollection, the first time I punished my son he was 4 years of age. He had been playing on a railway track with the local vagabond. I sat at dinner with him and explained how dangerous it was to play, I remember trying to explain the concept of death to him.

My son took one look at me and said 'I will do what I want'. I took him to his room and smacked him hard, not through temper, I remember being calm.

When I came back to the table my wife and daughter were in tears. My son never went near that railway track again. In fact it was 6 years before I had to lift my hand to him again. The rejoiner 'do you want a railway line smacking?' Lasted a long time and saved many escalations.

I tried to reason with my 4 year old, it didn't work. Corporal punishment may have saved his life. There is a time and place.

I believe it takes a village to bring up a child, I loved being taken out rabbiting, fishing, cycling and camping by various adults when I was a child. I recently attended a commemorative dinner where I met a lot of the adults that made those trips possible

. Outstanding memories provided by outstanding men.

I regard it as one of the disgraces of our times that media sensationalism of paedophilia has made good men look at every interaction with a child as a source of dread. Any man should be able to step in to prevent one child beating another with a stick. No questions asked, no doubt about it.

Any man should be able to watch over children without diseased minds thinking ill of him. To me it's a tragic bastardisation of that old saying 'all it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to turn a blind eye'.......has now been replaced with 'good men fear to look lest they are thought to be evil'.

Seriously, <deleted> has it come to? Children are being denied the social interaction, wisdom and companionship of good hearted men. This will not end well.

It takes a village to bring up a child, men are part of that village, and good men make life richer for children.

I know they did for me.

[cdnvic]

Off-topic posts removed.

[loong]

There have been some good replies to my OP, thankyou Blether, Bina, Guesthouse and the others for sensible contributions.

I think it sad that so many have suspicions that I am some kind of pervert. I don't go out specifically to "watch" children, but will stop and talk to the locals and there is usually a group of children playing. Often children come and play at our house, I have a 6 year old step-daughter, so there is nothing sinister about that.

The point of my OP was nothing to do with bullying between children. What concerns me is that the children can not play "Mothers and Fathers" without the children who are playing the parents role pretending to hit the "Children" with sticks. Similarly, when playing Schools, the "Teacher will hit the "Student"'s hand with a ruler.

This suggests to me that the children are growing up in an environment where it is considered normal and acceptable that adults will beat children on a regular basis.

When they play other games such as Shops or Food Vendor, there is usually no violence. Only games where they are playing at being adults responsible for children.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being PC, I do believe that on occasions a child needs and deserves a slap, but it does seem to me that violence as punishment is used excessively here. I regularly see crying children being chased by their mother wielding a bamboo whipping stick. Funnily, I don't ever recall seeing a child being pursued by his/her father in this way.

It also seems to me that the naughtiest children are the ones who get the most regular beatings. That would probably seem obvious, but what I mean is that regular beatings don't tend to improve the child's behavious.

[loong]

Wow, this topic has shrunk, not often I see over half the posts removed.

[theblether]

Wow, this topic has shrunk, not often I see over half the posts removed.

Cdnvic took a big stick to all the off topic posts.

Ehm....okay, even for me that's a terrible pun.

I'll get my coat....

[theblether]

Re your last point loong ( regular beatings ), I was visiting a friend when I lived in Germany, lovely couple and a great sense of fun. Anyway Mum was being harassed by her 3 year old daughter and she kept saying to the little one 'stop doing that or I'll kill you'.

I bit my tongue till it bled till I eventually cracked, and I said to Mum, 'what are you going to threaten her with if she does something seriously wrong? Decapitation? Disembowelment?'.

Stunned silence, my wife tried to hide below the couch, and Mum said, 'good point'.

Brutal language is worse than a beating, bruises will heal but mental scars last forever. ( I'm not underestimating the effect of violence though ).

If we create a brutal enviroment we will reap the consequences. What the OP is witnessing in the playground is learned behaviour being passed from generation to generation.

The best loong can do is make sure is wee lassie doesn't learn brutality. I'm sure she won't, and that's a start, one wee lassie, one wee boy at a time.

[MrRealDeal]

I have never seen this game in my village either , they mostly play soccer , ride bikes , or sit and chat ...... Sounds like another exaguration over how many kids play like this to me. I think you exaguate the effect as well ... I played cowboys and indians and didnt end up as either. Or end up hating one or the other. I think the word beatings is an exaguration as well , most Thai parents dont beat their kids , even the ones who played with sticks as kids.

Is it more likely that they would discipline their own kids later in life ? Probabbly but as you noted most of the time they pretend to use the stick not actually beat each other with it. And disciplining kids is not a bad thing contrairy to the popular PC beliefs. So the game played is teaching that if you dont behave yourself you might get wacked with a stick , it's teachiing that good behavior is better than bad and bad has concequesces sounds ok to me.

Does some kid wack some other kid to hard once in a while ? Of sourse ..... Then they feel bad and learn from that , and the kid that gets wacked to hard learns not ot do that to his kids as well.

Their are plenty of games kids play where pain is involved , we used to play some game where the loser would get his knuckles smashed with a deck of cards , or similar strange games involving knives , pool balls , ect. This game may involve some aspect of parenting making it different but it's still just a game where kids are basicly willing to get wacked , smashed , stabbed , crushed , sat on , or whatever else kids do for fun by their own choice so they can wack , stab , sit on , or crush some other kid ..... all in the name of fun !

Do they learn from these games ....... ? .... Yeah they learn eventually chasing girls, playing actual sports, or games is more fun than , wacking , crushing , stabbing , or sitting on each other ! Which is why as kids get older they play less of these games not more of them.

I would not worry about it so much if I were you it's kids being kids. You didn't expect children NOT to be doing silly things like this on occation did you ?

[MrRealDeal]

Bleather ...... stepping in when one kid is beating the other with a stick is fine if one kid is doing it to another without the others permission , if you get involved just because you don't like what 2 kids are doing for fun together by choice it's another thing ...... didn't you ever play some similar game where the loser got some painfull punishment ? Heck even adults do things like this for fun. If you don't like it don't play ! But stepping in just when one kid loses isn't exactly fair for him or the other players. If you play a game like that and lose you learn not to play anymore eventually !

It's not like they are playing russian roulette , they are asking to be the one who gets wacked once in a while just by playing and they know that.

[theblether]

Bleather ...... stepping in when one kid is beating the other with a stick is fine if one kid is doing it to another without the others permission , if you get involved just because you don't like what 2 kids are doing for fun together by choice it's another thing ...... didn't you ever play some similar game where the loser got some painfull punishment ? Heck even adults do things like this for fun. If you don't like it don't play ! But stepping in just when one kid loses isn't exactly fair for him or the other players. If you play a game like that and lose you learn not to play anymore eventually !

It's not like they are playing russian roulette , they are asking to be the one who gets wacked once in a while just by playing and they know that.

I'm not suggesting loong becomes a masked avenger, I did say that all he could do was make sure his own wee lassie didn't end up brutalized.

It's all a question of judgement.

[toybits]

The Children I have watch play are a bit more benign towards their playmates.

Edited June 8, 2012 by toybits

[toybits]

If I were given a second chance, perhaps, I would teach children that "LIFE IS NOT FAIR". Then when they grow up, they would not have a wrong picture about how things play out in the REAL world.

[thenervoussurgeon]

Wow, this topic has shrunk, not often I see over half the posts removed.

Yes i notice that mine was ,i was only taking the p--s as well not being serious, some people are so touchy,you want to give them a smack ,oops.

[bina]

but it does seem to me that violence as punishment is used excessively here. I regularly see crying children being chased by their mother wielding a bamboo whipping stick. Funnily, I don't ever recall seeing a child being pursued by his/her father in this way.

It also seems to me that the naughtiest children are the ones who get the most regular beatings. That would probably seem obvious, but what I mean is that regular beatings don't tend to improve the child's behavious.

which is what i said: many many families especially in the villages the fathers are absentee, either overseas or in big cities and the mothers are tired, they work clean hand wash etc all day and have little patience for their kids and are probably taking care of sister or brother's kids too; it could also be a grandmother... and even so, from what the guys here tell me, the mother is responsible for raising the child for the most part... dont forget until 25 years ago or so, the males stil went off to work, farm, hunt and the women still cleaned cooked washed by hand and tended their own gardens chickens etc for food... (not all, but the males emptying out of the villages started int he late 1970's when thais started going over seas for five year stints of work... i know workers here that are sons of thos e fathers (whom they only saw on a very part time basis, so mom and grandma raised the boys.). women now are also overseas or in cities so its the grannies or one sister raising many kids; w/o education on how to educate children, without help to handle boys or girls whose parents or step parents arent around much and dont know HOW to educate, only how to 'raise' the kids.

i saw alot of ear boxing when i was in ban chiang elementary school. i did NOT see any 'lets use our mouths to express our anger ' style of teaching,when kids hit eachother.

in general kids in villages seem to be treated as adults from a very young age, so up to a certain age they are protected by the mother, after that, it is the kids running in packs in the village.

interesting about villages raising kids, as up til recently it was the same as us. although our kids were all raised in houses from 1983, many of the communal aspects still stuck so that often any adult walking near a group of kids would reprimand the kids or ask after them. recently we have had meetings about our teenagers and the problem of 'aimless walking around late at night after school is over'- the 17 year olds were caught out by our spring (waaaay out in the orchards, no lights, no car) smoking cigarettes and just doing aimless hanging out . apart from the security problem many parents decided to start doing night patrols but then the argument started as to whether any parent can reprimand any kids and send him/her back to the teen living quarters or is each parent only allowed to reprimand his/her own child. the same question was raised when teh kids moved to their teen living quarters (like a dormitory living area with kitchenette, fridge boys and girls separate rooms but same living spaces)-- who was responsible for their cleaning up the area, loud noise at night, kids distrubing other kids, kids hanging out in one kid's room and smoking , some parents alow their kids to smoke others dont. ) we are still a small village, everyone knows everyone, any parent can go to any of the rooms and knock on a door and say hello to any child. we all do that. i report back to parent x that i went past y's room, and mention that i had told y and roommate to pick up all the garbage outside their door, etc.

its part of our village still somewhat communal life. however, most fathers , when going to daughter's rooms, tend to sit outside with the daughter and roommates, as opposed to going in to the room, since 'sexual privacy' and pedophilia have made the news much more so in israel recently.

i never dealt with kids when i was in the states but i was raised in major suburbia to new york jewish parents with italian friends, parents interfering with other kids was part and parcel in my growing up.

even in our hotel, if i see a smal lchild crying, while i wont pick it up , i will ask , 'to whom does this child belong'? i will stand by the child until a parent or sibling is found.

come to think of it, i will interfere when a kid is playing in ath e hotel lobby in a way that might injure an other child, but only mild interferance, and definately , nowadays i wont handle a child (pull the child away from an other) for fear of getting suited or something since israelis have learned from teh states....

ps. wanted to clarify that previoius to 1983 all children were raised in children's houses, visitng the parents for a few hours after work and before bedtime and on shabbat (saturday)... in the old fashioned kibbutz systems, so most adults here were raised communally . the new generations (children of those that were raised this way, also are still communally oriented to some degree. it is outsiders from the city, or third generation kids that are very 'private' and not as 'village' oriented. coming from this society since i was 21, i understand the small village /cooperative way of living, interfering, child rearing, etc.