Expats In Thailand: Is Your Goal Here To "Integrate" Into Thai Society?

[samsiam]

I still have not learnt to wipe my bum with my left hand and then eat dinner after it.....

I am afraid I will never be truly integrated.

I never say heloooooooo when answering the phone......

I am afraid I will never be truly integrated.

I never drive with my eyes closed.....

I am afraid I will never be truly integrated.

[F1fanatic]

A yes/no answer is impossible, for me at least.

When I first moved here then yes, I looked forward to integrating.

Now, a few years later, I accept that this will not happen and am no longer interested in integrating - I just do my best to ensure that I am not disliked!

Exactly the same here, except for the part of trying to be liked

I understand - but actually said trying not to be disliked!

Life can be a lot more difficult if you behave in a way that makes you disliked.

[F1fanatic]

I have no desire to integrate (it is impossible anyway) and I refuse to wai at 7/11 check out girls, waitresses/bar girls and children.

Regarding wai to children, parents try to teach their kids the good manners by asking them to "wai" you. Returning the "wai" with a big smile as a mark of appreciation is helping the parents in their effort.

I pretty much wai any Thai that wais me - forget all the "higher status" nonsense - but it is my theory that returning the wai of a small child just confuses them as they do not expect it from an adult.

I thought the same thing for a few years until I volunteered at an English language camp about ten years ago. I was presented an award by a student who waied me. I didn't return the wai at first and she told me under her breath to wai back. I spoke about this with one of the Thai teachers who said it is appropiate to return the wai of a student, younger person, hands held lower than their's,Thai children do expect the wai to be returned by an adult and to not do so is a sign that the adult has not intergrated into Thai society. It is basically rude to not return a wai by anyone in Thai society. Just don't wai first.

Including 7/11, Tesco staff etc. ? And yes, I did wai the 'supermarket' staff back when I first arrived....

Nowadays I only wai old people who deserve the exaggerated respect. Otherwise, bowing my head seems to work.

[thunder30101]

How can you integrate into a society that doesnt allow it ? Always remember your place here falang and you will be liked just fine by everyone. I gave up on it a long time ago and live my life the way I want same as anywhere else. The saddest fact about living here is as the infidel I am I have been treated better and accepted in muslim countries far better than the land of fake smiles.

[NBD]

For those saying the Thais won't let us integrate, what exactly do you mean? How would you like them to allow this?

[cardholder]

For those saying the Thais won't let us integrate, what exactly do you mean? How would you like them to allow this?

Have you been to Thailand ?

[inthepink]

For those saying the Thais won't let us integrate, what exactly do you mean? How would you like them to allow this?

Have you been to Thailand ?

I think it's a valid question.

Most Westerners don't seem to be able to accept the fact that they are an ethnic minority in Thailand, something that will never change no matter how much one tries to "integrate". At least we are not treated as some ethnic minorities are by a percentage of people in countries such as the UK and the USA.

[F1fanatic]

For those saying the Thais won't let us integrate, what exactly do you mean? How would you like them to allow this?

Ummm,

1) stop calling me farang - not only behind my back, but also when they know I can hear

2) stop charging me more than the locals

3) stop thinking of me as a 'millionaire' and therefore deserving of being 'ripped off'

4) and most importantly - think of me as a normal, decent human being who may have a different cultural outlook - but is still deserving of respect beyond 'money'.

[Ron19]

Well I've just spent half an hour reading all the posts (I'm a slow reader) and talk about "splitting hairs"!

While most of the posts were done yesterday...I spent all day and half the night at the local temple for the (I don't know the proper term) funeral preparations of my sister-in-law.

For some not familiar...she died on wednesday and will be cremated on sunday, but during that time someone (family) must remain at the temple 24/7 and the monks do a "service?" each night and food is served to everyone in attendance.

Sorry for the digression......but all the time I was there (and I will be going again later today) I found the locals trying to integrate me into their society rather than me doing the integration.

Ok I am the only farang in the village and of course stand out, but they were all trying to make me feel as one of them rather than treating me like an exhibit at the zoo.

So without splitting hairs....my vote would be a yes.

I have found your experience to be the same as I have experienced where I live.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Ron19

[rgs2001uk]

For those saying the Thais won't let us integrate, what exactly do you mean? How would you like them to allow this?

Ummm,

1) stop calling me farang - not only behind my back, but also when they know I can hear

2) stop charging me more than the locals

3) stop thinking of me as a 'millionaire' and therefore deserving of being 'ripped off'

4) and most importantly - think of me as a normal, decent human being who may have a different cultural outlook - but is still deserving of respect beyond 'money'.

Point 1 above, if you substitute, jek, kaek, Lao or Issan for farang, everything you have posted could just as easily have been written by a Thai.

[cardholder]

Well I've just spent half an hour reading all the posts (I'm a slow reader) and talk about "splitting hairs"!

While most of the posts were done yesterday...I spent all day and half the night at the local temple for the (I don't know the proper term) funeral preparations of my sister-in-law.

For some not familiar...she died on wednesday and will be cremated on sunday, but during that time someone (family) must remain at the temple 24/7 and the monks do a "service?" each night and food is served to everyone in attendance.

Sorry for the digression......but all the time I was there (and I will be going again later today) I found the locals trying to integrate me into their society rather than me doing the integration.

Ok I am the only farang in the village and of course stand out, but they were all trying to make me feel as one of them rather than treating me like an exhibit at the zoo.

So without splitting hairs....my vote would be a yes.

The important thing is that you feel 'welcomed' by this event.

I have experienced the same but in no way would I consider this as 'integration' - a degree of acceptance perhaps. That is not integration and I remain convinced that real integration is neither possible nor desirable.

In my experience the Thais (particularly family/local villagers) will welcome you at events such as these. Don't be surprised if the next time you see one of those villagers that they blank you completely. They will let you into their lives when it suits them, not you.

[PoodMaiDai]

I think you need to define exactly what Thai Society is, because from everything I see, it is nothing anyone should want to integrate into. It seems to be filled with lies, corruption at every corner, greed, more lies, do anything to not lose face, violence, unable to tell the truth, a total care for the outside world, xenophobia, and the list goes on.

If you can remove most of that stuff, it may be more pleasing. But currently, no thanks. And truth be told, no matter how well you *think* you integrate and *think* you have the respect of the locals, when you are not around, you're just another falang. And it's not your fault, they are simply bred that way. The only thing that is your fault is believing you can be one of them.

[cardholder]

For those saying the Thais won't let us integrate, what exactly do you mean? How would you like them to allow this?

Ummm,

1) stop calling me farang - not only behind my back, but also when they know I can hear

2) stop charging me more than the locals

3) stop thinking of me as a 'millionaire' and therefore deserving of being 'ripped off'

4) and most importantly - think of me as a normal, decent human being who may have a different cultural outlook - but is still deserving of respect beyond 'money'.

Point 1 above, if you substitute, jek, kaek, Lao or Issan for farang, everything you have posted could just as easily have been written by a Thai.

.... and points (2) to (4) ???

[NBD]

For those saying the Thais won't let us integrate, what exactly do you mean? How would you like them to allow this?

Ummm,

1) stop calling me farang - not only behind my back, but also when they know I can hear

2) stop charging me more than the locals

3) stop thinking of me as a 'millionaire' and therefore deserving of being 'ripped off'

4) and most importantly - think of me as a normal, decent human being who may have a different cultural outlook - but is still deserving of respect beyond 'money'.

1) That's just a word, like Asian or African, but for caucasians/people of European origin. Don't see how that really stops you integrating unless you demand total blindness as per the extreme end of political correctness. Is it racist to describe Mr T as "the black one" from the A Team?

I kind of know what you mean, and it does sometimes bother me when I'm in my wife's village. But then I look around and see that I'm a foot taller than most of the guys there, with a crazy colour scheme and feet like skis. I do stand out, and these are mostly farmers and rural folk, many of whom haven't even been to Bangkok let alone travelled the world. They are, in the very literal and non-derogatory sense ignorant. Seeing a foreigner is exciting and amusing, in the way seeing an eskimo or a Chinaman would have been amusing in medieval Europe.

2) Who? Where? I go to a supermarket and the prices are marked, same for everyone. I get a taxi it's on the meter. Even if I go to the fresh market the prices are usually written on. I've had a few people try it on in touristy areas, and small garages can be quite bad for it, but this happens to some degree in any tourist destination. Try getting a cab in London with an American accent and you stand a chance of being taken the scenic route. I hardly feel excluded from the country as a whole by this.

3) Your plane ticket here probably cost something like a years' income to the average shop worker or tuk tuk driver. It's hardly surprising that they will think you're well off. As for this being a reason to rip you off, again I've only felt this to any degree in tourist areas. I've also seen people trying to rip off and overcharge my wife, and other Thais who don't know the area they are in. These people are liars and con men, they don't care who they rip off, though they probably feel they stand a better chance with a foreigner.

4) I agree there's a materialistic streak about many Thais that can be distasteful by western standards, and there are certain Thais who see a farang as a source of easy money. I think this would be true in any developing country.

It may sound condescending, but if you base your entire perception of a country and ability to feel at home here on tuk tuk drivers and bar girls then you're not likely to have the best impression. If you walk around in holiday mode, Chang in hand and make zero effort to speak Thai then you will get this all the time. If you are married to a former bar girl who is half your age and from a desperately poor farming family, then you turn up in a brand new Fortuna then they'll quite likely think they've hit the jackpot, and make the most of it.

I've no idea whether any of this is relevant to you, but most of the people I know who are obsessed with Thais ripping us off at every turn have at least some elements of this, and I think it's likely they'd get just as ripped off carrying on this way at home.

Or maybe I'm being naive and getting fleeced all the time by smiling assassins who offer huge discounts to their own people, and go around marking up the prices in their shops especially for me and any other hapless farang fool enough enter their establishment?

[rgs2001uk]

For those saying the Thais won't let us integrate, what exactly do you mean? How would you like them to allow this?

Ummm,

1) stop calling me farang - not only behind my back, but also when they know I can hear

2) stop charging me more than the locals

3) stop thinking of me as a 'millionaire' and therefore deserving of being 'ripped off'

4) and most importantly - think of me as a normal, decent human being who may have a different cultural outlook - but is still deserving of respect beyond 'money'.

Point 1 above, if you substitute, jek, kaek, Lao or Issan for farang, everything you have posted could just as easily have been written by a Thai.

.... and points (2) to (4) ???

Re-read above, "everything you have posted (points 2-4) could just have easily been written by a Thai".

Havent even mentioned The Mon or Northern Hill Tribes people yet.

[JurgenG]

Ummm,

1) stop calling me farang - not only behind my back, but also when they know I can hear

You're a farang ? So what's the problem with that ?

2) stop charging me more than the locals

1/ Not everybody has a double price system. Chose where you go more wisely.

2/ When they see a pensioner with a 20 y.o., they want their share of the loot. Who can blame them for that ?

3) stop thinking of me as a 'millionaire' and therefore deserving of being 'ripped off'

See above

4) and most importantly - think of me as a normal, decent human being who may have a different cultural outlook - but is still deserving of respect beyond 'money'.

You can't just ask for respect, it's something that need to be earned.

Edited June 16, 2012 by JurgenG

[manarak]

Jingthing:

I don't integrate anywhere, including at my home countries and companies I worked at.

I will speak Thai, yes.

And if I meet Thais of my social level, if we have good contact, I will try to make friends.

But it won't bother me a lot if it doesn't work.

I don't need to be integrated anywhere to feel good.

[MrHammer]

Integrate is different than assimilate. No farang will ever be able to assimilate and why would you want to?

Integration for me would mean learning the language, understanding and respecting Thai cultural context, particularly not offending principles about which Thais place great importance. Also, not to be a burden on Thai society in any way. Besides that, you could easily live in a foreigner ghetto and still be integrated. It's similar to how East-Asians integrate into western society mostly. No one really has a problem with East-Asian immigrants. For an example of how not to integrate, look at those middle easterners and other muslims who openly refuse to learn the language, engage in practices which deeply upset their host nations (such as wearing a burka or restricting free speech) and are often a financial burden. So unless you want to be thought of as the equivalent of those people back home, it's wise to pay attention to the above.

You can integrate without becoming Thai in the same sense as you can integrate into Tokyo, but as Asia is not multi-cultural, you will never be able to be a national in a broad sense. But that is also only limited to the US as the worlds only true multi-cultural and multi-national nation.

[cardholder]

2/ When they see a pensioner with a 20 y.o., they want their share of the loot. Who can blame them for that ?

So you condone illegal practices like over-charging ?

You can't just ask for respect, it's something that need to be earned.

Respect in Thailand for foreigners is something that I doubt exists.

[JurgenG]

2/ When they see a pensioner with a 20 y.o., they want their share of the loot. Who can blame them for that ?

So you condone illegal practices like over-charging ?

No, but I live by the principle " Cheat me once, shame on you, cheat me twice, shame on me"

You can't just ask for respect, it's something that need to be earned.

Respect in Thailand for foreigners is something that I doubt exists.

I've no such problem. I can't say everybody likes me but 99% of the people I met on a daily basis have a perfectly correct attitude. And for the remaining 1%, I show them the feeling is mutual.

Edited June 16, 2012 by JurgenG

[maxme]

Jurgen that's a little bit naive don't you think?

The double pricing is scattered around the country for now but the one's who are doing int have caught on to the simple fact. If a place becomes a tourist attraction then it's a good place to rip people off because no matter what... they wanna see it. And if more and more places like this pop up, then, what is your excuse?

This doesn't help anyone, since the money will just go to a person or two which don't care what reputation they will get but it definitely hurts the Thai reputation overall.

"I've no such problem. I can't say everybody likes me but 99% of the people I met on a daily basis have a perfectly correct attitude. And for the remaining 1%, I show them the feeling is mutual."

So what you are saying is, by showing the Thais the same contempt we can all live happily together?

Edited June 17, 2012 by maxme

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Integrate is different than assimilate. No farang will ever be able to assimilate and why would you want to?

Integration for me would mean learning the language, understanding and respecting Thai cultural context, particularly not offending principles about which Thais place great importance. Also, not to be a burden on Thai society in any way. Besides that, you could easily live in a foreigner ghetto and still be integrated. It's similar to how East-Asians integrate into western society mostly. No one really has a problem with East-Asian immigrants. For an example of how not to integrate, look at those middle easterners and other muslims who openly refuse to learn the language, engage in practices which deeply upset their host nations (such as wearing a burka or restricting free speech) and are often a financial burden. So unless you want to be thought of as the equivalent of those people back home, it's wise to pay attention to the above.

You can integrate without becoming Thai in the same sense as you can integrate into Tokyo, but as Asia is not multi-cultural, you will never be able to be a national in a broad sense. But that is also only limited to the US as the worlds only true multi-cultural and multi-national nation.

> Asia is not multi-cultural

Singapore seems to strive for this, but I recognize that we westerners are more "outside" than the now-more-indigenous groups.

[canuckamuck]

You can integrate without becoming Thai in the same sense as you can integrate into Tokyo, but as Asia is not multi-cultural, you will never be able to be a national in a broad sense. But that is also only limited to the US as the worlds only true multi-cultural and multi-national nation.

The US refers to it's state of multiculturalism as a melting pot, Canada calls theirs a mosaic. Which one sounds more accepting of foreign ideas and culture. Both countries are multinational and have only a tiny percentage of native peoples.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

that is also only limited to the US as the worlds only true multi-cultural and multi-national nation.

I also disagree with this, the US isn't truly "multi-cultural" in the sense that most people have a high expectation that the immigrants should assimilate within one or two generations.

Proper multi-culturalism promotes acceptance and tolerance of keeping the subcultures intact, preserving the cohesion of the immigrant per-origin-country community, its first (now "foreign") language and traditions many generations into the future.

Perhaps a bit idealistic/optimistic and now declining in popularity, but still official policy in many western countries much more so than the US.

I think it's true to say from an economic POV the US is certainly the most successful largely because of the fact that it (generally and relatively speaking) welcomes immigrants and capitalizes on the diversity to drive creative innovation.

Which I think is the quite logical reasoning behind Singapore's attitude, compared to Thailand's less rational one - the former is driven by economic logic, while the latter is not.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Ummm,

1) stop calling me farang - not only behind my back, but also when they know I can hear

You're a farang ? So what's the problem with that ?

Really, nothing wrong with it. For friends and family, politely inform them that you'd prefer them to adopt the foreign habit of using names instead of role-attributes and they'll usually comply, might need to remind them from time to time, just explain it's one of those weird farang cultural differences and they'll humour you.

For the rest of Thai society suck it up and accept it, just a linguistic quirk, not meant to be disrespectful or derogatory.

2) stop charging me more than the locals

3) stop thinking of me as a 'millionaire' and therefore deserving of being 'ripped off'

4) and most importantly - think of me as a normal, decent human being who may have a different cultural outlook - but is still deserving of respect beyond 'money'.

Just associate with people that don't need money and you'll get most of the above most of the time.

Out in the marketplace it's up to you to be smart and ignore/filter out the scammers.

On #4 make sure you're doing the same, your #1 post seems to indicate you're letting your own cultural values inform your value judgments about people a bit too much yourself.

Note that respecting people based on money is a very strong and in-the-open cultural value here, and a mistake also exhibited to a large degree by many cultures, including a significant subset of posters here on TV.

Pretty hard to eradicate that one when it's being reinforced by mainstream media all day long, one of the main subliminal driving forces behind modern consumer capitalism worldwide. . .

Ever consider joining a monastery?

[TomTao]

Integrate is different than assimilate. No farang will ever be able to assimilate and why would you want to?

Integration for me would mean learning the language, understanding and respecting Thai cultural context, particularly not offending principles about which Thais place great importance. Also, not to be a burden on Thai society in any way. Besides that, you could easily live in a foreigner ghetto and still be integrated. It's similar to how East-Asians integrate into western society mostly. No one really has a problem with East-Asian immigrants. For an example of how not to integrate, look at those middle easterners and other muslims who openly refuse to learn the language, engage in practices which deeply upset their host nations (such as wearing a burka or restricting free speech) and are often a financial burden. So unless you want to be thought of as the equivalent of those people back home, it's wise to pay attention to the above.

You can integrate without becoming Thai in the same sense as you can integrate into Tokyo, but as Asia is not multi-cultural, you will never be able to be a national in a broad sense. But that is also only limited to the US as the worlds only true multi-cultural and multi-national nation.

Going on the differentiation you give between intergration and assimilation, I would have to change my no to yes. But in your last paragraph you say the America is the worlds only true multi-cultural and multi-national nation, I have to disagree with you on this point, almost every nation and culture is represented in Australia.

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[kerryk]

Integrate is different than assimilate. No farang will ever be able to assimilate and why would you want to?

Integration for me would mean learning the language, understanding and respecting Thai cultural context, particularly not offending principles about which Thais place great importance. Also, not to be a burden on Thai society in any way. Besides that, you could easily live in a foreigner ghetto and still be integrated. It's similar to how East-Asians integrate into western society mostly. No one really has a problem with East-Asian immigrants. For an example of how not to integrate, look at those middle easterners and other muslims who openly refuse to learn the language, engage in practices which deeply upset their host nations (such as wearing a burka or restricting free speech) and are often a financial burden. So unless you want to be thought of as the equivalent of those people back home, it's wise to pay attention to the above.

You can integrate without becoming Thai in the same sense as you can integrate into Tokyo, but as Asia is not multi-cultural, you will never be able to be a national in a broad sense. But that is also only limited to the US as the worlds only true multi-cultural and multi-national nation.

Going on the differentiation you give between intergration and assimilation, I would have to change my no to yes. But in your last paragraph you say the America is the worlds only true multi-cultural and multi-national nation, I have to disagree with you on this point, almost every nation and culture is represented in Australia.

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I would agree with that. When did the white only Australia policy stop?

[edwinclapham]

Integrate is different than assimilate. No farang will ever be able to assimilate and why would you want to?

Integration for me would mean learning the language, understanding and respecting Thai cultural context, particularly not offending principles about which Thais place great importance. Also, not to be a burden on Thai society in any way. Besides that, you could easily live in a foreigner ghetto and still be integrated. It's similar to how East-Asians integrate into western society mostly. No one really has a problem with East-Asian immigrants. For an example of how not to integrate, look at those middle easterners and other muslims who openly refuse to learn the language, engage in practices which deeply upset their host nations (such as wearing a burka or restricting free speech) and are often a financial burden. So unless you want to be thought of as the equivalent of those people back home, it's wise to pay attention to the above.

You can integrate without becoming Thai in the same sense as you can integrate into Tokyo, but as Asia is not multi-cultural, you will never be able to be a national in a broad sense. But that is also only limited to the US as the worlds only true multi-cultural and multi-national nation.

Going on the differentiation you give between intergration and assimilation, I would have to change my no to yes. But in your last paragraph you say the America is the worlds only true multi-cultural and multi-national nation, I have to disagree with you on this point, almost every nation and culture is represented in Australia.

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I would agree with that. When did the white only Australia policy stop?

1973 by the new Labor government?

[Trembly]

Deleted.

Changed my mind about having an opinion.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Trembly

[Ron19]

This sort of thing makes it hard for people wanting to intergrate.