The symptoms of the two victims - may they Rest in Peace ! - clearly point to insecticide - arsenic involved - poisoning.

did you just jump on the forum and not bother to read previous quotes? Arsenic has been dismissed as a possible poison. Rat poison with warfarin etc is the likely culprit.

They were murdered until proven otherwise.

Guyinthailand

You have hijacked the complete thread which is meant ti be for the open discussion of what may have occurred. You are basing your assessment on symptoms that have been provided by low quality newspapers from first on the scene poorly qualified people. Your obtuse nature, does your argument no good and you are displaying your self as having a really unpleasant nature. I appreciate everyone is passionate about this but maybe you need to calm down, apologise and move on.

All you internet doctors seem to be basing your assumptions on the following, initial statement provided by the police:

Forensic officials found vomit in the room, blood on their lips and gums and their fingernails and toenails were blue

Such is the track-record of accurate statements and forensic analysis by the Thai authorities in previous cases of suspicious death, allow me to offer another plausible, official statement:

'Forensic officials found pizza in the room, cheese on their lips and gums and their fingernails and toenails were rainbow-striped'

In other words, posters should please refrain from your Sherlock Holmes investigations, because the initial statement could be totally inaccurate in every single respect. Let's leave it to the Canadian authorities to request and conduct a full autopsy

RIP to the two sisters

Simon

Everything comes down to money in Thailand and you can be sure that priority will be to protect tourism in Koh Phi Phi than to get to the truth. Thais value face over truth while we westerners prioritize the other way round. Hence the food poisoning conclusion; anyone can get food poisoning so its a non story?

Gentlemen Jim posted

Guyinthailand

You have hijacked the complete thread which is meant ti be for the open discussion of what may have occurred. You are basing your assessment on symptoms that have been provided by low quality newspapers from first on the scene poorly qualified people. Your obtuse nature, does your argument no good and you are displaying your self as having a really unpleasant nature. I appreciate everyone is passionate about this but maybe you need to calm down, apologise and move on.

I disagree Jim these threads seem to devolve into a discussion that revolves around the latest conspiracy theory (I'm suprised nobody has mentioned drones and hellfire missiles) that posters have stuck in their brainpan, with no regard to any information posted or available.

Given that we have a previously unsolved case from years back I really think we need some answers and not the "Leo": crowd going on about dengue and sepsis and whatever floats in.....

Everything comes down to money in Thailand and you can be sure that priority will be to protect tourism in Koh Phi Phi than to get to the truth. Thais value face over truth while we westerners prioritize the other way round. Hence the food poisoning conclusion; anyone can get food poisoning so its a non story?

Spot on

All you internet doctors seem to be basing your assumptions on the following, initial statement provided by the police:

Forensic officials found vomit in the room, blood on their lips and gums and their fingernails and toenails were blue

Such is the track-record of accurate statements and forensic analysis by the Thai authorities in previous cases of suspicious death, allow me to offer another plausible, official statement:

'Forensic officials found pizza in the room, cheese on their lips and gums and their fingernails and toenails were rainbow-striped'

In other words, posters should please refrain from your Sherlock Holmes investigations, because the initial statement could be totally inaccurate in every single respect. Let's leave it to the Canadian authorities to request and conduct a full autopsy

RIP to the two sisters

Simon

Initial report may be the most reliable from here on out. That was before they had the foresight to spin it. I am sure the Canadian authorities will have a lot to work with andcevudence won't be compromised in the least. I am also sure that the Thais did a great job collecting and preserving fiber evidence, fingerprints or any information that might clue someone what happened in the hours before they were overcome

If the family had means, a private investigator and hiring an independent pathologist would be prudent. Somebody knows something and those girls were not by themselves before they returned to the hotel. Heck, I would almost be willing to spring for the PI and I have a good one who used to be an FBI agent.

The sad thing is, all of us posting here, with zero experience with such matters, have as good a chance of figuring out the cause of death as the Thai police.

But I guess that is what happens when you buy your way onto the police force.

I find your statement outrageously false.

I believe that we have a much better chance of solving it than the thai police.

The sad thing is, all of us posting here, with zero experience with such matters, have as good a chance of figuring out the cause of death as the Thai police.

But I guess that is what happens when you buy your way onto the police force.

I find your statement outrageously false.

I believe that we have a much better chance of solving it than the thai police.

I am quite sure that the police already have the crime solved. It is just they only tell us what will suit their commercial interests.

(I've seen the effect of Warfarin on Pest Control operatives .... it takes a huge dose to cause acute any symptoms in something as large as a human, and so it could not be accidental)

"The toxic dose of warfarin is highly variable.....Superwarfarins are extremely potent and can produce prolonged effects even after a small ingestion; as little as 1 mg in an adult can cause coagulopathy. ...Bleeding is the primary adverse effect of warfarin and superwarfarin toxicity and is related to the intensity of anticoagulation, length of therapy, the patient's underlying clinical state, and use of other drugs that may affect hemostasis or interfere with warfarin metabolism.^[8] Fatal or nonfatal hemorrhage may occur from any tissue or organ.".

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/821038-overview

One milligram

guyinthailand, you have definitely expressed your beliefs and opinions , I must say dogmatically.

You seem to be at particular odds with poster ttelise.

Poster ttelise has told us of his background and work experience to what he feels qualifies him to make the statments/opinions he has given.

In light of the vehemence of your posting, perhaps you would like to offer your bona fides to us mere mortals, who have been following both opinions. Maybe then we would be able to further inform ourselves as to who is 'blowin smoke'.

Look forward to reading your qualifications..

Guyinthailand

You have hijacked the complete thread which is meant ti be for the open discussion of what may have occurred. You are basing your assessment on symptoms that have been provided by low quality newspapers from first on the scene poorly qualified people. Your obtuse nature, does your argument no good and you are displaying your self as having a really unpleasant nature. I appreciate everyone is passionate about this but maybe you need to calm down, apologise and move on.

GentelemanJim: Do you have anything to contribute save for curmudgenly mutterings? You suddenly appear on this thread with nothing more than negativity.

What should I apologize for? Swatting down all the half-baked theories of how these women died and replaced them with an evidence-based appraisal? You, however, might apologize for posting an irrelevant rant that does absolutely nothing to propel the debate forward.

I eagerly await your contribution to this discussion.

Oh, wait! Here's one:

"(I'm suprised nobody has mentioned drones and hellfire missiles) that posters have stuck in their brainpan,"

Maybe then we would be able to further inform ourselves as to who is 'blowin smoke'.

Look forward to reading your qualifications..

You might try reading what I posted and then using reason to see if it makes sense.

Or do you think that someone with a certain degree is always right? Is that your idea of getting to the truth? Only rely on people with a degree? Is that it? You need someone with a degree to tell you what makes sense and what doesn't? You need someone with a degree to figure stuff out? You don't have a brain of your own?

The Thai authorities who are going to tell you this was all an accident surely all have degrees...and qualifications. Are you going to believe them just because they have 'qualificaitons'?

After all these posts, with detailed medical references, and you suddenly appear in this thread... to be...what...nothing more than 'contrary', with nothing of substance to say.

In other words, posters should please refrain from your Sherlock Holmes investigations,

Simon

Okay, Simon43, we'll clear anything we want to say with you first.

This seems to cause confusion. Septic shock can cause systematic organ failure which in turn promotes a DIC response causing bleeding in mouth.

Septic shock doesn't present with bleeding gums. These women had bleeding gums.

"Symptoms of sepsis are often nonspecific and include fever, chills, rigors, fatigue, malaise, nausea, vomiting, difficulty breathing, anxiety, or confusion."

http://emedicine.med...168402-clinical

No mention was made of them vomiting blood. Moreover, DIC is a RARE thing and EXTREMELY unlikely to happen to two people at the same time. Vomiting and bleeding from the gums can indeed be found in DIC but

"Disseminated intravascular coagulation is rare, but it may occur as a complication of severe blood loss, severe infections, and severe burns. Other causes include head injury, liver disease, sepsis, and adult respiratory distress syndrome."

Did the women have 'burns, head injury, liver disease, sepsis, ARDS' that could have caused DIC?

(no)

http://www.freemd.co...on/overview.htm

Maybe then we would be able to further inform ourselves as to who is 'blowin smoke'.

Look forward to reading your qualifications..

so, Gonzo the Face, I see you weigh in with an insightful comment on the poisonings.

After all these posts, with detailed medical references, and you suddenly appear in this thread... to be...what...nothing more than 'contrary', with nothing of substance to say.

ttelise has given us some indication of his medical training and/or background..... but you seem to shirk at you giving us the benefit of your training to make your points and argument...... When asked to give your qualifications so we can better judge who may have a more sensible position, all you offer in typical smart ass..... So....

Aaahaaaa just as we all thought ........Timeshare salesman ...... now it all adds up, all mouth and no substance ..... well that takes a lot of credibility out of your comments in a lot of peoples eyes , I am sure.

Another appalling case of nil journo inquisitio disease

[No investigative journalism]

I feel incredibly sad & tragic for the family and friends of these two girls. The light has gone out of their lives permanently. Loosing your children at home is bad enough but to loose them overseas is doubly hard.

I hope they can get their girls home to rest as quickly as possible and I wish them much much strength & fortitude along the way.

There will be family looking for answers in the days / months to come and I sincerely hope they manage to ascertain the true cause of their deaths.

Okay, Simon43, we'll clear anything we want to say with you first.

Not required. You can make all manner of guesses as to the cause of death. But you may be making a fundamental error by assuming that the statements about vomit, bleeding gums and blue fingernails are gospel truth

now it all adds up, all mouth and no substance ..... well that takes a lot of credibility out of your comments in a lot of peoples eyes , I am sure.

Well, you certainly answered the question about whether you have a brain of your own to figure things out.

Truth, logic and reasoning don't need a 'degree', gonzo the face.

Please keep us informed when the Thai 'authorities' with 'qualifications' start spewing drivel...so we will all be sure to sit up and pay attention and nod our heads...because...because Gonzo the Face says those with 'degrees' are always right.

you may be making a fundamental error by assuming that the statements about vomit, bleeding gums and blue fingernails are gospel truth

Yeah, the Thai police made up the story of the bleeding gums to throw us off the path.

Food poisoning can mean basically anything ingested by a person contained in food. Sounds to me like a chemical has somehow found it's way into the food / water they have consumed knowingly or not. The poor parents need to get their bodies onto a plain to Canada ASAP and get a proper autopsy done to avoid falling into that miserable category of sad relatives of deceased loved ones who do not have a clue how they died but certainly do not believe what the foreign cops have told them.

now it all adds up, all mouth and no substance ..... well that takes a lot of credibility out of your comments in a lot of peoples eyes , I am sure.

Well, you certainly answered the question about whether you have a brain of your own to figure things out.

Truth, logic and reasoning don't need a 'degree', gonzo the face.

Please keep us informed when the Thai 'authorities' with 'qualifications' start spewing drivel...so we will all be sure to sit up and pay attention and nod our heads...because...because Gonzo the Face says those with 'degrees' are always right.

Thats nice....

those with degrees are not always right, but those without degrees are many times more often wrong......

Oh and you must have forgotten...... your qualifications to be so right in your opinion as to disavow others??? you forgot to post them.... come on now you want us to believe you, tell us why your point is correct and others are not.

We are all trying to arrive at what could have possibly happened, and even a blind pig finds some acorns once in a while.

The true and correct suggestion just may put someone on the proper path for the real answer.

you may be making a fundamental error by assuming that the statements about vomit, bleeding gums and blue fingernails are gospel truth

Yeah, the Thai police made up the story of the bleeding gums to throw us off the path.

They....its in their cunning plan to lull the perps into a false sense of innocence.

I think the main point that should be taken with respect to the food poisoning is that the Police Chief called it this prematurely without waiting for a toxicology report from a coroner.. That much, we know is bogus, and can't be debated..

now it all adds up, all mouth and no substance ..... well that takes a lot of credibility out of your comments in a lot of peoples eyes , I am sure.

Well, you certainly answered the question about whether you have a brain of your own to figure things out.

Truth, logic and reasoning don't need a 'degree', gonzo the face.

Please keep us informed when the Thai 'authorities' with 'qualifications' start spewing drivel...so we will all be sure to sit up and pay attention and nod our heads...because...because Gonzo the Face says those with 'degrees' are always right.

Thats nice....

those with degrees are not always right, but those without degrees are many times more often wrong......

Oh and you must have forgotten...... your qualifications to be so right in your opinion as to disavow others??? you forgot to post them.... come on now you want us to believe you, tell us why your point is correct and others are not.

We are all trying to arrive at what could have possibly happened, and even a blind pig finds some acorns once in a while.

The true and correct suggestion just may put someone on the proper path for the real answer.

We need some confirmation here.....do you mean the degrees that are bought...or the ones that are earned ??

now it all adds up, all mouth and no substance ..... well that takes a lot of credibility out of your comments in a lot of peoples eyes , I am sure.

Well, you certainly answered the question about whether you have a brain of your own to figure things out.

Truth, logic and reasoning don't need a 'degree', gonzo the face.

Please keep us informed when the Thai 'authorities' with 'qualifications' start spewing drivel...so we will all be sure to sit up and pay attention and nod our heads...because...because Gonzo the Face says those with 'degrees' are always right.

Thats nice....

those with degrees are not always right, but those without degrees are many times more often wrong......

Oh and you must have forgotten...... your qualifications to be so right in your opinion as to disavow others??? you forgot to post them.... come on now you want us to believe you, tell us why your point is correct and others are not.

We are all trying to arrive at what could have possibly happened, and even a blind pig finds some acorns once in a while.

The true and correct suggestion just may put someone on the proper path for the real answer.

We need some confirmation here.....do you mean the degrees that are bought...or the ones that are earned ??

Love it

The true and correct suggestion just may put someone on the proper path for the real answer.

If you'd bother to have read the entire thread you would have seen I already gave you the 'true and correct suggestion' about 60 posts ago where I began demolishing the fanciful notions of arsenic, food poisoning, methanol, mushrooms, cholorine, regular insecticide, Dengue fever, DIC, septic shock, etc etc,.

Until proven otherwise, murdered by rat poison (warfarin/coumadin, etc, i.e., anticoagulants).

(I've seen the effect of Warfarin on Pest Control operatives .... it takes a huge dose to cause acute any symptoms in something as large as a human, and so it could not be accidental)

"The toxic dose of warfarin is highly variable.....Superwarfarins are extremely potent and can produce prolonged effects even after a small ingestion; as little as 1 mg in an adult can cause coagulopathy. ...Bleeding is the primary adverse effect of warfarin and superwarfarin toxicity and is related to the intensity of anticoagulation, length of therapy, the patient's underlying clinical state, and use of other drugs that may affect hemostasis or interfere with warfarin metabolism.^{http://emedicine.med...821038-overview}

^{One milligram}

^{I will try not to be rude, but you are out to lunch. Warfarin poisoning is not indicated from the unreliable statements now circulating. The bleeding of gums associated with the poisoning refers to when the subject brushes his/her teeth and there is bleeding. If there had been reported nosebleeding, then perhaps warfarin might be implicated. The reported observation was blue finger condition, which is very, different than the purple feet and toes condition that accompanies warfarin poisoning. At the autopsy, a bladder fluid sample will be taken from the deceased. If it is dark brown and stinky then you have an indication. As well, the feces of the deceased will be examined. If it's dark red or black (common to any disorder where blood is discharged such as colon cancer) then you have an indication. However, if the subjects were spraying vomit, then there is a strong likelihood that they would have been dehydrated. One of the reasons why someone might have suggested food poisoning is that there may have been dilute feces discharged at death in addition to the vomit. Typically, diarrhea is an indication of a GI disturbance. It is quite unlikely, that anyone was going to state this as the mention of such a state is a taboo subject. The fact of the matter is that I can open up my compendium and come up with 101 contributing factors, but I would be a fool to claim any one as definitive. IN THE ABSENCE OF FLUID ,AND TISSUE ANALYSIS ALONG WITH A PHYSICAL AUTOPSY, NO ONE CAN MAKE ANY CLAIM AS TO HOW THESE DEATHS OCCURRED. I don't like to shout, but the speculation and the postering in this thread is wrong and ignorant.}

Must agree, without reliable evidence, such as professional autopsies, the rest is worthless speculation.

“There was neither signs of fighting, nor robbery, but we found many kinds of over-the-counter drugs, including ibuprofen...", said police Lt. Col. Jongrak Pimthong.

let me guess - ibuprofen package was empty?

they took them all in their pain... so, stomach pain, the same symptom as in the previous cases...?

but even without pain, one would take it probably...

and even if the previous phi phi cases had NOT bleeding gums, blue nails, then it still could be the same source (of poison). a poison might show different (side-)effects depending on the content of the stomach (e.g. drinking alcohol, or taking supplements, otc), and maybe even on the blood type etc...?