How To Avoid Questionable Characters

[DUMPSTER]

Sex tourist?

[Guest endure]

Blimey, who's been feeding DUMPSTER red meat again? You stick it to 'em, boy!

[DUMPSTER]

Actually I'm a vegetarian

[jdinasia]

JD, thanks for that!

Was just trying to share my experiences. I was not trying to speak for Thai people. There are a lot of us non-Thai Asians out here who are respectful of where we are and how we may be competing for the small pool of nice GWMs out there.

And nice GWMs in Thailand are few and far to come by. Unlike Dukkha, time unfortunately is of the essence, and some of us just don't want to waste time with dealing with trash.

JD maybe you could share how your thai partner meets nice GWM like you..

Was thinking about your rules ... several mentioned tourists and tourists spots ... and LDR's bein hard etc etc ... are you looking for a LTR in BKK? or just some %%%?

[Ijustwannateach]

Btw, TC- I'm kind of cold on ol' "Squarehead" myself, but Junichiro Koizumi had his moments- before that awful "Elvis" incident in the states.

JD's right- it seems unclear from your post what you're looking for using those rules. Do tourists automatically count as wasting your time, or are they ok as long as they pass on other counts?

"Steven"

[noctiluca]

Just a brief note to add to this post, I like TopChinese's "rule" set, too. Nice to read the opposite views on this board. Actually, I think both the Justwannateach's and TopChinese's points are very valid and could be interchangeable. I mean if you just change the subject, it would be universal.

Just my curiosity, and a bit off topic here, would BKK, or Thailand as a whole, make an easier place for GAM or GTM to find GWM? I mean what set BKK differently, if any, from other places, particularly from Asian nations? I would imagine Hong Kong or Singapore would be modern and sanitary enough to attract foreigners, especially GWM. I don't mean to say I don't know the answer, but I am curious, perhaps, there are something else I never thought of.

[DUMPSTER]

Just a brief note to add to this post, I like TopChinese's "rule" set, too. Nice to read the opposite views on this board. Actually, I think both the Justwannateach's and TopChinese's points are very valid.

Questionable characters are only questionable because those questioning are as questionable as those they are questioning.

In other words it takes a dodgy person to question another dodgy person. If you were not dodgy you wouldn't need a list.

Those attracting the cheats and unsavory characters have not been as innocent as they think they have. They are not innocent victims, no such thing. Of course admitting this to themselves or others is another matter.

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks, Noctiluca. It's nice to hear from a *Thai* that my points (and TC's) make sense. I'm sure there are other Thais and foreigners here who agree, but don't wish to subject themselves to the harassment of the peanut gallery that has been trying to derail this thread.

I think the large tourism industry here would make it easier to find GWM for fun, but would make LTR's and serious relationships harder. But TC would be the one to ask.

"Steven"

[TopChinese]

Back home in Singapore, there are a lot of GWMs who would be in a better position to have a relationship with me. Due to my situation and lack of effort/time/interest here, I haven't really given things a shot here. Not to say that Singapore suffers from a slow gay scene now that we have tons of gay bars and at least 6 sex clubs/saunas. The few GWMs I've met here are too full of themselves or are already eagerly snapped up by the hungry fellow GWM admirers the moment they step into Changi Airport.

IRWT has rightfully pointed out that there is a larger pool of GWMs in BKK. Here I am in Babylon, pondering my response to this thread, while enjoying the spectacular views of the hordes of hunky Euro tourists in their sexy speedos on their summer holidays. There is a critical mass for fun here, more chances for brief encounters that could lead to so much more. While waiting for Mr Right, I'm sure he won't mind if you work out some of your repressed angst...

Having said that, I've only managed to meet a handful of GWMs who are living in BKK. Since I'm no juicy relationship material myself, this has lead me to suspect that the best GWMs are all hidden away somewhere safe, away from Soi 4 and the other usual places. Am open to suggestions...

Edited August 15, 2006 by TopChinese

[pukkagent]

Heh heh heh... I always love the way you tell that one, PB...

I should also mention that my advice in this thread is NOT aimed at tourists or those who just want to have fun. For that group, a little illusion is just what the doctor ordered- you won't have time to step off Cloud 9 to see what's holding it up, and why should you bother?

I'm writing here for those who will be able to live long enough in Thailand (esp. Bangkok) to want the best chance of some sort of real, possibly lasting, relationship with a good guy.

Checking Up On People

As PB indicates, you can't/shouldn't take people just at their word on important matters. You should double- and triple-check their stories (with subtlety and flair, please) until you are satisfied that they pass these checks routinely. Here are some ideas for accomplishing this:

1. Talk To His Friends

It's hard enough for one man to keep a web of lies under control; you can hardly expect his gossipy friends to know what you're supposed to be told about him. A friend of mine recently found out from his date's friend that his date was actually married with children (a little thing which he had neglected to mention in their dating over a few months). This is one reason it is so important that you meet your candidates' friends- otherwise you'll never have any easy way of cross-checking his claims about himself.

2. Get To Know His Family

This is more or less along the same lines as the friends, only his family will know him so much more in some ways. If you are the umpteenth farang to visit their humble abode, perhaps that's something good for you to know.

3. Ask To See His Photos

He's a gay man- of course he has photos. See if there's anything that verifies his life story, his place of work, his education, and his past relationships. Ask clever questions about photos that give you any bad vibes.

4. Account For Lost Or Vague Time

Most real working Thais have to budget their time- they work at least as hard and probably harder than most of us do. They can't just suddenly take a couple of weeks off and "head to the country" every holiday. If this happens a lot, it may be a sign that you need to take a serious, hard look at whether the stories about employment are really true.

5. Ask To Visit His Office

A lot depends on what he does, but you can usually fit yourself in as some kind of English teacher or other educational associate.

6. Ask To See His Documents

Preferably after you have already shown him your own passport or other official documents (always good conversation pieces) which verify all of YOUR basic id info, ask him to show you yours... no, not that, naughty boy, you've probably already seen that- his Thai id card and/or uni id and/or company ids. It's always fun to look at these anyway, since they inevitably show your date looking even younger and cuter than he is now.

If HE has a passport, definitely peruse it carefully when you have a chance.

7. Surprise!

If the relationship is otherwise progressing fairly well, make a surprise visit to your date's home (if you are not living together) some weekend when you are not already scheduled to meet. After all, for Thais, dropping by unannounced is not considered rude. See how it goes.

8. Ask Your Friends About Him, And Listen

Love is blind, and lust is pretty darn near-sighted, too. Talk to your friends and see what they think of the guy. Remember that most of your friends will be too polite to give a direct answer about anything negative, so listen carefully and read between the lines.

9. Go To A Dodgy Place and See Whom He Knows

It's a bad sign if half the MBs in DJ Station come up to greet your guy and sponge a drink off him. Of course, it's a bad sign if half of them do the same to YOU, too, so be careful with this one!

10. If Overhanded Doesn't Work, Try Underhanded

Somewhat infamously, in my thread about my ex-, O., I relate a case in which through various excuses O. made it almost impossible for me to do the less extreme forms of checking him out- his friends were straight and I wasn't allowed to meet them, ditto his family, no regular job, etc., etc., etc. So I was forced to do some detective work- secretly looking in his bags and even his wallet when I could. Now, if you've followed my advice so far (which I didn't in regard to O.) you won't even reach this point, because you've chosen someone with a job and gay friends who isn't in the closet- right? right? But if you've let yourself get hooked by someone who just seems a bit too secret, start checking out his stuff for the truth and get yourself unhooked if you can.

"Steven"

Having a boyfriend sounds like a lot of effort! Being a 21 year old English lad in Thailand, most of the men I see around, are old perverts, who want vacuous relationships with fake-designer clad queens - consciously or subconsciously. I think there are far more nicer people that are Thai, who are hidden away - even money boys with potential - than there are farangs who come over here to take advantage of the culture gap, or maybe I'm just a cynic!

[dukkha]

Pukkagent, it seems to me that some farangs make it an effort for themselves with lists and vetting processes, I wonder if that is their approach in their own culture...one meets people, one likes people, one does not like people but to constantly need to indulge in analysis of questionability etc seems like a strange way to get on with people regardless of their ethnicity etc...cheers Dukkha

[Guest endure]

Having a boyfriend sounds like a lot of effort! Being a 21 year old English lad in Thailand, most of the men I see around, are old perverts,

You ought to be careful making statements like that. All 21 year olds think the same. 30 years later their own words come back to haunt them

[Guest endure]

I've always found it sound advice to avoid people carrying checklists

[DUMPSTER]

Back home in Singapore, there are a lot of GWMs who would be in a better position to have a relationship with me. Due to my situation and lack of effort/time/interest here, I haven't really given things a shot here.

Maybe there's your problem or they just aren't into you

Not to say that Singapore suffers from a slow gay scene now that we have tons of gay bars and at least 6 sex clubs/saunas. The few GWMs I've met here are too full of themselves or are already eagerly snapped up by the hungry fellow GWM admirers the moment they step into Changi Airport.

That sounds like one of those bitter guys who aren’t quite good looking enough to find a GWM b/f so they resign themselves to find sex, in some dark hole, in places like Babylon. Then they berate GWM for being trash and full of themselves because they don't find them attractive enough to be their b/f.

That’s their defense mechanism to protect themselves from constant rejection and hence the need for a protection list.

this has lead me to suspect that the best GWMs are all hidden away somewhere safe, away from Soi 4 and the other usual places. Am open to suggestions...

Try this mantra..

They're just not into me, They're just not into me, They're just not into me, They're just not into me,

[Papa_Lazarou]

this has lead me to suspect that the best GWMs are all hidden away somewhere safe, away from Soi 4 and the other usual places.

Safely in my closet where nobody can find me.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Papa_Lazarou

[TopChinese]

They're just not into me, They're just not into me, They're just not into me, They're just not into me,

And hence my mantra... their loss... their loss ... their loss....

Different strokes for different folks.. not many people will be happy with Mr Perfect anyway. Thai or farang. Too boring.. and who knows, there just might be a better cock out there.

[DUMPSTER]

And hence my mantra... their loss... their loss ... their loss....

Just another way to protect oneself from rejection. Convince yourself it's their fault instead of looking at yourself.

there just might be a better cock out there.

Seems like you prefer being single. Enjoy your search.

[dukkha]

A better 'cock' not a better 'person'...ho hum Dukkha

[jdinasia]

Again guys .... lighten up .... TC is a tourist when he comes to Thailand ... for the most part he's limited to other tourists and the guys that hang at Babylon ... not many options for him other thn sex!

[PeaceBlondie]

Again guys .... lighten up .... TC is a tourist when he comes to Thailand ... for the most part he's limited to other tourists and the guys that hang at Babylon ... not many options for him other thn sex!

Right! And if having a long-term relationship, where sex is just an important part, is the number one thing, and you can't get #1, then having to settle for #2 ('just sex') has to be a whole lot better than whatever's in third and fourth place.

And...as I recall from the dim, recent past, even an old farang GWM can get #2 in a good sauna.

As for lists, I guess we should all avoid anyone who carries a list on which we don't qualify.

[Ijustwannateach]

Yup. I think a few people here have trouble distinguishing between a human being (myself) and a list of information on the internet, which once again (look at the subtitle, folks) is intended for newbies who are looking for new people to date and don't know the possible pitfalls.

It is not intended as a long term substitute for experience, common sense, or spur-of-the-moment romance/whimsy. It is also not my personal flowchart for dating.

///Edited by PeaceB.///

Everyone has standards, whether they articulate them or not. Some people would rather engage people socially on an emotional level; some people do more conscious analysis of others- there are all kinds of personality types. But I doubt there's anyone on this thread who would date *anyone* with no conditions at all about *something*. My list is an aid to those who may need help in sorting out the type of person who's more likely to be financially or otherwise problematic to date, by my own definitions. I feel it is more help to give specific advice such as I write here than to generalise by recommending such non-meaningful blurbs as "be nice."

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

did I miss "be nice" somewhere above?

[jdinasia]

With all this 'vetting' going on, it's a wonder that some of you have any friends at all

cheers to that!!

I am so glad that I don't need to paint the Thai people in my life into ugly little boxes. Strangely i haven't had all the problems that so many people seem to bring onto themselves.

Basically skip all the rules that you have seen in this thread .... and instead be a decent human being. Treat the people in your life with respect and insist on the same! Honor their privacy. Take real time getting to know someone! Dating ... not marraige! "Marraige comes after time!" Remember to have real standards for your own behaviour and that of the people you have in your life! Invest in love slowly!

If you take your time and get to know someone ... you'll avoid all these petty petty petty 'vetting' things entirely. How? In relationships that grow over time you just get to know the real person ... it is a natural process!

Maybe he was referring to the post above ... though nowhere in it does it say "be nice"

I FIRMLY stand by the post above <pardon me for having the hubris to quote myself!!!!>

[Ijustwannateach]

Let's play an old disco song as a break here- "you're so vain... I bet you think this post is about you, you're so VAIN....I bet you think this post is about you, 'bout you, 'bout you..."

[sorry, couldn't resist- though my singing voice is rusty!]

"Steven"

Edited August 16, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[jdinasia]

it must be a good day for fishing .......

[PeaceBlondie]

This topic has caused too much contention, and once again, it started getting way too personal. We've got one more chance, guys, and if there's another insult (either an obvious direct insult, or a reasonably perceived and obviously limited to only a couple/few people), we can just close the topic and talk about something else, leaving the allowable posts to be seen.

[dukkha]

Thank you for your moderation PB. Dukkha

[pukkagent]

Pukkagent, it seems to me that some farangs make it an effort for themselves with lists and vetting processes, I wonder if that is their approach in their own culture...one meets people, one likes people, one does not like people but to constantly need to indulge in analysis of questionability etc seems like a strange way to get on with people regardless of their ethnicity etc...cheers Dukkha

A deep answer so my post! Didn't understand it at first to be honest. I got a boyfriend! I looked on here coz i thought it'd be interesting coz i have had a few problems. Think I've been out too late tonight. I didn't think I sounded like I was questioning people based on my/their culture, but i just think it's funny how even on this website there is a link for 'Thai brides', so all I was saying is that people sometimes want idiots for boyfriends, and vacuosity in their relationships. I don't know many people that want to even have a proper conversation in England with their own partners. I see it in England all the time with my friends who I love to bits! I'm a farang who tries 'too hard' apparently, but then I've always been stung when:

I don't think things through;

when i don't try hard enough with the right people, and

try too hard with the wrong people.

I think it's never a fast and easy route really to the better relationship. I dont regret anything though, I'm a better person for all the mistakes I've made, including the horrible boyfriends i've had in the past. I can't believe the simple things that I ignored when people were doing some awful crap to me! You know in your gut when something or someone isn't right when you first meet them.

Thank you first of all for replying, i guess I do just take people as I find them, but I do listen to whats being said about them. I do try to think about all the hidden agendas, be they farang or khon Thai. It's not an 'indulgece' as you put it, it's a necessity for me, and just letting my doubts slide is an err. No smoke without fire, and all that. It doesn't matter where you're from, but i guess maybe I feel sorry for people who take advantage of 'farangs' (financially basically; and lying to them about their lives, etc), because they do so for their survival and because it's what they're seeing and being taught to do. If the farang was such a dupe then maybe he knew all along what he was getting himself in for...

Don't know why, but I have a lot of pity for people who do bad things to other people, because I'd do as I'd be done by - and I think to do otherwise shows a great lack of self respect... Of course they'd not be let into my life coz I'm not going to throw my pearls upon pigs, who'd just trample on me in return, but i guess you have to experience it to know what it's like, and to avoid it, but most of the time your instinct tells you what you already know, and what your seeing is what you get most of the time!

I see such mismatched couples sometimes, it's a bit depressing, because being a wee willy winkie (21) myself, I think, "god, is my boyfriend with me for the right reasons..." And that's because of our age difference. Being from the same country, and at first almost speaking a different language because there is an eleven year gap between me and him, makes me a bit sceptical about men who date younger guys who speak a completely different language, from a different culture, and where even I am having trouble adjusting to the life. You're not talking about dating boys, most of you wouldn't date a student if you stuck to the rules guns, ha ha! By your standards you probably wouldn't have dated me, although I've always had a job till I've came to Thailand, and I think I'm not an average 21 year old... Though I wasn't anything special when I met my partner when I was 15...

But seeing a board where people are actually constructively vetting out people because they want to have better, safer and more fullfilling relationships is actually a bit nice to see! I looked at the post because I've had trouble with certain people who like to latch on to my company, and I've had a gut feeling telling me that something isn't right about them, but that's my friendships I'm making. I believe that you'll be judged by the company you keep, so I'm watchful over who I let into my life, because I've had bad experiences in the past at home. I've been with my partner for about 6 years... Where are all you nice guys hiding though!? It's hard to find a hard working, responsible man with a clean slate and no baggage in the London area these days you know.

i write too much. Good night everyone, think i might have a look around the other threads. Love how active the discussion in this site is. Hope no one takes anything I say to heart or personally. I don't think I'm criticizing anyone in particular...

XX

[jdinasia]

Just a note from your first paragraph ..... the 'advertisements' glued to these pages are placed by google based upon the content of the page. <<ie. Thai Brides>>

Edited August 16, 2006 by jdinasia

[Ijustwannateach]

Pardon me, but I feel I should explain one or two things here. Pardon me also if I discuss material which was deleted, because if I do not discuss it I'm not sure quite how I can apologise appropriately.

In a recent post, I wrote something which was interpreted by someone (I don't know who exactly) as being insulting or offensive to someone else. It's going to get way too complicated if I keep using more levels of pronouns, so I'm just going to spell it out a bit more.

I said that it seemed to me certain people were upset about this thread because their partners might not qualify under all the rules or behaviors (including [read above pages] rules such as "don't date students," and "don't date people from the Silom area"). I said that such posters' partners were to the best of my knowledge, EXCEPTIONS to this rule set. In other words, NOT QUESTIONABLE CHARACTERS. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, most of the persons on this thread (whether they are arguing against my thread or not) have excellent and admirable boyfriends, which is what, in a convoluted way, I was saying. However, I thought they might feel defensive because I wrote in this thread that one should not, *for example*, seek boyfriends in Silom, when in fact one of them might have met his boyfriend on Silom, or broken one of the other rules. In other words, they wound up with excellent partners despite not following my recommendations.

I did not mention any specific posters or which rules their boyfriends might theoretically not fall under, I feel I should point out, in that post. Nor do I now.

I don't know if it was that my English was not clear enough. If that is the case, though, then I must apologise most sincerely and humbly for the misunderstanding, because I would certainly not deliberately insult the partners of anyone posting on this thread. I have the greatest respect (indeed, awe) for most of your partners, as far as I know about them. I hope that whoever felt insulted will at least PM me to accept my apology for such a misunderstanding.

Anyway, whether because they could not follow the English I used or for other reasons, the post was thought by someone to be "insulting" and they requested an edit. To be fair, it is apparent from reading the thread that PB agreed that the edit was necessary, although he did not ask me for an explanation beforehand. So perhaps my English is not so good, after all. Mea culpa. I hope my explanation in this post makes it clear enough that I was not and am not trying to insult or offend anyone with the comments I made in that post- just the opposite, ironically. And I apologise once again for any misunderstanding.

I think, though, it is more likely that the complaint results not from linguistic problems, but from an atmosphere of mistrust and antagonism which has grown up in this subforum, centering in a small group that appears to have little better to do in the forum than attack me when possible and be as disagreeable as possible otherwise. Threads in which I post an opinion quickly center on me, when I am not the topic, and spin out of control. It should be apparent who the members of this small group are. I feel that if I were not the object of such negative attentions, my comment would have been read carefully and taken in the correct spirit.

Even when I attempt to say good things to this group or about them, those compliments are twisted by paranoia into suspect comments (as in this thread) or ignored. When their viewpoint has advanced so far in the forum that one of my best friends has begun to see things their way, and believe that I would make a comment that, if it were the comment I was interpreted as making, would be truly a low, offensive, and insulting kind of thing to say about anyone's partner- a kind of comment that, even when I have felt I had good reason to say it (which is not in this situation), I have never said to anyone either on a forum or in person, out of simple compassion if not politeness- then it is time to take stock of things.

I no longer wish to be grist for the aggressive banter of this dysfunctional small group, and I am abandoning this subforum. Craftwork was right to do so earlier for more or less the same reasons. I will consider returning when (if) I feel that conditions are more suitable for mature and polite discourse, and less like an elementary school lunch room.

I hope that a number of you outside the group I mention will not mind if I stay in touch by PM re. your comments here, because I do enjoy so many of your posts. It is a shame that childish bullying goes on even within the gay world- we get enough of it from outside.

Thanks to most of you here in the gay subforum for your kind attention over the last couple of years.

"Steven"