Wearing Out Our Welcome

[Bucknaway]

On my last trip to Thailand... I think it was my 4th or 5th visit.... Many Thai shared with me their feelings on "Farang" More than one guy told me that becasue most Farang think that their money make them better and the boss, he makes him pay the most.

I think they all complained that when it came time to service, they were treated 2nd to visitors and their money. When it came to dating, the best looking guys, they could not have because they want "Farang Money".

True I am an American Black Man.... A very proud American I might add.... But none considered me to be a part or party to those farang who are my brothers in blood, land and country.

On this trip, not once did I have to pay, tip or give "Cab Fare" to anyone I had sex with or spent time with. Even the guys I met at DJ station and Babylon invited me to dinner or drinks and paid for it while refusing my willingness to pay.

I also met a guy from Bali that told me about the problems and raceism a non-thai asian faces when working and living in Thailand, but that should be in a different post.

Anway................

I am interested in the thoughts of others.......

Have you ever tried to see things thru the eyes of a Thai?

[Steve2UK]

To start by answering the question: yes - a lot. And it's not always a very pleasant or comforting view......

I'm fortunate enough to have become good friends with a number of Thai during my stays in LOS - to the extent that they have sometimes overcome the innate Thai instinct not to criticise. Some of what I heard made me feel almost apologetic about being a farang. From the time of my first visit, I always felt uncomfortable with the higher status that my (white) skin "earned" me.

Coincidentally, I had a conversation with a middle class Thai recently during which he let drop that he often had to wait to get served while just-arrived farangs got all the staff's immediate attention - "they will tip more". Sure, it has a lot to do with relative wealth perceptions but there generally seems to be more than that going on. I'm a Brit and the UK (England, at least) is still somewhat class-ridden but nothing like as bad as in Thailand - which seems almost colonial at times. Someone else I was chatting with actually said to me in all innocence "Oh, you'll be treated like a god in Thailand"............. it had me wincing. I'm just not cut out to be a sahib, a tuan or an effendi.

If anything, I think it's probably worse on the straight side of things - i.e. farang male with Thai female; that combines both the racism (think about it) and the sexism. Add the relative wealth factor and (IMO) you have a dangerous cocktail that can all too easily inflate the ego of your average (often very average) farang.

At the risk of looking like I'm trying to polish my halo here, I'll say that I do try to guard against the view that my money and my skin automatically make me "better" - but it can be a struggle and I admit that it's sometimes too much to sustain. Maybe it's my own ego hang-up, but I want to be seen and thought of for who I am as a person - not for what group I happen to come from.

[Ijustwannateach]

On the contrary, I am constantly annoyed in Thailand by waiting my turn in line patiently behind all those ahead of me at stores/restaurants, only for a Khun Ying type to march up self-importantly to the counter in front of me at the last minute and get served before me by the intimidated low-status plebe at the cash register. On a couple of occasions when this happened, I pointedly walked out of the store (putting all of my erstwhile purchases carefully on the floor first). In the few stores where I have returned after doing this, such poor service has not been repeated. I don't know yet if that is a sign of my message having been received or simply coincidence.

Foreigners are not the only people by far who abuse their status, and I would say they are not the ones who are the most frequent offenders- as with all kinds of offences and crimes in Thailand (as I never tire of saying), the most frequent abusers and the most common criminals are- big surprise- Thai.

Foreigners stand out, of course, and everyone can think of "that one rude guy" they saw, who sticks out in the memory more because he was a foreigner among Thais. But when my ex, O., complains about people in Bangkok, he says he *hates* the hi-so Thai Chinese population here, and has no similar comments to make about the foreigners (and he's quite outspoken).

"Steven"

[ProThaiExpat]

Spot on IJWT. In non-falang venues, I have seen so much "line jumping" by Thais and staff willingness to take care of them, that I must dismiss the practice as "cultural". I applaud your "package on the floor" approach. I likewise terminate my wait by leaving, if in doing so I can make any "economic impact", knowing full well that the salaried staff involved could "care less".

In non-tourist venues, most falang I have seen are most polite, certainly more so than I see in western courntries, even to the point of "waiing" staff inapproapriately. In fact, indulging in a dangerous "generality", my guess is that in non-tourist venues, Thais are especially kind to falang as an act of reciprocity, not status. I see few Thais treating their own as nicely as falang do.

[Buki]

true. I am non-thai asian and I still feel racism with some of the thai. I always get a frown from some of the receptionist from some offices. That irked me mostly. Back in my home country, when somebody cuts the line, poor and rich, always get mouth lashing from all the people in the queue. If I was there, I could have said something very fast and in English. I am very polite to all thais and non-thais, but when someone gets out of the boundaries of courtesy and respect, thats a different story.

But i have a thing for rude farangs also. I know this russian woman, who was so rude with the waiter because there wasnt any English menu. OMG! Is that their fault that She can't understand Thai and she should think that SHE is in Thailand, not in MOSCOW. We should know our places.

[rcalsop]

On my last trip to Thailand... I think it was my 4th or 5th visit.... Many Thai shared with me their feelings on "Farang" More than one guy told me that becasue most Farang think that their money make them better and the boss, he makes him pay the most.

I think they all complained that when it came time to service, they were treated 2nd to visitors and their money. When it came to dating, the best looking guys, they could not have because they want "Farang Money".

True I am an American Black Man.... A very proud American I might add.... But none considered me to be a part or party to those farang who are my brothers in blood, land and country.

On this trip, not once did I have to pay, tip or give "Cab Fare" to anyone I had sex with or spent time with. Even the guys I met at DJ station and Babylon invited me to dinner or drinks and paid for it while refusing my willingness to pay.

I also met a guy from Bali that told me about the problems and raceism a non-thai asian faces when working and living in Thailand, but that should be in a different post.

Anway................

Having spent a lot of time around Asia and Arabic countries the biggest suprise for me was the continuous and ( but not always obvious ) colour prejudice based totally on skin colour . Far greater than any western judgement I had seen .. It did and still amazes me how important this is .. even the adverts ... Whitre and wonderfull Cream / Fair and lovely Cream etc .

Basically the darker the skin the lower the class and the more stupid .. My daughter attending an international school she looks very Thai frequently comes home crying because they have called her the BLACKY .. ansd she is not that dark but loves swimming and tans very easily so is always darkish . In Bangladesh is saw active descrimination against only marginally darker skinned people who were refuse promotion only on their colour ... It is not a farang thing it is pur colour ...the Chinese Thai is small footed and washed out white never in the Sun or the beach without covering ...White is money / intelligence and to be sought after .

I am interested in the thoughts of others.......

Have you ever tried to see things thru the eyes of a Thai?

[ChrisP]

I'm with ProThai...

I think that outside of the tourist/club/bar scene, the vast majority of farang behave extremely well, and really try to be nice to our Thai hosts...

My bf and I often spend time in areas and stores where there's virtually no farang.. and I often see Thai's behave badly too - queue jumping, etc etc.

Btw, I witnessed an amazing display of Thai "jai-rawn" (hot heart) last month in Silom. Two Thai women market stall-holders were arguing over the route of an electric cable between their stalls... kicking at it, and SCREAMING at each other.. for some considerable time! Other Thai's were staring open-mouthed for a second.. then just grinned and walked on.

(And you thought it NEVER happened..!!)

My bf is quite happy to lose his temper when he's in the mood.. even in public!

ChrisP

[Buki]

I'd love to lose my temper here. But i can't, the thais seemed to be so smiling all the time.

[Ijustwannateach]

Yes... it is sad that, however much racist/status-based annoyance we Anglo-Saxon types may think we get, it never even comes close to the prejudice that so many Asians have to face when they are in another Asian country besides their own- or when they come from the "wrong" part of society within their own country.

"Steven"

[Steve2UK]

Ummmm.... can't help feeling that the thread has got a tad hung up on queue-(line-)jumping - which I don't think was uppermost in the OP's mind (perhaps he'll re-appear and confirm/correct my impression).

With specific regard to getting served, I was thinking more in terms of, say, sitting at tables rather than standing in line....... i.e. does the waiter/waitress head for the farang table before the Thai ones? So this is less about who might "push in" and more about to whom the Thai staff attend first and most (given the choice).

More than that (and this is my main take on the OP's post) - does the farang mostly get and therefore perhaps come to expect more deference, special/preferential treatment in general situations etc because of the perceived superior wealth and/or social status? As I mentoned in my earlier comment - think sahib, colonial etc.

Yes, there's the powerful mai pen rai factor - but I do find myself wondering whether at least elements of jealousy and resentment aren't sometimes lurking below the surface and behind the smile........ just as much as when a hi-so Thai is lording it.

Having mentioned "lording it", it occurs to me that it's still the case in the UK that as "Lord Steven" (or serious celeb) rather than plain old Mr Steve, a fully booked restaurant would probably suddenly be able to "find" me a table. Same same with the "beautiful people" being waved through into Studio 54 as was and presumably LA celeb haunts as still are? I'm exaggerating to make a point - but are you all saying that there is no status/class divide between average farang and average Thai - and therefore never any negative feeling when seen "through Thai eyes"?

Edited January 16, 2006 by Steve2UK

[Ijustwannateach]

^That's true... although part of it is not exactly expecting deference, but I think having a greater sense of self-worth (which is possibly the opposite of kreng jai in some situations?).

For example, the Thai teachers at most schools I've worked at are more or less slave labour. If the director wants to hold a meeting the afternoon of the same day without prior announcement, or have them come in for the next 10 Saturdays to work, they'll do it. Most of the foreigners I work with will simply refuse to comply- and since it's harder to find replacements for us, usually we get away with it. This results in bad feeling among the Thai teachers sometimes (why do we have to come in and they don't) but, as a colleague of mine once put it, I didn't come to Thailand to fight their social battles for them. As a group, they could take collective action if they wanted to. As foreign teachers, we don't get stuck-up or snobbish about it- but maybe some of the Thais might see it that way.

I think that the cases in which foreigners blatantly lord it over Thais are fairly limited, but it's true as Steve2UK says that the Thais themselves may interpret things through a light of envy and resentment- for example, that we are wealthier, able to live in another country (but don't), etc.

I've heard of very rude individuals among foreigners, but I think they are the usual misfits who would be badly behaved anywhere.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

Actually, last night something happened that did make me feel a bit low. I was in a Tesco's, shopping for a few snacks and cereal and a bottle of soda. It was just after work, so I was fully decked out in working attire- tailored clothing, nice tie, MP3 player going-

and I realised the fellow in front of me in line, who was wearing very dirty, worn sandals and a threadbare shirt- who didn't seem to be too clean- was buying a single large bag of rice.

"Steven"

[the gent]

That was me........and your music was too loud.

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, with your English skills, I don't think you should be having so much trouble, then. Get a job!

[PeaceBlondie]

That's okay, Steven, at least you had your priorities right - snacks, cereal, and soda! I'm surprised that a Thai has to go to Tesco, just to buy rice.

If I stopped by Tesco right after work, the sales clerks instantly spotted my Tesco-Lotus 85 baht tie.

I think I get deferential treatment at my bank. But the Thai young woman in front of me at the ATM yesterday left her receipt. Her balance was 87 baht, mine was 180,000 baht.

[boybrat]

my pet peeve in bkk:

being stopped in hotel lobbies after a night of partying (in me party clothes) by security who asked for my id when i was a PAYING guest. hate that. hate hate hate!!!!!! The same crap had happened to me more than once, all in different hotels.

most embarrassing when once, the security stopped ME and asked for some id and waved my GUEST (a blond surfer dude wth abs to die for) through. i was NOT happy. raised a stink and got an upgrade!*titter*

Edited January 19, 2006 by boybrat

[busgen]

I'm absolutely stunned!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In another topic: Where is gay life in Chonburi city? I obvious wrote some statements concerning gays and guys in Thailand, that were for some people a reason to call me everything: from ignorant racist to bitter farang.

What I read in this forum......written by the same people who called me a racist and a bitter person.........has everything to do with the same point of view: Thai culture and Thai style.

After browsing this TV forum for some days now, I only can say this: the Thai culture is a very special culture. A culture in which religion and Royal belief play an enormous important role. In order to understand the Thai culture and Thai style of life you must try to know more about the religion and the Royal influence. Unfortunately, the Thai is not "allowed" to discuss those items in public so you'll have to do it book or browse wise.

If you have a problem with one or more Thais it is basically caused by misunderstanding. I've learned a lot and I learn every day.

If you have a problem with Thai authorities, than it is because you weren't aware of some regulations which appear to be not-logic.

Thai do not easyily que up; Thai wear a helmet to avoid a police fine....not for their safety; Thai men work in gay bars (being straight) for the easy money; Thai don't fear death (Budha takes care!!); Thai are very tolerant until ............; Thai are all very corrupt, but they do it in public and everybody knows; Thai always say OK and Can do!, they will deal with the consequences; I can go on and on............and please understand me..........all the above doesn't bother me anymore.

If I hold the door for a Thai who is right behind me, if I give way (or better: don't take it), if I'm in a que with a full shopping basket and I let the person behind me go first with her tube of toothpaste and I hear a soft Khob khun Kaa/Khrub, than my day is all right.

I don't try to improve the world on my own, I just try not to forget what my culture and my parents taught me!!

We are nothing more than a guest in this country. And that's how I behave. We were basically not invited, we invited ourselves. Of course most of us are more than welcome and that has not only a financial reason. Sometimes (luckily not every day), I think about the minority groups in my home country. About their perspective of their new 'home' country, because that's what we are.........part of a minority group.

I think, that some posters who called me a racist earlier, will no call me something like: underdog type of thing........well up to you!!

[DUMPSTER]

We are nothing more than a guest in this country. And that's how I behave. We were basically not invited, we invited ourselves.

Oh another "we are only guests" post. . Boy, It’s like those letters you read in the Bangkok post that start, “first let me say what a great honor it is to live in you fantastic country” and the go on to point out some inadequacy about the place. I just want to vomit when I hear that.

Well actually I work here. I pay tax here. I have a partner here. If my partner moved to my country, people wouldn’t call him a guest. I live here and I have a life here and the only reason you and others say we are guests is because of the nationalistic BS that exists. People who are so wrapped up in protecting a piece of land in a flag of red white and blue. Only the ridicules law here calls me a guest and that law exists here and in other countries to keep those who have gained power in power. We live on planet earth, we just happen to have been born on a certain patch of it. So what if that patch is called Thailand or the U.K. Just because I don’t have a piece of bureaucratic paper saying otherwise I will never consider myself a guest because I’m contributing to this country the same as someone who was born here, if not more so.

[dukkha]

Ya just a rich bitch PB, how about a loan?...Dukkha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[jdinasia]

Busgen .... if you cannot see the differences in the posts in this thread and the one you hijacked about Chonburi ... well then I am horribly sorry!

That being said you will fit in nicely with about 1/2 the folks in this forum so no big deal

[busgen]

We are nothing more than a guest in this country. And that's how I behave. We were basically not invited, we invited ourselves.

Oh another "we are only guests" post. . Boy, It’s like those letters you read in the Bangkok post that start, “first let me say what a great honor it is to live in you fantastic country” and the go on to point out some inadequacy about the place. I just want to vomit when I hear that.

Well actually I work here. I pay tax here. I have a partner here. If my partner moved to my country, people wouldn’t call him a guest. I live here and I have a life here and the only reason you and others say we are guests is because of the nationalistic BS that exists. People who are so wrapped up in protecting a piece of land in a flag of red white and blue. Only the ridicules law here calls me a guest and that law exists here and in other countries to keep those who have gained power in power. We live on planet earth, we just happen to have been born on a certain patch of it. So what if that patch is called Thailand or the U.K. Just because I don’t have a piece of bureaucratic paper saying otherwise I will never consider myself a guest because I’m contributing to this country the same as someone who was born here, if not more so.

Well Dumpster, it seems that you have an abo on every post in this forum. You work here? Obviously you have nothing better to do than bother people with your so called wisdom.

I have a job here too, I have a partner here too, I pay tax here too and I contribute in the same way as all the other people.

I am still a guest and I (and you) should behave that way. If our hosts want to get rid of us, Dumpster, they don't need much to do so, contributions or not.

BTW; BS is that bullshit?

[busgen]

Busgen .... if you cannot see the differences in the posts in this thread and the one you hijacked about Chonburi ... well then I am horribly sorry!

That being said you will fit in nicely with about 1/2 the folks in this forum so no big deal

Thanks JD, than at least I've integrated somewhere!! To which half fo you belong, JD?

I maybe don't see the differences in some posts JD, but I have noticed that a lot of posters write with a split pen (same as speaking with a split tongue).

[DUMPSTER]

Well Dumpster, it seems that you have an abo on every post in this forum. You work here? Obviously you have nothing better to do than bother people with your so called wisdom.

I have a job here too, I have a partner here too, I pay tax here too and I contribute in the same way as all the other people.

I am still a guest and I (and you) should behave that way. If our hosts want to get rid of us, Dumpster, they don't need much to do so, contributions or not.

BTW; BS is that bullshit?

busgen, it is a forum and so people post and then people reply to those posts. Get the idea?

If you want me to say what a great post and I agree with all that you say, well i'm sorry if I don't see it your way then I will say so. If I agree, I will say so. I'm not saying I am right or wrong just posting my experiences, as you are. If you are so sensitive that you can't take anothers take on life, then I would suggest you don't post.

How often I post should be of no concern of yours really. As you may note I have around 200 posts to my name, where as others are well into the 1000's and some more. For all you know, I may well sit at my computer all day but I dont. I have been on holiday for 12 weeks which is why I've posted more often but now i'm back to work so my posts may well be fewer. I do take time to make an effort an post regularly. I wish others would do the same as it would make the gay forum more interesting. maybe the other posters are busy or are not interested as much, each to their own. These last few days there has only been 3 of us posting. I can't help that. If somebody wanted to say something then I guess they would.

As for being "guests" and those in charge kicking us out, well I doubt they would ever consider such a move. The economy is so intertwined with that of the west that I just cant see it happening. Then there are all the mixed marriages and the children of those marriages. These are going to increase as more westerners settle here. In time I can see the authorities relaxing the laws more in favour of "guests" but like most things here it won't be next week or next year but maybe within the next decade.

[busgen]

Well Dumpster, it seems that you have an abo on every post in this forum. You work here? Obviously you have nothing better to do than bother people with your so called wisdom.

I have a job here too, I have a partner here too, I pay tax here too and I contribute in the same way as all the other people.

I am still a guest and I (and you) should behave that way. If our hosts want to get rid of us, Dumpster, they don't need much to do so, contributions or not.

BTW; BS is that bullshit?

busgen, it is a forum and so people post and then people reply to those posts. Get the idea?

If you want me to say what a great post and I agree with all that you say, well i'm sorry if I don't see it your way then I will say so. If I agree, I will say so. I'm not saying I am right or wrong just posting my experiences, as you are. If you are so sensitive that you can't take anothers take on life, then I would suggest you don't post.

How often I post should be of no concern of yours really. As you may note I have around 200 posts to my name, where as others are well into the 1000's and some more. For all you know, I may well sit at my computer all day but I dont. I have been on holiday for 12 weeks which is why I've posted more often but now i'm back to work so my posts may well be fewer. I do take time to make an effort an post regularly. I wish others would do the same as it would make the gay forum more interesting. maybe the other posters are busy or are not interested as much, each to their own. These last few days there has only been 3 of us posting. I can't help that. If somebody wanted to say something then I guess they would.

As for being "guests" and those in charge kicking us out, well I doubt they would ever consider such a move. The economy is so intertwined with that of the west that I just cant see it happening. Then there are all the mixed marriages and the children of those marriages. These are going to increase as more westerners settle here. In time I can see the authorities relaxing the laws more in favour of "guests" but like most things here it won't be next week or next year but maybe within the next decade.

In my believe, a forum should be a medium where people can share their experiencies. An experience is a peronal thing. An event with a certain outcome, may be differently experienced by all visitors or attendants. A political situation in a country is for some threatning for others a stabil situation. If this forum is for people to tell other people about their experiences, than you should add YOUR experience and not your JUDGEMENT on other peoples experiences.

For the "kicking out the guests". I wasn't talking about the investors, I was talking about you and me The 'normal' people, trying to make the best out of things. Even if you have the feeling of being integrated into Thai society, there is always a way to get you out.

[LindsayBKK]

On the contrary, I am constantly annoyed in Thailand by waiting my turn in line patiently behind all those ahead of me at stores/restaurants, only for a Khun Ying type to march up self-importantly to the counter in front of me at the last minute and get served before me by the intimidated low-status plebe at the cash register. On a couple of occasions when this happened, I pointedly walked out of the store (putting all of my erstwhile purchases carefully on the floor first). In the few stores where I have returned after doing this, such poor service has not been repeated. I don't know yet if that is a sign of my message having been received or simply coincidence.

Foreigners are not the only people by far who abuse their status, and I would say they are not the ones who are the most frequent offenders- as with all kinds of offences and crimes in Thailand (as I never tire of saying), the most frequent abusers and the most common criminals are- big surprise- Thai.

Foreigners stand out, of course, and everyone can think of "that one rude guy" they saw, who sticks out in the memory more because he was a foreigner among Thais. But when my ex, O., complains about people in Bangkok, he says he *hates* the hi-so Thai Chinese population here, and has no similar comments to make about the foreigners (and he's quite outspoken).

"Steven"

I agree Steven, I have been to shops also or to pay bills and had Thais cut infront of me. I think it just depends where you go. I do not expect any special treatment nor should any farang living here, equal for all as they say. But I think like any big city you will always get some poor service. I have lived in Sydney where the people are so rude they just don't care, all they worry about is Me, Me, Me and Money,Money,Money. And you can forget having to smile. Thailand has lost it's title "The land of smiles".

[jerry921]

I was interested in the thread based on the topic, but it seems to have gotten off the rails almost immediately and deteriorated from there.

What are the things WE say and do that irritate Thais?

That wouldn't count what serving staff does, or what rich Thais do. And I don't think the Thais care whether we post in the forum or not.

I was hoping the thread would go beyond the basics of "dont stink", "hold your temper and keep smiling" and "don't point with your feet".

[jdinasia]

Language is where we wear out our welcome ....

More so with the people that are peripheral to our intimate life than with those closest to us or those we just meet once. Some Thais are sooo kind and considerate that they look past our lack of polite speech and are nice enough to give us the benefit of the doubt most of the time.

[PeaceBlondie]

27 posts so far, very little of it about "Gay in Thailand," although perhaps all the posters were (doesn't matter much).

Okay, if I may steer the subject closer to gay men in Thailand, do WE wear out our welcome by walking around with our boyfriend, by living in the neighborhood without having women to our house, etc.? I don't think that matters in Thailand, except maybe to homophobic Western expatriates who thought they were coming to a totally heterosexual country (!).

The Thais in this decade tolerate us, far more than they tolerated boyfriends 20 or 30 years ago. My boyfriend and I watched "Brokeback Mountain" this week, which opens to the date, "1963." Later he said, "It was same, in Thailand, same time." Being gay here is much easier now than it was in the 1960's and 1970's.

As the lady's cigarrette commercial used to say, "You've come a long way, Baby."

[DUMPSTER]

Okay, if I may steer the subject closer to gay men in Thailand, do WE wear out our welcome by walking around with our boyfriend, by living in the neighborhood without having women to our house, etc.? I don't think that matters in Thailand, except maybe to homophobic Western expatriates who thought they were coming to a totally heterosexual country (!).

I couldn't agree more with that PB. I've never had a problem with Thais here. But dip your toe into, say, the Pattaya forum or as I did jump straight in, and you will find loads of homophobic abuse from a bunch of insecure expats, who, of course, will swear blind that they are as tolerant as any Thai. To me they are no different to a pack of dogs baying for blood. It is they who have no respect, for gays, Thais or themselves. It is they who have worn out their welcome.

[Guest endure]

A long time ago (in a place far away...) there was a discussion about the tolerance of homosexuality on Usenet. One of the participants was a guy called Ajahn Samart (one of the REALLY good guys) who worked at Chiang Mai university. He kept telling us that homos weren't well tolerated in Thai society and he was unable to understand why we disagreed until it was pointed out to him that the Thai lack of tolerance amounted to a bit of gossiping behind your back whereas western intolerance often involves you having your head kicked in (as has happened to me more than once )