The Official Phonetic Transcription System Is "Unfriendly" And Unhelpful To Foriengers

[Nepal4me]

I have lived here in Thailand for 10 years and can read Thai reasonably well. I know all the rules and can read, albeit slowly. Since I can do this, I, even after 10 years never fail to be amazed at the different transcription systems, especially the Official Royal transcription system or whatever it's officially called.

Examples of poor transcription:

J = CH and CH = CH

B = BH

P = PH

G = K

K = KH

T = TH

W = V

Not to mention transcribing DTaw DTow and BPaw BPlaa, which is obviously more tricky since we don't have those sounds in English. But why did we have to use up the T and P letters for them instead of letting T and P represent T and P sounds? If they are going to invent new combinations like BH, TH, etc, why not use them for the non-English consonants.

Not to mention the official system's pedantic (for lack of a better word) method of adding in the unpronounced consonants. eg. Su-wan-a-poom = Su var na bhumi.

This system has even caused the Thai people to miss pronounce foreign words. Taiwan is DTaiwan (if I can use DT as the symbol for DTaw DTao). This list of mispronounced words is endless and is purely a function of the poor transcription system, it is not derived from the Thai language.

Even for the purposes of international marketing, Shouldn't something as important as Sawati be better than Sa-waas-ti? Zero people around the globe unless they happen to be in the know, could pronounce our airport correctly. That just seems non-sensible.

[David48]

Seems and interesting question ...

But might be lost in translation in the General Forum.

[Rooo]

Moved to Thai Language.

[cooked]

I am still at the beginning as far as learning Thai is concerned, but I quickly found out that it is certainly worthwhile learning the Thai alphabet at the same time. I sometimes find myself puzzled by transcriptions, occasionally having to go back to the original Thai to work out what word it was supposed to be (not an easy process for me, but I never thought it would be). The official 'government' transcription system seems to have been designed by a well meaning orang utan.

I picked up an excellent second hand book the other day which had another transcription system - this however just confused me further.

[Hssl]

Chap that works at the same company as me who has been here 30 + years used to work for the Thai finance ministry and was asked to do the Thai road signs etc in English as an extra job so people could actually pronounce the Thai word correctly but as nobody offered ANY extra money he didn't..............

The only road signs I've seen in Thailand so far that actually reads in English how it should be said in Thai are 2!

[Nepal4me]

I picked up an excellent second hand book the other day which had another transcription system - this however just confused me further.

There are as many transcription systems as there are Thai language books unfortunately. However, the system used by Benjawan Poonsan Becker is by far the most logical.

[GreenSnapper]

Totally stupid - but TIT.

Examples:

Go to a taxi and tell him you want to go to "Rama 9".

<deleted>?

Raamaa Nine! RaaaaaMaaa Khao!

<deleted>?

Ok, cannot. Go to MRT. Great, there is a station called "Rama 9". Buy ticket, enter train.

English(!) announcement:

"Next station: Phra Ram Nine"

<deleted>? You want to go to Raaaamaaaaa Nine? No have!

[simon43]

The reason for the 'mistakes' in the transliteration system should perhaps be attributed to the creator of that transliteration system. If you Google about this, you'll maybe understand why the 'mistakes' have not been corrected...

Simon

[hookedondhamma]

I picked up an excellent second hand book the other day which had another transcription system - this however just confused me further.

There are as many transcription systems as there are Thai language books unfortunately. However, the system used by Benjawan Poonsan Becker is by far the most logical.

I agree, though everyone thinks differently. I transcribed some chant books to English back in the states using her system. But unfortunately it gave every last one of them an aneurism. Switched to the Royal system and there were way less headaches (but the pronunciation was even farther off then before).

The system probably has to do with it roots coming from the Pali languages. I've noticed that when reading English transcriptions of the Pali language it coincides with the Royal Thai system - the exception being the long vowels.

If one has the time though, I think the best thing to do would just grab a sufficient book and learn the Thai characters. It would help quite a bit with double pricing, taxi drivers taking the long route, etc.

I noticed that quite a bit as well, 'Rama', 'Bhumi' etc. Avoid the blank stares if one can by learning to read Thai.

[Nepal4me]

The reason for the 'mistakes' in the transliteration system should perhaps be attributed to the creator of that transliteration system. If you Google about this, you'll maybe understand why the 'mistakes' have not been corrected...

Simon

Hello Simon, it seems you know something that you are not saying.

I have googled around and haven't really come up with who the creator is (although based on your message, I could guess)..... Royalty involved???

In linguistics, romanization (or Latinization, also spelled romanisation or Latinisation) is the representation of a word or language with the Roman (Latin) alphabet, or a system for doing so, where the original word or language uses a different writing system. Methods of romanization include transliteration, representing written text, and transcription, representing the spoken word. The latter can be subdivided into phonological transcription, which records the phonemes or units of semantic meaning in speech, and more strict phonetic transcription, which records speech sounds with precision. Each romanization has its own set of rules for pronunciation of the romanized words.

It seems I am incorrectly using the term "transcription", when it should be "transliteration". Further the system is based on "phonemes" rather than "phonetics", which as least explains why the unspoken consonants and vowels are included.

I wonder (if I deduce correctly your implication that royalty is involved in our official phonemes system) if there is any push from any quarters to change the system to a more speaking-friendly system.

Can you offer a link or more insight?

Thanks.........

[simon43]

Hi Nepal4Me, yes my understanding from the origins of the transliteration system is that it was originally created by HM King of Thailand (sorry, cannot recall which king - need to Google this). Therefore, any criticism of the system could be construed as criticism of the King, which is clearly a no-no in Thailand.

From a linguistic POV, I wonder how some of these 'mistakes' came to be included in the original transliteration system. Take the way in which Phuket is spelt. In English, a 'ph' usually defaults to a soft 'p', as in 'phone'. In Thai script, there is no Hor Hip in the word for Phuket

Bear in mind that I'm only talking about the transliteration of Thai letters only, not how tones are represented in the transliterated text.

Simon

[cooked]

ah good, I thought that I was wrong in wanting to use the word transliteration.

[garrya]

The fundamental problem is that the transcription does not reflect the pronounciation. The phonetic alphabet should visualize the speech that the Thai system always misses. Another problem is that some people try to anglicize the transcription which is totally impossible as there are sounds that English language is lacking of.

As mentioned above, the only logical transliteration, what I have ever found, is the Benjawan Poomsan Becker's. Of course, native English speakers find it hard as it is not anglicized.

To be honest, I often can't read and understand transliterated words.

[Nepal4me]

A fellow TV member just sent me this pdf on the origins and types of Thai transliteration systems that have been in place since Rama VI did the first one.

In general, they are all bad, in terms of pronouncation due to their adherance to the phonemic system.

Sadly and oddly, there doesn't seem a push towards a phonetic (transliteration based on pronouncation) system.

....unless somebody knows something that I don't..... hopefully...

RomanizingThai.pdf

[KhaoNiaw]

Not to mention transcribing DTaw DTow and BPaw BPlaa, which is obviously more tricky since we don't have those sounds in English. But why did we have to use up the T and P letters for them instead of letting T and P represent T and P sounds?

We do have those sounds in English. It's the T in 'star' and the P in 'spa', which are unaspirated, without the breath. So in fact we do use those letters to represent those sounds in English. We also use them to represent the aspirated T and P as we consider these as a single sound in English. Whereas they are two separate and meaningful sounds in Thai with TH and PH representing the added breath of those sounds. Which is why you can see road signs with Phatthaya.

Edited July 4, 2012 by KhaoNiaw

[Nepal4me]

Not to mention transcribing DTaw DTow and BPaw BPlaa, which is obviously more tricky since we don't have those sounds in English. But why did we have to use up the T and P letters for them instead of letting T and P represent T and P sounds?

We do have those sounds in English. It's the T in 'star' and the P in 'spa', which are unaspirated, without the breath. So in fact we do use those letters to represent those sounds in English. We also use them to represent the aspirated T and P as we consider these as a single sound in English. Whereas they are two separate and meaningful sounds in Thai with TH and PH representing the added breath of those sounds. Which is why you can see road signs with Phatthaya.

You are right, we do have those sounds. I was thinking of those sounds at the beginning of words rather than in the middle. This however doesn't change anything with regards to my point of usage. The existing usage of TH rather than T isn't reasonable from a phonetic point of view.... but phonetic's isn't the system used.

[kokesaat]

I got a good chuckle out of the Rama 9 story above. I had the same problem when I told a taxi driver to go to Rama IV (Rah-mah see). He didn't understand. HOW CAN YOU BE A TAXI DRIVER AND NOT KNOW WHERE RAMA SEE IS?? Only when I learned how to read Thai did I learn that the name of the road is not Rama but Phra-Ram (พระราม).

I wonder how many visitors have told their taxi drivers to go to Sue-var-nab-hu-me Airport.

[besth]

Chap that works at the same company as me who has been here 30 + years used to work for the Thai finance ministry and was asked to do the Thai road signs etc in English as an extra job so people could actually pronounce the Thai word correctly but as nobody offered ANY extra money he didn't..............

The only road signs I've seen in Thailand so far that actually reads in English how it should be said in Thai are 2!

The signs on the roads don't even all read the same in English in every sign!

It is extremely difficult to find proper phonetic transcriptions for all words, because of the tones/unexisting equivalences, but there should at least be some official agreement on names of roads, cities, etc.

Mind you, if it can still be figured out, at the end of the day it is what it counts.

[bytebuster]

The Official phonetic transcription system is RTGS.

It leaves many points for critic, including the fact that it is actually transliteration, as Nepal4me and others have noticed.

There are many major (and several minor) transcriptions systems available. This resource provides with an excellent side-by-side comparison.

Paiboon, indeed, seems to be one of the best, but personally, I can't accept that [bp] and [dt] and other lame constructs. The reason of their appearance is that most of students are English native speakers, and English [p/t/k] are always aspirated (except several dialects).

The same applies to vowels: [eo], [ɛo], etc. They make the student thinking that [eo] is a compound vowel while it is a vowel with labio-velar ending. So it is more natural to display it [-w], not [-o].

The only phonetic system that is absolutely unambiguous is IPA.

Nevertheless, any phonetic system is fine because one should not read a transcription according to their native language phonetics. Instead, a student should remember how [ɛo] etc are really pronounced in Thai and try reproducing it as Thai speakers do, not as written.

[Richard W]

The Official phonetic transcription system is RTGS.

It leaves many points for critic, including the fact that it is actually transliteration, as Nepal4me and others have noticed.

'transcription' = phonetic.

'transliteration' = character based.

The problem with the RTGS is that the advice to keep it simple was heeded. They should have ignored the advice, and said 'Drop all the diacritics if you want to', rather as is done with pinyin for Chinese. Mind you, it's only recently that Unicode has come to support what would be an economical system for length/shortness marking in combination with tone marks.

I should comment on the origin of 'ph'. The Romans had a perfectly good letter <f> for transcribing the sound of Greek phi, but they used <ph> because the Greeks pronounced it as in Phuket! (Athenians has written the sound with their equivalents of <p> and <h> until their alphabet was reformed, adding phi, and using eta as a vowel symbol.) The Greeks later simplified /ph/ to /f/ (or near enough), but the Northwest of Europe has kept the old convention.

It is rather silly in a practical system to use <bp> and <dt> for the commonest labial and dental stop consonants. Perhaps one should go the whole hog and use the full Pinyin system - <p> for ผ พ ภ, <b> for ป and <bb> for บ. For the last of these, see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_script and look for the adaptation of pinyin for Yi.

[PaullyW]

Ok -- some other guys may know this, but ..

1. the Thai language has more sounds than English does, so you CAN'T have a 1-1 with the phonetic transcription

2. there are several transcription systems used -- and this is what makes it a pain in the ass. You think you've learned something (that uses one transcription system like the Royal Thai system), and then you see another word/sign that uses a completely different system.

Really IPA works quite well. But, the most important point would be for consistency in my opinion. As long as one system is used, people can learn it.

Edited July 5, 2012 by PaullyW

[DavidHouston]

Does Windows or Apple have a virtual keyboard which can produce IPA symbols which reflect Thai consonant and vowel sounds, as well as tone marks? If so, how does one invoke this keyboard?

If not, how do the proponents of IPA as a written communications medium proposed to render Thai-IPA on a computer?

Thanks.

[rgs2001uk]

I got a good chuckle out of the Rama 9 story above. I had the same problem when I told a taxi driver to go to Rama IV (Rah-mah see). He didn't understand. HOW CAN YOU BE A TAXI DRIVER AND NOT KNOW WHERE RAMA SEE IS?? Only when I learned how to read Thai did I learn that the name of the road is not Rama but Phra-Ram (พระราม).

I wonder how many visitors have told their taxi drivers to go to Sue-var-nab-hu-me Airport.

Another problem for taxi drivers and the public, the same road can have four different names.

Example, Ramkhamhaeng, know as,Ram, Ramkhamhaeng, Sukaphiban sam and finally Suka sam.

[bytebuster]

Does Windows or Apple have a virtual keyboard which can produce IPA symbols which reflect Thai consonant and vowel sounds, as well as tone marks?

IPA Keyboard Layout for Windows

Online IPA Char picker

Another one with pre-defined language-specific subsets

[DavidHouston]

Does Windows or Apple have a virtual keyboard which can produce IPA symbols which reflect Thai consonant and vowel sounds, as well as tone marks?

IPA Keyboard Layout for Windows

Online IPA Char picker

Another one with pre-defined language-specific subsets

Excellent, Bytebuster. I notice, however, that the "typein.org" contains only European languages. Are there plans to include languages like Thai? Thanks.

[GreenSnapper]

Another problem for taxi drivers and the public, the same road can have four different names.

Example, Ramkhamhaeng, know as,Ram, Ramkhamhaeng, Sukaphiban sam and finally Suka sam.

Sign posts on the highway: "Din Daeng", "Din Dang", "Din Deang"...... and probably more variations.

A transcription system is not meant to be used by people who know or study the language. It is meant to be used by illiterate foreigners to identify things.

This is a total failure here. Nobody understands that something must be "exact". For example, you cannot look up an address in google maps or your GPS system. Addresses are not exact, everybody just writes as he pleases. Even house numbers are often wrong.

That's probably part of the Thai mentality.

I was glad to see that in Laos they try to get things right. Not always, but certainly better than in Thailand. They understand the importance of being "exact".

[Parvis]

The idea of being EXACT surpasses many of the posters here also - not only a "Thai Mentality".

For instance a question to the original poster what EXACTLY it a "Forienger"?

If you want to be able to pronounce a Thai word correctly - perhaps you should take the efford to learn Thai-script rather than complain - without enlightening - about poor phonetic transcriptions often produced by "expert" FORIEGNERS.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Parvis

[PaullyW]

The idea of being EXACT surpasses many of the posters here also - not only a "Thai Mentality".

For instance a question to the original poster what EXACTLY it a "Forienger"?

If you want to be able to pronounce a Thai word correctly - perhaps you should take the efford to learn Thai-script rather than complain about poor phonetic transcriptions often produced by "FORIEGNERS"

Parvis,

No, you are incorrect. For many foreigners, learning Thai is a task they have no time for. For instance, expats working here in busy multinational firms that tax their time have no time/energy to learn the VERY difficult Thai script.

Transcription systems are useful. Look up the "Pinyin" transcription system for Chinese that is widely adopted in China and used MOSTLY BY CHINESE, believe it or not. For instance, Thais could use a phonetic transcription system for mobile device input rather than having the mental overhead of dozens of spellings (irregular spellings, of which there are MANY) for words.

It's not just foreigners who benefit.

[Parvis]

PaullyW

I think you may not have understood what reference I made about the description (and spelling by the OP) of "foriengers".

I pointed out that the mentality of lack of "exactness" also belongs to "foriengers".

For instance if you were to pronounce "foriengers" the way it was spelled by the OP - many individuals would not understand the meaning thereof.

I do agree that phonetic transcription is necessary - but it is not an exact and perfect science - therefore differences will exist. To argue about it seems useless. I would even suggest that the Thai phonetic transcription did not originate from a Thai but a "forienger" - but I am certainly not an expert on this subject.

Case closed.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Parvis

[GreenSnapper]

If you want to be able to pronounce a Thai word correctly - perhaps you should take the efford to learn Thai-script rather than complain - without enlightening - about poor phonetic transcriptions often produced by "expert" FORIEGNERS.

Tell this to a CNN speaker, tell this to a foreign politician who is being received by King BumiphoL, tell this to a foreign airline captain who cannot even pronounce the Bangkok airport.

Or tell this to a tourist like me, who once came to Bangkok and looked for "Wat Trimitr", ehm, "Wat Treemitter", "Wat Treemittel", "Wat Traimaitter"..... "Wat What??"

"Just learn Thai" is nonsense. Transcription is meant for exactly those people who do not have the time to learn hundreds of languages in the world and still want to get around.