A Modest Proposal To Thai Immigration Regarding Money Seasoning For Retirement Extensions

[maprao]

Grandfathering on the old levels has SO FAR applied to previous raises in levels.

It's a risky assumption that this policy will continue. I say leave well alone. The Law Of Unintended Consequences will most certainly come into play, people deep into retirement could find themselves in an impossible and unsalvageable position. People approaching retirement now may find themselves with the rug pulled from under them.

Sometimes the best answer is do nothing.

It did when it went from 400,000 to 800,000 it increased by 100% in one step. So like me and the OP said let us hope all those advocating an increase can afford it when it happens. Expats should rally around and help each other and not pray for other expats demise!

I hope I am still around in 20 years time when the time comes for me!

It's less than 4 four years in my case ( I'm 46 ), figures such as 800,000 baht and 65,000 baht are of no concern to me, good for me huh? However my point is it's not guys like me that will suffer, it's guys who are just on the edge of qualifying who will suffer.

To theblether. You are right and I hope that you can say that for the 1.6 mill then the 3.2 mill and so on because at 46 you are going to see it and then it maybe of "concern to you." Only time will tell.

I bet there was a time when people used to say the 400,000 was of no concern to me but then it did become their concern........ How far can it go before it is of concern? huh? When will you or others move to the edge?

Edited July 10, 2012 by maprao

[MB1]

.

Improvements in immigration policy can benefit both Thailand and genuine retirees.

...

Yes I would like improvements too. Like a trivial loosening the silly seasoning requirements for long standing retirees in good standing as I suggested. Like a path towards permanent residence which is something we all know we will never get but that is a reasonable thing to ask for. Like a special government health insurance program for retired foreigners where we can BUY into the plan. Why not private insurance you ask? Duh! Many older people can't buy meaningful private insurance, too many preexisting condition exclusions. Another thing we know we will never be offered Something offered by a number of other countries.s longer than one year (everyone knows that, nobody can deny it) and you still want them to crack down on us more and offer nothing in return? Completely irrational. Face facts, this is a country that already doesn't really want us much, we aren't really welcome we are only tolerated for money, and they will never offer us any longer term statu

This thread has got to be about one of the funniest I have read in a long time on TV, so thanks JT, you start a thread and when it starts going a way that your not comfortable with you ask for thread closure and throw your teddy out of the pram, we have a saying JT, "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen".....

But as your such a foodie lover I'd have thought you could handle a bit more heat than you got on this thread.

Aint you said it yourself JT, ,

"Face facts, this is a country that already doesn't really want us much, we aren't really welcome we are only tolerated for money, and they will never offer us any longer term statu"

So is starting a thread about change to the 800k going to do anything apart from up your blood pressure whilst getting your knickers in a twist. Classic thread JT, well done..

[MB1]

About "grandfathering" -- our condo building instituted a "no pets policy" effective 1/1/2012. We moved in with our cat about a month before. I talked with the condo manager, a fairly efficient Thai man and he said "it's OK you moved in before the rule". Then I said, "OK, that means my cat is grandfathered?" He looked very puzzled for a moment and said "No! No kittens!"

Someday the Thai authorities may be having kittens over all the unpaid medical bills from retired expats.

You come off as SMUG. You've got yours. Congrats.

Again if you are going to lobby that things get tighter for your fellow expats, at the very least suggest some conditional benefits in return, such as a path towards residence and a buy in insurance program. Don't suggest a tightening for ... NOTHING. So my logic is, sadly, we know we will get nothing even if we ask, so to lobby for a tightening is irrational and also very insensitive to people that are doing just fine but may not be as wealthy as you are. Let the tightening come from the Thai officials. Let our role to be more sympathetic to those that are in same boat as you, richer or poorer.

What do you mean about insurance? Are retirees in Thailand not allowed to buy private health insurance?

We're older. For a large percentage of us we can't buy meaningful insurance. For example, do you know how many older people are on blood pressure meds? If you have high blood pressure you can't buy coverage for anything related to the heart. Heart disease, strokes, etc. Maybe you're a Brit and don't understand such things. Some countries with retired expat programs offer buy ins to government insurance that yes does offer at least basic overall coverage. To put up a bond I would want something back, a path towards residence and an insurance scheme.

In any case, people considering retiring to Thailand. Please realize you will never be offered any long term meaningful status here. Why should we have great loyalty to the government of Thailand when we know we will never be offered a crumb of loyalty in return? That would be irrational.

If I retire here JT, I'll make sure I know the rules before I make the decision and then make my choice based on what the rules are, but I most certainly won't ever retire here if I don't have sufficient funds to do so or didnt like the rules, I'd probably do a 50/50 Thailand/UK, I'm not far off that now anyway and it suits me to come to and fro at will.

[rizla]

What would happen if you are a retired person here and have been for 2 years or so and you had to return home for medical reasons and then returned on a retirement visa ...would that cancel out your grandfathered status if changes were made to the current figures....???

I congratulate JT on thinking out of the box re. the thread starter BUT i would rather he used his "spunk" to ensure that the current rules are adhered to by the immigration officers, EXAMPLE it clearly states that there is no seasoning of money in a thai bank WHEN using the Part and Part method.....I have had to show my money part has been seasoned for ( 3 months) for my last 2 extensions based on retirement ....which is wrong....FIX that one why don`t you....

[Jingthing]

Indeed, the status quo is probably better for you... I have tried to explain why changes could benefit other people but you seem to have no interest in matters of such irrelevance

You aren't interested in how your ideas could really HURT lots of OTHER people. You clearly have no interest in that and you clearly have no interest in real improvements for retirees here: path to residence and a buy in govt. insurance program. I don't believe you are being helpful at all. Also your ideas aren't even HALF baked. What about income people. How do you want to crack down on them as well? Only crack down on bank account people, is that your grand plan?

I showed an interest in both the insurance scheme and the citizenship scheme. Indeed, I would support both such proposals.

I think all retirees should have to deposit some funds with the Thai government in case of emergency (regardless of how they extend their visas).

As NancyL explained, this policy would deal with a very real problem (and could help both genuine retirees and the Thai taxpayers).

So you're lovely proposal is to end the income qualifying option then and make everyone buy a bond they can't touch? Going for Mr. Popular again I see. Edited July 10, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

What would happen if you are a retired person here and have been for 2 years or so and you had to return home for medical reasons and then returned on a retirement visa ...would that cancel out your grandfathered status if changes were made to the current figures....???

I congratulate JT on thinking out of the box re. the thread starter BUT i would rather he used his "spunk" to ensure that the current rules are adhered to by the immigration officers, EXAMPLE it clearly states that there is no seasoning of money in a thai bank WHEN using the Part and Part method.....I have had to show my money part has been seasoned for ( 3 months) for my last 2 extensions based on retirement ....which is wrong....FIX that one why don`t you....

Starting over would indeed CANCEL any grandfathering features. Most definitely.

[rizla]

What would happen if you are a retired person here and have been for 2 years or so and you had to return home for medical reasons and then returned on a retirement visa ...would that cancel out your grandfathered status if changes were made to the current figures....???

I congratulate JT on thinking out of the box re. the thread starter BUT i would rather he used his "spunk" to ensure that the current rules are adhered to by the immigration officers, EXAMPLE it clearly states that there is no seasoning of money in a thai bank WHEN using the Part and Part method.....I have had to show my money part has been seasoned for ( 3 months) for my last 2 extensions based on retirement ....which is wrong....FIX that one why don`t you....

Starting over would indeed CANCEL any grandfathering features. Most definitely.

And what about the second part of my post ???

[Jingthing]

What would happen if you are a retired person here and have been for 2 years or so and you had to return home for medical reasons and then returned on a retirement visa ...would that cancel out your grandfathered status if changes were made to the current figures....???

I congratulate JT on thinking out of the box re. the thread starter BUT i would rather he used his "spunk" to ensure that the current rules are adhered to by the immigration officers, EXAMPLE it clearly states that there is no seasoning of money in a thai bank WHEN using the Part and Part method.....I have had to show my money part has been seasoned for ( 3 months) for my last 2 extensions based on retirement ....which is wrong....FIX that one why don`t you....

Starting over would indeed CANCEL any grandfathering features. Most definitely.

And what about the second part of my post ???

I got it but you're talking about varied enforcement across offices. Nobody likes that. Obviously it is wrong. But what can any of us do about that? All we can do as we do here is TRACK that and provide information to people about the variances. That's not a national policy issue. That's a provincial office issue. I think this forum already does all that is really possible on that continuing problem. Edited July 10, 2012 by Jingthing

[tropo]

. No expat likes the 90 day report!

I love the 90 day reporting. Each time I do it I'm reminded of my 4 year tourist visa shuffle before I turned 50 and how wonderful it is just to do a quick visit once every 90 days - and my wife doesn't even need to attend.

Surely you can't be serious that anything anyone says will ever been taken on board by Immigration. You must have been very bored to start this thread. I could say something like "you need to get out more", but you've already visited just about every restaurant in Pattaya. You're amazing, really.

Edited July 10, 2012 by tropo

[theblether]

To theblether. You are right and I hope that you can say that for the 1.6 mill then the 3.2 mill and so on because at 46 you are going to see it and then it maybe of "concern to you." Only time will tell.

I bet there was a time when people used to say the 400,000 was of no concern to me but then it did become their concern........ How far can it go before it is of concern? huh? When will you or others move to the edge?

Are you asking me about my personal wealth? You haven't quoted a figure that would even begin to concern me, and there are plenty like me. Plenty.

Equally there are plenty that would struggle with a doubling or quadrupling of the current level. Is the fact that I'm wealthy some kind of bar on me being concerned for the plight of pensioners and retirees? I think not.

My point is clear, do not rock the boat, there will be plenty of good men and women damaged by a review of pension qualification. I say do nothing, as the results of any review could well be catastrophic to many people.

[Jingthing]

. No expat likes the 90 day report!

I love the 90 day reporting. Each time I do it I'm reminded of my 4 year tourist visa shuffle before I turned 50 and how wonderful it is just to do a quick visit once every 90 days - and my wife doesn't even need to attend.

Surely you can't be serious that anything anyone says will ever been taken on board by Immigration. You must have been very bored to start this thread. I could say something like "you need to get out more", but you've already visited just about every restaurant in Pattaya. You're amazing, really.

Actually, dude, it has been reported that immigration DOES read this forum! Sorry if that shocks you. That's why it is so very stupid for expats to be suggesting harsher treatment of us.

Someone before says it isn't us vs. them. Duh. Yes it is in the context of foreigners dealing with THAI immigration police. Are the foreigner applicants the ones sitting with the uniform deciding whether the Thai person is allowed to stay in Thailand another year? No. You are the foreigner at the total mercy of the officer. Please accept the reality.

If you actually LOVE the 90 day reports, OK, but that sounds perverted. It takes all kinds as I know all too well. I would love either no reports or an ONLINE capability. I prefer going in to mailing a form though.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Jingthing

[theblether]

We've all seen the Facebook window on Thaivisa, the one with photos of people that have liked TV. I clicked through on one and it turned out the person in question worked in the private office of Yingluck.

Was it spam? Was it real? I don't know, I'm only reporting as found. The next time you see the photos have a look for yourself.

[tropo]

If you actually LOVE the 90 day reports, OK, but that sounds perverted. It takes all kinds as I know all too well. I would love either no reports or an ONLINE capability. I prefer going in to mailing a form though.

Personally, dude, I think you're the perverted one, but that's another topic.

I already explained why I love 90 day reporting. If you'd had to struggle for 4 years with a partner to get tourist visas to stay, you'd understand. I'm new enough to retirement extensions to still appreciate them.

If you think there's even a chance that Immigration would take your idea on board, you're living in la-la land.... but we already know that.

[Jingthing]

If you think there's even a chance that Immigration would take your idea on board, you're living in la-la land.... but we already know that.

No I don't expect they will. I was hoping the lure of penalty fees might interest. That would be the only hope.

[PattayaPhom]

If you havnt got 800K or the income level then retiring in Thailand isnt for you.

[Jingthing]

If you havnt got 800K or the income level then retiring in Thailand isnt for you.

And puppies are cute!

[David48]

Morning JT.

A few pages back, you requested closure ... that would have been akin to burning a book.

So much good information has been uncovered these past few pages.

As for me ... I am close to theblethers age, maybe a grey hair or two more, so this discussion on the Retirement Visa is excellent source material.

Indeed, the more they challenge you JT ... the better the pearls you string ...

[David48]

JT, Where I do need some understanding for future planning and, if it’s not too intrusive, could you share some personal details?

Assuming that you are from the States but don’t maintain a health insurance policy there. Therefore, if you get sick in Thailand … I mean really sick, you can’t return to the States for free or heavily subsidised Health Care.

The assumption is that you have to have yourself treated in Thailand.

Again assuming that capital is a wee bit tight, how you plan to pay for the medical treatment and still maintain sufficient funds to qualify for the Retirement Visa?

Thanks in Advance for the Reply …

[Jingthing]

JT, Where I do need some understanding for future planning and, if it’s not too intrusive, could you share some personal details?

Assuming that you are from the States but don’t maintain a health insurance policy there. Therefore, if you get sick in Thailand … I mean really sick, you can’t return to the States for free or heavily subsidised Health Care.

The assumption is that you have to have yourself treated in Thailand.

Again assuming that capital is a wee bit tight, how you plan to pay for the medical treatment and still maintain sufficient funds to qualify for the Retirement Visa?

Thanks in Advance for the Reply …

No personal details.

A retiree who gets very sick in Thailand and doesn't have insurance has a problem. The 800K/65K income/combo method is just the qualifying criteria for Thailand retirement extensions. Don't assume that is the only assets retirees have. Typically there would be other assets for sure. A person renewing the 800K annually has money OUTSIDE THAILAND which is TRANSFERRED in. Is that what some silly people are thinking -- that most people on the 800K method ONLY have 800K to their name in the entire world, and that's it? That is so totally wrong. The minority that might be in that boat won't last in the Thai visa system very long as you need to get NEW extensions annually and show the 800K every year. You need money to live so you need a SOURCE for the replenishment, yes? If you don't have it, you will be shaken out. To keep all your assets in Thailand, a country which offers no long term security for retired expats, would usually be very foolish. So in many cases the uninsured retiree could self fund their treatment. If not, if they are well enough to travel and hope to get treatment in the home country, that is a time when some retired expats will repatriate. Sometimes they get better and come back. If they are too ill to travel, can't afford treatment which would mean also not affording massively expensive private air evacuation, they generally will not get treated in Thailand and they will likely die a horrible death without treatment. Is that what you wanted to hear?

About the US issue, a retiree over 65 could move back and enroll in Medicare. For those under 65, Obamacare WILL be put into effect into the next few years (ignore the political noise) and that will provide good options for the majority of repatriating expats needing medical care back in the US. Under Obamacare, people will be able to enroll in health insurance (private or Medicaid) while having (even serious) preexisting conditions. There is a potential issue with some states refusing to expand Medicaid, so it might depend which US state you are moving back to you if you are lower income.

[David48]

JT ... I think that you are a rare breed.

You are blessed with external capital of obviously some proportion.

Most that you read here is of the OAP who scrapes by with a meagre pension and struggles to come up the the 800,000 Baht.

Better that amount be raised so that there is a larger capital buffer should things go tits up.

Here, I have read talk of 1 Million or 1.2 million baht would be a better buffer against the hard times.

I find it hard to argue with that.

[meatboy]

what about 5year ext.for those who have been married to the same one for 10years or more[my case 22yrs] 10,000bht up front,less paper work ect.less travelling for us win win allround.they should be able to calcalate 5x1,900=500bht extra,thats a few cups of tea.

[StreetCowboy]

what about 5year ext.for those who have been married to the same one for 10years or more[my case 22yrs] 10,000bht up front,less paper work ect.less travelling for us win win allround.they should be able to calcalate 5x1,900=500bht extra,thats a few cups of tea.

I'll take that, and I'll print you off your visa when I get into the office.

Do you want me to put your name on it?

What country do you want it for/

SC

[samsiam]

Rather discriminatory targeting only those retirees in good standing.

[samsiam]

. Let the tightening come from the Thai officials.

But you started all this public exposure and rant about change to suit you......if the Thai officials beef things up over the next year....we know who to ask all the hard questions at.

[samsiam]

If you think there's even a chance that Immigration would take your idea on board, you're living in la-la land.... but we already know that.

No I don't expect they will. I was hoping the lure of penalty fees might interest. That would be the only hope.

That is a very sound basis to request an immigration change on.

[Gary A]

The first year that I used the 800,000 baht deposit everything went fine. I didn't touch the money so the second year I was grilled by the crotchety old immigration official. He wanted to know how I managed to live here on no money. He came to the conclusion that I had no money for living expenses because the 800,000 in my account was not touched.

Since then, I have been using that money and then topping it up three months before my extension is due. I try to make only one wire transfer per year. I do have an aversion about giving my US bank anymore money than absolutely necessary. I do have a second Thai account that I use in case of any situation that could endanger the 800,000 minimum.

I use the Chiang Khan immigration office and am happy to say that the entire old staff has been replaced. The new staff are polite and very helpful in addition to streamlining some processes. The crotchety old guy insisted on a health certificate years after it was no longer needed. I had the audacity to tell him that it was no longer needed. He replied that HE needed it. My Thai wife goes with me sometimes and she has been irritated that he talks down to me. (Her words).

[Mario2008]

Just get another account for daily living expenses.

[Gary A]

Just get another account for daily living expenses.

The point being is that immigration wanted to see activity in my primary account.

[Mario2008]

It is accepted that you have two accounts, one where you have the money seasoned and one for daily expenses.

[ThaidDown]

Just get another account for daily living expenses.

The point being is that immigration wanted to see activity in my primary account.

Again, just shows the procedural differences between immigration offices. In many years I have never made a withdrawal from my 'retirement' fixed account, have added to it a little as originally only needed 200,000 in it (married), now 800,000 as retired. Only once in all that time, several years ago, was my wife asked 'why no withdrawals ?' she just said 'he uses another account', end of questions. This is at Rayong Immigration (now at Mapthaput) .