What Has Caused Terrorism

[strawberry]

Hi All,

Over the past couple of days the question has been asked what is causing the terrorism. So I'm going to throw my tuppence worth in. I stress now that my only sources of information are the BBC and CNN.

An answer to this was given ,when asked, EVIL. The guys that brought down the WTO thought so, for was that not what they thought they were doing, fighting evil, that is.

The morning that those building were brought down I was not surprised, shocked yes but not surprised. I remember wondering why so many people were surprised. I had for the past couple of years wondered when the arabs were going to start fighting back.

The way I was seeing it was that the USA's support for Israel was getting up the nose of many arabs many of then very rich. The only way they could get some relief from the frustration they felt was to give monies to the terrorist groups. Only a few weeks before the WTO was attacked Senator Joseph Biden was seen on CNN telling the world we didn't care what Israel had done they were our friends.

Simplifying it what we have been doing is feeding hate and I think that if you feed hate long enough violence will follow. Watching the news this morning more hate is being developed, the good thing is that the news reporters are finally starting to recognise this and perhaps the voters will start to recognise and put pressure on their polies.

Regards Joe Strawberry

[Khun ?]

I hate those people to hate us.

[dutch]

I hesitated for a while, if I would react.

However I think the more opinions the better as long as we don't start trying to convince each other about who is right and who is wrong.

400 yrs ago we ( my home country) were for 80 yrs in war with Spain.

200 yrs ago were were occupied by France

150 yrs ago Belgium split from Holland

60 yrs ago we were in war with Germany

During the 16th and 17th century we fought sea battles with Spain-Portugal and UK.

We were a colonial power till 1963 and we still are, with the difference that these islands (Curacao-Antilles) don't want to split,after the disaster with Suriname.

Why this intro?

I think if we start to talk about the right or wrong existance of Israel,many historians will go back to the 1945-50's.Others will go with the biblean history and will go back e few 1000 years.

Will this however solve the situation?

Fact is that Israel (again right or wrong??) created by the UN, became from dessert to a indutrialized,highly educated nation. All countries around ,without exception , is trouble all over.Like it or not it is a fact.

The Saoudies heavily supported by the USA ,could maintain their old fashioned regime till now.For how long more? Critical reports in USA show up now (after 9-11)

What ever happened, it does not give any Arab/Muslem the right to the terrorist attacks as done and still planned. Mainstream terrorisme is middle east from origin.I know about IRA/ETA and so on but that is childplay compared to the world threat at the moment.

Most of all I hate that it is done in the name of religon.I feel sorry for the youngsters who grew up in hate and think they will go to heaven.

I learned in my life that it is not only black and white ,but there are a lot of shades of grey.!

Hopefully the discussion will not become only black and white

[Boon Mee]

Joe Strawberry:

If you're only getting your news through CNN & BBC you're getting REAL Slanted stuff. Get you're cable provider or aim that satellite at FOX News - Fair & Balanced information! Not some of that Left-Wing crap.

During Slick Willy's impeachment, CNN stood for the Clinton News Network and they're still biased as h_ll.

[dutch]

Here we go!!!!!!!

Black against white.

Gentlemen, I assume, you are really from a two party world (Rep's and Dem's)

In my home country during election time we do have over 50 parties participating.End result MUST be a coalition otherwise there will never be a governement.May be,coming from that background,I can see things a little bit different.

By the way besides TV5(france)-DW(german)-BBC(UK), I also look CNN and FOX.

Try to collect more opinions and make up your mind.

[the gentleman]

re-world trade center.

When 911 happened, it was reported in a Thai newspaper that no Israelies were killed and no one turned up for work at the "Israel Embassy" - I am not sure which Israel "department" - did anyone else hear this?

It is a major point, I think - anyone shed more light?

[dutch]

Also the diplomats from the Solomon islands were not yet working.

Any more lights?

[the gentleman]

Also the diplomats from the Solomon islands were not yet working.

Any more lights?

I was asking a question that I beleive to be worthwhile - I am not sure of yours though

[Boon Mee]

re-world trade center.

When 911 happened, it was reported in a Thai newspaper that no Israelies were killed and no one turned up for work at the "Israel Embassy" - I am not sure which Israel "department" - did anyone else hear this?

It is a major point, I think - anyone shed more light?

That was one of those bulls_it rumors going around after the towers went down. It really gained strength in the Middle East once they ID'd the lead ###### - one Mohamod (what else would he be called) Atta. A nice Egyptian lad who spent his formative years learning to make bombs and fly 747s. Not take off or land mind you - just fly.

The Gypos (sorry, not PC tonight) went nuts! This can't be! Little Mohamoud was such a NICE boy - and on and on. So the story went that it was, of course, Israel's fault. Not to mention GWB knew all about it before it went down. Mass denial.

As they say in the UK - a total shower of <deleted>!

Boon Mee

[Georgie-Porgie]

re-world trade center.

When 911 happened, it was reported in a Thai newspaper that no Israelies were killed and no one turned up for work at the "Israel Embassy" - I am not sure which Israel "department" - did anyone else hear this?

It is a major point, I think - anyone shed more light?

gentleman, I am trying to be as gentle as possible, but this is definitely what is known as a nutty conspiracy theory. This is the kind of thing that I object to so much on this forum, and by the way, I think that, that was what dutch was trying to hint to you as well.

[pal78]

Joe Strawberry:

If you're only getting your news through CNN & BBC you're getting REAL Slanted stuff. Get you're cable provider or aim that satellite at FOX News - Fair & Balanced information! Not some of that Left-Wing crap.

During Slick Willy's impeachment, CNN stood for the Clinton News Network and they're still biased as h_ll. 

This is a joke, right?

[SoCal]

Dutch- As my grandfather used to say, you are a gentleman and a scholar. Glad to see some well thought out reason for a change.

Gentleman- Are you an anti-semite, or were you smoking herb last night?

Strawberry- You never cease to amaze me.

1) Not surprised that the Arabs finally started fighting back? Tell me this is a joke, and you are not this stupid.

2) As for the palestinians, the arab states never gave a ###### about them, and have only used them to deflect from their own despotic regimes. Go read your history, and get back to us.

3) As for what causes terrorism, it is truly sad people who know nothing about the beauty or joy of life, only a profound emptiness and bleakness. They choose to their view of the world with the rest of us.

4) The palestinians had a very sweet deal. 99% of what they wanted, and they still chose the gun. Why? An irrational hate, much like some of you towards us.

[dutch]

Georgy Porky

That was exact what I was trying to hint at

[Axel]

re-world trade center.

When 911 happened, it was reported in a Thai newspaper that no Israelies were killed and no one turned up for work at the "Israel Embassy" - I am not sure which Israel "department" - did anyone else hear this?

It is a major point, I think - anyone shed more light?

No, this is nonsense and was on the net for quite some time.

Did you ever check, when (if its true) they start their office hours?

You can blame Thailand as well. If my memory is correct BKK Post reported that a Thai office (I believe TAT) 'lost' a computer and a pick up in the garage.

The staff had not arrived, yet.

Oh yes, and the 4 planes were provided by CIA as normally no airline will take off with so small a number of passengers.

Need some more of this? It is all on the web, albeit I don't search for it.

[Boon Mee]

Joe Strawberry:

If you're only getting your news through CNN & BBC you're getting REAL Slanted stuff. Get you're cable provider or aim that satellite at FOX News - Fair & Balanced information! Not some of that Left-Wing crap.

During Slick Willy's impeachment, CNN stood for the Clinton News Network and they're still biased as h_ll. 

This is a joke, right?

Far from it my friend - you don't have to believe there's a liberal bias at CNN but just watch the coverage of the latest suicide a**hole who blows themself up in Israel taking a few dozen women/children with him/her.

What WAS the poor terrorist to do? So frustrated (read brainwashed) and abused he/she just had to give his/her life to do something! Check it out...

[strawberry]

Hi All,

there ius no way that I've suggested the Israelites be driven into the sea. Years ago in an interview with a then popular American magazine President Nassar of Egypt stated this and suggested that the Israelites needed to do the right thing by the Palestinians. Pointing out that The atrocities committed on Jews were ccarried out by Christian countries and not by Moslem countries

I was a kid at school during the WW2 and I remember very clearly seeing the News Reels at the Saturday arfo matinee. Seeing the bodies of Jews in places like Belsen was very much of a shock and can still bring tears to my eyes when I see these scenes on the history Channel. I think it was very important for Jews to have their own homeland. Over the centuries folks of the Jewish faith have been treated very badly (understatement)

There have been lawyers working constantly for years now trying to get financial reparation for injustices commited on Jews, and rightly so.

How about reparation for the Palestinians who have been evicted from their homes and their land. Homes that have been in families for generations. If anyone moved on to my land in Australia and tried to take it over they would either have to kill me or I'd give them problems. How would this go in the USA ?

I remember news photo's of Palestinian men women and children being evicted from their country under the point of a gun and that was in the 1950's.

I don't agree with the suicide bombers and I think its a terrible thing, and I don't agree with killing either with suicide bombers or with tanks and attack helicopters.

I do believe in defending myself and my family. I think its possible that if anyone hurt a member of my family I'd go looking for revenge.

All I'm saying is lets get the winkers off and look at the whole picture.

Regards Joe Strawberry

PS Boon Mee mentioned something about left wing news channels but I'll leave that for another time

[Membrane]

no Israelies were killed and no one turned up for work at the "Israel Embassy" - I am not sure which Israel "department" - did anyone else hear this?

It is a major point, I think - anyone shed more light?

Oh yeah--I heard that too!

..and I also heard that NO JEWS were killed in Nazi Germany. It was all faked by the U.S.--and JEWS!! Have you ever seen the old movie reels showing piles of dead bodies being bulldozed into huge open graves? Well, that's all just special effects, created by Hollywood and paid for by the CIA and a bunch of Jews!!

..also, the Titanic didn't really go down. It was all FAKED by Jews and Christians, in order to get the insurance pay outs! and they were trying to make the Palestinians look bad!

..and on top of that, the U.S. never went to the moon! It's actually made of green cheese, made by--more Christians and JEWS! It's a special secret recipe created by Noah--and Jesus actually wrote all about it in the Torah.

Yep.. it's all on the Internet, yep. I'm sure I can find the websites that talk about it, but I gotta smoke another bowl first... now where did Gentleman put that bong??

[Georgie-Porgie]

How about reparation for the Palestinians who have been evicted from their homes and their land. Homes that have been in families for generations. If anyone moved on to my land in Australia and tried to take it over they would either have to kill me or I'd give them problems. How would this go in the USA ?

I remember news photo's of Palestinian men women and children being evicted from their country under the point of a gun and that was in the 1950's.

I don't want to get too black and white about the situation in Israel, because it certainly isn't, but many people don't understand how Palestinians came to lose their land. The Jews didn't just throw them off of it.

The Israeli's had legally bought land for themselves, many times from landlords who then called for their destruction, to get the land back (after the Jews had turned "worthless" desert land into lush farmland). Eviction usually wasn't as strawberry described it (although is some cases, for severe punishments for example, it probably was).

During Israel's first war, the outside Arabs that had attacked the Jews and were trying to "push the Jews into the sea", asked the Palestinians to leave their homes and property and flee, to make it easy to "slaughter the Yids". The Jews had told the Palestinians that if they stayed on their land and didn't fight, they could keep it. The ones that heeded their Arab brothers calls to leave, lost their land, the ones that stayed put still own it. That is why there are so many Arabs that still have land in Israel.

The situation in Israel isn't nearly so simplistic as the Palestinians and their supporters would have the public believe. (There is also the argument that there never was an entity called "Palestine", because the whole area was mostly useless desert before the Jews worked their magic on the land).

[Georgie-Porgie]

..and I also heard that NO JEWS were killed in Nazi Germany.  It was all faked by the U.S.--and JEWS!! Have you ever seen the old movie reels showing piles of dead bodies being bulldozed into huge open graves?  Well, that's all just special effects, created by Hollywood and paid for by the CIA and a bunch of Jews!!

..and on top of that, the U.S. never went to the moon!  It's actually made of green cheese, made by--more Christians and JEWS!  It's a special secret recipe created by Noah--and Jesus actually wrote all about it in the Torah.

Yep.. it's all on the Internet, yep

Membrane, the "true" story on the piles of dead Jews was, they were actually the first people to successfully try the Atkins diet. After the photos were taken, they all got up from the piles, laughing, and ate some big juicy steaks with the Hollywood film crew!

[davidm]

4) The palestinians had a very sweet deal. 99% of what they wanted, and they still chose the gun. Why? An irrational hate, much like some of you towards us.

That's not right. Not even close. They were offered an area of land equal to about 98% of the territory annexed after the 1967 war. Some land occupied by settlers would have been retained by Israel, but other land was offered from inside the pre-1967 boundaries as compensation. Those Palestinians who had lost land since 1947 would not be allowed to return, though. This was the major stumbling block. Millions of Palestinians living in refugee camps or the squalor of places like Gaza would never have forgiven anyone who made an agreement which signed away their right to return.

That said, the Israeli offer was made in good faith and the Palestinains didn't even make a counter proposal.

To answer the original question, there are a number of reasons people have joined the various muslim terrorist groups.

1. Employment. Unemployment in Palestine is about 70%, and not much better in a lot of places in the Middle East. Al Fatah used to pay its foot soldiers $16 a month. Not a lot, but in a country with no "dole" better than nothing. Abu Nidal paid $60 per month, but there was more likelihood of committing outright terrorism and paying the price.

2. Boredom and frustration. As anyone who has been unemployed knows, life without a job or money is mind numbingly tedious. Throw in the restrictions of a muslim society and it gets even worse. More than a few muslim terrorists commit atrocities because of the sufferings imposed by their faith. They'd like nothing better than to have a drink and chat to a pretty girl after work, but none of these things are possible.

3. Ignorance. When your only source of education is a religious preacher, what are you going to believe? For poor muslims, a religious school is the only option for people who want to learn. There is no balance in what is learned. The eager, young pupil's mind is filled with the hatred and prejudice of the teacher.

4. Desperation/revenge. These candidates are either inflicting reprisals for wrongs committed to themselves or their families or seeking to protect them from a perceived threat. The Palestinian housewife-suicide bomber who made the headlines this week is a fairly good example.

5. Middle class rebellion syndrome. In the west, a few disaffected students from middle class backgrounds have taken to terrorism as a means of expression. The Baader-Meinhof gang, Action Direct and Red Army Faction are classic examples. A number of Al Quaeda leaders and middle ranking terrorists seem to fall into the same category. Richer kids, like Osama Bin Laden, are very similar.

6. Profit. There's money in terrorism, especially if, like Yasser Arafat, you can evolve into a politician.

7. Politics. Sometimes similar to #5, this person considers himself a freedom fighter. In some cases, history may judge him right. A number of Israelis fall into this category.

Most likely, a person becomes a terrorist for a combination of reasons. These are the ones I'm familiar with.

[SoCal]

Joe,

1) Lawyers are going to make justice in this world? I'm talking to Bush and going to Mars. The moon at the very least.

2) Maybe all Americans of Brittish decent can be repatriated, and Bush could be your president too. Repatriation cannot hapen. Same issue in Iraq with democracy. First things the Palestinians, who greatly outnumber Israeli citizens, would do is change the name of the country to Palestine. I'm not saying the ideal is wrong, just not possible, feasible, or beneficial (pretty much sucks.)

3) I severely doubt the Israelis would supress the Palestinians any more than US does Mexico, if the Palestinians weren't ###### bent on destroying them.

G.P., kudos for a job well done. Most people have no idea how Israel really came into being. Almost everyone thinks post world war II hand out by the U.N.

4) David, forgive me for not going into the detail you did. Fact remains that it is the sweetest deal they ever had, or ever will. When the Israeli's turned over land to Lebanon for peace in the negotiation, Arafat wrongly thought he could get more through blood.

I do strongly disagree that the Palestinians would have had it that bad. Israel wants peace with them. Israel wants them working in their economy. The world would donate hundreds of millions which Arafat would certainly embezel. The only places they would not have relative freedom to move would interestingly enough be the Arab states.

I truly feel sorry for the Palestinians they are pawns in a miserable existence. Who honestly is to blame, not Israel, not America, but the Arab leaders.

SoCal

[strawberry]

When I said ''I wondered when the arabs were going to start fighting back'' This came from a story told by a reporter. Imagine this ; A rocket from a attack helicopter hits someones house and kills the people inside. After the body parts are removed folks are cleaning up the mess and come across a piece of metal written on it MADE IN THE USA. Not just once but every time an attack helicopter or a jet plane fires a rocket at a Palestinian home or any other building. then there is the fact that the USA is supplying Israel with one and a half billion dollars per year for weapons of war. Many arabs see themselves at war with America and Israel.

According to a moslem friend of mine these things things are given loads of publicity in the Islamic press. can't you see whats happening here. Feeding hate and when you feed hate insanity developes, and these haters see suicide as the only option.

Socal I understand your anger at me I think you see me as a hater of your people and I'm not its the foreign policy I hate. It makes me feel unsafe.

Lets look at the agreement to give the Palestinians 90% of what they wanted, in land that is. In reality that wasn't true because the Israelites were continuing to build new settlements in Palestinian designated land. When asked why they were building on this land the answer was ''well the land isn't being used'' I've owned land in the past and thats not a good reason.

About my statement that Palestinians were forced out of their homes to accomodate Jews. I got this from a book that I read years ago written by an Israelite general ( whose name I can't remember) I think you will know who I mean when I tell you he was the general who wore a black eye patch. can't remember the exact wording but he did point out that they were all living in homes rightfully owned by Palestinians. many of these Palestinians still have the ownership papers but they are not recognised under Israelite law. Where is the Justice.

You ask if I'm anti semetic, well I don't think so. I see myself as believing in DEMOCRACY and JUSTICE for all. So perhaps I'm a dreamer as well. Do you mean to say you trust the lawyers to give justice. ###### I don't even trust our elected polies.

Regards Joe Strawberry

[Axel]

Moshe Dayan,

interesting fellow, but of course started in an an underground organization (Haganah) learned guerilla warfare from British, imprisoned by the British, after they outlawed the Haganah. Subsequently joined the British army.

Perhaps today, somebody would arrest him as terrorist.

I like this: link http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Dayan.html

[Boon Mee]

Joe Strawberry:

Get with the 20th Century - Joe, their called "ISRAELIS" these days...

[Georgie-Porgie]

Mr. Strawberry, are you perhaps Australian? Did you perhaps used to call yourself "the gentleman"?

If you are not the same bloke, then you definitely went to the same school and are just as informed about the rest of the Planet.

Please keep sharing all of your thoughts and "special inside knowledge" about the Israelis with us!

QUOTE (the gentleman @ Thu 2004-01-29, 09:08:28)

about 9/11

no Israelies were killed and no one turned up for work at the "Israel Embassy" - I am not sure which Israel "department" - did anyone else hear this?

It is a major point, I think - anyone shed more light? 

[Axel]

Mr. Strawberry, are you perhaps Australian? Did you perhaps used to call yourself "the gentleman"?

Georgie-Porgie, what is this?

I think you can do better.

[Georgie-Porgie]

Mr. Strawberry, are you perhaps Australian? Did you perhaps used to call yourself "the gentleman"?

Georgie-Porgie, what is this?

I think you can do better.

Axel, are you playing God again? I'm not sure what you mean by, I "can do better". I am not 100 positive about what I've suggested here, but I am very much leaning that way. The writing style and ideas are very similar, and the gentleman has suddenly mostly disappeared.

The gentleman felt that he "wasn't anti-Semetic" also, but he went on to post one of the nuttiest, most anti-Semetic posts that I have ever seen:

QUOTE (the gentleman @ Thu 2004-01-29, 09:08:28)

about 9/11

no Israelies were killed and no one turned up for work at the "Israel Embassy" - I am not sure which Israel "department" - did anyone else hear this?

It is a major point, I think - anyone shed more light? 

[strawberry]

Georgie Porgy

believe me when I tell you I'm no <deleted> gentleman. Yes I'm an Aussie citizen and proud of it. Just like you seem to be proud of being an American citizen. The difference in that is that I'm not backward in critising my government when the Bustards do the wrong thing.

Axel

Moshe Dayan. Thanks for that info.

Boon Mee

Israelites mate I've just given my age away. I'm getting weary and it will be good to be dead then I can sleep for all eternity.

love you all

Joe Strawberry

[Georgie-Porgie]

Boon Mee

Israelites mate I've just given my age away. I'm getting weary and it will be good to be dead then I can sleep for all eternity.

Well you've given something away. They haven't been called "Israelites" for something like 2,000 years.

[Georgie-Porgie]

<deleted> gentleman!

Strawberry, you shouldn't talk like that. Now he's going to be after you, instead of me!