Working For Us Company Remotely In Thailand, Work Permit?

[shiroboi]

Hello all, I'm Jesse, new to the forums. I'm going to be starting a US based App Development company soon. I'm also going to be moving to Thailand early next year. What I'd like to know, is if I'm working from home in Thailand for a company in the US and my pay is staying in my US bank, do I need to get a work permit? I guess this would be similar to people running an ebay or online business remotely from Thailand. I've spent the better part of the day searching for the answer. I would also think that a US businessman traveling to Thailand at some point is going to do work for the company, checking email, ect. Wouldn't this be similar?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Edited July 12, 2012 by shiroboi

[overherebc]

Bottom line is , if you are working you must have a work permit.

I would imagine that many take the chance and work from home etc staying under the radar, but, always remember in Thailand that if caught without a work permit you could very well be fined, deported and in the worst case blacklisted.

[falang07]

Income not related in any way with Thailand is not subject to income tax in Thailand so why bother. In the past, I have read an interview with the head of some Thai revenue office and he was saying that they were not interested in such "workers", only in people who really work in Thailand.Edited: grammar error

Edited July 12, 2012 by falang07

[falang07]

But in case that US-based company starts hiring Thais or making any business with Thailand, this could be a serious problem for you if caught...

[lopburi3]

If you live in Thailand worldwide earnings are subject to tax although at present they do not tax if not brought into country in year earned. Labor department is concerned with work permits and immigration is concerned you are staying with proper paperwork. Work permits are required.

[ThaidDown]

Yes you would be working without a work permit which is illegal.

If you keep quiet about what you are doing there is every chance that no problems will ensue, but it only takes one person (Thai or Foreigner) out of jealousy, spite or any other reason to inform the local Labour Department and you could be in trouble. Consequences could by fines or 'other' payments right up to arrest deportation and blacklisting, but as they say in these parts 'up to you'.

[w11guy]

A businessman would/should be here on a business visa, which would allow him to check emails, etc. If you're here on something like a retirement visa then that is different.

Is it easy to get a work permit if you do bits of work that may only earn you a few thousand $s a year. What do you have to show and prove to get one? Is it easier or more difficult to get than a retirement visa.

[lopburi3]

No it is not easy as you would have to be working for a Thai company and earning a full time wage for normal work permit issue for anything other than reporters/teachers/entertainers and such.

You can not have a work permit on a retirement extension if that is what is being asked. If you really are asking if getting a work permit under stated conditions is harder than obtaining a retirement extension (assuming you qualify) yes it is - retirement extension is about as easy as it gets - if you are age 50 and have the financials approval is done in minutes.

[shiroboi]

But in case that US-based company starts hiring Thais or making any business with Thailand, this could be a serious problem for you if caught...

If it gets bigger and I have to hire, I'll have my wife open a legit business in her name and I'll get a work permit. Until then, I'll probably work from home under the radar. Sounds like a very minimal risk that would be hard to prove. I'm using the computer and no money is coming into Thailand.

I'm only 35 so I'd be working for myself. I'd prefer to get a work permit but if they won't issue me one. I guess I don't have a choice.

Edited July 12, 2012 by shiroboi

[lopburi3]

I'm only 35 so I'd be working for myself. I'd prefer to get a work permit but if they won't issue me one. I guess I don't have a choice.

Actually you do seem to have a choice; unless your home country will not allow you to return.

[expat63]

But in case that US-based company starts hiring Thais or making any business with Thailand, this could be a serious problem for you if caught...

If it gets bigger and I have to hire, I'll have my wife open a legit business in her name and I'll get a work permit. Until then, I'll probably work from home under the radar. Sounds like a very minimal risk that would be hard to prove. I'm using the computer and no money is coming into Thailand.

I'm only 35 so I'd be working for myself. I'd prefer to get a work permit but if they won't issue me one. I guess I don't have a choice.

If you wife open a business, she have to hiring and pay 4 Tais for every WP.

[falang07]

That is why I say do not bother and do as everyone else is doing, just ignore the work permit in cases like this. The requirement to hire 4 Thais is just silly, and who can prove you work on your computer anyway? No one, I would not even allow anyone to check the data in my PC, just encrypt everything (e.g. using TrueCrypt).

[ubonjoe]

If married to a Thai the requirement for the number of employees required is only 2.

Plus the work permit can be issued for a sole proprietor business.

[falang07]

My opinion is this: online work can be legalized using an offshore company anywhere in the world so in case Thailand makes it quite problematic, let the other countries get the tax and Thailand gets nothing. They must realize this. I would not hire 4 Thais just for the papers. If I do not need them, I do not hire them. This is a country where no one follows the rules, especially Thais, so what. If they offer me a good value to open a business in here, I will do it. So far, this is not the case.

[Obb]

There are several thousand falangs in CM who work from their computers who do not have work permits. This number is dwindling as one by one the Thai authorities are tracking them down and deporting them.

Good luck.

[think_too_mut]

I have been to Thailand on numerous occassions for corporate conferences, 100s of people working day and night and nobody had any visa other than on arrival. All those congresses and conferences, 10s of 1000s of people every day like that, is anyone chasing and deporting them?

Unless they square on you for something else, even then, how could they tell you were earning money? Torturing you and forcing you to sign you were working?

The whole spirit of the labor law is to prevent stealing jobs from locals or compete unfairly (Burmese, Khmer illegal immigrants). The law is ancient and I doubt it would even have a slightest provision for the Internet age.

To turn the table, who would prevent or chase a Thai programmer earning money by doing work for an American company, not even paying any tax in Thai as long as the money is not flowing in?

Several times I went to Thai to do work, a heavy duty work, like installing massive systems at Thai airways, Kasikorn or Bangkok Bank, never heard any hint of any visa other than on arrival. No Thai company was paying me and that was it. Insurance and the rest was through corporate travel policy, no authorities were informed nor asked. Could be thousands of peopel like me every day coming in and out. No any visa other than arrival. And I was clearly doing business, I was on business trip, not as a tourist.

And the work was not hidden or remote, it was a full blown access to heavily guarded data centres.

Edited July 13, 2012 by think_too_mut

[falang07]

There are several thousand falangs in CM who work from their computers who do not have work permits. This number is dwindling as one by one the Thai authorities are tracking them down and deporting them.

Good luck.

Indeed? I very doubt it. How do you track it? I watch movies on my computer, I do not work. Impossible to track.

[w11guy]

There are several thousand falangs in CM who work from their computers who do not have work permits. This number is dwindling as one by one the Thai authorities are tracking them down and deporting them.

Good luck.

Indeed? I very doubt it. How do you track it? I watch movies on my computer, I do not work. Impossible to track.

It depends what you're doing. If you're doing work and getting paid into your Thai bank account then they can see the money arriving in your account. If you run an ebay store they can easily track you down via your ISP. I doubt they would do that for people not doing much work because it would be a waste of money.

These laws in all countries are based on pre-internet working. There are people openly blogging that they work in Thailand without a work visa and no-one does anything to them. I don't see why it would be an issue to the Thai authorities. The only think they would lose is the tax, but if they won't give you a work permit for work at home on your own type jobs then you can't pay the tax. It's a bit of a stupid law (in all countries) that doesn't do anything to safeguard local jobs.

To take an example. A USA man lives here and spends $24k a year, thus contributing to the Thai economy. He also had part-time work-at-home job while in the US that earned him $5k a year. So what are his options? He can't get a work permit here, so if he wants to continue his work then he should move back to USA. The Thai economy then loses $24k a year. That is just nonsense.

[shiroboi]

There are several thousand falangs in CM who work from their computers who do not have work permits. This number is dwindling as one by one the Thai authorities are tracking them down and deporting them.

Good luck.

Can you name me one example? I'm a Sys Admin by trade and I know that tracking people down for something like this is darned near impossible. I'm gonna call BS on this. The only tip off might be a steady stream of income into a bank acct which isn't the case here.

With programming or game design I could mostly unplug my computer from the internet and still get my work done. Other than encrypted file transfers, There's no suspicious data coming in or out. Even Sunbelt's advice was that this was mostly an exception to the rule. The Thai police would literally have to walk into your house and see you working on the computer.

The more I think about it, it may look better on paper to have a regular day job with a work permit and do this stuff in my spare time.

[maprao]

Do it from home. Behind locked doors do not tell anyone.

If you are a US citizen consult someone like sunbelt and open a company. Under the treaty of Amity between the US and Thailand you ahve a few advantages..

"To form this new company and qualify for a work permit, you must have 3 million baht in registered capital.

4 Thai employees are required per work permit.

There can be an unlimited amount of American directors, but to be “hands on” or working they MUST have a work permit."

Good luck with the venture.

[think_too_mut]

There are several thousand falangs in CM who work from their computers who do not have work permits. This number is dwindling as one by one the Thai authorities are tracking them down and deporting them.

Good luck.

Can you name me one example? I'm a Sys Admin by trade and I know that tracking people down for something like this is darned near impossible. I'm gonna call BS on this. The only tip off might be a steady stream of income into a bank acct which isn't the case here.

With programming or game design I could mostly unplug my computer from the internet and still get my work done. Other than encrypted file transfers, There's no suspicious data coming in or out. Even Sunbelt's advice was that this was mostly an exception to the rule. The Thai police would literally have to walk into your house and see you working on the computer.

The more I think about it, it may look better on paper to have a regular day job with a work permit and do this stuff in my spare time.

However the labor laws may be archaic, not even this very child of the Internet (ThaiVisa Forum)can grasp the novelty.

SunBelt Asia are qualified but what else they have to go by other than current laws?

It's a flux. There you can do work on your PC with "don't ask don't tell". The laws are far behind, not only in Thai.

[shiroboi]

I'm only 35 so I'd be working for myself. I'd prefer to get a work permit but if they won't issue me one. I guess I don't have a choice.

Actually you do seem to have a choice; unless your home country will not allow you to return.

That's not really much of a choice. Every country has to deal with crappy outdated laws that people don't agree with. I'm not even in Thailand yet. I'm going there for family reasons, I haven't nailed down my income sources yet but I still have time and options.

Edited July 13, 2012 by shiroboi

[falang07]

It depends what you're doing. If you're doing work and getting paid into your Thai bank account then they can see the money arriving in your account.

Seriously, I doubt anyone wise enough to be able to work online would be that stupid to get paid directly to a Thai account. If you have an offshore company, you get paid to the offshore bank. The thing about thousands being tracked and deported sooner or later is just bullsh*t, does not make any sense. These people spend money in Thailand, and Thailand needs them. If they ever change the law and allow them to open a sole proprietorship in here, Thai economy would gain even more of their money in terms of the tax and also services provided through the accountants etc. For now, this is a net income for the offshore countries.

Edited July 14, 2012 by falang07

[expat63]

There are several thousand falangs in CM who work from their computers who do not have work permits. This number is dwindling as one by one the Thai authorities are tracking them down and deporting them.

Good luck.

Can you name me one example? I'm a Sys Admin by trade and I know that tracking people down for something like this is darned near impossible. I'm gonna call BS on this. The only tip off might be a steady stream of income into a bank acct which isn't the case here.

With programming or game design I could mostly unplug my computer from the internet and still get my work done. Other than encrypted file transfers, There's no suspicious data coming in or out. Even Sunbelt's advice was that this was mostly an exception to the rule. The Thai police would literally have to walk into your house and see you working on the computer.

The more I think about it, it may look better on paper to have a regular day job with a work permit and do this stuff in my spare time.

You say you are system administrator. Then you should know that if they want, they can track down every keystroke on your computer as long as you are online. Another think, I don't its very wise to talk to much about this thing on TV. You can be 100% sure some people are reading everything that are written here

[falang07]

This is another bullshit, no one can track your keystrokes unless you have an infected computer with some sophisticated virus which is highly improbable in case of a sys admin.

[falang07]

Another think, I don't its very wise to talk to much about this thing on TV. You can be 100% sure some people are reading everything that are written here

Yes, I really hope that someone from the Thai government is reading this and finally realizes that Thailand could only profit if they do something about allowing foreigners working online to open sole proprietorships in here. If not, people working online can easily find other ways, and Thailand will keep loosing its share in their profits.

[shiroboi]

There are several thousand falangs in CM who work from their computers who do not have work permits. This number is dwindling as one by one the Thai authorities are tracking them down and deporting them.

Good luck.

Can you name me one example? I'm a Sys Admin by trade and I know that tracking people down for something like this is darned near impossible. I'm gonna call BS on this. The only tip off might be a steady stream of income into a bank acct which isn't the case here.

With programming or game design I could mostly unplug my computer from the internet and still get my work done. Other than encrypted file transfers, There's no suspicious data coming in or out. Even Sunbelt's advice was that this was mostly an exception to the rule. The Thai police would literally have to walk into your house and see you working on the computer.

The more I think about it, it may look better on paper to have a regular day job with a work permit and do this stuff in my spare time.

You say you are system administrator. Then you should know that if they want, they can track down every keystroke on your computer as long as you are online. Another think, I don't its very wise to talk to much about this thing on TV. You can be 100% sure some people are reading everything that are written here

Wow, on TV? Really? You sure sound up on your network security.

I think you're referring to a key logger. That would have to be placed on my system by a skilled hacker. I'm not saying its impossible, but don't think that the Thai Government has the resources to monitor every Farang that comes to Thailand, especially looking for material that isn't illegal. I use dropbox to share files. That uses SSL and AES 256 bit encryption. Darn near impossible to break. Not that I have anything to hide.

Bottom line is most of what I'm transferring is pictures and artwork and the occasional chatting. Pretty plain Jane stuff. Also hard to say that it's not a hobby. Art has been my hobby for the last 20 years.

[shiroboi]

Another think, I don't its very wise to talk to much about this thing on TV. You can be 100% sure some people are reading everything that are written here

Yes, I really hope that someone from the Thai government is reading this and finally realizes that Thailand could only profit if they do something about allowing foreigners working online to open sole proprietorships in here. If not, people working online can easily find other ways, and Thailand will keep loosing its share in their profits.

I agree 100%. I'm an honest guy, I want to be legal and I want to be taxed.

[falang07]

People have been married happily for more than 8 years and still many times shit happens. We are just people, one day we love each other, and next day we hate each other. If you want to risk, up to you, but if I have to spend big money alone (i.e. if the house is not going to be paid from the money we earn together), I want to have it in my name, or at least half of it, but no way 100% in someone's name. And we can continue to love each other regardless of the money, as before.

[technologybytes]

There is just too much BS being talked here on this subject.

If you work for a USA company that has no Thailand offices etc and you are paid into a US bank account then you do not need a work permit if you are just doing work on your computer.

I know this because over the years I have checked with immigration IN PERSON and asked the exact same question, each time the immigration officers have told me

1/ We are not interested in these circumstances and

2/ You cannot apply for a work permit in these circumstances anyway.

I appreciate (of course) that work permits are not issued by immigration and so i have checked answer 2 with the relevant authority and it's confirmed.

Of course, depending on how you read the law (written in Thai of course, and don't expect an accurate translation on here) you may disagree on how the letter of the law applies, but as with everything it's the application of the law and the way it's interpreted that matters.

Regarding the tracking down and deportation BS, show me 1 instance of someone being deported for 1st offence of working without a permit.. you cannot, the maximum penalty is a small fine for 1st offence and thats for real working without a permit like running a shop or a bar etc. In fact it's much more serious to have an inappropriate work permit or to have a work permit and not be working!