Working For Us Company Remotely In Thailand, Work Permit?

[Jingthing]

Dude, prostitution is illegal in Thailand. When was the last time a punter was prosecuted or a street walker got more than a 200 baht fine? Yes, enforcement policies are relevant. Online invisible workers are indeed generally OK. Drug dealers not so much.

[Soutpeel]

OK, so once again and slowly, imagine this situation:

I have an offshore company (i.e. registered outside Thailand) that I work for online (i.e. by sitting in front of the computer and typing on the keyboard in my room somewhere in Thailand, or anywhere else, depends where I am at the moment). My customers are not from Thailand, the company bank account is in the country where my company is registered, i.e. not in Thailand. Any money I ever remit to Thailand for my personal use is always sent in the next year after they are earned. How in the Earth could I get a Thai work permit for such work and for a foreign registered company that has nothing to do with Thailand? This income is not subject to Thai income tax either, even if I would be a tax resident of Thailand and told them about this work, they are simply not going to tax me. So I might go and try to make a work permit, but based on what? It simply does not make any sense, and why would anyone bother is also beyond my imagination. If you sell on ebay and ship from Thailand, this would be of course different, but in case of service providers it is clearly not needed/possible.

Ok lets remove all references you have made to money, company bank accounts, offshore accounts and income tax, as they are not even relevant in terms of a Thai WP, simply because you need a WP to be a volunteer...ie you are not being paid anything...so all these areas are completely irrelevant.

Imagine this situation...you service your customers from Thailand via a Thai registered company and you if set up correctly you can get a WP, shipping stuff on ebay from Thailand and requiring a WP is no different from what you are doing...you are still physically working from Thailand, and this is what the law refer's to

[Soutpeel]

Dude, prostitution is illegal in Thailand. When was the last time a punter was prosecuted or a street walker got more than a 200 baht fine? Yes, enforcement policies are relevant. Online invisible workers are indeed generally OK. Drug dealers not so much.

I dont have a problem with people working here without a WP...I couldnt care less, good luck to them if they get away with it...but the debate is whether its "officially legal"...certain people are suggesting it is, but it appears other people, including certain immigration and DOL offiicials are of a different opinion.

The OP asked a question whether is legal, he has had his opinions from various posters and understand any possibly consquences if he happens to get caught out, so the bottom line is now...it up to him if he wants to take the chance.

[Jingthing]

OK, I get that. Is it technically legal? Probably not. Does that matter for most people? Probably not.

[Jodokus]

Soutpeel, DOL does NOT issue letters with statements. They either refuse or approve an WP application. Period. If not supported by a Thai company or foreign company with an office in Thailand, your application for WP will be DENIED. It's that simple. Because of insisting nitwits on forums before I applied several times for one based upon my situation as described before. It was consistently denied by DOL in every case. Repeated denied applications are to my knowledge enough legal proof in Thailand to counter any attempt of immigration or DOL to extradite me.

Unless you are a proven expert in the field of international tax laws and associated laws, I sincerely think you must be unknowingly on an other planet.

[Jingthing]

Also keep in mind different immigration offices will treat this differently. I am talking now about situations where are online person is grassed out. I think some might feel compelled to investigate and some wouldn't.

[Soutpeel]

OK, I get that. Is it technically legal? Probably not. Does that matter for most people? Probably not.

Jing...exactly..this is the point I am trying to get across, would he get caught most likely not, but still needs to be aware that is "probably not legal" and the OP understands the possible consequences, as has been stated many times in this thread, the way the law is written it is open to interpretation and the only "correct" interpretation at a particular moment in time, is the immigration/DOL official who is dealing with your case

[Soutpeel]

Soutpeel, DOL does NOT issue letters with statements. They either refuse or approve an WP application. Period. If not supported by a Thai company or foreign company with an office in Thailand, your application for WP will be DENIED. It's that simple. Because of insisting nitwits on forums before I applied several times for one based upon my situation as described before. It was consistently denied by DOL in every case. Repeated denied applications are to my knowledge enough legal proof in Thailand to counter any attempt of immigration or DOL to extradite me.

Unless you are a proven expert in the field of international tax laws and associated laws, I sincerely think you must be unknowingly on an other planet.

What have international tax laws got to do with any of this ?...irrelevant.....if you have applied for a WP and been denied then, if you carry on working, you must certainly be working illegally then as you cannot be issued a WP without the support of a Thai entity and why would immigration or the DOL extradite you ?

[Shot]

I put up a post in the business section asking Sunbelt to weigh in on the subject. Hopefully, they'll have more of an official answer.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/570294-sunbelt-can-you-weigh-in-on-this-topic/

[inthepink]

Yes. it's ridiculous to ask people to show you written proof that they do not need a work permit. Has anybody ever got such a letter for any reason? I doubt if immigration / labour officials would waste their time writing letters for people that didn't need them.

Ok...show me any official goverment document which states that you dont need a WP then when working on line in Thailand, as it appears phuket immigration/DOL are of the opinion that you do need one, and I am not taking about a document which somebody is rationalising as to what it means...

No.

I think what people are interested in is the application of the law rather than the letter (no pun intended) of the law, as somebody mentioned earlier.

To be 100% safe, you would need documented proof as you say but I think most people are happy enough to accept the word of insiders on the matter.

Whilst I wouldn't recommend that people take risks, posts claiming that there are thousands of people working online in CM (Chiang Mai?) and that they are being systematically picked off by the police are clearly delusional.

[tombkk]

Yes. it's ridiculous to ask people to show you written proof that they do not need a work permit. Has anybody ever got such a letter for any reason? I doubt if immigration / labour officials would waste their time writing letters for people that didn't need them.

That's true. However, the law does state what activities require a work permit.

Again, if someone is here on a business trip or a vacation and answers his emails, the Thai Government couldn't care less. But if someone stays here long-time and makes his living while being in Thailand, be it on the Internet or otherwise, Thai law does require that he has a work permit.

That's not difficult to understand, is it? Live in the country, do your job, and have a work permit. Live somewhere else and work there, no need for a work permit. Easy.

[tombkk]

You still do not get it, why should anyone make a WP for services provided exclusively to foreign clients when this work is not considered as done in the country where he/she sits behind the PC, but in the country of the customer.

For reference see e.g.: http://customs.hmrc....029955#P38_5204 --

2.4.1 The B2B general rule

The B2B general rule for supplies of services is that the supply is made where the customer belongs (see section 5).

2.4.2 The B2C general rule

The B2C general rule for supplies of services is that the supply is made where the supplier belongs (see section 5).

Interesting rules about the UK, but totally off-topic here.

[inthepink]

Yes. it's ridiculous to ask people to show you written proof that they do not need a work permit. Has anybody ever got such a letter for any reason? I doubt if immigration / labour officials would waste their time writing letters for people that didn't need them.

That's true. However, the law does state what activities require a work permit.

Again, if someone is here on a business trip or a vacation and answers his emails, the Thai Government couldn't care less. But if someone stays here long-time and makes his living while being in Thailand, be it on the Internet or otherwise, Thai law does require that he has a work permit.

That's not difficult to understand, is it? Live in the country, do your job, and have a work permit. Live somewhere else and work there, no need for a work permit. Easy.

I have no problem understanding the laws, certainly.

[Jodokus]

"What have international tax laws got to do with any of this ?...irrelevant.....if you have applied for a WP and been denied then, if you carry on working, you must certainly be working illegally then as you cannot be issued a WP without the support of a Thai entity and why would immigration or the DOL extradite you ?"

The fact that one works without a WP issued by the DOL does not automatically implies that one is working illegal. It just means that one is "working" without a WP, nothing more. The repeated refusals of the DOL to issue a WP in my case, clearly signals that in Thailand there is no rule, regulation or law that applies to this or similar situations. Which leaves the DOL without authority in those matters.

Concerning your rhetoric question about international tax laws and the immediate following dismissal "irrelevant" proofs that you really have no clue with what kind of laws/regulations you're dealing with. If you do not understand this, well, I advice you to consult a proper law practicer that does know about it.

Why would immigration or DOL (together or each on its own) extradite you? What do you think about breaking Thai laws and not having the Thai nationality?

The problem with internet and its forums is that it provides an enormous amount of information, but one cannot know if the provided information comes from a knowledgable source or a complete idiot. And that makes it a tricky business to take anything serious on the web.

[Jodokus]

I would suggest that anybody that is interested in the matter and wants to know more about to visit the website of Department of Labour on:

http://wp.doe.go.th/en/downloadform

All the docs you might need can be downloaded from there, and you will find all the explanation you need.

I cannot find anything on their site that confuses me, so I fail to understand the confusion in this topic.

[Jodokus]

And here is link to the law:

http://wp.doe.go.th/sites/eng/aliens_act.pdf

[Satcommlee]

Link to article?

http://www.phuketgaz...ils.asp?id=1175

No ambiguity or misunderstanding from Immigation offical concerned or from the DOL official quoted

This topic has been discussed many times at length on TV, and I will change my opinion on what is legal the day someone publishes a letter from the Thai DOL or Thai immigration stating that "person XYZ" passport number XXXXXXXis offiically permitted to work on-line without a WP ", until that time..."what a senior official at immigration told me" or "what a Thai embassy or consulate told me" is completely irrelevant..

Finally, some official information. They make it sound so easy though to apply for a work permit if you're working online. Kinda funny when they won't give you one.

This caught my eye as well "“Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

The first thing to do is get the proper business visa. Foreigners with any other type of visa generally cannot apply for a work permit.

An exception to that rule is made for foreigners legally married to Thai citizens."

I will be in Thailand on a Marriage Visa. They said that you can get a work permit because of that. I'm wondering if the work permit restrictions are the same. I'd love to know more about that exception.

Being on the Marriage Visa makes the process a little easier.

The number of Thai Staff need only be 2 (but they may waive this requirement for first year)

You only need 1 million capital

They are more inclined to accept your application because you support a Thai

[tombkk]

"What have international tax laws got to do with any of this ?...irrelevant.....if you have applied for a WP and been denied then, if you carry on working, you must certainly be working illegally then as you cannot be issued a WP without the support of a Thai entity and why would immigration or the DOL extradite you ?"

The fact that one works without a WP issued by the DOL does not automatically implies that one is working illegal. It just means that one is "working" without a WP, nothing more. The repeated refusals of the DOL to issue a WP in my case, clearly signals that in Thailand there is no rule, regulation or law that applies to this or similar situations. Which leaves the DOL without authority in those matters.

Concerning your rhetoric question about international tax laws and the immediate following dismissal "irrelevant" proofs that you really have no clue with what kind of laws/regulations you're dealing with. If you do not understand this, well, I advice you to consult a proper law practicer that does know about it.

Why would immigration or DOL (together or each on its own) extradite you? What do you think about breaking Thai laws and not having the Thai nationality?

The problem with internet and its forums is that it provides an enormous amount of information, but one cannot know if the provided information comes from a knowledgable source or a complete idiot. And that makes it a tricky business to take anything serious on the web.

I agree with the last paragraph.

Other than that, working without a work permit is illegal. If the Labour Department does not issue a WP to you, it does not mean that you can legally work without WP. It means you are not allowed to work. If you do work, it is illegal. Sorry to break your bubble.

[Soutpeel]

Why would immigration or DOL (together or each on its own) extradite you? What do you think about breaking Thai laws and not having the Thai nationality?

One assumes you are talking about deportation then,not extradition.

and once again what has international tax law got to do with any of this...it hasnt...taxation international or Thai has absolutely not at all to do with issuance of a Thai WP in the first instance

[p_brownstone]

The fact that one works without a WP issued by the DOL does not automatically implies that one is working illegal. It just means that one is "working" without a WP, nothing more. The repeated refusals of the DOL to issue a WP in my case, clearly signals that in Thailand there is no rule, regulation or law that applies to this or similar situations. Which leaves the DOL without authority in those matters.

To work in Thailand you need a Work Permit - fact.

The DOL refused you a Work Permit because your situation does not meet the requirements they have set for the issue of a Work Permit.

It is quite ridiculous to imply that their refusal means you are not covered by the Law and thus can Work, it simply means that you have to set yourself up in such a way as to meet the criteria they have set!

Once you do that they will issue you with a Work Permit so you are then working legally.

Patrick

[Soutpeel]

Other than that, working without a work permit is illegal. If the Labour Department does not issue a WP to you, it does not mean that you can legally work without WP. It means you are not allowed to work. If you do work, it is illegal. Sorry to break your bubble.

Exactly.....

[Jodokus]

There are laws that precede other laws, so before the working alien act comes into focus one could first look at other laws that apply and have a higher priority. Those laws define wether the activities or energy you deploy can or may be considered as work. If the conclusion out of that is, that those activities cannot be considered as work as defined in the working alien act, you do NOT need a WP nor will those activities be illegal.

Some like to battle on a forum about their being right or wrong. Others just go out into the fields and figure things out in the real world. A simple logical approach out there can reveal a truth not dreamed of on TV. I've handed more than enough clues by now, so the rest you have to do yourself. It is not worth the energy to explain that the world is round to fanatic 15th century believers of a pancake world.

There is a definition of the law of entropy other than the one of thermo dynamics, that explains that output is directly related to the input. In other words; the results of your actions depends greatly on the amount of energy and intelligence you put in.

[tombkk]

There are laws that precede other laws, so before the working alien act comes into focus one could first look at other laws that apply and have a higher priority. Those laws define wether the activities or energy you deploy can or may be considered as work. If the conclusion out of that is, that those activities cannot be considered as work as defined in the working alien act, you do NOT need a WP nor will those activities be illegal.

Some like to battle on a forum about their being right or wrong. Others just go out into the fields and figure things out in the real world. A simple logical approach out there can reveal a truth not dreamed of on TV. I've handed more than enough clues by now, so the rest you have to do yourself. It is not worth the energy to explain that the world is round to fanatic 15th century believers of a pancake world.

There is a definition of the law of entropy other than the one of thermo dynamics, that explains that output is directly related to the input. In other words; the results of your actions depends greatly on the amount of energy and intelligence you put in.

Just point out the law that you think applies to working without a work permit is legal for a foreigner in Thailand.

Failing that, I will consider you a troll and act accordingly.

[Jodokus]

Sounds like "give me all your money or I shoot". You're free to consider what you want and act accordingly. Question is "is it going to help you in your pursuit?". I don't think so.

[Satcommlee]

The biggest problem is the text of the Law being out-dated.

Do I need a work permit to mow my lawn? or paint my fence? or even to clean my car? It's not clear.

As already stated there is no provision for remote workers and it is up to the officials own interpretations of the law.

If I come on a 30 day Visa exemption on my annual leave, and I end up dealing with a customer on the telephone and by email for a day, would I also be subject to deportation?

What about the millions that come on business every year, do they all go through the work permit procedure?

I think the truth is that the OP would never encounter any problems and doesn't have much to fear unless it becomes obvious that he is working.

They target illegal workers that are openly flouting the law, such as those attending offices on a daily basis or perhaps being managers of bars etc..

Thailand is a very relaxed country, there is no Gestapo here, nobody is spying on you waiting to pounce on you for the slightest infringement.

If the OP is not doing business with other Thais and not taking cash off Thais, then he really has nothing to worry about in my opinion.

When I first started working in Thailand I used to get temporary work permits that were issued on the same day and lasted for two week durations, but that was because I was actually sweating on the job and in the public eye.

But as already stated jealously can be a very dangerous thing, if you can work/live here earning good money then there is always somebody ready to drop you in it.

[tombkk]

Sounds like "give me all your money or I shoot". You're free to consider what you want and act accordingly. Question is "is it going to help you in your pursuit?". I don't think so.

That's very Machiavellian, I'd say. I am surprised that you said it is legal to work if your application for the work permit has been rejected. I would like to know more about this, kindly explain and point to the law that says so.

Thailand has rules and regulations for issuing work permits, and you clearly did not comply (otherwise they would have issued it). Therefore, they did not give you permission to work. If you do it anyway, you are indeed working illegally. Your statement that the denial of permission to work makes it legal to work without permission requires some logic that escapes me.

[ThaidDown]

Agree completely with Satcomlee that the law is outdated and needs revising, 'remote working' probably did not exist when the law was drawn up. I believe the law actually defines working as 'expending energy' so I guess breathing is technically a violation.

The concept of 'they will not give me a wp because under their rules I'm not entitled to one, therefore I don't need one' is interesting and maybe can be expanded to other departments.

If Immigration refuse to give me an extension (do not satisfy their requirements) then, obviously I do not need one and can stay legally.

Even expand it to daily living, if the local Lotus refuses to give me a receipt ( because I do not want to pay) I'm surely entitled to wheel the trolley full of goods out of the store with no hindrance.

Yes I like this concept very much.

[Jodokus]

Machiavelli was a farang, not an Asian. What works there does not necessarily works here.

"A man visits a Zen master in order to become a monk. The master invites him to drink tea with him. While they wait for the tea, the man tells the master about how much he already read about Buddhism and enlightenment. The tea arrives and the master starts to poor in tea for his visitor. To the surprise of the man, the master keeps on pooring the tea and starts spilling it over the edge of the cup. When the visitor asks why the master didn't stop when the cup was full the master answered: Your mind is full with books and alleged knowledge. Everything I would try to teach you, will spill over just like the tea". Come back when your head is empty.

Machiavelli, Lotus, daily shoppings etc. you catch my drift?

[shiroboi]

Hey, if you guys didn't click on the aforementioned link, here is Sunbelt's official response.

"While Thai law does require anyone working in Thailand to have a work permit we have been told by the Labor Department that they generally do not require a work permit for those checking emails and doing some work from home remotely. However, if you are selling on Ebay and have boxes of goods in your home this would be looked at in a different light and we have been told that they would expect you to have a company and work permit for this kind of exporting."

Interesting hearing other opinions. It's good information. There's a possibility that I may not be moving to Thailand yet, my wife's contract job just got extended but the baby is due in January. I hate uncertainty. At this point, I think I'd probably get an IT or computer/art teaching job full time with a work permit and maybe do some game work on the side at night.

[w11guy]

There is a huge difference between something that may be technically illegal and the actual enforcement. Many laws are outdated and irrelevant. Just because those laws exist doesn't mean that you will be prosecuted for breaking them. Too many paranoid people on here.