Thai Court Says Referendum Needed For Constitution Change

[metisdead]

Insulting and baiting posts have been removed as well off topic video post.

[frankco]

They save the country for further troubles.

[SuneeTH]

<deleted>, forget about the sex. It didn't happen. Stop even bringing it up.

The issue is, she had a secret meeting with business people related to decisions that were to be made in parliament. Initially she said there was no meeting, then it was a private meeting, and finally it was government related.

Forget about the sex? that is the difficult part.

It didn't happen? How can you be sure, were you there?

Stop even bringing it up? Just like Thai school kids, no freedom to ask questions.

[SABloke]

<deleted>, forget about the sex. It didn't happen. Stop even bringing it up.

The issue is, she had a secret meeting with business people related to decisions that were to be made in parliament. Initially she said there was no meeting, then it was a private meeting, and finally it was government related.

Forget about the sex? that is the difficult part.

It didn't happen? How can you be sure, were you there?

Stop even bringing it up? Just like Thai school kids, no freedom to ask questions.

The sex really isn't relevant. Anyone can have sex if they want, even PMs. It's the fact that a PM meets in secret with a powerful businessman that happens to deal in a field that directly crosses lines with the PMs personal business field.

Do you ever have a point, or do you just like to b**ch and moan?

Edited July 30, 2012 by Maestro

[FOODLOVER]

School House Rock!

This made a lot more sense when there was a discussion previousely which has been deleted about educating the Thai public about bills and one of the persons mentioned that their was a little cartoon that explained these type things in America and that they could possibly do this here. Thus School House Rock. Hope it makes some sense now.

Edited July 14, 2012 by FOODLOVER

[Scott]

Replies to deleted posts have been deleted.

I note that there are some off-topic posts as well. This is not about the PM's business or personal life. Stay on topic.

[Moruya]

To follow up on the above debate, the democrats were not only wrong but criminal to start the whole legal action.

They know it was baseless and without merit and likely to start more trouble in the street but they went with it anyway. Why ? Because Abhisit is widely seen as spineless and out of touch with the country and his own party, so something has to be done to show that he was doing "something".

As some have already point out, the democrats have nothing much to propose to improve the lot of the Thai people, the current administration is doing a excellent job for that. Everybody, from the USA to the IMF, is praising Ms Yingluck for her actions to restore Thaiand good name on the international scene. So the only way for Abhisit to stay on the headline is to stir up trouble. Our only luck is he is as incompoetent for that as to win election.

Re ; "the democrats were criminal to start the whole legal action."

Re ; "praising Ms Yingluck for her actions to restore Thailand good name on the international scene."

I suggest you do a bit of background reading about your PTP heroes, before you accuse other people of non-existent crimes, and making wild claims about how Yingluck & PTP's shameful criminal actions are viewed internationally.

PTP have broken a number of human-rights UDHR laws, Thai privacy laws, Asean data-protection laws, and conspiracy/terrorism laws , in relation to their home address / threatening dissenters crime.

The PM has a 10% voting record, extremely high absenteeism record, and she refuses to engage in unscripted democratic debate or otherwise govern within acceptable parliamentary democracy standards and guidelines.

PTP are ruled by a fugitive convicted criminal. He is guilty of ordering the deaths of approx 3000~ people and stealing hundreds of billions from Thailand while in office.

PTP cabinet and higher membership consist of out-on-bail criminals. PTP use state funds intended to benefit Thailand, to pay their own criminal members' bail.

PTP Somsak, is currently being impeached for serious abuses in his House Speaker role, in which he has been caught on tape admitting to discussing Thailand's state affairs with unelected foreign powers. In the dictionary that is a crime of 'treason'. However you look at it PTP are criminal on every level and are serial abusers of democratic office.

Indeed Yunla.

If the PTP had any morals they would resign in shame

[MaiChai]

Taksin keeps coming up with these ideas for a 'quick return'. The reality is that there are checks and balances in place, and the current political structure will remain (eg government below judiciary, which is below army, which in turn is below the monarchy). Thus he probably realises the constitution rewrite route will be a long winded way to get back and there is a very good chance he won't get back AND get his money. So I believe there will be a rethink and the constitution rewrite will become less important (although hot heads like Jatuporn, etal will want to continue to fight for it).

The irony is alot of time, effort and money have been spent for one poo yai who is not prepared to loose a little face and go to jail. Not to mention the turmoil it has created in the country. The other irony is that he would probably garner alot of sympathy if he did his jail time and there is a very high chance it will get reduced considerably if he accepts the verdict, admits his crimes and shows some remorse. There is alot to be said to taking the middle path in life...

[Babcock]

To follow up on the above debate, the democrats were not only wrong but criminal to start the whole legal action.

They know it was baseless and without merit and likely to start more trouble in the street but they went with it anyway. Why ? Because Abhisit is widely seen as spineless and out of touch with the country and his own party, so something has to be done to show that he was doing "something".

As some have already point out, the democrats have nothing much to propose to improve the lot of the Thai people, the current administration is doing a excellent job for that. Everybody, from the USA to the IMF, is praising Ms Yingluck for her actions to restore Thaiand good name on the international scene. So the only way for Abhisit to stay on the headline is to stir up trouble. Our only luck is he is as incompoetent for that as to win election.

What infuriated and showed the claims made by the democrats and the pad were baseless was the absence of any specific allegation merely a general smear campaign

And the democrats refused/ ignored requests to provide any evidence for their claims other than the well worn claim about getting thaksin his money back and the ott claim that it was all a plot to remove the constitution with the king as head of state.

When you see the pad's current claim that it's all about handing sovereignty

To the US and western big business ignoring of course the work of ASEAN praised by the IMF and you see these loose cannon lackeys of the elite making ludicrous childish claims against this government.

In this atmosphere why should yingluk bother debating with abhisit.

If he was still pm Thailand would probably be at war with Cambodia now to steal the oil wealth in the sea for certain families.

[JurgenG]

PTP are ruled by a fugitive convicted criminal. He is guilty of ordering the deaths of approx 3000~ people and stealing hundreds of billions from Thailand while in office.

Just in case we needed further proof that inflation was totally out of control in lala land.

Edited July 14, 2012 by JurgenG

[Moruya]

PTP are ruled by a fugitive convicted criminal. He is guilty of ordering the deaths of approx 3000~ people and stealing hundreds of billions from Thailand while in office.

Just in case we wanted further proof that inflation was totally out of control in lala land

It's more than you get in the Red Shirts' million man march

[tlansford]

The court also ruled that the people could invoke Article 68 to bypass public prosecutors to file the complaints with the court directly

this is the part i'm uncomfortable with though, i honestly don't think it was written to mean that anyone off the street can complain directly to the constitution court without reporting it to someone lower on the ladder first. i mean when you look at what's written and think about it logically of course.. but they were never going to rule that their interference was wrong, that was a given.

however if the dems use the monarchy again to make the court interfere again, they'll have zero credibility left.

This was the part of the CC decision where the justices cemented their own power to basically jump in to the middle of almost any conflict including legislative debates. A bit circular as the ruling is a precedent to justify in the future what they already did...

[robertson468]

Constitution amendment needs to be done carefully and put to a public referendum for each change. For each change, the people need to be able to keep the existing clause or select one or more alternatives.

Politicians cannot be trusted with changes as important as this and going via public referendum reduces the chances of corruption. Fair and Democratic.

The Constitutional Court has also very cleverly initiated the precedence in law whereby people can now invoke article 88 and by pass the public prosecutors, which means it is now embedded in Thai Law. The result of this is controversial issues may be referred to the Constitutional Court and Politicians do not have a redress against this procedure in future. Hopefully this will form one of the many needed checks and balances needed in Thai Politics.

Edited July 14, 2012 by robertson468

[gregb]

Constitution amendment needs to be done carefully and put to a public referendum for each change. For each change, the people need to be able to keep the existing clause or select one or more alternatives.

Politicians cannot be trusted with changes as important as this and going via public referendum reduces the chances of corruption. Fair and Democratic.

The Constitutional Court has also very cleverly initiated the precedence in law whereby people can now invoke article 88 and by pass the public prosecutors, which means it is now embedded in Thai Law. The result of this is controversial issues may be referred to the Constitutional Court and Politicians do not have a redress against this procedure in future. Hopefully this will form one of the many needed checks and balances needed in Thai Politics.

Finally. Someone who recognizes how important this decision is for the people of Thailand, and what it means for the future. I was beginning to think everyone had gone mad.

[bigbamboo]

To follow up on the above debate, the democrats were not only wrong but criminal to start the whole legal action.

They know it was baseless and without merit and likely to start more trouble in the street but they went with it anyway. Why ? Because Abhisit is widely seen as spineless and out of touch with the country and his own party, so something has to be done to show that he was doing "something".

As some have already point out, the democrats have nothing much to propose to improve the lot of the Thai people, the current administration is doing a excellent job for that. Everybody, from the USA to the IMF, is praising Ms Yingluck for her actions to restore Thaiand good name on the international scene. So the only way for Abhisit to stay on the headline is to stir up trouble. Our only luck is he is as incompoetent for that as to win election.

What infuriated and showed the claims made by the democrats and the pad were baseless was the absence of any specific allegation merely a general smear campaign

And the democrats refused/ ignored requests to provide any evidence for their claims other than the well worn claim about getting thaksin his money back and the ott claim that it was all a plot to remove the constitution with the king as head of state.

When you see the pad's current claim that it's all about handing sovereignty

To the US and western big business ignoring of course the work of ASEAN praised by the IMF and you see these loose cannon lackeys of the elite making ludicrous childish claims against this government.

In this atmosphere why should yingluk bother debating with abhisit.

If he was still pm Thailand would probably be at war with Cambodia now to steal the oil wealth in the sea for certain families.

When did Yingluck ever bother debating with Abisit?

And you can't blame her considering it would only have taken a single figure percentage vote swing for the Dems to have beaten PT.at the last election.

[waza]

A public referendum is a real problem for Thaksin as he cant rely on his own redshirts to support it......

Thaksin has bid to rally his red shirt United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) group, imploring in a fiery speech on June 2 to fight back against attempts to "steal" power from the people.

During the same speech, Thaksin said he had been "betrayed", though without saying by whom, and regretted that red shirts had been "forced to drink their own blood". He also lambasted a 2010 Supreme Court decision that confiscated US$1.4 billion of his wealth and served as a spark for the red shirt protests that paralyzed Bangkok's commercial hub and degenerated into violence in April-May 2010.

The rousing oratory harked back to earlier speeches where Thaksin urged his followers to stage a "social revolution" and marked a notably hard turn from his more conciliatory May 19 message, where he called on red shirts to put aside their grievances, including demands for justice for those killed during the April-May 2010 clashes between protestors and troops, for the sake of national reconciliation and his return from exile. http://www.atimes.co...a/NF08Ae01.html

However, the has secured the support of some of the military...........

Thaksin's camp and the top brass led by army commander Gen Prayuth Chan-ocha have found common cause in the four reconciliation bills' amnesty provision. Significantly, the provision would not challenge the legal basis of the 2006 coup and would absolve soldiers of responsibility for the killings of presumably scores of civilian red shirt protestors during the 2010 crackdown. http://www.atimes.co...a/NF08Ae01.html

[Moruya]

To follow up on the above debate, the democrats were not only wrong but criminal to start the whole legal action.

They know it was baseless and without merit and likely to start more trouble in the street but they went with it anyway. Why ? Because Abhisit is widely seen as spineless and out of touch with the country and his own party, so something has to be done to show that he was doing "something".

As some have already point out, the democrats have nothing much to propose to improve the lot of the Thai people, the current administration is doing a excellent job for that. Everybody, from the USA to the IMF, is praising Ms Yingluck for her actions to restore Thaiand good name on the international scene. So the only way for Abhisit to stay on the headline is to stir up trouble. Our only luck is he is as incompoetent for that as to win election.

What infuriated and showed the claims made by the democrats and the pad were baseless was the absence of any specific allegation merely a general smear campaign

And the democrats refused/ ignored requests to provide any evidence for their claims other than the well worn claim about getting thaksin his money back and the ott claim that it was all a plot to remove the constitution with the king as head of state.

When you see the pad's current claim that it's all about handing sovereignty

To the US and western big business ignoring of course the work of ASEAN praised by the IMF and you see these loose cannon lackeys of the elite making ludicrous childish claims against this government.

In this atmosphere why should yingluk bother debating with abhisit.

If he was still pm Thailand would probably be at war with Cambodia now to steal the oil wealth in the sea for certain families.

I can send you several links of videos where the Red Shirt leaders were inciting hatred towards the two people you'd last expect to see a Thai person to hate and I'm not talking about Abhisit and Suthep. The Democrats have pointed it out in their Blue-sky channel and it's not propaganda when the Red Shirt leaders are the ones who spoke the words. One of the complainants even provided the video clips to the court in order to show motive that indeed, there's movement going on which suggests a certain group is pushing to topple the power. However, it wasn't clear enough evidence. An expert in law explained that "even if someone were to bring a gas tank to the front of your house and is ready to ignite it, it is still not enough evidence to show that he will actually ignite it". That's how strict they were towards the evidence. Now if you ask me, that's pretty dangerous and I'd rather take action instead of waiting around until my house blows up then react. It was the same situation here.

This war against the elite goes all the way to the top and it manifested in the form of Red-Shirts who were lead to believe that they were being impoverished. This hatred is constantly being spurred on by the Red Shirt leaders and if you were to watch or attend any of their rallies, you'll understand (as long as you can understand Thai). Two days ago, a lady who was identified as a participant in a group to topple the Institution on Facebook and a Red shirt, barged into the Multi-colored shirt's gathering in front of the Constitutional Court and kicked a very important portrait. That's something very RARE and to do so in front of so many people is unheard of! She got detained by police who were quickly to defend her and said that she was a crazy woman and she doesn't have to be responsible for her actions. First of all, she's not crazy because she can use Facebook and is proactive in the cyber world and secondly, policemen do not have the qualifications to deem someone mentally ill. There's double standards going on here and I wouldn't be surprised if the Justice Ministry pays her bail too.

The red shirts a very quick to say they want to get rid of the amart and yet they will never name them.

Tells you all you need to know

[tig28]

The question then becomes, can amendments of the current one be enough to whitewash wrongdoers? Will PT risk a referendum on a complete rewrite?

Possibly, and i doubt it. Of course they could always make it illegal to campaign against the changes. where would they ever get such an idea being lovers of democracy and all that?

Well Thai at Heart --

Perhaps from the actions of the Military Junta ---- as that is precisely what they did for their referendum of 2007 after they dissolved the so called 1997 "Peoples Constitution".

But --on the bright side -- it shall probably be done without placing 31 provinces under Martial Law.

[ThaiOats]

To follow up on the above debate, the democrats were not only wrong but criminal to start the whole legal action.

They know it was baseless and without merit and likely to start more trouble in the street but they went with it anyway. Why ? Because Abhisit is widely seen as spineless and out of touch with the country and his own party, so something has to be done to show that he was doing "something".

As some have already point out, the democrats have nothing much to propose to improve the lot of the Thai people, the current administration is doing a excellent job for that. Everybody, from the USA to the IMF, is praising Ms Yingluck for her actions to restore Thaiand good name on the international scene. So the only way for Abhisit to stay on the headline is to stir up trouble. Our only luck is he is as incompoetent for that as to win election.

What infuriated and showed the claims made by the democrats and the pad were baseless was the absence of any specific allegation merely a general smear campaign

And the democrats refused/ ignored requests to provide any evidence for their claims other than the well worn claim about getting thaksin his money back and the ott claim that it was all a plot to remove the constitution with the king as head of state.

When you see the pad's current claim that it's all about handing sovereignty

To the US and western big business ignoring of course the work of ASEAN praised by the IMF and you see these loose cannon lackeys of the elite making ludicrous childish claims against this government.

In this atmosphere why should yingluk bother debating with abhisit.

If he was still pm Thailand would probably be at war with Cambodia now to steal the oil wealth in the sea for certain families.

I can send you several links of videos where the Red Shirt leaders were inciting hatred towards the two people you'd last expect to see a Thai person to hate and I'm not talking about Abhisit and Suthep. The Democrats have pointed it out in their Blue-sky channel and it's not propaganda when the Red Shirt leaders are the ones who spoke the words. One of the complainants even provided the video clips to the court in order to show motive that indeed, there's movement going on which suggests a certain group is pushing to topple the power. However, it wasn't clear enough evidence. An expert in law explained that "even if someone were to bring a gas tank to the front of your house and is ready to ignite it, it is still not enough evidence to show that he will actually ignite it". That's how strict they were towards the evidence. Now if you ask me, that's pretty dangerous and I'd rather take action instead of waiting around until my house blows up then react. It was the same situation here.

This war against the elite goes all the way to the top and it manifested in the form of Red-Shirts who were lead to believe that they were being impoverished. This hatred is constantly being spurred on by the Red Shirt leaders and if you were to watch or attend any of their rallies, you'll understand (as long as you can understand Thai). Two days ago, a lady who was identified as a participant in a group to topple the Institution on Facebook and a Red shirt, barged into the Multi-colored shirt's gathering in front of the Constitutional Court and kicked a very important portrait. That's something very RARE and to do so in front of so many people is unheard of! She got detained by police who were quickly to defend her and said that she was a crazy woman and she doesn't have to be responsible for her actions. First of all, she's not crazy because she can use Facebook and is proactive in the cyber world and secondly, policemen do not have the qualifications to deem someone mentally ill. There's double standards going on here and I wouldn't be surprised if the Justice Ministry pays her bail too.

The red shirts a very quick to say they want to get rid of the amart and yet they will never name them.

Tells you all you need to know

Moruya, there have been instances where they directed their anger and hatred all the way up the ladder, qualifying for the term "treason". Natthawut accused a person who is the secretary of the wife of someone VERY IMPORTANT (who isn't in politics) with the initials J.J. of giving the orders to fire at the crowds during the 2010 riot and then Jatuporn later revealed the name. The problem is, these people aren't supposed to be involved in politics and they can't retaliate because doing so would be somewhat admitting to the Red Shirts accusations and in turn be used against them. Much more recently, with the PTP in power, the Red Shirts can show even more aggression towards THE ammart. The harmony which kept the Thai people together over 60 years has now been broken apart and with a certain biography published by Yale floating around, the timing couldn't be worse.

Edited July 15, 2012 by ThaiOats

[Skywalker69]

To follow up on the above debate, the democrats were not only wrong but criminal to start the whole legal action.

They know it was baseless and without merit and likely to start more trouble in the street but they went with it anyway. Why ? Because Abhisit is widely seen as spineless and out of touch with the country and his own party, so something has to be done to show that he was doing "something".

As some have already point out, the democrats have nothing much to propose to improve the lot of the Thai people, the current administration is doing a excellent job for that. Everybody, from the USA to the IMF, is praising Ms Yingluck for her actions to restore Thaiand good name on the international scene. So the only way for Abhisit to stay on the headline is to stir up trouble. Our only luck is he is as incompoetent for that as to win election.

What infuriated and showed the claims made by the democrats and the pad were baseless was the absence of any specific allegation merely a general smear campaign

And the democrats refused/ ignored requests to provide any evidence for their claims other than the well worn claim about getting thaksin his money back and the ott claim that it was all a plot to remove the constitution with the king as head of state.

When you see the pad's current claim that it's all about handing sovereignty

To the US and western big business ignoring of course the work of ASEAN praised by the IMF and you see these loose cannon lackeys of the elite making ludicrous childish claims against this government.

In this atmosphere why should yingluk bother debating with abhisit.

If he was still pm Thailand would probably be at war with Cambodia now to steal the oil wealth in the sea for certain families.

When did Yingluck ever bother debating with Abisit?

And you can't blame her considering it would only have taken a single figure percentage vote swing for the Dems to have beaten PT.at the last election.

She is not bright enough for a political debate.

[Moruya]

Moruya, there have been instances where they directed their anger and hatred all the way up the ladder, qualifying for the term "treason". Natthawut accused a person who is the secretary of the wife of someone VERY IMPORTANT (who isn't in politics) with the initials J.J. of giving the orders to fire at the crowds during the 2010 riot and then Jatuporn later revealed the name. The problem is, these people aren't supposed to be involved in politics and they can't retaliate because doing so would be somewhat admitting to the Red Shirts accusations and in turn be used against them. Much more recently, with the PTP in power, the Red Shirts can show even more aggression towards THE ammart. The harmony which kept the Thai people together over 60 years has now been broken apart and with a certain biography published by Yale floating around, the timing couldn't be worse.

The problem for a lot of us that wait on the periphery of truth is that we no wait for truth and not some polluted variant of it.

It's a tough place to reside, hoping for reality, but we wait.

I'm happy to see and accept the truth if and when it arrives.

[Thai at Heart]

Moruya, there have been instances where they directed their anger and hatred all the way up the ladder, qualifying for the term "treason". Natthawut accused a person who is the secretary of the wife of someone VERY IMPORTANT (who isn't in politics) with the initials J.J. of giving the orders to fire at the crowds during the 2010 riot and then Jatuporn later revealed the name. The problem is, these people aren't supposed to be involved in politics and they can't retaliate because doing so would be somewhat admitting to the Red Shirts accusations and in turn be used against them. Much more recently, with the PTP in power, the Red Shirts can show even more aggression towards THE ammart. The harmony which kept the Thai people together over 60 years has now been broken apart and with a certain biography published by Yale floating around, the timing couldn't be worse.

The problem for a lot of us that wait on the periphery of truth is that we no wait for truth and not some polluted variant of it.

It's a tough place to reside, hoping for reality, but we wait.

I'm happy to see and accept the truth if and when it arrives.

There us no absolute truth, just bits and varieties of grey. There is probably only one man in all if this mess who genuinely has selfishly done his best for the country.

All the rest have a personal agenda.

[tig28]

incorrect post