Really Awkward Problem After Giving A Gift To A Thai Person

[IAMSOBAD]

Win win always becomes lose lose when dealing with gifts...and Thais.

It is a strange phenomenon.

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[nottocus]

Tell them that if they didn't like your gift, then they should turn it sideways and stick it up their backside.

Unappreciative Cnuts.

[Dante99]

You do not tip an owner. It would be wrong in most cultures. Imagine being a guy collecting 2 million baht a month in rents and some twit you did a kindness for offers you 1000 baht. <deleted>. he ain't a taxi driver and does not care to be treated like one

[Berkshire]

So the OP still hasn't gone to the source, i.e., gotten a Thai person to speak with the receptionist? <deleted>? I thought he was looking for answers, rather than random speculation from a bunch of strangers who weren't even there. A troll thread, afterall...

[Nigel1500]

Get a life, don't have a cow man. You could take my answer in a positive way. But you didn't. Good luck

Pull your head in, goose-boy. Why does it serve him right? He was simply returning a kindness in the way he knew how.

[gark]

I always tip the waiters at the restaurants I go to regularly, usually 40 to 60 baht. We get better service and we even get more food for the money. Can't lose by making everybody happy.

[kerrysum]

Money would go farther..... Some like sweets, but depends on their situation... It never hurts to talk... Sometimes a tip goes a lot farther than a box of candies.... Tips were also years ago were considered an insult...... It just depends on the person, and where they are from..... And please remember it goes both ways...... But if you accept a gift, from them, accept it with honor.... In some regions honor is revered, that's all..... They are no different than us..... They can hate you in a minute, and love you more when they understand......kilosierra

[nahkit]

Could there be some language confusion here?

When the lady quoted the price of 350 baht to take the four persons to the airport, did she mean 350 per person or for the whole group?

When the GFs mother gave the driver 1000 baht as a tip, did you include the original 350 baht in with this tip or was the 350 baht exclusive on top of the 1000 baht?

Did the girlfriend’s family stay for any amount of time in your apartment and would there be any additional rent expected for this?

Whatever, something does not seem right here and it appears that the nice little lady on reception feels she has been taken advantage of and there must be a lot more to this story than is being expressed by the OP.

how do you manage to say the same thing with every post?

I was going to ask if he had that last part on a template.

[brianP]

My opinion is that they somehow took a special liking to you and your GF. They wanted to treat you as family and start a special bond that blossoms into strong ties. The fact that you were honoring your own parents and an opportunity to create this distinction and the fact they reduced the rate from the beginning was a hint money was not at the core of things. They saw you struggling to secure a taxi and used their own personal vehicle. You mis-read this hand understandably. and i think to forgive and start over is a way to deal with it.

Of course another scenario is that they are just <deleted>! And move the %#$ away quick,DANGER AHEAD!!!!

OH Yes, the eyes, always check the eyes of people no matter what country, they will not deceive you if you are vigilant...

Edited July 22, 2012 by brianP

[sausageandmash]

No it does NOT serve him right. He was gracious enough to offer her a gift and she was ungrateful enough to refuse it.

When will Thais learn that customers come first and are not in the slightest bit interested in the petty aspects of their culture.

If I was the receptionist's boss, I would have given her a written warning for disrespecting a customer.

Those gifts can very well be taken as a big insult, indeed. Mai pen rai. You get the gifts back insulted and so are insulted back.

Serves you right. Deal with it.

[sausageandmash]

What you are saying only applies to Thais. This status crap IN NO WAY applies to Western holiday makers and even if, God forbid it did, then the holiday makers are of a higher status than the owner, mainly because they are customers.

The point everyone is missing on this thread is that he is the customer and the customer comes first.

He should be complaining to the owner, not even worrying about whether he has caused offense.

Sounds more like bunkum (complete nonsense), rather than bunkhun.

The owner should be apologising to these holiday makers, begging them not to tell anyone about this embarrassing incident.

For the owner and receptionist they probably saw their actions as "nam jai" (=genuine act of kindness or help, without anything expected in return). Giving money for such an act, particularly when repeatedly refused may sort of "cheapen it".

For the owner of the building there might well be the value of "bunkhun" in play, as well as seniority. The owner does a favour, and this "bunkhun" should create a feeling of gratitude or indebtedness in the one on the receiving end. In addition bunkhun is between people of different status levels, where the higher person behaves in a kind way to those lower than them. Status-wise the building owner is higher than you, probably older, more money as they own the building. A master or richer person tips a servant with money, not the other way round. Insisting on giving money, might have been looked at as insisting on a higher position in society, when you should simply have been acknowledging the kindness of someone higher. I guess flipping it round in western terms it might have come across as "patronising" is the nearest equivalent I can think of. To an owner of several buildings, who is probably wealthy THB 1,000 is probably not much and may leave them wondering who do you think I am?. In the same way, you wouldn't give a dollar tip say to a multi-millionaire, a lord/lady, or someone else viewed as "higher" in society in the west who say gave you a lift - not a great analogy though.

As for the chocolates. You should present to the owner in person, not thru the receptionist. It's also possible that she was on the receiving end of the owners reaction to your family's actions, and she was on the receiving end of who do they think they are. You've unwittingly put her in an uncomfortable position.

I fully understand your family's intentions. It's the type of thing my parents would also do to be honest.

What to do differently. If someone refuses money, and you ask again and they refuse it, then leave it - respect their position. Money to someone higher than you in return for kindness is not the right way to show gratitude. That's what the higher person might do to the lower. A nicer touch would have been something personal or something from your home country at a later point in time.

The above are all just possibilities, and there could be any other number of reasons, Thai related or not.

Personally, what I would do, is in a day or so, have a word with the receptionist. Along the lines of, I'm sorry I think we may have put you in a difficult situation. Our customs are a bit different. Could you help me understand what we could have done better, and what a Thai person would have done. They might get embarassed, and feel a little uncomfortable, but they will understand you are saying sorry, and your customs are different. You may even build a friendship with someone you can ask these things.

Next time you see the owner, you might want to "wai" them. Lower person wais first showing you recognise their higher status. Thank them again for helping your family, and add that I hope you weren't offended by the mother-in-laws insistence, as she doesn't understand Thai customs. Throw in a few phrases around how your MIL kept saying that Thai people are so kind..... etc

Bottom line: They are the only ones who know how your actions were received and why. Showing humility and apologising will go a long way for barbaric foreigners. Besides they won't want you to feel uncomfortable so will likely quick want to make you feel better! We all make mistakes in different cultures, so as you're doing recognise you made one, and see if you can now use it to build bridges and relationships.

Edit: BTW 5 Ferrero Rocher is a bit of a cheap gift and nothing special - cost what say 100 baht. Now if the owner had already given the 1,000 baht to the receptionist to give back, do you think she would really want to pass on 100 baht chocolates?. She'd be uncomfortable and thinking what have I done to deserve this

[HerbalEd]

Those gifts can very well be taken as a big insult, indeed. Mai pen rai. You get the gifts back insulted and so are insulted back.

Serves you right. Deal with it.

Serves him right??? What a dick!

[byrne1916]

So many replies, and so many questions.... some of the questions asked are answered if you read my posts carefully.

I'll try answer the relevant ones, and clarify some points.

To give yous an update I'm looking at an apartment at 10am this morning, and if its as nice we're gone.

I have to pass these people every single day, and I don't want to deal with hassle like this, I've bigger and more important things in life to worry about.

Some points to clarify for yous -

I do know 110% that he is the building owner, he does alot of odd jobs to pass his time, so it wouldn't be anything new to see him drive people somewhere, I noticed he likes to busy himself alot.

With regards to the chocolates also, we bought the staff chocolates at xmas just gone, and they got us a card and chocolates back, so in our minds we knew chocolates went down well. Like I said, there was a limited selection at that time of night, but a monkey could see there was nothing but good intentions behind it and she seemed happy also.

Another thing, the GF's mother gave that tip on her own when we weren't there. She was never in Thailand before or even outside of the EU, so this is all new to her. We didn't expect her to give such a big tip or insist on giving it. We also bought 2 boxes of chocs for both of them as a thanks (we were in fact thanking them both equally)

Point to note also, she drives a modern car, so she's not poor...somebody suggested she was. Also I'm not writing her name, or the owners name here (somebody mentioned I didn't know their names, I obviously just don't want to make them famous with threads like this)

About 2 days ago we passed the girl and she had a big smile on her face!? No idea why, but she was happy as hell looking.

(If I took a guess, her boss let her off the hook)

Just after we seen her, Uhhh Oh here he comes.... The second I seen him I gave him a hello in Thai, and a big smile. He walked towards us and stopped, and just cut me the dirtiest look he could possible. I've spent a few years in the army dealing with bullies, and I knew straight off the bat he was simply trying to intimidate me (no translator needed), so all I did was grin at him and laugh.

The man will sooner get a punch in the face than have me beg him for forgiveness. If it were back home, there definitively would have been a punch up. We're all born equally into this world, and I stopped saluting higher ups a long time ago now.

I think we can chalk this one up to arrogance and a lack of intelligence. (Not all Thais are the same remember, so maybe this guy is one of those once offs)

My Lesson learned - Never tip a Thai person, avoid giving a gift to a Thai (The reward just isn't worth the risk)

Edited July 22, 2012 by byrne1916

[jackr]

Tell them that if they didn't like your gift, then they should turn it sideways and stick it up their backside.

Unappreciative Cnuts.

Best answer

he ain't a taxi driver and does not care to be treated like one.

So why did he charge them then, Sherlock?

-

Just move out, op, the guy is all over himself and a prick in any culture. When you do, be sure to leave an envelope with receptionist addressed to the owner with an old 20 baht note in there. As to your last comment, I'd even be inclined to stretch it to keep em at arm's length at all times and life here will go a lot smoother.

[deesquared]

Wow! So many cultural violations in this story I can't even count them!! Thankfully the Thai people are patient with us farangs.

[Berkshire]

My Lesson learned - Never tip a Thai person, avoid giving a gift to a Thai (The reward just isn't worth the risk)

So basically, you haven't learned anything.

[maxme]

My Lesson learned - Never tip a Thai person, avoid giving a gift to a Thai (The reward just isn't worth the risk)

So basically, you haven't learned anything.

Some just don't want to understand.

[Thailion]

Unfortunately you all have missed the point in all of this!!!

Is the receptionist HOT??

If so I will deal with her and try to figure out what went wrong....if not...the rest of the guys on here can sort it!

[Berkshire]

My Lesson learned - Never tip a Thai person, avoid giving a gift to a Thai (The reward just isn't worth the risk)

So basically, you haven't learned anything.

Some just don't want to understand.

Clearly.

[OxfordWill]

Anyone saying the gifts could be taken as an insult are talking out of their behinds. While that may be true of OTHER cultures, it is not going to be the situation here for you and the specifics involved.

However it is possible that you have made the lady "shy" by being too generous- the original money (1000 baht up from 350 baht) regardless of the 90 minutes extra to find the place, is akin in the west to paying a taxi driver 100$ for an agreed $15 ride just because he helped you inside the hotel with your luggage.

It's also possible that by saying "you are not satisfied with me" she used a dictionary and mis-translated her intentions, namely that she wanted to say the 1000 baht was already too much.

The underlying Thai custom I suspect to be at work here is a very strong feeling called "greng jai"- it is sort of like "gratitude mixed with indebtedness". You get "greng jai points" for having certain social standings vs others, and by being a guest of that lady+boss' place, you are already on quite a high "greng jai score" with them. What this equates to is that they feel they should do things for YOU, not the other way around. By being so generous you upset this balance, causing them to feel overwhelmed with impotence and the inability to right the situation.

Thats my guess, given the facts provided.

[fletchsmile]

Interesting thread.

My landlord's mother (via another family member that speaks English), often gives me small gifts.

Recently, she gave me the most delicious 'biscuits' and, asking where I could buy them (from the English speaking family member), was told they were home-made.

I've been racking my brains trying to think of a suitable gift for the mother to reciprocate, and was thinking of a small box of Belgian chocs, but am now terrified that she will find this offensive!

Something from your own country or from Europe/ overseas that can't be easily obtained in Thailand is usually well received. So Belgian chocs would probably go down nicely.

I thought of this thread the other day when in 7-11. I saw some Ferrero Rocher and smiled.

BTW They were 76 baht for 5 in 7-11. They are very common in Thailand, so not really anything special. In fact I'd say the image of them is higher in the UK as they're marketed as a bit of a luxury and indulging yourself. Belgian chocs from Europe that you bring back for the old girl sounds nice to me - particularly if they're in some sort of original wrapping or bag from over there.

[fletchsmile]

Anyone saying the gifts could be taken as an insult are talking out of their behinds. While that may be true of OTHER cultures, it is not going to be the situation here for you and the specifics involved.

However it is possible that you have made the lady "shy" by being too generous- the original money (1000 baht up from 350 baht) regardless of the 90 minutes extra to find the place, is akin in the west to paying a taxi driver 100$ for an agreed $15 ride just because he helped you inside the hotel with your luggage.

It's also possible that by saying "you are not satisfied with me" she used a dictionary and mis-translated her intentions, namely that she wanted to say the 1000 baht was already too much.

The underlying Thai custom I suspect to be at work here is a very strong feeling called "greng jai"- it is sort of like "gratitude mixed with indebtedness". You get "greng jai points" for having certain social standings vs others, and by being a guest of that lady+boss' place, you are already on quite a high "greng jai score" with them. What this equates to is that they feel they should do things for YOU, not the other way around. By being so generous you upset this balance, causing them to feel overwhelmed with impotence and the inability to right the situation.

Thats my guess, given the facts provided.

Will,

Isn't "greng jai" more of an attitude of deference, where you restrain your own interests or wishes /thoughts in deference of someone else's interests needs/ thoughts. Also reluctance to disturb people? Usually lower to higher person

In the work place I used to find "greng jai" was one of the biggest obstacles to getting things done, and used to spend a lot of effort to develop an environment where people wouldn't "greng jai" me, as often by deferring to what you think the boss might want or think just gets in the way of what actually needs doing. eg won't express an opinion in case it conflicts with yours; won't disturb you if you look busy even if something is actually critical and you would rather be disturbed if you knew etc

[fletchsmile]

So many replies, and so many questions.... some of the questions asked are answered if you read my posts carefully.

I'll try answer the relevant ones, and clarify some points.

To give yous an update I'm looking at an apartment at 10am this morning, and if its as nice we're gone.

I have to pass these people every single day, and I don't want to deal with hassle like this, I've bigger and more important things in life to worry about.

Some points to clarify for yous -

I do know 110% that he is the building owner, he does alot of odd jobs to pass his time, so it wouldn't be anything new to see him drive people somewhere, I noticed he likes to busy himself alot.

With regards to the chocolates also, we bought the staff chocolates at xmas just gone, and they got us a card and chocolates back, so in our minds we knew chocolates went down well. Like I said, there was a limited selection at that time of night, but a monkey could see there was nothing but good intentions behind it and she seemed happy also.

Another thing, the GF's mother gave that tip on her own when we weren't there. She was never in Thailand before or even outside of the EU, so this is all new to her. We didn't expect her to give such a big tip or insist on giving it. We also bought 2 boxes of chocs for both of them as a thanks (we were in fact thanking them both equally)

Point to note also, she drives a modern car, so she's not poor...somebody suggested she was. Also I'm not writing her name, or the owners name here (somebody mentioned I didn't know their names, I obviously just don't want to make them famous with threads like this)

About 2 days ago we passed the girl and she had a big smile on her face!? No idea why, but she was happy as hell looking.

(If I took a guess, her boss let her off the hook)

Just after we seen her, Uhhh Oh here he comes.... The second I seen him I gave him a hello in Thai, and a big smile. He walked towards us and stopped, and just cut me the dirtiest look he could possible. I've spent a few years in the army dealing with bullies, and I knew straight off the bat he was simply trying to intimidate me (no translator needed), so all I did was grin at him and laugh.

The man will sooner get a punch in the face than have me beg him for forgiveness. If it were back home, there definitively would have been a punch up. We're all born equally into this world, and I stopped saluting higher ups a long time ago now.

I think we can chalk this one up to arrogance and a lack of intelligence. (Not all Thais are the same remember, so maybe this guy is one of those once offs)

My Lesson learned - Never tip a Thai person, avoid giving a gift to a Thai (The reward just isn't worth the risk)

Bit surprised you feel it's something you need to move out over. We all make these "mistakes" and this didn't seem very serious to me. Depending on how you look it at you could say they are the ones that made a "mistake" as looking at intentions rather than actions is more important. The reason could be cultural (I think there was a cultural element) but as above, there could be a whole host of reasons, and at the end of the day they're just differences.

reminds me of a few of my own:

One of the most embarassing mistakes I made early on, was at my first employer. One of the girls in the department was leaving the company and we were having a small leaving do for her. When it came to goodbyes I didn't really think and just gave her a bit of a hug in the way you'd probably do with a friend who was going away. The girl went bright red, and I'm sure she would have rather died on the spot if she could, and really didn't know where to hide. I blush easily as well so went bright red with embarassment as soon as I realised I'd embarassed her and done something I shouldn't, probably coming across as some sort of pervert in the process - I would have taken any place to hide. I had read of the lack of displays of public affection but just it was something that came naturally.

Didn't take long though for people to help the embarassment die down and try and put us at ease. Then followed by laughs and jokes. I remember the head of department saying that everyone will be wanting to leave now. I was a newbie guy around 30 years at the time in a department of 16 ladies!

Another one a couple of years later I was asking a girl in an interview did she have any brothers or sisters - just as chat to put her at ease and a question a lot of Thais ask even at interviews. She said something like 8 and she was the youngest. I said something like "oh, you must have been spoilt then growing up" jokingly with a smile. Her answer: "no, I'm not spoilt I'm a good girl". Unfortunately her understanding of English was good enough to know that spoilt meant "soiled" or "damaged goods", but not good enough to realise the other meaning of lavishing attention. To make matters worse spoiled can often be translated as "sia", and I knew that. Sia is also used with things like "sia borisut" lose one's virginity, so there were probably all sorts of things going thru her head, especially as she had such of a look of indignation on her face when she said "no, I'm not spoilt I'm a good girl".

[Scully]

It was me that first said he wanted 350 baht each. It was meant as a light hearted joke hence the smiley face. I didn't think people would take it seriously as it was complete nonsense. Sorry

[Jiu-Jitsu]

Sheesh...has he not simply asked the receptionist what went wrong and why the man is angry? How long does it take?

[BuffaloRescue]

YOU CANT WIN

HAHAHAHA

[Berkshire]

Sheesh...has he not simply asked the receptionist what went wrong and why the man is angry? How long does it take?

Exactly. Several posters recommended just that, albeit with a Thai person who can actually understand the explanation. Appears the OP is not interested in finding out the truth, but just wants to stir angst.

[F1fanatic]

Interesting thread.

My landlord's mother (via another family member that speaks English), often gives me small gifts.

Recently, she gave me the most delicious 'biscuits' and, asking where I could buy them (from the English speaking family member), was told they were home-made.

I've been racking my brains trying to think of a suitable gift for the mother to reciprocate, and was thinking of a small box of Belgian chocs, but am now terrified that she will find this offensive!

Something from your own country or from Europe/ overseas that can't be easily obtained in Thailand is usually well received. So Belgian chocs would probably go down nicely.

I thought of this thread the other day when in 7-11. I saw some Ferrero Rocher and smiled.

BTW They were 76 baht for 5 in 7-11. They are very common in Thailand, so not really anything special. In fact I'd say the image of them is higher in the UK as they're marketed as a bit of a luxury and indulging yourself. Belgian chocs from Europe that you bring back for the old girl sounds nice to me - particularly if they're in some sort of original wrapping or bag from over there.

Thank you - I'll give the Belgian chocs a try as I think it is just rude to enjoy the little pressies, whilst giving nothing in return.

Unfortunately, I live here so cannot present them in a European bag, but (hopefully) a small box will be appreciated whilst not implying that I think I'm of a higher class!

[Jiu-Jitsu]

My Thai friends gave me gifts before I gave any and now it has become an embarrassment, with them embarrassing me with increasingly thoughful gifts. Lovely people. We will continue to embarrass each other as much as we can.

[OxfordWill]

Anyone saying the gifts could be taken as an insult are talking out of their behinds. While that may be true of OTHER cultures, it is not going to be the situation here for you and the specifics involved.

However it is possible that you have made the lady "shy" by being too generous- the original money (1000 baht up from 350 baht) regardless of the 90 minutes extra to find the place, is akin in the west to paying a taxi driver 100$ for an agreed $15 ride just because he helped you inside the hotel with your luggage.

It's also possible that by saying "you are not satisfied with me" she used a dictionary and mis-translated her intentions, namely that she wanted to say the 1000 baht was already too much.

The underlying Thai custom I suspect to be at work here is a very strong feeling called "greng jai"- it is sort of like "gratitude mixed with indebtedness". You get "greng jai points" for having certain social standings vs others, and by being a guest of that lady+boss' place, you are already on quite a high "greng jai score" with them. What this equates to is that they feel they should do things for YOU, not the other way around. By being so generous you upset this balance, causing them to feel overwhelmed with impotence and the inability to right the situation.

Thats my guess, given the facts provided.

Will,

Isn't "greng jai" more of an attitude of deference, where you restrain your own interests or wishes /thoughts in deference of someone else's interests needs/ thoughts. Also reluctance to disturb people? Usually lower to higher person

In the work place I used to find "greng jai" was one of the biggest obstacles to getting things done, and used to spend a lot of effort to develop an environment where people wouldn't "greng jai" me, as often by deferring to what you think the boss might want or think just gets in the way of what actually needs doing. eg won't express an opinion in case it conflicts with yours; won't disturb you if you look busy even if something is actually critical and you would rather be disturbed if you knew etc

Yes, you are greng jai your boss simply because he is "above" you socially. However, one cannot hope to eliminate greng jai from the work place. It is actually one of two very useful motivational tools (the other being "face") and crucial to the productivity of any Thai operation.

Regarding your interview question with the young lady with many older siblings- in Thailand, the youngest daughter is often the least spoilt (and burdened with the most familial responsibility). It's almost an exact 180 on western ideas on the subject. A very unlucky choice of word nonetheless!!