Backpackers Are Great Asset For Chiang Mai

[Mapguy]

I am all for backpackers who shower and wear enough clothing to be reasonably modest. That is, enough clothing to be suitable for more than for swimming.

Some backpackers absolutely reek of body odor! That is definitely not cool in SE Asia.

Skimpy dress is really not respectful of local custom. It is difficult to comment on current fashions among young Thai women, but at least most wear shorts under their short skirts and don't run around hanging out of their bras, not that they have a lot to hang out. Aesthetically, these local lovelies are much more attractive than too many flabby, over-endowed backpackers flapping around the town.

Have some no shame as well as no personal hygiene?!

[elektrified]

I wish Thailand could put out a "welcome to Thailand" Pamphlet for hotels/hostels/airports/etc and address these problems, because when I end up talking to some tourists about things, like dress, most react well, never knew it was wrong (really though?) and even make an effort to reverse what they were doing.

Actually, such a pamphlet does exist. It has for many years.

[cmbe]

All the ones I have seen in Thailand are dirty, smelly and look like they are high on something or just coming off it. They also like to talk about how little they have spent everyday.

On a recent trip to Bangkok I met 2 guys on the train that were backpackers. They were Swedes and worked as engineers for Volvo. I have one of their business cards here. They stayed in a 150 THB room in BKK. I didn't know such a place existed. They wanted to see Thailand in a way they would not see otherwise. They were very nice guys, very intelligent, clean and polite.

+1

I met also many backpackers who very polite, clean, very friendly, intelligent, nature lover, meditation lover,...even some of them have strength character but it is ok, that is the way of their life. IMO backpacker or frontpacker(many book banks inside) is same, just look only inside (idea, mind, hart, etc.), that is all.

[BlackArtemis]

I wish Thailand could put out a "welcome to Thailand" Pamphlet for hotels/hostels/airports/etc and address these problems, because when I end up talking to some tourists about things, like dress, most react well, never knew it was wrong (really though?) and even make an effort to reverse what they were doing.

Actually, such a pamphlet does exist. It has for many years.

Never saw one, seen a few posters at a handful of temples.

When i came to study here my Profs gave us a huge packet on culture, what to do and what not to do etc. We arrived having a bit more than the basics down.

[hellodolly]

Well for a back packer if they have a Lonley Planet guide book it will give you some of the dos and donts.

[CNXBKKMAN]

I think if you book an air asia flight, travel on the train and buy the ticket at the counter. Find a hotel or bungalow when you arrive. Move on when you are ready. Like to eat local food at the night market. Travel on the bus or by songtaow. If you travel like this you are a "backpacker" .

This is what backpackers do.

[PoodMaiDai]

Did someone actually complain about women not wearing a bra?

[femi fan]

youre avoiding the subject...

ive been to those places multiple times over the span of the past 10 years and theyre now all ruined. ko tao can be added to the mix as well. didnt go as a backpacker. was living in thailand every time i visited.

if a place targets backpackers, it has a short shelf life.

You've got this so wrong. I saw your other post blaming other places being ruined by backpackers.

Places don't target backpackers. Backpackers find places through their adventurous noses. Naturally enough they find beautiful places and then bring some money to the local economy.

Then word gets about and the tourist infrastructure moves in, buying out locals, building up their cement hotels and bringing in the rest of it. Now big business gets the big bucks, and the area gets ruined.

Ko Tao? Ruined since speedboats came onto the picture, ferrying five star holidaymakers over for the day to do some snorkelling. NOT ruined by backpackers.

Pai? Ruined since it was featured in a thai movie and on a thai soap opera. Bangkok thais came up to have a look, and a new infrastructure was rapidly built up to accommodate them. NOT ruined by backpackers.

Ko Phangan. Like samui before it, slowly getting ruined by the tourist infrastructure being built up on it, along with timeshare accommodation and all the rest of it. NOT ruined by backpackers.

You just could not be so wrong about backpackers. Now, i've seen plenty of young europeans and other farangs behaving pretty poorly here in chiang mai and down on the islands but if you look carefully they have suitcases and are here for a two week booze binge holiday. They are NOT backpackers.

Having said all that, clearly any grouping of people will have some amongst them that give them a bad name. But for them all to be given a bad name based on the actions of a few reflects far more on the people making such hideous generalisations.

You probably wouldn't even be here now if it wasn't for backpackers. They find the places and live locally with locals. Unfortunately big business comes along and trashes the place for the tourism industry.

[TommoPhysicist]

Did someone actually complain about women not wearing a bra?

Have you seen some of these women?

[femi fan]

A nerve? Buddy, I'm laughing as I read your posts.

Have you been to pai or vang vieng recently? What did u think of the marvelous culture there?

Btw, good edit. Thought the "thank you" came off as a little weak as well.

Your posts are making you look like you're the kind of person that ruins all the places you say have been ruined. The backpackers i meet have far more politeness and respect than what you offer on this thread.

All the bad stuff you say about backpackers says far more about yourself really. You keep saying these places have been ruined, and now you've added 'sex tourits' to the list, along with some other groupings you're writing off.

I go to pai all the time and have seen it change over the last ten years or so. But how and why it's changed seem to have passed you by.

And you see the thing about chiang mai is that about 20-30 years ago it was a far smaller place, with thousands more trees and much less concrete than today. Why, you're probably living in an old forest. Why do you think chiang mai has changed like this? Backpackers?

Such ignorance.

[femi fan]

Another friend who used to backpack a lot in Thailand back in the 80's, recently went back to one of the first places she visited; which happened to be the place where she planned out a business she started, which has done quite well.

It was a beachfront hut/guesthouse on Koh Phangan which cost something like 100 Bt/night

When arriving in the exact location she discovered it had been replaced by a hotel costing around 10,000 Bt/night

Probably had yao beach.

Yes, phangan is slowly going the samui way, but is years behind thankfully.

I just went to phangan and stayed in my beachside bungalow facing the west for nightly sunsets. I was there for one month through the whole of june. My bungalow, hired motorbike, all my meals, a couple of beers most nights, and other things needed for the month cost me the grand sum of 30,000 baht. The bungalow, nice and big and spartan with a nice verandah was simply 300 baht a night.

This was the phangan i knew back in 1990 and it was a joy to be able to find it still. The village was all locally run, no 4 or 5 star nonsense, no big business, all nice and chilled and slow and just... backpackerish. Backpackers staying a long time and cheaply, but all the money going to locals. The locals and backpackers get on with their lives with total positivity. This is life at its best. A few young westerners came along a couple of nights before the full moon party with their suitcases and selfishness, but soon realised they'd got the wrong beach and left.

Backpackers get on with locals, and it's a great relationship that all benefit from.

[jollyrog]

Uptheos.......your best post this year and I would like to chime in with my experience as a backpacker. It broadened my life experiences tremendously.

Twenty two years ago approaching the age of 50 while whiling my life away as a beach bum windsurfer on Maui my best friend, a radio DJ the same age as me talked me into going backpacking through Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and India with the ultimate destination being the Rajneesh Commune in Poona. He lived hand to mouth due to his addictions so set his daily budget at $10 a day and I not having a money problem set my limit at $15,000 for 6 months. Since my friend had little money we decided to go 'on the cheap' and acquired Lonely Planet books for each country. The books were a lifesaver on many occasions.

We stayed in $2 a nite guest houses; traveled by plane, train, buses, vans, motorcycles and hitchhiking. After two months on the road we arrived in Bali and treated ourselves to a cheap hotel with a swimming pool. My friend ran out of money and headed back to Hawaii and I, now addicted to backpacking continued on to India.

Arriving in Poona I meditated to the point of no mind; bought an Indian Enfield motorcycle and set out to see the real South India. 3 months and 6000 kilometers later I returned to Poona, sold the motorcycle, went to the Oberoi (sp) Hotel in Bombay for 5 days to decompress and eat lobster.

Many many stories however in the essence of time and space I will say most of the people I met were from Germany and Switzerland. Real adventure seeking backpackers.

Upon returning to Maui I found the entire trip of 6 months had only cost me $5000 so I spent the remaining $10,000 on a new Harley and became a RUB for the next twenty years. Life is a trip for those who seek it.

Jolly Roger

[Ulysses G.]

This was the phangan i knew back in 1990 and it was a joy to be able to find it still.

I hope that they have electricity now for more than a few hours. I could not hack it with no fan at night back in 1990, so moved on very quickly.

[hellodolly]

youre avoiding the subject...

ive been to those places multiple times over the span of the past 10 years and theyre now all ruined. ko tao can be added to the mix as well. didnt go as a backpacker. was living in thailand every time i visited.

if a place targets backpackers, it has a short shelf life.

You've got this so wrong. I saw your other post blaming other places being ruined by backpackers.

Places don't target backpackers. Backpackers find places through their adventurous noses. Naturally enough they find beautiful places and then bring some money to the local economy.

Then word gets about and the tourist infrastructure moves in, buying out locals, building up their cement hotels and bringing in the rest of it. Now big business gets the big bucks, and the area gets ruined.

Ko Tao? Ruined since speedboats came onto the picture, ferrying five star holidaymakers over for the day to do some snorkelling. NOT ruined by backpackers.

Pai? Ruined since it was featured in a thai movie and on a thai soap opera. Bangkok thais came up to have a look, and a new infrastructure was rapidly built up to accommodate them. NOT ruined by backpackers.

Ko Phangan. Like samui before it, slowly getting ruined by the tourist infrastructure being built up on it, along with timeshare accommodation and all the rest of it. NOT ruined by backpackers.

You just could not be so wrong about backpackers. Now, i've seen plenty of young europeans and other farangs behaving pretty poorly here in chiang mai and down on the islands but if you look carefully they have suitcases and are here for a two week booze binge holiday. They are NOT backpackers.

Having said all that, clearly any grouping of people will have some amongst them that give them a bad name. But for them all to be given a bad name based on the actions of a few reflects far more on the people making such hideous generalisations.

You probably wouldn't even be here now if it wasn't for backpackers. They find the places and live locally with locals. Unfortunately big business comes along and trashes the place for the tourism industry.

Now that you mention it it does seem like most of the travelers have suitcases.

For the most part the back packers I see are couples. Strangely enough many of them will each have a back pack and the women a pack on her front also.

The name back packers is just that a name. I prefer (jealously) to call them adventurers.

[uptheos]

Uptheos.......your best post this year and I would like to chime in with my experience as a backpacker. It broadened my life experiences tremendously.

Twenty two years ago approaching the age of 50 while whiling my life away as a beach bum windsurfer on Maui my best friend, a radio DJ the same age as me talked me into going backpacking through Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and India with the ultimate destination being the Rajneesh Commune in Poona. He lived hand to mouth due to his addictions so set his daily budget at $10 a day and I not having a money problem set my limit at $15,000 for 6 months. Since my friend had little money we decided to go 'on the cheap' and acquired Lonely Planet books for each country. The books were a lifesaver on many occasions.

We stayed in $2 a nite guest houses; traveled by plane, train, buses, vans, motorcycles and hitchhiking. After two months on the road we arrived in Bali and treated ourselves to a cheap hotel with a swimming pool. My friend ran out of money and headed back to Hawaii and I, now addicted to backpacking continued on to India.

Arriving in Poona I meditated to the point of no mind; bought an Indian Enfield motorcycle and set out to see the real South India. 3 months and 6000 kilometers later I returned to Poona, sold the motorcycle, went to the Oberoi (sp) Hotel in Bombay for 5 days to decompress and eat lobster.

Many many stories however in the essence of time and space I will say most of the people I met were from Germany and Switzerland. Real adventure seeking backpackers.

Upon returning to Maui I found the entire trip of 6 months had only cost me $5000 so I spent the remaining $10,000 on a new Harley and became a RUB for the next twenty years. Life is a trip for those who seek it.

Jolly Roger

What a really great adventure, but it can't match boozing in a bar at Thapae Gate, criticizing backpackers.

[uptheos]

Showing up to a bar in your boarding shorts, Chang Beer Singlet, and flipflops is pretty bad, hilarious when you try it at places like Warm Up.

This sounds like a lot of older ex-pats I've seen, except they usually have an enormous stomach and an 18 year old Thai girl too.

Edited July 26, 2012 by uptheos

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Now that you mention it it does seem like most of the travelers have suitcases.

For the most part the back packers I see are couples. Strangely enough many of them will each have a back pack and the women a pack on her front also.

Yeah. It kind of makes you wonder why they are bringing so much crap to a tropical country. It's completely ridiculous sometimes when you see people carry a bag the size of a fridge around.

I often do some backpacker-type travel, but without an actual backpack of course; for 99% of the time you're actually moving stuff about in person you have pavement under your feet, so a carry-on sized wheely bag makes a lot more sense. Maybe bring a day-pack for actual hiking.

And I actually do it on trips where I'd be on business in a posh hotel a lot of the time, then when business is done I tag on a couple more days, check out and do things backpacker style.

(Though it's still rubbish of course that you can't connect with a country from a 4-5 star hotel; not sure who claimed that, but of course you can.)

Edited July 26, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[beb]

Wouldn't it be great if a bunch of backpackers were on here to defend themselves?

[uptheos]

Wouldn't it be great if a bunch of backpackers were on here to defend themselves?

I think a lot of ex and current backpackers might already have voiced an opinion.

When I visit my Lisu friends at Doi Lan, Wawee.......I take a backpack.

What is there to defend, they're too busy having a GREAT time than writing on here.

Do we have intelligent satnav backpackers yet as opposed to ignorant Lonely Planet people?

[uptheos]

Can't say that I've really noticed any sex-backpackers either.

This is usually left up to the smartly dressed, big bellied, non smelly and intelligent older farangs.

[cmsally]

I still backpack when I get the chance. Nothing more satisfying than seeing the wheelie suitcase brigade running out of a bit of tarmac or concrete! One of my favourite backpacking moments was coming back from Laos with an American friend of mine (about 10years ago or more). Had been stuck on a boat with him for the best part of a day and although I love him dearly he was being a right royal pain in the a_se. He was so happy to see land (he was getting boat fever) he jumped off the boat as soon as we came near land. Sank almost to his waist in mud. It was one of those moments you will never forget and you would have to meet him to appreciate just how funny this was (he is very theatrical). I must say though he took it in great spirits and thought it was highly funny. Even took a bow (as much as he could manage considering situation).

[insertmembernamehere]

The OP wrote:

The reality is that backpackers make a substantial contribution to Chiang Mai’s local tourism and probably spend more per capita than do five-star travelers, because they stay longer and don’t book into foreign-owned hotels.

The statement in bold is almost certainly false. I see no evidence for this nor does it strike me as intuitively plausible.

Besides this, I think there needs to be a redefinition of the term, "backpacker." Most backpackers you see nowadays are on a budget, but are not restricted to staying in the cheapest place in town, eating the cheapest foods and spending as little as possible on travel and souvenirs. There are far fewer "lower class backpackers" than ever before.

As far as any certain class of traveler being more "clueless" than others, all I can say is that nearly all travelers (unless they have been in a place repeatedly) are equally uninitiated. In fact, it is the independent traveler (thus the name) who usually gets something extra out of his trip because he, unlike the five-start crowd, is willing to discover new things on his own -- try new foods, walk down unknown streets, go to places tours never go, etc.

And for those of us who discovered the "outside" world many years ago as backpackers, why gainsay this new generation's thrill of it all?

[samsara]

You've got this so wrong. I saw your other post blaming other places being ruined by backpackers.

Places don't target backpackers. Backpackers find places through their adventurous noses. Naturally enough they find beautiful places and then bring some money to the local economy.

Then word gets about and the tourist infrastructure moves in, buying out locals, building up their cement hotels and bringing in the rest of it. Now big business gets the big bucks, and the area gets ruined.

Ko Tao? Ruined since speedboats came onto the picture, ferrying five star holidaymakers over for the day to do some snorkelling. NOT ruined by backpackers.

Pai? Ruined since it was featured in a thai movie and on a thai soap opera. Bangkok thais came up to have a look, and a new infrastructure was rapidly built up to accommodate them. NOT ruined by backpackers.

Ko Phangan. Like samui before it, slowly getting ruined by the tourist infrastructure being built up on it, along with timeshare accommodation and all the rest of it. NOT ruined by backpackers.

You just could not be so wrong about backpackers. Now, i've seen plenty of young europeans and other farangs behaving pretty poorly here in chiang mai and down on the islands but if you look carefully they have suitcases and are here for a two week booze binge holiday. They are NOT backpackers.

Having said all that, clearly any grouping of people will have some amongst them that give them a bad name. But for them all to be given a bad name based on the actions of a few reflects far more on the people making such hideous generalisations.

You probably wouldn't even be here now if it wasn't for backpackers. They find the places and live locally with locals. Unfortunately big business comes along and trashes the place for the tourism industry.

what are you talking about?

backpackers "discover" places? what? backpackers go on the backpackers' tour as suggested by the guidebooks. ill grant you that decades ago backpackers found chiang mai, found pai, etc because they found the access to drugs "cool,. but that era where true exploration took place is LONG GONE, my friend.

this is modern backpacking: http://www.straytravel.com/. its commercialized, packaged, and wrapped in a bow for yuppies and those looking to "find themselves" after uni. theres no exploration, no going off the beaten track. you follow the route already outlined by everyone else. you buy your t-shirts to wear back home to show off that you've been some place exotic.

is that everybody? no. but its the VAST, VAST majority of what you see out there. so what you get is a bunch of clueless sheep who go to lots of exotic places but have no idea what any of them are about beyond the kind of drugs they offer, what kind of parties they have, and how cheap they are.

maybe your backpackers are only those who carry a rucksack and dont shave? i dunno. but this zen-like backpacker you describe is far from being a substantial % of the 2000- backpacker population.

[cmsally]

Basically now you have more what they call "flashpackers". It is certainly true that more people now are following like sheep. But I think that is just a sign of the general human condition which has been conditioned to expect everything on demand and at a higher standard.

Your average backpacker now, freaks out if they can't get immediate connection to the internet, and if the bus is half an hour late.

Makes you wonder what they would do with no contact with home for a month or two and waiting for the bus for a couple of days!!

[uptheos]

You've got this so wrong. I saw your other post blaming other places being ruined by backpackers.

Places don't target backpackers. Backpackers find places through their adventurous noses. Naturally enough they find beautiful places and then bring some money to the local economy.

Then word gets about and the tourist infrastructure moves in, buying out locals, building up their cement hotels and bringing in the rest of it. Now big business gets the big bucks, and the area gets ruined.

Ko Tao? Ruined since speedboats came onto the picture, ferrying five star holidaymakers over for the day to do some snorkelling. NOT ruined by backpackers.

Pai? Ruined since it was featured in a thai movie and on a thai soap opera. Bangkok thais came up to have a look, and a new infrastructure was rapidly built up to accommodate them. NOT ruined by backpackers.

Ko Phangan. Like samui before it, slowly getting ruined by the tourist infrastructure being built up on it, along with timeshare accommodation and all the rest of it. NOT ruined by backpackers.

You just could not be so wrong about backpackers. Now, i've seen plenty of young europeans and other farangs behaving pretty poorly here in chiang mai and down on the islands but if you look carefully they have suitcases and are here for a two week booze binge holiday. They are NOT backpackers.

Having said all that, clearly any grouping of people will have some amongst them that give them a bad name. But for them all to be given a bad name based on the actions of a few reflects far more on the people making such hideous generalisations.

You probably wouldn't even be here now if it wasn't for backpackers. They find the places and live locally with locals. Unfortunately big business comes along and trashes the place for the tourism industry.

what are you talking about?

backpackers "discover" places? what? backpackers go on the backpackers' tour as suggested by the guidebooks. ill grant you that decades ago backpackers found chiang mai, found pai, etc because they found the access to drugs "cool,. but that era where true exploration took place is LONG GONE, my friend.

this is modern backpacking: http://www.straytravel.com/. its commercialized, packaged, and wrapped in a bow for yuppies and those looking to "find themselves" after uni. theres no exploration, no going off the beaten track. you follow the route already outlined by everyone else. you buy your t-shirts to wear back home to show off that you've been some place exotic.

is that everybody? no. but its the VAST, VAST majority of what you see out there. so what you get is a bunch of clueless sheep who go to lots of exotic places but have no idea what any of them are about beyond the kind of drugs they offer, what kind of parties they have, and how cheap they are.

maybe your backpackers are only those who carry a rucksack and dont shave? i dunno. but this zen-like backpacker you describe is far from being a substantial % of the 2000- backpacker population.

Even if everything you say is correct, they still spend money, harm no-one and thus benefit Chiang Mai and other places they travel to,

[femi fan]

Samsara

True exploration does not mean finding new places. It is much better thought of as exploring the world for one's own experiences, regardless of who's there or how many are there. Exploration is exploring the mind as much as anything else, and going places on a budget means gaining experiences to stimulate the mind.

I don't know how you can feel so certain about everything you say. I have already questioned your 'facts' about why places like pai, ko tao have become 'ruined'. You have seemingly a fixed idea of what a backpacker is in your head, and it perhaps reflects more on your perceptions than any reality.

You also are very against 'drugs', so i do hope you've tried them all so you know what you're talking about from experience.

Backpackers that i'm talking about do indeed travel around with a rucksack for very functional reasons. As for shaving, or not, so what either way?

I see two kinds of young people in thailand traveling around: those with rucksacks and those with suitcases they wheel around. I do my own generalising and call the first travelers and the latter tourists. I have my own problems with the 'tourists' due to most of them having a dstinct lack of respect for the space of other travelers and the locals.

[Ulysses G.]

what are you talking about?

backpackers "discover" places? what? backpackers go on the backpackers' tour as suggested by the guidebooks. ill grant you that decades ago backpackers found chiang mai, found pai, etc because they found the access to drugs "cool,. but that era where true exploration took place is LONG GONE, my friend.

I have nothing against backpackers, but I must agree. For at least the last few decades - and I suspect long before - the vast majority of them have been following the Lonely Planet tour like lemmings and doing little "exploring" on their own. I don't really blame them, but - in general - the idea of the adventuresome backpacker is simply a myth.

[femi fan]

Even if everything you say is correct, they still spend money, harm no-one and thus benefit Chiang Mai and other places they travel to,

This lies at the heart of it, indeed. It's a very good call. But you're perhaps wrong on one count: they do seem to harm others like samsara and those who seem so happy to disparage young people making efforts to get away from their upbringing to see some of the world. Of course, the backpackers aren't actually harming anyone consciously, but their mere presence seems to cause angst in some observers. Pity for those people who imbue themselves with negative energy while looking at the backpackers who are full of positive energy!

[samsara]

Samsara

True exploration does not mean finding new places. It is much better thought of as exploring the world for one's own experiences, regardless of who's there or how many are there. Exploration is exploring the mind as much as anything else, and going places on a budget means gaining experiences to stimulate the mind.

I don't know how you can feel so certain about everything you say. I have already questioned your 'facts' about why places like pai, ko tao have become 'ruined'. You have seemingly a fixed idea of what a backpacker is in your head, and it perhaps reflects more on your perceptions than any reality.

You also are very against 'drugs', so i do hope you've tried them all so you know what you're talking about from experience.

Backpackers that i'm talking about do indeed travel around with a rucksack for very functional reasons. As for shaving, or not, so what either way?

I see two kinds of young people in thailand traveling around: those with rucksacks and those with suitcases they wheel around. I do my own generalising and call the first travelers and the latter tourists. I have my own problems with the 'tourists' due to most of them having a dstinct lack of respect for the space of other travelers and the locals.

i like the rucksack people. they have a clue and generally respect the places they go.

the group im referring to is what you label as "tourists". maybe this is what cmsally calls "flashpackers", not sure. pai is full of them now. vang vieng is 100% directed at them. they are blind hedonists in search of wreckless, lawless "fun".

im hardly against drugs, and have tried a fair many. but some kinds of people dont understand what drugs are for. these tourists/flashpackers have no idea.

Edited July 26, 2012 by samsara

[uptheos]

im hardly against drugs, and have tried a fair many. but some kinds of people dont understand what drugs are for. these tourists/flashpackers have no idea.

Maybe you should run a workshop and enlighten them.

I'm beginning to think you might have tried one too many.