Increase In Rape Of Foreigners In Thailand

[astral]

Over the last few months there seem to have been a marked increase in the number or

reported rapes, particularly against tourist girls.

Could this be related to the Government's policy to shut down the sex trade in Thailand?

Previously men/boys would have found a prostitute.

Is that becoming too difficult so they prey on innocent tourists?

[backflip]

Where is the body of statistics that you are quoting from? As far as I know "seems" isn't a valid statistical tool. In what part of Thailand is there a shortage of prostitutes? In what study of psychology is it suggested that rape is considered an alternative for consensual sex? I've read that rape isn't about "sex" but "control". I guess that you know differently.

[GuestHouse]

Rape is directly related to attitudes towards women - There is no evidence that the availability of prostitutes reduces rapes, indeed, were you to examin the number of Thai rape victims you would realize that Rape is endemic in Thailand.

The difference you attribute to restrictions of night life in Thailand is actually one of perception. A Thai woman gets raped and there is nothing in the news (unless she or her attacker are famous or her attacker is a foreigner). A western woman gets raped and its all over the headlines.

If there is a cause in the number of western rape women being raped, it is either the increase in western women in Thailand and/or the attitudes of Thai men to western women.

We non of us are in Thailand long before a Thai asks us about western women and 'Free Sex'. Many Thai men, if not all, believe on some level that western women are 'loose' and 'put out' - Just as many men in the west believe that Thai women are all available for sex.

[blabbel]

Over the last few months there seem to have been a marked increase in the number or

reported rapes, particularly against tourist girls.

Could this be related to the Government's policy to shut down the sex trade in Thailand?

Previously men/boys would have found a prostitute.

Is that becoming too difficult so they prey on innocent tourists?

Should have posted this in the "Joke"-forum.

You aren't serious, are you?

[kat]

Rape is directly related to attitudes towards women - There is no evidence that the availability of prostitutes reduces rapes, indeed, were you to examin the number of Thai rape victims you would realize that Rape is endemic in Thailand.

The difference you attribute to restrictions of night life in Thailand is actually one of perception. A Thai woman gets raped and there is nothing in the news (unless she or her attacker are famous or her attacker is a foreigner). A western woman gets raped and its all over the headlines.

If there is a cause in the number of western rape women being raped, it is either the increase in western women in Thailand and/or the attitudes of Thai men to western women.

We non of us are in Thailand long before a Thai asks us about western women and 'Free Sex'. Many Thai men, if not all, believe on some level that western women are 'loose' and 'put out' - Just as many men in the west believe that Thai women are all available for sex.

Excellent, intelligent, and informed response; thanks GH. I'm too tired these days.

But, I'd like to add, that the attitude toward Western women is just a variation on their attitude toward women in general.

[gburns57au]

A number of years ago here in Dullsville Perth we had lingerie shows which were basically erotic shows and in some cases strip shows.....until a few guys said that they got so horny watching these that they had urges that caused them to go and rape a woman....the government then restricted these shows...did the amount of rape cases drop....No they have actually increased. Find another reason.....this one does not wash.

[opothai]

years and years ago i was dating a girl studying phsycology and human behavioural patterns this was about 1982 or so, any way i used to be her guinea pig sometimes and to this day i can remember one of the questions she asked,

Q do you think prostitution and pornography are a good thing,

A to wit my reply was yes no problem as long as it is controled i.e keep the the women regulated for std's, and violence etc, and pornography within reason no child porn and animal porn rape etc etc.

Q what effect do you think this has on society

A i think it is good that men that are either shy or have impairments have access to sex as in the 'normal' world they might find it hard and resort to illegal activities.

therefore cutting down on rapes and molestation.

perfectly reasonable answers so i thought, but here's the the out come of her research

these are not exact dates but done from memory as i have not got time to google

prostitution and pornography legalised in holland in the sixties

pornography legalised in america in the late 60's 68 i think

any way after these were legalised rapes incidences increased at alarming rates, why?

also another one

a study in america concerning attitudes to rape.

a university took 40+ students and split them into two groups

group 1 access to television and normal programming for one month but no material of a sexual nature.

group 2 access to pornographic material of which they must watch a certain amount each day

after one month taken to a real rape case and asked at university what the term of sentence should be

group 1 on average 30% higher than the judge awarded

group 2 between 25 and 35% lower than the judge ordered

pornography and promiscuaty does have a profound effect on human nature

Edited January 17, 2006 by opothai

[blabbel]

any way after these were legalised rapes incidences increased at alarming rates, why?

Have they? Any statistics or else to back up this assertion?

[opothai]

these are not exact dates but done from memory as i have not got time to google

read the post

and try to be a grown up and not a clever dicky like last time please, you will end up spoiling a decent thread for your own amusment in trying to wind me up.

[Tippaporn]

Just want to throw this out there. Has there been a trend towards an increase in the fear of being raped among women in the societies where these studies take place? IMHO I wouldn't put any stock in any study which ignores questions regarding the attitudes of the general populace regarding their fears on a given subject which is being studied.

Why? If you look at some of the changes taking place in the medical profession, for instance, there are many professionals within that industry who are beginning to see a relationship between the patient and his/her health, or their ability to have a profound effect on the heal/cure, or conversely, the deterioration of their condition, and their particular personal beliefs.

What's the relationship between the person's thoughts and what happens to them? Is that an odd question? The answer can vary between people, even within a given indivdual, and would especially be dependent on whether the experience is considered "good" or "bad."

In any case, I would aver that there is a definite relationship between the thinker and his experience. And if that is the case then people would have to revamp their current ideas considerably. Very considerably.

The reason I don't listen to the news and most adverts, for example, is because of the enormous negativity being promoted. IMHO fear of just about everything is being irrationally pronounced. Of course, we all know what sells, and fear sells extemely well, so again IMHO media and marketing will speciffically use an approach which they know will grab the attention of the (unthinking, unable to conclude for themselves, IMHO) public.

The question stands: what do your thoughts have to do with your experience? Anything or nothing or very little? My advice? Think carefully before blowing that question off.

[Scott]

It's important to remember that rape is not a sexual act, per se, it is an act of violence with the issue of power and control being dominant. Thailand is a good example of this. In places like Pattaya, it is virtually impossible for someone to be "deprived" of sex--especially someone who has enough money to have a motorcycle. This guy, like most rapists, was not seeking sex, he was seeking to exert power and control and violently violate the girl.

Numerous studies have been done on rapists, and the majority of them have had sexual relationships within 48 hours of committing the rape (many only a matter of hours before the rape).

Do keep in mind that I am not talking about statutory rape (where rape is because of the age of the victim), which varies from country to country and can get into a lot of legal complications (such as consent but with someone too young).

[GuestHouse]

prostitution and pornography legalised in holland in the sixties

pornography legalised in america in the late 60's 68 i think

any way after these were legalised rapes incidences increased at alarming rates, why?

Perhaps the most signicant issue in the rape statistics is the attitudes of the victims to their experience. Tippaporn is coming dangerously close to suggesting the victim's mindset determines their victimhood. I don't agree with that argument.

However, women in the west, and particularly America, have become far more aware of their rights and perhaps more importantly far more assertive in claiming their rights not to be victims. This results in a willingness to report rapes and that eventually appears as higher rape statistics. The truth is not more rapes, but more rapes reported.

Thai women have yet to assert themselves on this issue, until they do, they will remain silent victims and some will see that as evidence that there is a lower incident of rape in Thailand.

Sadly we know from experienc of every country that has adopted more womens rights that the incidence of rape is hidden until women gain confindence to report the crime and, importantly, support when they do report the crime.

Tragically this is also true of that other festerring sex crime, child abuse. The lid is still on the pot. When it eventually does fly off, and Thailand sees that these crimes have the same causes, the same perpetrators and the same victims as everywhere else that cared to look, there will be the same old outcry.... 'Shock horror, how could this happen here?'.

For now, point the finger else where, blame foreigners, blame the victims.

But at some time the reckonning has to be made. There is a causal link between a lack of woman's rights and rape and what a Catholic priest can do, so can a monk.

.

[Boo]

A very very good post GH

[cdnvic]

Aren't we just rehashing the contents of the other two threads currently running on this subject?

cv

[kat]

prostitution and pornography legalised in holland in the sixties

pornography legalised in america in the late 60's 68 i think

any way after these were legalised rapes incidences increased at alarming rates, why?

Perhaps the most signicant issue in the rape statistics is the attitudes of the victims to their experience. Tippaporn is coming dangerously close to suggesting the victim's mindset determines their victimhood. I don't agree with that argument.

However, women in the west, and particularly America, have become far more aware of their rights and perhaps more importantly far more assertive in claiming their rights not to be victims. This results in a willingness to report rapes and that eventually appears as higher rape statistics. The truth is not more rapes, but more rapes reported.

Thai women have yet to assert themselves on this issue, until they do, they will remain silent victims and some will see that as evidence that there is a lower incident of rape in Thailand.

Sadly we know from experienc of every country that has adopted more womens rights that the incidence of rape is hidden until women gain confindence to report the crime and, importantly, support when they do report the crime.

Tragically this is also true of that other festerring sex crime, child abuse. The lid is still on the pot. When it eventually does fly off, and Thailand sees that these crimes have the same causes, the same perpetrators and the same victims as everywhere else that cared to look, there will be the same old outcry.... 'Shock horror, how could this happen here?'.

For now, point the finger else where, blame foreigners, blame the victims.

But at some time the reckonning has to be made. There is a causal link between a lack of woman's rights and rape and what a Catholic priest can do, so can a monk.

.

Thanks for a great post, GH

[gburns57au]

It's important to remember that rape is not a sexual act, per se, it is an act of violence with the issue of power and control being dominant. Thailand is a good example of this. In places like Pattaya, it is virtually impossible for someone to be "deprived" of sex--especially someone who has enough money to have a motorcycle. This guy, like most rapists, was not seeking sex, he was seeking to exert power and control and violently violate the girl.

Numerous studies have been done on rapists, and the majority of them have had sexual relationships within 48 hours of committing the rape (many only a matter of hours before the rape).

Do keep in mind that I am not talking about statutory rape (where rape is because of the age of the victim), which varies from country to country and can get into a lot of legal complications (such as consent but with someone too young).

I keep hearing this word VIOLENT.......having attended many rape cases in court there usually is very little violence in the true sense of the word....

can you please define what you mean by violent???

[Boo]

forcing someone to have sex without their concent is IMO as a women, violent.

[kat]

forcing someone to have sex without their concent is IMO as a women, violent.

Thanks for such a clear-cut statement Boo.

However, I do believe that the nature of rape may change according to the place, culture, and values of the place. I think in the West we have all heard over and over again that rape is about violence and control, and that is largely true most of the time, but I also think it can be about stereotypical reasons like lack of control, arousal, extreme objectification, and the belief that they have the advantage and can get away with it. In the case of SEA, I belive that the latter point is very prominent and more widespread.

[Boo]

I would actually wonder gburns how you couldn't view any rape as violent? To be voilent doesn't need to involve hitting etc, a threat is violent if the victim beleives it.

Anyone who is able to force someone to have sex aginst their will must be expressing some kind of threat or power over their victim which can only be violent as the victim cannot prevent it. Even if the rapist was apologising whist doing it or thought there was some kind of romantic involvement in their own mind, for the victim, they are forcing sex on someone who doesn't want it. Which IMO is a form of violence.

[GuestHouse]

can you please define what you mean by violent???

I think that if someone forced their way into your body, you would regard that, in a very true sense of the word, as violent. I know I would.

[blabbel]

[ 'opothai' date=2006-01-17 19:57:33' post='614817]

these are not exact dates but done from memory as i have not got time to google

read the post

and try to be a grown up and not a clever dicky like last time please, you will end up spoiling a decent thread for your own amusment in trying to wind me up.

you mean you have nothing to back up your claims, except sources which you can't quote when challenged, once again?

I would actually wonder gburns how you couldn't view any rape as violent? To be voilent doesn't need to involve hitting etc, a threat is violent if the victim beleives it.

Yes, violence or at least severe intimidation are involved, otherwise it wouldn't be "rape".

And, imagining the scenario, which is all I can do, I don't think it's solely about being sexually aroused, but other psychological components play a decisive part, anger, resentment etc.

How would one feel after raping a woman- pretty crappy I would think, if one managed to keep aroused, unless some issues of asserting power and humiliating are involved.

The usual excuse of "she provoked me and asked for it" cannot be applied to the recent rape cases, coercion and violence are clearly in the foreground.

I do wonder, though, how one could conclude that there is an increase on the basis of 2 or 3 instances reported recently?

Edited January 17, 2006 by blabbel

[meom]

forcing someone to have sex without their concent is IMO as a women, violent.

Thanks for such a clear-cut statement Boo.

However, I do believe that the nature of rape may change according to the place, culture, and values of the place. I think in the West we have all heard over and over again that rape is about violence and control, and that is largely true most of the time, but I also think it can be about stereotypical reasons like lack of control, arousal, extreme objectification, and the belief that they have the advantage and can get away with it. In the case of SEA, I belive that the latter point is very prominent and more widespread.

The chinese have a saying that says "if rape is unavoidable at least try to enjoy it"

Maybe that's why people get away with it in SEA.

[opothai]

[ 'opothai' date=2006-01-17 19:57:33' post='614817]

these are not exact dates but done from memory as i have not got time to google

read the post

and try to be a grown up and not a clever dicky like last time please, you will end up spoiling a decent thread for your own amusment in trying to wind me up.

you mean you have nothing to back up your claims, except sources which you can't quote when challenged, once again?

why are you following me around on this forum.

if you feel the need to question every thing i say and i am confident in what i say, please do some research and prove me wrong, but do not waste my time and the forums space on childish quips and again winding me up, why? explain your self please.

most people are expressing and posting what they feel all i can see from your posts is quote's from other members and you pulling apart the majority of what they are posting and baiting people into confrontation, with your somewhat antagonising remarks, again why?

[kat]

forcing someone to have sex without their concent is IMO as a women, violent.

Thanks for such a clear-cut statement Boo.

However, I do believe that the nature of rape may change according to the place, culture, and values of the place. I think in the West we have all heard over and over again that rape is about violence and control, and that is largely true most of the time, but I also think it can be about stereotypical reasons like lack of control, arousal, extreme objectification, and the belief that they have the advantage and can get away with it. In the case of SEA, I belive that the latter point is very prominent and more widespread.

The chinese have a saying that says "if rape is unavoidable at least try to enjoy it"

Maybe that's why people get away with it in SEA.

Well, who knows, maybe you'll have a chance to find out. Men are also raped here on a regular basis. Perhaps you haven't met that special ladyboy in a dark soi yet.

[Tippaporn]

<snip>

Perhaps the most signicant issue in the rape statistics is the attitudes of the victims to their experience. Tippaporn is coming dangerously close to suggesting the victim's mindset determines their victimhood. I don't agree with that argument.

<snip>

What are the attitudes toward an issue, period? One which hasn't personally touched you yet. Not your attitude simply and only after the fact of a personal experience. The former is important, IMHO, much moreso than the attitudes once the experience is over and done with. Those would be quite obvious.

I can see, Guesthouse, that you are very astutely perceiving the implications of the idea that if your thoughts have something to do with your experience then logically it could be concluded that the "victims" may have something to do with what happened to them. That would be tantamount to uttering blasphemy on a horrifically insulting scale.

The question stands: what do your thoughts have to do with your experience? Anything or nothing or very little? You did not bother to consider the question in the least. I'm assuming that the most likely reason would be because of your initial perceptive conclusion that the victim may indeed have a role other than being a purely innocent victim. Again, a seemingly heretical concept that for very obvious reasons needs no further looking into. The question is, therefore, quite logically and maybe even moreso emotionally blown off as being utterly without value.

Consider the question as it relates to more innocuous situations first, if you want to give it a lasting chance. You wanted to move to Thailand and you did. You've thought about it day in and day out for a good length of time, planning the move even when faced with a great deal of unknowns. Your imagination was fun to play with as you created mental pictures of all that it would be. Emotionally it was a pursuit that gave you great highs as you felt your imaginative play. How much credit do you give yourself for creating that event? Your thoughts and intentions there are quite obvious and can be examined easily, and with zero pain mind you. This was nothing but fun. In such a case you could easily proclaim how your thoughts concluded in the fulfillment of a desire. Pat yourself on the back. Job well done.

You find yourself in a wonderful relationship with a mate. You naturally have loving thoughts about your mate and these thoughts provide you with impulses; impulses that call on you to buy flowers for her, an innocuous gift, perhaps. Thoughts of love and appreciation that unfold in countless ways which contribute to a harmonious and giving and utterly satisfying relationship. Not difficult here either to see how your thoughts play a crucial role in creating a joint union that includes a good deal of bliss. Another case where you have thoughts which you respond to, act upon, and then enjoy the sweet fruits produced by a very beneficial vein of thinking. Again, pat yourself on the back for another job well done.

The company you work for has just been bought out and is going through massive reorganization and downsizing. You fear a great deal about surviving in your current position. Their is huge angst as to whether or not you'll have a job tomorrow as you look around to see all the empty desks of your former coworkers. Financially you are not too well off and a job loss now would have severe implications as to your general livelihood and that of your family. You have a hard time sleeping nights. Your fear reaches irrational proportions as you imaginatively ponder worse case scenarios in many aspects of your life. And then you lose your job. Not so easy to see how your thoughts and imagination play a role in the outcome of this hypothetical situation. Would it be a stretch to call it a self-fulfilling prophecy?

You've just survived an auto wreck. Maybe or maybe not so fortunate for some of the others involved. Your mind is reeling with another type of impact; how could this happen?? I was simply minding my own business, observant of all traffic regulations and of traffic conditions themselves, and yet despite it all someone else managed to nail me. Like it or not, I find myself party to this situation, for here I do sit. In this type of situation most will never get beyond the question of "how did it happen." Maybe the "how" of could be ascertained, but the "why" of it would be very elusive. "How" and "why" are generally interchangable with most people, though they are actually two very separate things. "Why" someone dies, for example, is not at all the same as "how" they died. And in the case of death in particular the only one with the answer to the "why" is the recently deceased. Everyone else is left to speculate.

The answers to "why" in the last example simply are not as obvious as in some of the other examples. Do things work differently when "bad" things happen versus the "good" that comes into my life? Is there another, separate set of rules or mechanisms at play? When I create "good" in my life I seem to be in control. When "accidents" or "misfortune" occurs then it certainly appears that I have no control whatsoever. Who does? What powers are asserting themselves in my experience? God? Fate? Random chance? A bad life which is catching up to me? Enter all manner of theory. And begin the process of collecting data to support that theory. Oi!!

The point I'm making here is that people don't, do not, do not, do not, at all consider what role, if any, their thoughts play into their experience. They do not consider what role their imagination plays in creating something wanted or unwanted. People do not consider what role their emotions play in anything at all, either. And when thought, imagination and emotion is all combined what does it do????? Anything??

What's the purpose of thoughts? Why do we, as humans, have them? Are they us or are they separate from us? Are they tools? To what purpose is imagination? We all have it, but what does it do? Is it the devil's playground? Is it useful or idle? Does it give us humans the ability to momentarily step outside of here and now rockbed reality to see something that does not yet exist? Is imagination a tool? What are emotions? Do we control them or do they control us? Do they tell us anything? Hint of anything? Do they effect anything at all? Are they tools? What happens when thought, imagination and emotion all line up? When they are in unison? Anything? What happens when they oppose each other? Again, anything?

Until you question, for yourself and not for anyone else's sake, you'll never know. Doctors will pronounce your death sentence and you will feel victimized perhaps, stricken down by an impartial universe without rhyme or reason that you can see. And perhaps you'll take your doctor's pronouncement unconditionally, especially given that he is the godly expert and you are a mere ignorant mortal, and lay down and die.

That, my friend, happens often. And then again there are people who, being in a position of just being condemned to death by their divine peers, refute the sentence, take their lives into their own hands and miraculously recover. Are your thoughts, imagination and emotion in action here? If not, then what is? What would the plausible explanation be in these exceptional cases?

Think more, and certainly think much, much deeper than you've ever thought before. Don't be afraid or ashamed to look in places you never ever would have considered before, for there may lie some valid answers, to your utter surprise, to age old questions that are rehashed from generation to generation, and in many case not only without significant progress but with worsening results.

Until you or anyone else goes down that road of inquiry, searches it out fully, and not merely glancingly due to first impressions, there can't be a whole lot of argument or discussion. Topics such as this will simply eternally revolve around hypothetical factors that appear to be causual, the same tired solutions will be offered, based on limited understanding which is instead taken as true understanding, that have been tried and tried over and over from generation to generation with limited success, or even conversely causing greater detriment, and blame will continue to be pointed in all the wrong directions, while at the same time deflecting from the true source.

Think harder, folks, that's all. If you truly expect to find answers, think harder and look elsewhere. I don't consider myself a know-it-all, for their is too much to learn and I only strive to come away with as much as I possibly can in this short lifetime. So, please, please, spare me any responses that would suggest I have a holier-than-thou attitutde, or that I see myself as the answer man. I learn, and I offer what I learn, as little as it is. But I have noticed that real answers are anything other than what you previously would have imagined. Not surprising, would it be, considering that the current answers have been around for eons yet the same problems continue to exist. That's enough to make anyone wonder whether or not it's time to search in other directions.

Choke dee mak mak.

Edit: Just a final note on the motives, intentions, mental state, previous history, and/or methods of a rapist and whether or not these factors can all be neatly categorized. As many scenarios as you can think of most probably exist. Which can cause endless debate. Now I ask myself, is there any point in knowing for myself? How would that knowledge serve me?

Edited January 17, 2006 by Tippaporn

[meom]

forcing someone to have sex without their concent is IMO as a women, violent.

Thanks for such a clear-cut statement Boo.

However, I do believe that the nature of rape may change according to the place, culture, and values of the place. I think in the West we have all heard over and over again that rape is about violence and control, and that is largely true most of the time, but I also think it can be about stereotypical reasons like lack of control, arousal, extreme objectification, and the belief that they have the advantage and can get away with it. In the case of SEA, I belive that the latter point is very prominent and more widespread.

The chinese have a saying that says "if rape is unavoidable at least try to enjoy it"

Maybe that's why people get away with it in SEA.

Well, who knows, maybe you'll have a chance to find out. Men are also raped here on a regular basis. Perhaps you haven't met that special ladyboy in a dark soi yet.

I'm not chinese so you're shooting the messenger.

Regarding the ring of fire you can save your breath cause I've had it.

Didn't enjoy it but it didn't shatter my world either.

[GuestHouse]

Tippaporn,

Please do not mistake volume for substance.

Nothing that you have said, adds to or enlightens the discussion, though I will accept that this might not be so in your own perception.

[Tippaporn]

Tippaporn,

Please do not mistake volume for substance.

Your feelings, and possibly others, but not mine. Don't mistake your feelings for mine. Also, I'm not sure why you would like to make something appear as it is not. Did you really think that I thought that if I wrote a substantial post it would therefore have substance? Of course not. You don't agree and so you wish only to degrade and thought of an apt little quip that sounds cute. It's really nothing more. Not very commendable, IMHO.

Nothing that you have said, adds to or enlightens the discussion, though I will accept that this might not be so in your own perception.

Remember, too, that you can rightly speak only for yourself. That's not to say that others wouldn't agree with you, but I'll grant that they have their own voices.

You're reply doesn't surprise me, Guesthouse, nor does your sarcasm faze me, nor does anyone else's for that matter. I do understand where sarcasm comes from. But I sincerely hope you find answers for yourself that you feel comfortable with. That's all any of us do.

And since I recognize that we're each left to find those answers for ourselves I won't attempt to discredit others' efforts. It's poor choice, IMHumbleO.

Edited January 17, 2006 by Tippaporn

[GuestHouse]

What I argue is, it is not the mind of the victim that determines if and why a rape occurs, it is the mind of the attacker. We have responsibility for our actions.

You will of course immediately recognize this as stemming from St Agustine’s preposition with respect to the centrality of will controlling our actions. Perhaps, you and I might discuss that if and when a philosophy branch ever starts. Meanwhile, you might want to revist Descartes, so you can 'refresh' yourself on exactly what it is he said about thought and reality.

Oh and St Augustine was a man.

[evadgib]

A western woman gets raped and its all over the headlines.

I suspect the true figures remain the same, the only difference being that (at last) we're being told about them!