Death Of My Father In Thailand 3 Weeks Ago

[Eff1n2ret]

My condolences to the OP for the loss of her father.

Disregarding any considerations re the circumstances of his death, about which she already seems to accept little can be done, there seem to be 2 issues:- i) the security of tenure of her grandmother in her father's house, ii) the £40k due to the wife from his UK assets.

Given that the value of the house must be considerably more than £40k, there is presumably a fair sum left over for the other beneficiaries, and maybe that's the way her father wanted it. £40k is a decent sum, but it's hardly life-changing, and not necessarily worth the expense of contesting the will in court, which isn't cheap. So if I was able to assure the continued life tenancy of the grandmother, and to recoup the post-mortem ATM withdrawals from the wife's inheritance I would probably leave it at that. What the OP might like to ask herself is whether, if her father had lived for another 5 years, she would be bothering about the will at all - the real issue is his death so soon after making the will, but no-one is suggesting that anything can be done about that. So, is it worth incurring the stress and expense of going to court to get back at someone who was probably in it for the money all along?

As they say, "Up to you."

[WebBangkok]

I agree with taking legal advice in the UK.

They will know better than TV members. Even if they don't know how it all works, they will find out for you.

at 62 you can be healthy one minute and things can change very quickly as I have witnessed first hand.

Sorry for your loss.

[nocturn]

First off - my condolences to the OP for your loss. Tragic.

Secondly, without an autopsy to be sure, no-one will know the truth, however, it does sound like the deceased was poisoned with some sort of rat/animal poison. I have seen many farm animals go this way, and it starts with with hyperventilation, a racing heart, followed by cardiac arest. Usually within an hour after ingestion.

Terrible.

quite an allegation from a position of utter ignorance of the complete and/or true facts of the situation.

[WebBangkok]

First off - my condolences to the OP for your loss. Tragic.

Secondly, without an autopsy to be sure, no-one will know the truth, however, it does sound like the deceased was poisoned with some sort of rat/animal poison. I have seen many farm animals go this way, and it starts with with hyperventilation, a racing heart, followed by cardiac arest. Usually within an hour after ingestion.

Terrible.

quite an allegation from a position of utter ignorance of the complete and/or true facts of the situation.

Exactly,

Coming on and putting ideas of his father was fed rat poison, is a very silly thing to do.

He dies of heart failure at the age of 62, it does happen to the best of us.

Best thing for the OP to do it seek legal advice, not listen to what thaivisa members think what happen to his father.

[RogueExpat]

Neither of you two are in the least bit sceptical about the very short period of time between the changing of the will, and the death, and the "daily" draining of the account to the maximum everyday?

Edited July 31, 2012 by RogueExpat

[WebBangkok]

Neither of you two are in the least bit sceptical about the very short period of time between the changing of the will, and the death, and the "daily" draining of the account to the maximum everyday?

She didnt change the will, he did.

Well there is bills to be paid I guess for the hospital, but we have no idea how much the cost is for that.

Dying of heart failure at 62 and the wife with drawing money from the account doesnt equal suspect in my opinion. BUT, we really will never know the full story.

[nocturn]

Neither of you two are in the least bit sceptical about the very short period of time between the changing of the will, and the death, and the "daily" draining of the account to the maximum everyday?

i am more skeptical of the veracity of any statement regarding the use of poison from an unrelated, unqualified and anonymous party on an internet forum.

[gregb]

You might also wish to report her to the Thai police (or his bank) for using your fathers account after his death. That isn't allowed.

Maybe maybe not...not wholly illegal if he willing handed over the card & pin number and there is only her word

Did he have a will in Thailand is the question. If he didn't, then the standard laws apply and the wife is only entitled to half his estate in Thailand at the time of his death, with the remainder to be distributed to his other statutory heirs, of which his children are one. It doesn't matter whether she had his permission or not. At the time of his death, his permission stopped being meaningful, and either his written will or the default will took over. If there was no Thai will, the wife has effectively stolen the money from the other heirs, and they absolutely can report that to the police, and sue for its return.

It is very questionable whether a will from the UK will be admissible in a Thai court, especially one that is contested in the UK.

This could be a nasty legal battle. But my advice would be that if you are up for it, to contest in every way possible, in both Thailand and the UK.

[OZEMADE]

Neither of you two are in the least bit sceptical about the very short period of time between the changing of the will, and the death, and the "daily" draining of the account to the maximum everyday?

The changing of the will and the use of the ATM machine has nothing to do with your outragious statement of "it does sound like the deceased was poisoned with some sort of rat/animal poison". So basically you are now accusing someone of murdering the man? I would be careful of making a statement as that as you may find yourself in court.

[RogueExpat]

Neither of you two are in the least bit sceptical about the very short period of time between the changing of the will, and the death, and the "daily" draining of the account to the maximum everyday?

The changing of the will and the use of the ATM machine has nothing to do with your outragious statement of "it does sound like the deceased was poisoned with some sort of rat/animal poison". So basically you are now accusing someone of murdering the man? I would be careful of making a statement as that as you may find yourself in court.

Funny comment from a guy with your signature.

Now, since you obviously haven't read my post very well, or have trouble comprehending what I wrote, please, pray tell, who I am accusing.

I raised a possibility, and you could possibly even read an insinuation into it, however, not an accusation. Wouldn't be the first time we have heard of this type of thing happening in Thailand, would it now?

It is also (highly) possible, even in the face of overwhelming co-incidence in the details supplied by the OP, that the poor deceased did die of natural causes.

Even though I should have included the word "possibly" in my post above, how remiss of me for not doing so, please read more carefully before jumping on the bandwagon & committing to keyboard.

Edited July 31, 2012 by RogueExpat

[cardholder]

Under the

Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act 1975

the wife is likely to be entitled to exactly what was bequeathed. Certainly the house alone would not satisfy the terms (it is the widow's anyway) as she would also need to be 'maintained'.

The ATM withdrawals are standard practice in Thailand after death - usually the funeral costs exceed any sums available in the bank.

Murder would affect the above comments.

[Trembly]

I would also like to add that it is considered extremely naughty to access the money of a deceased person under Thai law too, particularly when the deceased has children who are in Thai law considered the default recipients of any such funds or property subject to the proper probate procedures.

Firstly there are definitely things that a good probate lawyer can do in the UK (see if you can get Legal Aid to pay for it).

Secondly I think you should contact a lawyer in Thailand to see if there's anything that can be done in Thailand - in the likely event that there are things you can do about it in Thailand you should immediately enlist the services of a reputable Thai probate lawyer and let them and the UK lawyers cooperate and coordinate.

Good luck.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Trembly

[Trembly]

Under the

Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act 1975

the wife is likely to be entitled to exactly what was bequeathed. Certainly the house alone would not satisfy the terms (it is the widow's anyway) as she would also need to be 'maintained'.

The ATM withdrawals are standard practice in Thailand after death - usually the funeral costs exceed any sums available in the bank.

Murder would affect the above comments.

Funds of the deceased are verboten to anyone but the rightful heirs and even then only after a court is satisfied that all rightful heirs have come forward and assented to the will + comply with the statutory inheritance laws of Thailand.

Just to illustrate, if a rightful heir that no one knew about suddenly turned up years later and got short shrift from the first set of heirs then the matter would go straight back to court and the inheritance re-divided.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Trembly

[Meisgq]

Just let him rest in peace. He was an old man and obviously had an inkling of what he was getting into since he didn't completely trust the lady. Do what you can, satisfy the will and split the rest. His intentions could have been genuine and the wife probably loved him, regardless if it was for financial or emotional reasons. You will get very little return trying to fight this in the countryside. Heck, it would be difficult fighting this if they had lived right in front of the UK embassy.

Shawn

[stickyrice]

the death certificate was in thai, after the translation, the cause of death was determind as 'heart failure'. dads doctor here says that is ultimately the demise of everyone...in the end, so tells you nothing about what caused the heart to stop.

My condolences also.

As an internal medicine physician, I would just like to say that WebBangkok is correct. Even though your father may have seen his usual physician recently and appeared to be in good health, having a sudden cardiac condition and dying is and unfortunate surprise that happens sadly all to often.

Also, I think your fathers physician means "cardiac arrest" (= the heart stops beating) is the ultimate demise of everyone. But "heart failure" which may or may not cause death, means the heart does not pump enough blood. This has many possible causes but in a previously healthy person, heart attack is by far the most common cause. Even if your father had a normal ECG, he could have a heart attack the next day.

Again, sorry for your untimely loss

[notouchmonkey]

I believe that it is normal to name an executor when making a will. Quite probably the executor would be the solicitor that your Father used to make the will. The executor will be reponsible for selling the property and distributing the money after deducting expenses and fees.

From what you say, over a 3 month period, your Father made a will and then changed it twice, with more benefit going to the wife. The wife accompanied him when he visited the solicitor. You may have a case for challenging the will due to "Undue influence"

http://legal-diction...undue influence

Talk to a solicitor, obviously not the one who drew up the will.

that was a really helpful post thank you v. much indeed.

[notouchmonkey]

The OP may find this useful...

Help if someone dies

thanyou, i should say here, that the FCO and the British embassy were in fact very good, they did what they could within their bureacratic constraints.

[notouchmonkey]

Under the

Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act 1975

the wife is likely to be entitled to exactly what was bequeathed. Certainly the house alone would not satisfy the terms (it is the widow's anyway) as she would also need to be 'maintained'.

The ATM withdrawals are standard practice in Thailand after death - usually the funeral costs exceed any sums available in the bank.

Murder would affect the above comments.

It is interesting what you say about using the atm. whilst we were in thailand and this was going on, we did always consider cultural differences, and to be far, we realised that in thailand, the wife expects to access the bank accounts of their spouse. Also we know that the funeral incurred expenses, that said however, the way that this funerals work (im guessing it may be same in all rural thailand) is that when a person in the community goes to a wedding / funeral / monk making (orwhateveritscalled) they give money to the family. this is then noted down and when that person has an 'event' you give the same money back. Every night people gave money, we estimated in the end 30, 000 baht. so accessing the accounts wasnt really needed.

also, we paid the hospital bill, which was 27, 000 if that is interesting to anyone!

[notouchmonkey]

He had been with her for 8 years. Even if he had not married her the UK would have considered her his partner. As his partner it is quite reasonable to will the estate to her and ignore the other family members who except for you you say gave little support. Your claim is rather problematic too. I despise people who denigrate the long time partner of members as you have done.

lol, despise away. I do not 'despise' my dads wife, i am in fact looking for ways to ignore my cultural norms and values and try to give her the benefit of the doubt. My sister and myself are actually working dam_n hard over here to ensure that she continues to get dads pensions. , trust me mate thats a hell of a lot of admin, whilst holding down a full time job and trying not to miss my dad and the future we all had planned. we know how important it is to her that she continues to live a 'hi-so' life. 8 years btw is not 'long-term', he was married to his second wife for 15 years - thats long term. Both of his first two wives ripped him off for his financial assets, leaving him to bring up me and my sis in abject poverty for a time. that is where my doubts about the motivations of his third wife come from.

[notouchmonkey]

You might also wish to report her to the Thai police (or his bank) for using your fathers account after his death. That isn't allowed.

Maybe maybe not...not wholly illegal if he willing handed over the card & pin number and there is only her word

You are right here. the uk banks say the account holder is responsible for their pin. if you tell someone it, or write it down, you (the account holder) is liable.

[notouchmonkey]

hmm... then...

-- his last will said, granny has to move out, in case he dies

-- he didnt say, he wishes to be buried in the UK...

the father was healthy and signed at a notary, who is obliged by law to explain the consequences of the will...

this post has made us think. why would the solicitor not say to my dad, hang on youve promised money you havent got, that means the house will have to be sold, ...we should include a 'caveat' in case you die before your mother. Surely thats the solicitors job? i would think.

[notouchmonkey]

1. You stated the doctors/hospitals report after translation said he died of 'Heart Failure' I don't see how there was any foul play here. If there was the doctor and hospital would have reported it to the police and the British Embassy.

2. Yes the creamation is normal in Thailand and more than likley it was performed in the village where he and his wife lived.

3. You also stated that he did not trust her enough to give her the card and pin number. However he would have had to give it to her when he went to the hospital with a heart condition as he would have been laid up in bed. Knowing Thai hospitals, they would want the cash up front and for his condition it would have cost a fair bit of cash. Probably why she was getting cash on a daily basis as he probably had a daily limit on the withdrawal.

Also can't comment on the Will, know nothing of the UK laws.

I am sorry for your loss. I hope all works out for you in the future. He sounded like a great guy and he had a very understanding daughter.

thank you for your post. and for being kind - he was indeed a great guy, he enjoyed life to the full, he was an old timer hedonist! me and my sister and my dad all lead fairly unconventional lives, but they are the lives we want to lead. dad gave us the courage to do that, and in return we tried real hard not to judge him or his choices.

[notouchmonkey]

My condolences to the OP for the loss of her father.

Disregarding any considerations re the circumstances of his death, about which she already seems to accept little can be done, there seem to be 2 issues:- i) the security of tenure of her grandmother in her father's house, ii) the £40k due to the wife from his UK assets.

Given that the value of the house must be considerably more than £40k, there is presumably a fair sum left over for the other beneficiaries, and maybe that's the way her father wanted it. £40k is a decent sum, but it's hardly life-changing, and not necessarily worth the expense of contesting the will in court, which isn't cheap. So if I was able to assure the continued life tenancy of the grandmother, and to recoup the post-mortem ATM withdrawals from the wife's inheritance I would probably leave it at that. What the OP might like to ask herself is whether, if her father had lived for another 5 years, she would be bothering about the will at all - the real issue is his death so soon after making the will, but no-one is suggesting that anything can be done about that. So, is it worth incurring the stress and expense of going to court to get back at someone who was probably in it for the money all along?

As they say, "Up to you."

you know about the 40k and what is perceived to be left over. i think you are right m8, as a rough calculation, this is entirely reasonable. and clearly dad meant for us to get some money and improve our lives. but herein lies a warning to anyone making a will. me and sis are residual beneficiaries' which means we get what is left over. that means once, the wife has taken the money in the accounts, ALL debts are paid, all expenses (solicitors, paperwork, income tax, inheritance tax, blah blah ), and i might add, all that atm withdrawals put him into overdraft. Its also worth mentioning that we both had to borrow money to get out to thailand for his funeral and so we could say our goodbyes. SO...before anyone decides someone is a residual beneficiary, think about all the costs that a death incurs. dying is an expensive business, but lucrative for the uk govt.

[nocturn]

Hi. Please bring this to the papers and make sure it gets publicated somewhere for thais to lose face. Will help you save the cash that she does not deserve and maybe help a few old white retards from doing the same idiotic mistake

infact if it were me i would burn my father's house to the ground seeing as its suposed to be mine after his death. Wouldnt let those people live in it.

what exactly would you like to see publicated? Early indications are HE changed HIS will in favour of his wife over children who gave him a very hard time over his choices.

we simply have no idea what went on, and the only thing that is certain is that the OP has posted their version here in the the hopes of garnering support and seeking advice.

we have one side of a story, and a festival of assumptions.

the ops assets should be frozen and the executor and the courts will decide in probate who gets what. it took 4 years to clear my fathers estate and all parties were in agreement.

Prepare to hand the lawyers the lion's share if, of course, anyone actually wants to buy his house

Edited July 31, 2012 by nocturn

[TommoPhysicist]

we have one side of a story, and a festival of assumptions.

But let's face it, it's a completely believable story, and it's not as if most of us haven't seen this (or a variation) happen ourselves.

[BookMan]

Sorry for the loss of your dad notouchmonkey.

Hope you can get things sorted to a degree that it brings about some closure for yourself and you can move on with your life.

[notouchmonkey]

Hi. Please bring this to the papers and make sure it gets publicated somewhere for thais to lose face. Will help you save the cash that she does not deserve and maybe help a few old white retards from doing the same idiotic mistake

infact if it were me i would burn my father's house to the ground seeing as its suposed to be mine after his death. Wouldnt let those people live in it.

what exactly would you like to see publicated? Early indications are HE changed HIS will in favour of his wife over children who gave him a very hard time over his choices.

we simply have no idea what went on, and the only thing that is certain is that the OP has posted their version here in the the hopes of garnering support and seeking advice.

we have one side of a story, and a festival of assumptions.

the ops assets should be frozen and the executor and the courts will decide in probate who gets what. it took 4 years to clear my fathers estate and all parties were in agreement.

Prepare to hand the lawyers the lion's share if, of course, anyone actually wants to buy his house

HE changed HIS will in favour of his wife over children who gave him a very hard time over his choices." you have read this wrong m8, we didnt give him a hard time EVER, when the rest of our family, and i might add, UK society gave him grief for marrying a thai wife half his age, we supported him, always under the eternal heading the HE had taught us..."As long as youre happy, that is all that counts". but of course you are right, you have only my side of the story. i know it may not seem like it but actually i am keen to try and understand the situation and the motivations of his wife. there is a big cultural divide and i am beginning to understand that abject poverty is a very real motivation for the actions of some ladies in thailand. there has to be some compassion for that. SOME people on this forum have helped me to understand that and find some of that compassion.

[Soutpeel]

hmm... then...

-- his last will said, granny has to move out, in case he dies

-- he didnt say, he wishes to be buried in the UK...

the father was healthy and signed at a notary, who is obliged by law to explain the consequences of the will...

this post has made us think. why would the solicitor not say to my dad, hang on youve promised money you havent got, that means the house will have to be sold, ...we should include a 'caveat' in case you die before your mother. Surely thats the solicitors job? i would think.

Yes I would say so in the UK, but if the will was done in Thailand with a Thai lawyer, most likely not

[TommoPhysicist]

i know it may not seem like it but actually i am keen to try and understand the situation and the motivations of his wife. there is a big cultural divide and i am beginning to understand that abject poverty is a very real motivation for the actions of some ladies in thailand. there has to be some compassion for that.

I think you can tell from the ATM card use her motives (and the fact he met her in a bar in Pattaya).

Greed and avarice.

But she was with him for 8 years, so maybe she is entitled.

Edited July 31, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[edwinclapham]

I dont have any advice Notouchmonkey, I have no experience in these matters, but I sincerely your father is resting in peace and guiding you in his own way.

Eddie