Green Samui

[Rooo]

[insertmembernamehere]

So? It's gone in a few minutes. And 100% organic.

[nod]

Any idea of the source? Looks like a biggish fire.

[Tropicalevo]

It looks quite impressive from over here (by Big Budha). It looks like it is just behind FV.

We had a pratt burning off his land about a month ago over here in Plai Laem. It spread for almost a kilometer, burned for 3 days and only stopped when Sixth Sense called out the fire brigade as it got nearer to them.

Wind gusts of almost 40 kph at the moment, There will be some damage done.

[Rooo]

So? It's gone in a few minutes. And 100% organic.

Really? Smoke is organic? Love to see you stick your head in it for a while & see what's organic about it.

Tell that to my doctor that treats for emphysema after fighting bush fires for so many years.

[insertmembernamehere]

Unless they are burning rubbish, which I don't think they are, organic material is being consumed by fire.

If smoke bothers you, you will have to just avoid it. Being in Samui is not like living in Chiang Mai during burn season.

Personally, I enjoy the smoke fires in Samui. Gives the place a nice rural feel and it's a great way to dispose of tree, shrub cuttings and leaves.

[Tropicalevo]

Unless they are burning rubbish, which I don't think they are, organic material is being consumed by fire.

If smoke bothers you, you will have to just avoid it. Being in Samui is not like living in Chiang Mai during burn season.

Personally, I enjoy the smoke fires in Samui. Gives the place a nice rural feel and it's a great way to dispose of tree, shrub cuttings and leaves.

and also a good way of starting fires that get out of control and cause damage to other people's property.

Over the years I have had to help in fighting a few of these 'but we were only burning the rubbish' fires that have caused damage to neighbour's plants and properties. The fire that caused the most damage was started by a badly set off lantern.

[xen]

Unless they are burning rubbish, which I don't think they are, organic material is being consumed by fire.

If smoke bothers you, you will have to just avoid it. Being in Samui is not like living in Chiang Mai during burn season.

Personally, I enjoy the smoke fires in Samui. Gives the place a nice rural feel and it's a great way to dispose of tree, shrub cuttings and leaves.

A far better way of getting rid of trees ,shrub cuttings and leaves is by turning it into mulch or compost and adds less carbon to the atmosphere.

[insertmembernamehere]

A far better way of getting rid of trees ,shrub cuttings and leaves is by turning it into mulch or compost and adds less carbon to the atmosphere.

How on earth could you get Thai people to be even remotely interested in that? And by what method would you use for this?

It would be like getting them to separate trash and recycle...Thais basically don't even fully understand the concept of littering being bad.

[PoorSucker]

How on earth could you get Thai people to be even remotely interested in that? And by what method would you use for this?

It would be like getting them to separate trash and recycle...Thais basically don't even fully understand the concept of littering being bad.

So It's Ok then.

Like stoning in Iran, because they don't even fully understand the concept it being bad.....

[Rooo]

They are advertising Samui as being a Green Island. There has been some guidelines " laws' put in place about burning.Enforcing them is just another matter.

[insertmembernamehere]

How on earth could you get Thai people to be even remotely interested in that? And by what method would you use for this?

It would be like getting them to separate trash and recycle...Thais basically don't even fully understand the concept of littering being bad.

So It's Ok then.

Like stoning in Iran, because they don't even fully understand the concept it being bad.....

It is ethnocentric to suggest that stoning as a form of corporal punishment is bad. Had a burger recently? I don't think a devout Hindu would look favorably on you for doing that.

Remember too, you are trying to culturally compare composting with corporal punishment; not exactly a level playing field.

Call me a cultural relativist, but burning cuttings or composting them is neither good nor bad in a cultual framework.

I was just reading about the Baining, a tribe in Papua New Guinea. (http://www.psycholog...t-culture-earth)

According to anthropologist Jane Fajans, now at Cornell University, the Baining eschew everything that they see as “natural” and value activities and products that come from “work,” which they view as the opposite of play. Work, to them, is effort expended to overcome or resist the natural. To behave naturally is to them tantamount to behaving as an animal. The Baining say, “We are human because we work.” The tasks that make them human, in their view, are those of turning natural products (plants, animals, and babies) into human products (crops, livestock, and civilized human beings) through effortful work (cultivation, domestication, and disciplined childrearing).

The Baining believe, quite correctly, that play is the natural activity of children, and precisely for that reason they do what they can to discourage or prevent it. They refer to children’s play as “splashing in the mud,” an activity of pigs, not appropriate for humans. They do not allow infants to crawl and explore on their own. When one tries to do so an adult picks it up and restrains it. Beyond infancy, children are encouraged or coerced to spend their days working and are often punished—sometimes by such harsh means as shoving the child’s hand into the fire—for playing.

Are the Baining's ideas good or bad?

Of course I am not saying that you or I cannot complain about what other peoples do -- it's almost a national ex-pat sport. My query was, if you think composting is a good idea that should be universally replaced in the cultural mindset of the locals, how would you reasonably expect to accomplish this? Composting is a process which must be tended to a certain extent (measuring, mixing, cutting/mulching, turning and monitoring) and is not just dumping cuttings in a pile and waiting for some magic to happen, nor is it intuitive how to proceed. For example, in my area there is a great amount of pruning debris from mango, chompoo, jack fruit and other trees, not to mention various very large ferns and shrubbery. A proper mix for composting ought to have the right proportion of "brown" material to "green" material and -- here's the kicker: Wood branches, chips and bark (or sawdust) has too much carbon content and will smother a compost mix unless used in moderation and balanced by additional green material. Nearly everything burned here is tree and bush cuttings and the sizes vary from finger thickness to that of your arm. This isn't really suitable for composting, unless of course you want to somehow entice Thais to buy a shredder or wood chipper, and then they might as well be told to buy a two-chamber composting drum for thousands of baht each.

But since composting is a hobby really, even in countries where it is undertaken by some intrepid gardening types, what do you suggest people do here with pruned branches and other cuttings? Should a garbage truck be called to come pick up the trimmings (that have been all cut to the right size and bundled)? What would they then do with this? Bury it somewhere? How much exhaust would be spewed into the air from the vehicles needed to carry out this operation? Is there an ecological advantage to this method in terms of plowing up the land to create a dump site and the associated burning of fossil fuels in the equipment versus just burning the lot?

And "advertising Samui as being a Green Island" is as everyone knows, utter and complete bulllshit. I particularly enjoy seeing these "green tour" slogans on the sides of the diesel smoke belching oversized Jeeps that ferry people to whatever natural sites we are supposed to enjoy. Any local effort at "going green" is pure exploitation.

[samuijimmy]

How on earth could you get Thai people to be even remotely interested in that? And by what method would you use for this?

It would be like getting them to separate trash and recycle...Thais basically don't even fully understand the concept of littering being bad.

So It's Ok then.

Like stoning in Iran, because they don't even fully understand the concept it being bad.....

It is ethnocentric to suggest that stoning as a form of corporal punishment is bad. Had a burger recently? I don't think a devout Hindu would look favorably on you for doing that.

Remember too, you are trying to culturally compare composting with corporal punishment; not exactly a level playing field.

Call me a cultural relativist, but burning cuttings or composting them is neither good nor bad in a cultual framework.

I was just reading about the Baining, a tribe in Papua New Guinea. (http://www.psycholog...t-culture-earth)

According to anthropologist Jane Fajans, now at Cornell University, the Baining eschew everything that they see as “natural” and value activities and products that come from “work,” which they view as the opposite of play. Work, to them, is effort expended to overcome or resist the natural. To behave naturally is to them tantamount to behaving as an animal. The Baining say, “We are human because we work.” The tasks that make them human, in their view, are those of turning natural products (plants, animals, and babies) into human products (crops, livestock, and civilized human beings) through effortful work (cultivation, domestication, and disciplined childrearing).

The Baining believe, quite correctly, that play is the natural activity of children, and precisely for that reason they do what they can to discourage or prevent it. They refer to children’s play as “splashing in the mud,” an activity of pigs, not appropriate for humans. They do not allow infants to crawl and explore on their own. When one tries to do so an adult picks it up and restrains it. Beyond infancy, children are encouraged or coerced to spend their days working and are often punished—sometimes by such harsh means as shoving the child’s hand into the fire—for playing.

Are the Baining's ideas good or bad?

Of course I am not saying that you or I cannot complain about what other peoples do -- it's almost a national ex-pat sport. My query was, if you think composting is a good idea that should be universally replaced in the cultural mindset of the locals, how would you reasonably expect to accomplish this? Composting is a process which must be tended to a certain extent (measuring, mixing, cutting/mulching, turning and monitoring) and is not just dumping cuttings in a pile and waiting for some magic to happen, nor is it intuitive how to proceed. For example, in my area there is a great amount of pruning debris from mango, chompoo, jack fruit and other trees, not to mention various very large ferns and shrubbery. A proper mix for composting ought to have the right proportion of "brown" material to "green" material and -- here's the kicker: Wood branches, chips and bark (or sawdust) has too much carbon content and will smother a compost mix unless used in moderation and balanced by additional green material. Nearly everything burned here is tree and bush cuttings and the sizes vary from finger thickness to that of your arm. This isn't really suitable for composting, unless of course you want to somehow entice Thais to buy a shredder or wood chipper, and then they might as well be told to buy a two-chamber composting drum for thousands of baht each.

But since composting is a hobby really, even in countries where it is undertaken by some intrepid gardening types, what do you suggest people do here with pruned branches and other cuttings? Should a garbage truck be called to come pick up the trimmings (that have been all cut to the right size and bundled)? What would they then do with this? Bury it somewhere? How much exhaust would be spewed into the air from the vehicles needed to carry out this operation? Is there an ecological advantage to this method in terms of plowing up the land to create a dump site and the associated burning of fossil fuels in the equipment versus just burning the lot?

And "advertising Samui as being a Green Island" is as everyone knows, utter and complete bulllshit. I particularly enjoy seeing these "green tour" slogans on the sides of the diesel smoke belching oversized Jeeps that ferry people to whatever natural sites we are supposed to enjoy. Any local effort at "going green" is pure exploitation.

Good response (s) there.... IMNH and others...

There is no easy solution to this, in Thailand or in any country.... Composting is not easy as you say, I certainly sympathized with Rooo's point of view about the smoke.... and what that causes....

Without the green material (grass etc) to break down, compostable material, it won't work.... Large Chippers (They are available from mainland and I have seen one or two on Samui) may have a hard time with stringy material like coconut frongs and not chip up well a few other stringy fiber plants too....They would bind in the chipping machine,

There are a number of places around the island that do try to compost (several of the nurseries) the problem is the lack of demand for the composted soil, they produce. ... plus delivery prices is quite high...

Just before I left Canada, there was a big push to totally ban burning, in some Municipalities around where I lived, but quickly it became very impracticable because of not only general pruning, but debris from winter storm damage etc ... Chipper companies just could not keep up.

I believe now, they allow burning on certain week-ends..... a few times a year.... The problem with that is if it is wet week end it produces lots more smoke, than it would if it was dry.... dry material burns faster with less smoke.... Obviously not burning plastic etc would be better.... but..... well that's going to take a long time to over come..... but people in the "west" do it too...

There was a "London Fog" driving into Nanthon this morning at the bottom of the hill, (Nanthon side) .... at least by the time I was returning home, it was almost done with.... because of the wind... quite a large area...

I suppose we are lucky here, that fires caused by lightening are not common (at least I don't think so?) but that is part of natures way of doing it.... in some places....

No easy solution....

One thing I find a little amusing is the "Keep Samui Green" cleanup crews, I think they come up my soi about twice a month and actually do a good job... but the sign on the side car of the motorbike is only in English!

Edited August 1, 2012 by samuijimmy

[Tropicalevo]

Are the Baining's ideas good or bad?

Of course I am not saying that you or I cannot complain about what other peoples do -- it's almost a national ex-pat sport. My query was, if you think composting is a good idea that should be universally replaced in the cultural mindset of the locals, how would you reasonably expect to accomplish this?

Regarding Bainings - as far as I know, there are none on Samui. As this is a Samui thread - I personally think that this is

As to how we educate some people to a better way of life - it is called 'hard work'.

Years ago - in the UK and the US we used to sell slaves. Someone convinced us that it might be wrong. It wasn't easy. People died, but I think that the world is a better place because we did not give up on that one. (Again but there was a point to be made. And there probably are slaves in Samui but now they are called illegal immigrants being exploited.)

We can sit here and ignore the slash and burn. The dumping of garbage and litter. (That is why burning is not eco friendy - there is loads of rubbish being burnt as well. Look closer.) We could also ignore the selling of virgins and the other 100's of things that go on here. Recycling - all of my (Thai) staff and those that I deal with regularly do it. They actually make 500 - 600 baht a time from it.

We have two choices. Say and do nothing, or try and do something.

I have had many 'discussions' with a local hotel that used to burn it's garbage every Sunday. "Oh - it is just plant litter!" Carp! Plastic bags, bin liners full of toxic <deleted> - you name it - they burned it. After a few discussions - they stopped burning it.

When you first wrote "Personally, I enjoy the smoke fires in Samui. Gives the place a nice rural feel and it's a great way to dispose of tree, shrub cuttings and leaves." I really thought that you were joking. It's not a rural feel when you are fighting a fire at 2 am that is burning 5 meters from a friend's house.

We can make a difference - if we really want to!

[insertmembernamehere]

When you first wrote "Personally, I enjoy the smoke fires in Samui. Gives the place a nice rural feel and it's a great way to dispose of tree, shrub cuttings and leaves." I really thought that you were joking. It's not a rural feel when you are fighting a fire at 2 am that is burning 5 meters from a friend's house.

My "off topic" comment was an example of how different cultures can be.

Obviously, we are not talking about forest fires, house fires or slash and burn. The subject is the random burning of (generally) organic material. Certainly there will be times when a few plastic bottles will be burned too along with some cardboard boxes and the like, but the lion's share of this burning is organic.

Now, just to be clear, if we are talking about burning actual garbage, I think that's wrong (and suspect it is wrong in the eyes of the law here too). I also think slash and burn is a technique applicable only under limited circumstances.

If you or someone has a particularly difficult time with smoke from organic burning because of some pre-existing condition, then you have a personal interest in avoiding burning and I appreciate that.

The fact is that burning is not rampant on Samui. Endemic to Thailand and SE Asia, sure, but not rife in Samui.

Another thing, and my point before, if you don't want people to burn their cuttings, give them a realistic and viable option. I don't really see any here. As I said before, can you see special trucks making pick-ups for cuttings or leaves and such? I don't. Who will pay for that anyway? We can't even get street lights to work or street grates repaired. Something as esoteric as targeted trash pick-ups and disposal? Hardly.

Finally, I agree we should be grousing about things we feel are in need of improvement, but then again, comparing burning a few piles of sticks and leaves to slavery is a disingenuous comparison, not to mention that there are no slaves on Samui.

[churchill]

I have recently moved to the Bophut area and there is a lot of burning from various places ..general rubbish and leaves , often along with a lot of plastic bottles or waste giving off poisonous , acrid fumes ..so bad that we have to shut all our windows 2 or 3 times a week for 30 minutes or more .

We have been told to take photos and to inform the tesse bahn .... whether they will do anything or not .. ?

It is a shame to have the fresh air poisoned ....