Is There A Rational Basis To The Idea Of Karma?

[leolibby]

Thesis: Karma is a meaningless superstition not supported by empiracle evidence.

.

There was a comment on this board claiming that If a man happened to be born in a hunter-gatherer society, it would be due to his "bad karma"? That explanation is a sorry attempt to explain why the man might have to hunt.... Who hoestly believes that?

Edited August 1, 2012 by leolibby

[GrahamR]

Personally I don't really care if it can be rationalised or not.

I try and do good because I want to do good things, not to gain merit.

I do meditation to try and improve my thinking.

I avoid killing etc not because I'm frightened of being reincarnated as a cockroach, but because I don't want to kill anything.

I just want to practice and not worry about carrots or sticks.

Graham

[leolibby]

Personally I don't really care if it can be rationalised or not.

I try and do good because I want to do good things, not to gain merit.

I do meditation to try and improve my thinking.

I avoid killing etc not because I'm frightened of being reincarnated as a cockroach, but because I don't want to kill anything.

I just want to practice and not worry about carrots or sticks.

Graham

I totally agree. The idea of karma adds no substance to Buddhism.

[rockyysdt]

You have to remember that the Buddha lived in a world dominated by Brahmanist thinking.

The Buddha didn't invent notions like reincarnation and kharma, these were already in place.

The Buddha was clever.

He packaged his messages so they dovetailed discreetly into the thinking of the day.

The reason for this was that anyone who stood up in defiance of Brahmanism was in danger of being killed.

Also, by fitting into prevailing belief it was easier to promote his messages.

He taught that one could be free of suffering (dhukka) by breaking free from delusion, greed and aversion through a practice which includes developing "wisdom", "ethical conduct" and "concentration".

Kharma, contrary to its misuse as fate, is a verb, ones actions.

What many refer to as kharma are actually referring to the fruits of kharma which, vipaka.

Those who are filled with doubt cling to the notion of a mechanism which adds up all the bad things one acts out and ensures one suffers some kind of payback in time.

All you really need to know is that you should live your life ethically and with wisdom.

Not doing this will be your downfall in terms of awakening (your fruits of kharma).

Attachment to the metaphysical will always be beyond one who is anchored to body/mind.

Kharma and its function is one of those things.

If you are ethical and wise you will never have an issue with kharma.

Edited August 1, 2012 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

In other words, those who live ethical and wise lives don't need to expend energy worrying about kharma.

The actions of those who are unethical and foolish will resuilt in vipaka.

It seems that being re born in poor circumstance is of the metaphysical and beyond this fathom long carcass.

Thus have I heard:

The end of the world can never

Be reached by walking. However,

Without having reached the world’s end

There is no release from suffering.

I declare that it is in this fathom—

long carcass, with its perceptions

and thoughts, that there is the world, the

origin of the world, the cessation of the

world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world.

Trying to define or understand the metaphysical (kharma) is like trying to find the end of the world by walking.

Edited August 1, 2012 by rockyysdt

[McMagus]

Why need there be a rationale?

The harder one seeks perfection the further it recedes Grathhopper.

Edited August 1, 2012 by camerata
Off-topic comments deleted.

[lungmi]

The problem of this discussion is a semiology problem.

About 50-90 % of Thai (monks incuded) doesn't know what is 'kamma'.

Rockysydt is on the way

[KeyserSoze01]

How does one rationalize spirituality?

[Several]

Rationalisation only serves explaination. Buddhism is more about practice and experience. You could rationalise how to ride a bike but no amount of explaination will give you the ability. Whether Kamma exists or not is argued in search of a definitive explaination, but it seems irrelevant. Selfish uncaring behaviour will most likely result in some form of suffering regardless. Loving kindness will serve you well no matter what happens. Events occur in life that lie outside Kamma too. A good person drowns in a flood, a bad one wins the lottery. Two things will always exist in this universe for humans. The unknown and the unknowable. Sometimes there just isn't a satisfactory explaination and there never will be.

[leolibby]

Trying to define or understand the metaphysical (kharma) is like trying to find the end of the world by walking.

And yet it is often used to explain.. for example, ants drowning in water because thhey were moving toward sugar

[Sheryl]

The Buddha most definitely did teach karma, the Law of Dependent Origination being one of his key teachings.

But it was never said or suggested that everything that happens is the result of karma. There is a cause behind everything, of course, but not necessarily a karmic one.

Many events have no karmic cause and many actions are karmically neutral, generating no karma.

The fundamental concept as I understand it is that impulses/intentions that are rooted in either wholesomeness or unwholesomeness carry a force which will have consequences for the one who generated them. Not necessarily (or even usually) in another life, often right away, but sometimes at a later date, be it this life or another. So if you act out of hatred, you will reap negative consequences -- definitely in the immediate moment, since hatred is a miserable thing to feel, and possibly later as well, and vice versa if you act out of love or kindness. But many actions aren't based on either.

[Johnniey]

Do you believe in Newtons 3rd law?

I never thought about it until 25 years ago when I started meditating with the BKWSU. They explained karma well.

http://www.bkwsu.org/whatwedo/courses/fcirym/topics.htm/karma.htm

Now, it's as natural to me as the Law of Gravity.

[Johnniey]

Events occur in life that lie outside Kamma too. A good person drowns in a flood, a bad one wins the lottery.

Have you ever thought that karma can be from a previous birth?

Of topic a bit but I've been asking several monks recently if bad karma can be erased by positive actions or 'tamboon'. Some say it can and some say that once you do something which is bad, it will always return, either in this life or a later one.

[Sheryl]

Events occur in life that lie outside Kamma too. A good person drowns in a flood, a bad one wins the lottery.

Have you ever thought that karma can be from a previous birth?

Of topic a bit but I've been asking several monks recently if bad karma can be erased by positive actions or 'tamboon'. Some say it can and some say that once you do something which is bad, it will always return, either in this life or a later one.

To my understanding, it does not get "erased", but karma is not permanent. It's fruits arise and then they are done, gone, and what is left is only the newer karma you have generated. In other words, you did something(s) wrong. this will bring consequences to you at some point, sooner or later, but once it has, that karma is finished, gone. So by cleaning up your act so to speak, you ensure that all future karma will be positive and over time any residual negative karma will bring its effects and then be gone.

This point of view can lend some serenity when bad things happen. For example, something you value is stolen. You can feel aggrieved/angry/vengeful (thus doubling your misery and probably creating additional unwholesome karma for yourself), or you can consider that maybe this was the karmic result of some negativity you generated in the past -- perhaps taking something that wasn't yours, or just being excessively greedy, or whatever,. If so, you have now "paid off" that karma and it is gone, you're free of it.

Looking at misfortunes or wrongs done to you as debts paid (and thus no longer outstanding) makes it easier to accept and not feel bitter. Meanwhile, you keep on trying to do as much good as you can and to cultivate positive mental states. Whatever the literal truth of the matter or how it all works, life cannot fail to improve this way.

We all have stocks of both negative and positive karma. You can't change the old stock, but it is continually working itself off anyhow, while you can control the new stock being created. it is in our interests (and everyone else's) to try to generate as much positive karma as you can and as little negative as possible.

[Several]

Everything is subject to arising, maintaining then decay. If Kamma can be created then it will exhaust itself. Kamma is exhausted quicker through effort. However an Arahant does not produce good or bad Kamma. Therefore its creation has an emotional factor. The other post about Dependant Origination is correct and that process also works in reverse.

One thing I wonder is if there is Gestalt or group Kamma. I've been told not, but I do suspect the common actions of any size group (being comprised of individuals) will produce a common Kamma.

Rebirth is both moment to moment and life to life. In the absence of a soul or immortal element I don't think you can say Kamma is 'recorded' anywhere, but that each subsequent moment or life is the result of the quality of previous actions. Nagasena in the Questions of Milinda compares it to lighting one candle from another. The new flame is a result of the old, but it is not the old flame itself.

[leolibby]

Karma is not like "every action equals opposite and equal reaction." Because emotions are not so clear cut.. anger is neither positive or negative.. anger could motivate one to correct an injustice. Causing pain can have positive effects.. like if you disciplin a child. Being hurt in a relationship can cause you to learn valuable lessons. Showing too much affection to a dog might make the dog not obey you at all (happened to me).

Rebirth is both moment to moment and life to life. In the absence of a soul or immortal element I don't think you can say Kamma is 'recorded' anywhere, but that each subsequent moment or life is the result of the quality of previous actions.

do you mean future events are influenced by our knowlege of our past actions? if so I like that better because it takes into account intention.. like there is a difference between if you kill an a an animal just to see it in pain, and if you kill it to feed your family. If just the physical act of killing mattered, there would have to be a spirital medium to record the event.. like a soul or an akashic record.

[leolibby]

One thing I wonder is if there is Gestalt or group Kamma. I've been told not, but I do suspect the common actions of any size group (being comprised of individuals) will produce a common Kamma.

well Hitler and Caligula and Saddam didn't have happy endings. As for Hitler, he had numerous health issues...

[Johnniey]

One thing I wonder is if there is Gestalt or group Kamma. I've been told not, but I do suspect the common actions of any size group (being comprised of individuals) will produce a common Kamma.

One thing I thought about was the earthquakes in Japan - could this be collective karma resulting from the atrocities they did 60-70 years ago?

Personally, I believe that God may put people with karmic debts in the same area then have a tsunami or earthquake.

This brings another question - can God interfere with karma.

Hindus believe that through thye practise of bhakti yoga karmic debts can be erased.

I know it's not about Buddism but there are so many similarities in Thai buddhism.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Johnniey

[leolibby]

Do you believe there is some underlying rational that governs where people are born?

I don't-- but I used to think about it.. like, why did I just happen to be american? what am I me and not my brother? and why is he himself and not me? when I first heard of buddhism, it was ike.. you are your brother because ego is an illusion.

later on I believed our astrological ... chart was a symbol of our karma. I think that idea would require a soul though.. unless karma itself is what reincarnates.

One way I like to refute religion is by saying "you realize you are Christian because you were born into a christian society and raised that way? If you were born in ancient Greece or Egypt or Norway. you would follow the religions of those times and places? saying, "i was christian before i was born so god placed me with other christians" does not work. i don't think any one ever thought that... was Tom Cruise a scientologist before he was born?

however, wasn't being a women generally considered a sign of rotten karma ...

[leolibby]

also, most religious people are in poor, natural disaster- ridden countries. Maybe thats a sign of good karma tho.

[dutchguest]

I see karma in the moral, spiritual sense as essentially the same and a continuation of the fysical laws of cause and effect, action and reaction, the third law of Newton as said above. There is no reason to create a dualistic view here (only I think Newton's view was restricted to the mechanical world which is only a part of a wider, dialectical view of nature that developed later and transcended the mechanical view. Einstein was a pioneer in this).

The workings of karmic laws in the moral sense may be less easy to understand, as they do not belong to the objectively testable outerworld but they can be experienced and well the better the more one is advanced on the spiritual path and probably in its totality by enlightened persons (although communicating these experiences may be difficult).

Nature or existence are i.m.o. not ruled by mechanical working laws but by dialectical working laws. So is the human mind as part of nature. This means a certain action will not always have the the same effect. If you add energy to water it becomes warmer, untill at a certain point you get a qualitative change from the water into steam. The same i.m.o. if you kill an animal it will not always have the same karmic effect, it depends, inter alia of the intention. So it are not simply mechanical working laws of cause and effect, it is much more complicated.

[Johnniey]

Do you believe there is some underlying rational that governs where people are born?

I don't-- but I used to think about it.. like, why did I just happen to be american? what am I me and not my brother? and why is he himself and not me? when I first heard of buddhism, it was ike.. you are your brother because ego is an illusion.

later on I believed our astrological ... chart was a symbol of our karma. I think that idea would require a soul though.. unless karma itself is what reincarnates.

One way I like to refute religion is by saying "you realize you are Christian because you were born into a christian society and raised that way? If you were born in ancient Greece or Egypt or Norway. you would follow the religions of those times and places? saying, "i was christian before i was born so god placed me with other christians" does not work. i don't think any one ever thought that... was Tom Cruise a scientologist before he was born?

however, wasn't being a women generally considered a sign of rotten karma ...

Yes, I do believe there is some rationale that determines where people are born. Interstingly, when I was in Daramsala, where the Dalai Lama lives, there was a young Lama who had Spanish parents. They did tests and were sure that this baby was the reincarnation of the last Lama Yeshe.

The reincarnation of Mahatma Gandhi was born in the UK - as a member of the Royal family, seemingly.

Of course is an integral part of reincarnation. There is a lot of evidence on reincarnation - surprising that still 1/4 of the world don't believe in it.

[BuckarooBanzai]

IMHO karma is a common thread through many philosophies, religions, and cultures.

ie.

As you sow, so shall you reap

Live by the sword, die by the sword

Do onto others etc.

Life is like a boomarang

What goes around comes around

And many many others that warn one that his actions will effect ones future which seems reasonable enough.

This being the case it must have some rational.

[leolibby]

They did tests and were sure that this baby was the reincarnation of the last Lama Yeshe.

what tests?

I think most people believe in reincarnation because it engages the imagination. It's a sort of escapism... like reading a book and vicariously being other people (the characters). Why do people read romance? to see life through the character's eyes. I used to believe I am a reincarnation of Hermann Hess, German author. We have the same birthday and one of his books has a character with my name (Leo), and my physical description... hermann himself is a character called H.H... at the end of the novel we discover Leo and HH are the same person... Leo is the higher self..

It's a neat story, ...engages the imagination. I've had many past life readings from psychics though-- they all have different stories. I'm not saying reicarnation is wrong; just that i'm a skeptic.

Edited August 2, 2012 by leolibby

[leolibby]

IMHO karma is a common thread through many philosophies, religions, and cultures.

ie.

As you sow, so shall you reap

Live by the sword, die by the sword

Do onto others etc.

Life is like a boomarang

What goes around comes around

And many many others that warn one that his actions will effect ones future which seems reasonable enough.

This being the case it must have some rational.

well if you are mean, people might be mean back... thats common sence, not karma

[BuckarooBanzai]

IMHO karma is a common thread through many philosophies, religions, and cultures.

ie.

As you sow, so shall you reap

Live by the sword, die by the sword

Do onto others etc.

Life is like a boomarang

What goes around comes around

And many many others that warn one that his actions will effect ones future which seems reasonable enough.

This being the case it must have some rational.

well if you are mean, people might be mean back... thats common sence, not karma

karma /"kA;m@, "k@;m@/· n. (in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person’s actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as affecting their future fate. Ø informal the sum of good or bad luck, viewed as resulting from one’s actions.– DERIVATIVES karmic adj. karmically adv.– ORIGIN from Sanskrit karman ‘action, effect, fate’.Say again?

[leolibby]

please note:

rational is an adjective.... logical

rationale is a noun... basis for

[BuckarooBanzai]

please note:

rational is an adjective.... logical

rationale is a noun... basis for

So sorry for the typo. Your Karma is certainly being improved by your outstanding efforts to correct others typing mistakes and disregarding their attempt at helping you answer your question. That is what karma is all about.

[leolibby]

please note:

rational is an adjective.... logical

rationale is a noun... basis for

So sorry for the typo. Your Karma is certainly being improved by your outstanding efforts to correct others typing mistakes and disregarding their attempt at helping you answer your question. That is what karma is all about.

glad to hear it. but that wasn't directed at anyone...except me... i know i have committed typos.

[Several]

Karma is not like "every action equals opposite and equal reaction." Because emotions are not so clear cut.. anger is neither positive or negative.. anger could motivate one to correct an injustice. Causing pain can have positive effects.. like if you disciplin a child. Being hurt in a relationship can cause you to learn valuable lessons. Showing too much affection to a dog might make the dog not obey you at all (happened to me).

Rebirth is both moment to moment and life to life. In the absence of a soul or immortal element I don't think you can say Kamma is 'recorded' anywhere, but that each subsequent moment or life is the result of the quality of previous actions.

do you mean future events are influenced by our knowlege of our past actions? if so I like that better because it takes into account intention.. like there is a difference between if you kill an a an animal just to see it in pain, and if you kill it to feed your family. If just the physical act of killing mattered, there would have to be a spirital medium to record the event.. like a soul or an akashic record.

Its is cause and effect and it is the intention that counts. Associated emotion gives 'colour' to the resulting Kamma. Buddha suffered headaches because in a previous life he liked to watch his father, a fisherman, kill fish by smashing their heads against the deck of the boat. This vicarious enjoyment produced a kammic debt. Being enlightened he didn't concern himself with the suffering and did nothing to prevent it as he had to pay. So yes I'm saying intent is the important factor.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Several