Is Your Partner Truly Compatible with your values

[chanchao]

Ok chances are this will turn out a bit controversial for which I apologise in advance. But I do have to get this off my chest.

Yesterday at the pub I met a 40-something Thai lady. Nice person. Reminded me of Dr. Pornthip somewhat with a pretty radical, short hairstyle. Almost 3 weeks ago her husband died of a hart attack, still in his fifties. They have a 5 year old girl together, cute as a button, I saw the pictures.

Anyway, so within 3 weeks of his death she cancelled the rent of their house, because it was a grand 8000 baht a month, and moved into a small 1600 baht one room apartment, with their daughter. Mind you, lack of money wasn't an immediate issue as she still had access to all his bank accounts and affairs. Also a family member of her late husband was in Thailand to help her sort those things out.

Okay, 8000 baht is a tad on the high side in Chiang Mai, and I know many Thai people think of 'renting' anything as throwing money off a bridge. But really, after a 5 year old girl loses her father, surely one can give it a year or so before making further changes that have the potential to further upset her life. (Her husband didn't die in the house so ghosts aren't the issue either). I wonder if the next thing that gets cut is the nice international kindergarten her daughter goes to. (Saw the pictures of that, too)

I wonder how many expats/retiries, especially those with children, have made sure that their partner doesn't instantly convert back to a 'lower class' (sorry) lifestyle and dragging your kids with it. Will they still go to that nice school/kindergarten, live in the same nice neighborhood, be fed cornflakes and peanut butter sandwiches (if they're partial to that) and generally continue on the path / lifestyle / education you have in mind?

I wonder if there's things you can do/discuss to make sure this happens, or that the best guarantee is to start a family only with someone who's already more or less on that higher/middle class level you are? Thoughts?

[astral]

Reading the title, my immediate response was that I have no complaints

after 8 years of marriage.

I know my wife is quite money conscious. She does not come from a rich

family.

I am sure that she would take steps to conserve money, and would look for

a more economic way to live. Her needs from a house are not the same as mine.

Although the lady you mention may have access to the husband's bank accounts,

do you have any idea how much money there is in the account?

How long it will last?

Whether there is a pension to top it up?

She may well have made her decision based on information that is not available to you.

Give her a break.

[GuestHouse]

Chanchao, I think you have raised one of the best questions I’ve seen on here for a long time.

I’d go further and ask have Farang parents (in Farang + Thai marriages with children) in or out of Thailand considered the full spectrum of issues that need to be addressed in the event of their own death?

It is not merely a matter of the compatibility of the Thai partner, but because of the way Thai families operate, the part the Thai family will play, and the part the Thai family will want, perhaps expect, from the estate.

I know that while I trust my wife, her parents and her sisters, I also know that things change, sisters will marry and who will they marry? What might be the pressure from the family then?

Nor is it just your own death you need to consider, what happens if your Thai partner dies, leaving you to sort out property rights in Thailand? - These are things that should not be left to chance.

The correct vehicle to deal with these issues is of course a Will and Testament; I would suggest that if you own property overseas, you need two wills. One for wealth/property held in Thailand and one for wealth/property held overseas. You should also be looking at the provisions under pension (if any) as these have very rigorous controls that can be used to protect the rights of your children/spouse.

There are standard things to consider but topping the list is the selection of executors and trustees.

I have nominated members of my family as executors and trustees to my will. The trustees of my pension are fixed.

I have included specific instructions that deal with the issues that I consider to be important.

Who gets the property in Thailand?

My wife owns our property in Thailand in her name, I hold lease to the land and property, so if I die she gets the lot. If she dies, I still hold the lease. (I know of one case this was contested in court in which the family of the Thai wife contested the wife’s will and the lease, but the court ruled in favour of the Farang husband upholding his rights to live in the property for life) – Important Note (YOU BOTH NEED TO MAKE A WILL).

Your wife’s will should name your child as the heir to her (your) property in Thailand and should specifically state that you have the right to live in the property for life. Talk to a lawyer to sort that out.

Who gets the money in Thailand?

It depends how much it is. If you have large amounts of money in Thailand and you have children in Thailand with a Thai wife and you are also worried about your child’s welfare in the event of your death, then my advice would be move the money out of Thailand – Put it back home where it can controlled by another will and testament.

If it is a small amount of money (Less than would provide a living income if invested) – Leave it to your wife, she’s going to need money to live – Don’t leave her penniless.

What I would do with large amounts, having ensured they are off shore from Thailand, and therefore out of the reach of Thai law, is make a second will back home giving instructions for what you want for your child(ren).

Typically you might, give a small living allowance to your wife but attach a generous child care allowance provided conditions are met. For example: That your child attends one of a number of schools. That your child remains in the home you bought. That your child attends (what ever, university, language classes at a certain language school, music lessons, travels for holidays to stay with your family at stated intervals etc).

These are all issues to be discussed with executors and trustees.

Money now and money later.

One thing to avoid, if resources permit, is giving all the wealth over at the time of your death. You should ensure that your wealth is spread, money now for today’s problems, money for living up to, say graduation, money at a later time in life. This latter one needs some thought. You need to ensure that if you are going to leave your child a chunk of cash it isn’t blown on a new car, or worse still hived off by a greedy relative.

A Huge Danger

Perhaps the biggest problem to avoid, and one that is too often overlooked is disinheritance. You can be absolutely sure that if you pop your clogs leaving a rich widow, there will be Thais (and more than a few Farangs) queuing at the gate of the crematorium in the hope of camping in on a free feast. hel_l, my sister in-laws both told me that they had guys suddenly take an interest in them only because their sister had married a farang (Some of these guys and one of the guys mothers made no secret of the fact that they wanted in on what seemed to them to be a lottery win). You need to take care of this. Again, protect your child’s future in your will. The last thing you want to happen is some guy marrying your wife and then using Thai laws that are in the Thai husband's favour to dissinherrit your child(ren).

Don't leave your child(ren)'s wealth wholey in the hands of your wife, leave it in the hands of trustees who are not going to be controlled by family/new partner/bad laws.

And a final word

I take the view that children are shared, I don’t know what is best any more than my wife does. Between us, if we are lucky, we might get some of the answers right.

I therefore think the thing to do is to discuss what you want for your children, stress the importance of the things you feel are important and explain what provisions you have made in your will to provide for those important things.

You then need to accept that your wife too needs her life to go on after your death. Certainly if you have property and any kind of guaranteed income (pensions etc) she is going to be covered financially. But you need to be careful not to place obstacles against her moving on in life. Getting that right needs some thought and needs to be discussed with your wife and the executors/trustees to your will and pension.

It is a tough balancing act, but one that needs to be dealt with and not left to chance, or worse still the avarice of anyone that might want to take advantage of your wife’s vulnerability under weak Thai laws.

The best I have seen is a guy who died and left provisions that enabled his wife to have a comfortable life, while enabling his daughter to go on to university in the UK and get a real good start in life.

The worst I have seen is a guy dead in the house, and his wife’s relatives swarming over the house like a plague of locust, taking anything and everything they want, his two children helping aunts and uncles load their life choices in the back of pick-up truck.

DO NOT LEAVE THINGS TO CHANCE….. MAKE A WILL.

[Musophobia]

Excellent post GH and may I reiterate these final words again.

DO NOT LEAVE THINGS TO CHANCE….. MAKE A WILL.

[chanchao]

What a brilliant post GuestHouse!!! Thank you for the excellent information and advice and writing it all down! (And ending with a 'best case' as well as a true nightmare scenario that should instill some urgency on people to get this one right!)

[simon43]

If I predecease my Thai wife, I think she will be upgrading the house,car etc, not downsizing

[Mighty Mouse]

Farang husband dies and leaves estate to Thai wife and child.

The death more than likely would terminate any further income from the marriage.

Wife now needs to plan her finances carefully. If the wife considers that she and child can survive better and longer by paying cheaper rent, full marks to her. Her family has been reduced to two. No further need for a large house.

For various reasons she may not be able to re-enter the work force so preserving her inheritance is a must.

The OP met the 40 something year old at the pub. If she was alone, perhaps she is now on the look out for a replacement husband. If so, this could be her only way of ensuring her financial future. (and providing for her personal needs also.)

I hope she succeeds.

Guesthouse has summed up the whole situation nicely with a very good post.

[chanchao]

> The OP met the 40 something year old at the pub. If she was alone,

> perhaps she is now on the look out for a replacement husband.

Possibly, but I didn't want to speculate on that, or take the discussion into that direction.

[Boon Mee]

Well, if I predecease my wife I'm comfortable in the knowledge she'll vote the Conservative line as before!

[Thaising]

Chanchao, I think you have raised one of the best questions I’ve seen on here for a long time.

I’d go further and ask have Farang parents (in Farang + Thai marriages with children) in or out of Thailand considered the full spectrum of issues that need to be addressed in the event of their own death?

It is not merely a matter of the compatibility of the Thai partner, but because of the way Thai families operate, the part the Thai family will play, and the part the Thai family will want, perhaps expect, from the estate.

I know that while I trust my wife, her parents and her sisters, I also know that things change, sisters will marry and who will they marry? What might be the pressure from the family then?

Nor is it just your own death you need to consider, what happens if your Thai partner dies, leaving you to sort out property rights in Thailand? - These are things that should not be left to chance.

The correct vehicle to deal with these issues is of course a Will and Testament; I would suggest that if you own property overseas, you need two wills. One for wealth/property held in Thailand and one for wealth/property held overseas. You should also be looking at the provisions under pension (if any) as these have very rigorous controls that can be used to protect the rights of your children/spouse.

There are standard things to consider but topping the list is the selection of executors and trustees.

I have nominated members of my family as executors and trustees to my will. The trustees of my pension are fixed.

I have included specific instructions that deal with the issues that I consider to be important.

Who gets the property in Thailand?

My wife owns our property in Thailand in her name, I hold lease to the land and property, so if I die she gets the lot. If she dies, I still hold the lease. (I know of one case this was contested in court in which the family of the Thai wife contested the wife’s will and the lease, but the court ruled in favour of the Farang husband upholding his rights to live in the property for life) – Important Note (YOU BOTH NEED TO MAKE A WILL).

Your wife’s will should name your child as the heir to her (your) property in Thailand and should specifically state that you have the right to live in the property for life. Talk to a lawyer to sort that out.

Who gets the money in Thailand?

It depends how much it is. If you have large amounts of money in Thailand and you have children in Thailand with a Thai wife and you are also worried about your child’s welfare in the event of your death, then my advice would be move the money out of Thailand – Put it back home where it can controlled by another will and testament.

If it is a small amount of money (Less than would provide a living income if invested) – Leave it to your wife, she’s going to need money to live – Don’t leave her penniless.

What I would do with large amounts, having ensured they are off shore from Thailand, and therefore out of the reach of Thai law, is make a second will back home giving instructions for what you want for your child(ren).

Typically you might, give a small living allowance to your wife but attach a generous child care allowance provided conditions are met. For example: That your child attends one of a number of schools. That your child remains in the home you bought. That your child attends (what ever, university, language classes at a certain language school, music lessons, travels for holidays to stay with your family at stated intervals etc).

These are all issues to be discussed with executors and trustees.

Money now and money later.

One thing to avoid, if resources permit, is giving all the wealth over at the time of your death. You should ensure that your wealth is spread, money now for today’s problems, money for living up to, say graduation, money at a later time in life. This latter one needs some thought. You need to ensure that if you are going to leave your child a chunk of cash it isn’t blown on a new car, or worse still hived off by a greedy relative.

A Huge Danger

Perhaps the biggest problem to avoid, and one that is too often overlooked is disinheritance. You can be absolutely sure that if you pop your clogs leaving a rich widow, there will be Thais (and more than a few Farangs) queuing at the gate of the crematorium in the hope of camping in on a free feast. hel_l, my sister in-laws both told me that they had guys suddenly take an interest in them only because their sister had married a farang (Some of these guys and one of the guys mothers made no secret of the fact that they wanted in on what seemed to them to be a lottery win). You need to take care of this. Again, protect your child’s future in your will. The last thing you want to happen is some guy marrying your wife and then using Thai laws that are in the Thai husband's favour to dissinherrit your child(ren).

Don't leave your child(ren)'s wealth wholey in the hands of your wife, leave it in the hands of trustees who are not going to be controlled by family/new partner/bad laws.

And a final word

I take the view that children are shared, I don’t know what is best any more than my wife does. Between us, if we are lucky, we might get some of the answers right.

I therefore think the thing to do is to discuss what you want for your children, stress the importance of the things you feel are important and explain what provisions you have made in your will to provide for those important things.

You then need to accept that your wife too needs her life to go on after your death. Certainly if you have property and any kind of guaranteed income (pensions etc) she is going to be covered financially. But you need to be careful not to place obstacles against her moving on in life. Getting that right needs some thought and needs to be discussed with your wife and the executors/trustees to your will and pension.

It is a tough balancing act, but one that needs to be dealt with and not left to chance, or worse still the avarice of anyone that might want to take advantage of your wife’s vulnerability under weak Thai laws.

The best I have seen is a guy who died and left provisions that enabled his wife to have a comfortable life, while enabling his daughter to go on to university in the UK and get a real good start in life.

The worst I have seen is a guy dead in the house, and his wife’s relatives swarming over the house like a plague of locust, taking anything and everything they want, his two children helping aunts and uncles load their life choices in the back of pick-up truck.

DO NOT LEAVE THINGS TO CHANCE….. MAKE A WILL.

Nice post with good advice! Cheer.