Govt Willing To Wait On Constitution And Unity Bills, Thaksin Says

[hellodolly]

What amazes me is that all of his Red Shirt supporters who also read and see what he is saying don't... can't...?? see through him...? I don't mean the ones he pays off cause money of course is blinding.... I am talking about the thousands of others that are there, ready to rallye and demonstrate on his behalf ... please don't tell me they are ignorant as even the poorest of poorest in Thailand have TV's and watch the news and all of this is seen / heard by at least 90% of them ... I just can't figure them out ... Are they sooo naive ??? Even my Maeban thinks he is God even though she sees parading around England , Dubai whatever spending a fortune on Louis Vitton bags for his daughter and what not... the lavish parties ... even the sale of his mansion recently ... and yet ... Nope he is still God ... Jeeeezzz what os wrong with these people ??

Lack of education.

[waza]

What amazes me is that all of his Red Shirt supporters who also read and see what he is saying don't... can't...?? see through him...? I don't mean the ones he pays off cause money of course is blinding.... I am talking about the thousands of others that are there, ready to rallye and demonstrate on his behalf ... please don't tell me they are ignorant as even the poorest of poorest in Thailand have TV's and watch the news and all of this is seen / heard by at least 90% of them ... I just can't figure them out ... Are they sooo naive ??? Even my Maeban thinks he is God even though she sees parading around England , Dubai whatever spending a fortune on Louis Vitton bags for his daughter and what not... the lavish parties ... even the sale of his mansion recently ... and yet ... Nope he is still God ... Jeeeezzz what os wrong with these people ??

Lack of education.

Culty of personality

A cult of personality arises when an individual uses mass media, propaganda, or other methods, to create an idealized and heroic public image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise.......A cult of personality is similar to hero worship, except that it is established by mass media and propaganda. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality

[yoshiwara]

"Later this year I might drop by Myanmar, near Chiang Rai, so I can 'U Kam Muang' [speak Northern dialect] around there," Thaksin said, laughing.

Yes, that will be good for a laugh.

[Jingthing]

They might need time to study and adjust their minds

Reeducation camps?

Seriously there is something creepy about the tone of that.

[jerrysteve]

One can cover a PIG in Gold but it is Still a Pig

[waza]

One can cover a PIG in Gold but it is Still a Pig

[Ricardo]

Just asking, but was that satatement made in the USA? If so the Americans are allowing him to engage in political activity, or they don't give a toss.

Very good point, surely he would be expected not to engage in political-activity, as a condition of getting a short-visa for a private visit ?

Yet his judgement on when to button-it, in the interests of discretion, has been questionable in-the-past. Is this yet another example, will the US-government notice and take appropriate action, who knows ?

When looking at that photo of him looking despondent and alone, at the upstairs-restaurant in the Big Apple, I must admit that I even felt a little sorry for him. He made a bad decision several years ago, to remain active in Thai politics and stir up as much shit as he could, and has been paying for it ever since.

Had he followed the normal routine of deposed Thai leaders, and stayed quiet & in the background, surely by now he might have been home again, and happily playing golf with his cronies while remaining free to attend his kids' weddings, resting on his laurels or even (perhaps) taking the common senior-politician route into the Privy Council ?

Instead he's reduced to fulminating to tiny groups of non-resident supporters about constitutions which try to punish political-corruption, running proxy-governments from afar, and ever-conscious of the threat of several more court-cases should he ever return, while living in Dubai. It can't be the future he had hoped-for, back at the end of his glory-days, can it ?

[Noistar]

Is the 'issue/problem' with the 2007 Constitution that the Military Junta penned it after the coup?

If so, they inserted 'Its intention is to make it more difficult for anyone to monopolize power and abuse the public trust.'

Presumably the originators of the 2007 Constitution, might be concerned if one of their key intentions is changed or nullified.

There seems to be a suspicion on TVF (well by some posters anyway), that 'we' wish to carry on where 'we' left off.

Interesting times ahead. When will the 20th Constitution appear, to 'rectify' the current Charter change intentions?

[Noistar]

What amazes me is that all of his Red Shirt supporters who also read and see what he is saying don't... can't...?? see through him...? I don't mean the ones he pays off cause money of course is blinding.... I am talking about the thousands of others that are there, ready to rallye and demonstrate on his behalf ... please don't tell me they are ignorant as even the poorest of poorest in Thailand have TV's and watch the news and all of this is seen / heard by at least 90% of them ... I just can't figure them out ... Are they sooo naive ??? Even my Maeban thinks he is God even though she sees parading around England , Dubai whatever spending a fortune on Louis Vitton bags for his daughter and what not... the lavish parties ... even the sale of his mansion recently ... and yet ... Nope he is still God ... Jeeeezzz what os wrong with these people ??

Lack of education.

I must keep coming back to my point that (IMHO) the people in the North are politically apathetic. Food on the table, decent living, contact with families and they are satisfied with their lot.

A wider view of events isn't sought.

My wife spends her relaxing time channel hopping. I'm not sure how much 'current events' she assimilates from Channels 3, 5 and 7

[tlansford]

What amazes me is that all of his Red Shirt supporters who also read and see what he is saying don't... can't...?? see through him...? I don't mean the ones he pays off cause money of course is blinding.... I am talking about the thousands of others that are there, ready to rallye and demonstrate on his behalf ... please don't tell me they are ignorant as even the poorest of poorest in Thailand have TV's and watch the news and all of this is seen / heard by at least 90% of them ... I just can't figure them out ... Are they sooo naive ??? Even my Maeban thinks he is God even though she sees parading around England , Dubai whatever spending a fortune on Louis Vitton bags for his daughter and what not... the lavish parties ... even the sale of his mansion recently ... and yet ... Nope he is still God ... Jeeeezzz what os wrong with these people ??

Lack of education.

regardless of one's biases, that is patently false, prejudiced statement.

[tlansford]

What amazes me is that all of his Red Shirt supporters who also read and see what he is saying don't... can't...?? see through him...? I don't mean the ones he pays off cause money of course is blinding.... I am talking about the thousands of others that are there, ready to rallye and demonstrate on his behalf ... please don't tell me they are ignorant as even the poorest of poorest in Thailand have TV's and watch the news and all of this is seen / heard by at least 90% of them ... I just can't figure them out ... Are they sooo naive ??? Even my Maeban thinks he is God even though she sees parading around England , Dubai whatever spending a fortune on Louis Vitton bags for his daughter and what not... the lavish parties ... even the sale of his mansion recently ... and yet ... Nope he is still God ... Jeeeezzz what os wrong with these people ??

Lack of education.

I must keep coming back to my point that (IMHO) the people in the North are politically apathetic. Food on the table, decent living, contact with families and they are satisfied with their lot.

A wider view of events isn't sought.

My wife spends her relaxing time channel hopping. I'm not sure how much 'current events' she assimilates from Channels 3, 5 and 7

That describes the vast majority of people in the world....

[Noistar]

What amazes me is that all of his Red Shirt supporters who also read and see what he is saying don't... can't...?? see through him...? I don't mean the ones he pays off cause money of course is blinding.... I am talking about the thousands of others that are there, ready to rallye and demonstrate on his behalf ... please don't tell me they are ignorant as even the poorest of poorest in Thailand have TV's and watch the news and all of this is seen / heard by at least 90% of them ... I just can't figure them out ... Are they sooo naive ??? Even my Maeban thinks he is God even though she sees parading around England , Dubai whatever spending a fortune on Louis Vitton bags for his daughter and what not... the lavish parties ... even the sale of his mansion recently ... and yet ... Nope he is still God ... Jeeeezzz what os wrong with these people ??

Lack of education.

I must keep coming back to my point that (IMHO) the people in the North are politically apathetic. Food on the table, decent living, contact with families and they are satisfied with their lot.

A wider view of events isn't sought.

My wife spends her relaxing time channel hopping. I'm not sure how much 'current events' she assimilates from Channels 3, 5 and 7

That describes the vast majority of people in the world....

No argument there

[hellodolly]

What amazes me is that all of his Red Shirt supporters who also read and see what he is saying don't... can't...?? see through him...? I don't mean the ones he pays off cause money of course is blinding.... I am talking about the thousands of others that are there, ready to rallye and demonstrate on his behalf ... please don't tell me they are ignorant as even the poorest of poorest in Thailand have TV's and watch the news and all of this is seen / heard by at least 90% of them ... I just can't figure them out ... Are they sooo naive ??? Even my Maeban thinks he is God even though she sees parading around England , Dubai whatever spending a fortune on Louis Vitton bags for his daughter and what not... the lavish parties ... even the sale of his mansion recently ... and yet ... Nope he is still God ... Jeeeezzz what os wrong with these people ??

Lack of education.

regardless of one's biases, that is patently false, prejudiced statement.

And your brilliant idea for why they buy crap. Are you saying that they are well educated. If so explain why they had to set up special schools to teach them what democracy was before they shipped them down to Bangkok to invade hospitals and try to burn Bangkok down.

Don't even try that crap that they didn't have guns. Nether did the cooks on the basses supporting the soldiers in Viet Nam Korea Second world war First world war.

Yet they were all in it.

Edited August 13, 2012 by hellodolly

[tlansford]

What amazes me is that all of his Red Shirt supporters who also read and see what he is saying don't... can't...?? see through him...? I don't mean the ones he pays off cause money of course is blinding.... I am talking about the thousands of others that are there, ready to rallye and demonstrate on his behalf ... please don't tell me they are ignorant as even the poorest of poorest in Thailand have TV's and watch the news and all of this is seen / heard by at least 90% of them ... I just can't figure them out ... Are they sooo naive ??? Even my Maeban thinks he is God even though she sees parading around England , Dubai whatever spending a fortune on Louis Vitton bags for his daughter and what not... the lavish parties ... even the sale of his mansion recently ... and yet ... Nope he is still God ... Jeeeezzz what os wrong with these people ??

Lack of education.

regardless of one's biases, that is patently false, prejudiced statement.

And your brilliant idea for why they buy crap. Are you saying that they are well educated. If so explain why they had to set up special schools to teach them what democracy was before they shipped them down to Bangkok to invade hospitals and try to burn Bangkok down.

Don't even try that crap that they didn't have guns. Nether did the cooks on the basses supporting the soldiers in Viet Nam Korea Second world war First world war.

Yet they were all in it.

What I am saying should be perfectly clear : "lack of education" is not only inaccurate, it is not applicable and just a blanket, pejorative statement which indicates your biases regarding UDD members but doesn't seriously address the statements from annabel.

Why people buy into any given dogma has nothing to do with education. It often times also has no real relationship to the self-interests of the people involved, either. It does very often have a lot to do with emotional attachments to their own feelings and conditioning. Look at the way politicians and political groups play on peoples' emotions. The emotions win over reasoning nearly every time - even with well-educated people. This can be true of people on the right and the left, in Thailand and elsewhere.

[OzMick]

What I am saying should be perfectly clear : "lack of education" is not only inaccurate, it is not applicable and just a blanket, pejorative statement which indicates your biases regarding UDD members but doesn't seriously address the statements from annabel.

Why people buy into any given dogma has nothing to do with education. It often times also has no real relationship to the self-interests of the people involved, either. It does very often have a lot to do with emotional attachments to their own feelings and conditioning. Look at the way politicians and political groups play on peoples' emotions. The emotions win over reasoning nearly every time - even with well-educated people. This can be true of people on the right and the left, in Thailand and elsewhere.

When I try to explain to my g'f's family that Thaksin's corruptly obtained mobile phone monopoly was a means for him to steal from every Thai that bought and used a mobile phone, I have to start with the concept of a monopoly, if not a company share. When I try to explain to them that a politician who pays out many multiples of his expected salary to buy votes is likely expecting to get rich from other sources, they have trouble with the math. A bit more education would do them a lot of good, particularly in voting.

[ThaiOats]

What I am saying should be perfectly clear : "lack of education" is not only inaccurate, it is not applicable and just a blanket, pejorative statement which indicates your biases regarding UDD members but doesn't seriously address the statements from annabel.

Why people buy into any given dogma has nothing to do with education. It often times also has no real relationship to the self-interests of the people involved, either. It does very often have a lot to do with emotional attachments to their own feelings and conditioning. Look at the way politicians and political groups play on peoples' emotions. The emotions win over reasoning nearly every time - even with well-educated people. This can be true of people on the right and the left, in Thailand and elsewhere.

You believe that education has no relationship with how people buy into dogma or affect their self-interests (moral principles)? Any studies on that or it's something that you're using to further your reasoning by procuring fallacies? You might prematurely draw that connection of politicians appealing to emotions to win over reasoning and that education doesn't play any role, to that I disagree.

I believe a good education helps build a strong foundation in our ability to reason. This is based on my belief only and I don't expect everyone to agree with me either. By studying history we may learn the mistakes of our predecessors and hope that we don't repeat that mistake on our progressive journey. While I don't necessarily believe that in order to have good morals one needs to take a class in "Ethics and Morals" but I feel that it helps build character and knowledge as those classes will require the students to read books on several of history's role models and villains.

A class worth taking and that people often overlook as it doesn't have any direct access to the job market is Philosophy. I'm convinced that people who have taken this class learn how to analyze information and process them to come up with objective conclusions, after all that's what Philosophers have been trying to do for the past thousands of years. Of course in their quest for answers, this all branches out into the sciences which leads us to the world of today, however screwed it seems to be. With logic, people can catch fallacies and try to construct a valid argument for their reasoning. Education is a window to knowledge of the outside world and without it, people are limited to what the media feeds them.

Given access to skills that help them reason, I believe that we would see less violent and emotional speeches and more intelligent debates. We would need to build a strong foundation in order to have these debates and education plays an important role to dispel the emotional fog that politicians cast. If politicians are all liars working for their self interest, who else do we rely on other than ourselves to make sure we don't get taken advantage of.

Finally, despite what your colors and political bias are, I believe many on this forum hold moral principles to a high standard, otherwise why are we using our time on a this subject? Out of hundreds of thousands in Thailand, why are there only a handful participating? It's because we care and trying to utilize our reasoning make sense of this political fiasco and I truly hope that Thai citizens be more active in politics. It's a bumpy road that must be tread.

Edited August 13, 2012 by ThaiOats

[Noistar]

They might need time to study and adjust their minds

Reeducation camps?

Seriously there is something creepy about the tone of that.

Saw on TV pictures of young children plugged into their new Tablets. Who needs re-education?

Start when they're young.

Anyone know if these tablets can pick up Skype?

[Noistar]

"Just keep the third reading of the Constitution amendment [as it is] until we can think of the best way to create peace in the country and bring about full democracy. Sometimes we want a full democracy right away, but we can't have it. We have to accept just part of it first and let it grow until it’s full," Thaksin said.

So Thaksin equates full democracy in Thailand as achievable only when the charter amendments are finalised. That is Thailand will only be fully democratic when he has amnesty , is reimbursed the confiscated funds and all judicial checks and balances are removed. That sounds democratic.

Possibly Democracy is doing the best for the 'country' whether the people like it or not. Possibly, 'We' won't even ask them to vote again because everything they need (as opposed to want), is already here. Think of the money that will be made available if there were no more elections.

[phiphidon]

With 'we' waiting for the opportunity for Charter change it may be worth quoting from 'Inside Thailand Review, 2009'. This particular section is a very brief summary of the intentions of the 2007 Constitution. Ignoring obsessions re its 'parentage', it is clear that at least part of it's intention was to provide a foundation to move Thailand forward. Using the 1997 Constitution as its source, it sought to strengthen perceived weaknesses.

"The nation’s 18th constitution was promulgated on 24 August 2007. It sought to build on the strengths of the 1997 Constitution, while addressing its many weaknesses. For the first time, the Constitution guaranteed the direct applicability of constitutional rights. Its intention is to make it more difficult for anyone to monopolize power and abuse the public trust. In this way, the Constitution safeguards the interests of the Thai people, who accepted it by a majority vote in a national referendum on Sunday, 19 August 2007. The referendum, the first of its kind in Thai history, went smoothly in all parts of the country."

Possibly the Constitution 'we' are seeking, is not driven by a desire to benefit the country and people of Thailand.

It might have been a good idea if you had pointed out that 'Inside Thailand Review, 2009' was a government publication written during the Abhisit government period. You may also be interested to learn that not only was Abhisit not happy with the Constitution as provided by the militia ( and by way of a referendum which apparently "went smoothly in all parts of the country" - but you've been shown an alternative view to the "fairness" of the referendum several times), He was quite forward in wanting to amend the constitution. ( A section of his address to the FCCT December 2007)

4) (The Nation) What do you think about the undemocratic aspects of the constitution and security laws?

AV: I have pushed for amendments in the past and I wish to remove undemocratic aspects of the new constitution such as half the senate being unelected. I hope the NLA don't pass the security law. My message to the NLA is "take a break".

If they do pass the law, I have four issues to raise including a definition of ""threat to security" (a reference to part of the new law which gives emergency powers to the military at any time of "threat to national security").

The military have learned a lesson, now they know seizing power was the easy part of the job.

http://reallifethail...at-fcct_19.html

He later went on to amend some parts of the Constitition and failed to amend others (amongst which was the Section on cabinet needing to vote before anything can be done that involves a foreign country - a common bond between the two parties to amend this incidentally, it recently brought about the NASA weather plane farce).

So all was / is not as rosy as you front it with regard to the fragrant military junta constitution..................

Edited August 14, 2012 by phiphidon

[tlansford]

What I am saying should be perfectly clear : "lack of education" is not only inaccurate, it is not applicable and just a blanket, pejorative statement which indicates your biases regarding UDD members but doesn't seriously address the statements from annabel.

Why people buy into any given dogma has nothing to do with education. It often times also has no real relationship to the self-interests of the people involved, either. It does very often have a lot to do with emotional attachments to their own feelings and conditioning. Look at the way politicians and political groups play on peoples' emotions. The emotions win over reasoning nearly every time - even with well-educated people. This can be true of people on the right and the left, in Thailand and elsewhere.

You believe that education has no relationship with how people buy into dogma or affect their self-interests (moral principles)? Any studies on that or it's something that you're using to further your reasoning by procuring fallacies? You might prematurely draw that connection of politicians appealing to emotions to win over reasoning and that education doesn't play any role, to that I disagree.

I believe a good education helps build a strong foundation in our ability to reason. This is based on my belief only and I don't expect everyone to agree with me either. By studying history we may learn the mistakes of our predecessors and hope that we don't repeat that mistake on our progressive journey. While I don't necessarily believe that in order to have good morals one needs to take a class in "Ethics and Morals" but I feel that it helps build character and knowledge as those classes will require the students to read books on several of history's role models and villains.

A class worth taking and that people often overlook as it doesn't have any direct access to the job market is Philosophy. I'm convinced that people who have taken this class learn how to analyze information and process them to come up with objective conclusions, after all that's what Philosophers have been trying to do for the past thousands of years. Of course in their quest for answers, this all branches out into the sciences which leads us to the world of today, however screwed it seems to be. With logic, people can catch fallacies and try to construct a valid argument for their reasoning. Education is a window to knowledge of the outside world and without it, people are limited to what the media feeds them.

Given access to skills that help them reason, I believe that we would see less violent and emotional speeches and more intelligent debates. We would need to build a strong foundation in order to have these debates and education plays an important role to dispel the emotional fog that politicians cast. If politicians are all liars working for their self interest, who else do we rely on other than ourselves to make sure we don't get taken advantage of.

Finally, despite what your colors and political bias are, I believe many on this forum hold moral principles to a high standard, otherwise why are we using our time on a this subject? Out of hundreds of thousands in Thailand, why are there only a handful participating? It's because we care and trying to utilize our reasoning make sense of this political fiasco and I truly hope that Thai citizens be more active in politics. It's a bumpy road that must be tread.

no, I do not believe that education has any bearing on people following a particular dogma (left or right) or on moral values. Education that is, in the normal sense of primary, secondary and university education, is, with a few exceptions, about training people to do a job. Period. (I agree with you about philosophy studies, BTW). As for studies, I am not aware of formal studies looking at this topic, but would be happy to find some. Observation at a personal level and a societal level shows that highly educated people often develop a political position which supports politicians acting directly against their own self-interests. A simple example would be that in the USA, no middle class person following a political position in their own interest should support the economic policies of the Republican party and yet millions do exactly that. And many, many of these people are extremely well educated.

Secondly, Hellodolly gratuitously lambasted the UDD members as uneducated. Other people simply state that they are ignorant (unintelligent). Both are clearly gratuitous slurs.

Thirdly, looking at the yellow shirts, their numbers apparently include a greater number of more affluent, and correspondingly educated, people, and this does not prevent them from buying into a political position which is extremely emotional and dogmatic.

I am not sure that all Thai politicians are liars working selfishly in their own self-interest. That could be true, I just don't have any experience on which to base such a statement. There certainly are politicians who are, and Thailand has a history of corruption, which includes politicians, but that doesn't mean necessarily that they all (ie: the vast majority) are corrupt and selfish.

More intelligent debates would be a great thing in Thailand (and other countries). Maybe we'll see more of that. I'm not terribly hopeful, however, ...

[Noistar]

With 'we' waiting for the opportunity for Charter change it may be worth quoting from 'Inside Thailand Review, 2009'. This particular section is a very brief summary of the intentions of the 2007 Constitution. Ignoring obsessions re its 'parentage', it is clear that at least part of it's intention was to provide a foundation to move Thailand forward. Using the 1997 Constitution as its source, it sought to strengthen perceived weaknesses.

"The nation’s 18th constitution was promulgated on 24 August 2007. It sought to build on the strengths of the 1997 Constitution, while addressing its many weaknesses. For the first time, the Constitution guaranteed the direct applicability of constitutional rights. Its intention is to make it more difficult for anyone to monopolize power and abuse the public trust. In this way, the Constitution safeguards the interests of the Thai people, who accepted it by a majority vote in a national referendum on Sunday, 19 August 2007. The referendum, the first of its kind in Thai history, went smoothly in all parts of the country."

Possibly the Constitution 'we' are seeking, is not driven by a desire to benefit the country and people of Thailand.

It might have been a good idea if you had pointed out that 'Inside Thailand Review, 2009' was a government publication written during the Abhisit government period. You may also be interested to learn that not only was Abhisit not happy with the Constitution as provided by the militia ( and by way of a referendum which apparently "went smoothly in all parts of the country" - but you've been shown an alternative view to the "fairness" of the referendum several times), He was quite forward in wanting to amend the constitution. ( A section of his address to the FCCT December 2007)

I do not apologize for the quote. As far as I am aware it is accurate. If you want to bring in any background/opinions it does not negate my post.

The present Constitution seeks to 'make it more difficult for anyone to monopolize power and abuse the public trust. '. Is this not a worthwhile goal on its own? Do you believe the proposed Charter amendments will maintain this?

If not, do you believe the military will sit back and allow a re-run?

Btw I loved one of the points from your link:

"

1) Have there been any kind of deals or agreements between the Democrats and the military?

AV(Abhisit): No. Why would the Dems spend so much money on pre coup elections if they knew what would happen? Why do the PPP/TRT suddenly become so in love with democracy when they have lost power?

"

[ThaiOats]

What I am saying should be perfectly clear : "lack of education" is not only inaccurate, it is not applicable and just a blanket, pejorative statement which indicates your biases regarding UDD members but doesn't seriously address the statements from annabel.

Why people buy into any given dogma has nothing to do with education. It often times also has no real relationship to the self-interests of the people involved, either. It does very often have a lot to do with emotional attachments to their own feelings and conditioning. Look at the way politicians and political groups play on peoples' emotions. The emotions win over reasoning nearly every time - even with well-educated people. This can be true of people on the right and the left, in Thailand and elsewhere.

You believe that education has no relationship with how people buy into dogma or affect their self-interests (moral principles)? Any studies on that or it's something that you're using to further your reasoning by procuring fallacies? You might prematurely draw that connection of politicians appealing to emotions to win over reasoning and that education doesn't play any role, to that I disagree.

I believe a good education helps build a strong foundation in our ability to reason. This is based on my belief only and I don't expect everyone to agree with me either. By studying history we may learn the mistakes of our predecessors and hope that we don't repeat that mistake on our progressive journey. While I don't necessarily believe that in order to have good morals one needs to take a class in "Ethics and Morals" but I feel that it helps build character and knowledge as those classes will require the students to read books on several of history's role models and villains.

A class worth taking and that people often overlook as it doesn't have any direct access to the job market is Philosophy. I'm convinced that people who have taken this class learn how to analyze information and process them to come up with objective conclusions, after all that's what Philosophers have been trying to do for the past thousands of years. Of course in their quest for answers, this all branches out into the sciences which leads us to the world of today, however screwed it seems to be. With logic, people can catch fallacies and try to construct a valid argument for their reasoning. Education is a window to knowledge of the outside world and without it, people are limited to what the media feeds them.

Given access to skills that help them reason, I believe that we would see less violent and emotional speeches and more intelligent debates. We would need to build a strong foundation in order to have these debates and education plays an important role to dispel the emotional fog that politicians cast. If politicians are all liars working for their self interest, who else do we rely on other than ourselves to make sure we don't get taken advantage of.

Finally, despite what your colors and political bias are, I believe many on this forum hold moral principles to a high standard, otherwise why are we using our time on a this subject? Out of hundreds of thousands in Thailand, why are there only a handful participating? It's because we care and trying to utilize our reasoning make sense of this political fiasco and I truly hope that Thai citizens be more active in politics. It's a bumpy road that must be tread.

no, I do not believe that education has any bearing on people following a particular dogma (left or right) or on moral values. Education that is, in the normal sense of primary, secondary and university education, is, with a few exceptions, about training people to do a job. Period. (I agree with you about philosophy studies, BTW). As for studies, I am not aware of formal studies looking at this topic, but would be happy to find some. Observation at a personal level and a societal level shows that highly educated people often develop a political position which supports politicians acting directly against their own self-interests. A simple example would be that in the USA, no middle class person following a political position in their own interest should support the economic policies of the Republican party and yet millions do exactly that. And many, many of these people are extremely well educated.

Secondly, Hellodolly gratuitously lambasted the UDD members as uneducated. Other people simply state that they are ignorant (unintelligent). Both are clearly gratuitous slurs.

Thirdly, looking at the yellow shirts, their numbers apparently include a greater number of more affluent, and correspondingly educated, people, and this does not prevent them from buying into a political position which is extremely emotional and dogmatic.

I am not sure that all Thai politicians are liars working selfishly in their own self-interest. That could be true, I just don't have any experience on which to base such a statement. There certainly are politicians who are, and Thailand has a history of corruption, which includes politicians, but that doesn't mean necessarily that they all (ie: the vast majority) are corrupt and selfish.

More intelligent debates would be a great thing in Thailand (and other countries). Maybe we'll see more of that. I'm not terribly hopeful, however, ...

Once again I find myself disagreeing with you in that education is meant to train people to do a job. I believe that education is meant to prepare people on how to ask and answer questions. This knowledge then becomes tools for us to utilize depending on the individual.

Why do I believe that education is meant to prepare us for asking and answering questions? Without questions, you cant find purpose. It's much more sensible to view it as such because education does not necessarily prepare you to do a job. If education is meant to prepare you to do a job, then a person educated in a specific field would consequently be unable to do a job that he or she wasnt educated in. But we can see that a person who has a master's degree in computer science can be a marketing manager, therefore education is not meant to train us for a job.

On the other hand, without having the knowledge gained through education, we are ill prepared to ask and answer life's questions. Ask a carpenter on the laws of thermodynamics and he might be able to answer you if he has taken the class. Ask a child what is 100 + 12 and he might be able to answer you through mathematics. Ask the same child, what is the purpose of knowing 100+12 and he might be at a loss until he is better educated.

As for well educate politicians taking political sides, recall that I reasoned that education is used to answer and ask questions. I havent studied politics beyond high school a long time ago, so I am at a loss about the reference to the Republicans. I cant intelligently come up with a rebuttal if it deserves one nor can I agree with you. However, I would like to voice my opinion on the matter.

It is plausible that people consider themselves educated because they went through college. However, like me they may not have the tools or knowledge no better than someone who hasnt gone past high school. Then comes the view that since they are better educated they must know more than the average farmer. So they may take it upon themselves to steer politics in their favor because they believe they know more. Asked if I am of this position, I would admit yes. A person who is better educated to answer or ask questions is more prepared to do so than someone who isnt. Some of us might know the atrocities of Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao and we might be of better opinion than someone who doesn't know who they were.

The world is changing where information is much easily accessed. Curious people can now educate themselves so long as they do not have tunnel vision.

Edited August 14, 2012 by ThaiOats

[tlansford]

What I am saying should be perfectly clear : "lack of education" is not only inaccurate, it is not applicable and just a blanket, pejorative statement which indicates your biases regarding UDD members but doesn't seriously address the statements from annabel.

Why people buy into any given dogma has nothing to do with education. It often times also has no real relationship to the self-interests of the people involved, either. It does very often have a lot to do with emotional attachments to their own feelings and conditioning. Look at the way politicians and political groups play on peoples' emotions. The emotions win over reasoning nearly every time - even with well-educated people. This can be true of people on the right and the left, in Thailand and elsewhere.

You believe that education has no relationship with how people buy into dogma or affect their self-interests (moral principles)? Any studies on that or it's something that you're using to further your reasoning by procuring fallacies? You might prematurely draw that connection of politicians appealing to emotions to win over reasoning and that education doesn't play any role, to that I disagree.

I believe a good education helps build a strong foundation in our ability to reason. This is based on my belief only and I don't expect everyone to agree with me either. By studying history we may learn the mistakes of our predecessors and hope that we don't repeat that mistake on our progressive journey. While I don't necessarily believe that in order to have good morals one needs to take a class in "Ethics and Morals" but I feel that it helps build character and knowledge as those classes will require the students to read books on several of history's role models and villains.

A class worth taking and that people often overlook as it doesn't have any direct access to the job market is Philosophy. I'm convinced that people who have taken this class learn how to analyze information and process them to come up with objective conclusions, after all that's what Philosophers have been trying to do for the past thousands of years. Of course in their quest for answers, this all branches out into the sciences which leads us to the world of today, however screwed it seems to be. With logic, people can catch fallacies and try to construct a valid argument for their reasoning. Education is a window to knowledge of the outside world and without it, people are limited to what the media feeds them.

Given access to skills that help them reason, I believe that we would see less violent and emotional speeches and more intelligent debates. We would need to build a strong foundation in order to have these debates and education plays an important role to dispel the emotional fog that politicians cast. If politicians are all liars working for their self interest, who else do we rely on other than ourselves to make sure we don't get taken advantage of.

Finally, despite what your colors and political bias are, I believe many on this forum hold moral principles to a high standard, otherwise why are we using our time on a this subject? Out of hundreds of thousands in Thailand, why are there only a handful participating? It's because we care and trying to utilize our reasoning make sense of this political fiasco and I truly hope that Thai citizens be more active in politics. It's a bumpy road that must be tread.

no, I do not believe that education has any bearing on people following a particular dogma (left or right) or on moral values. Education that is, in the normal sense of primary, secondary and university education, is, with a few exceptions, about training people to do a job. Period. (I agree with you about philosophy studies, BTW). As for studies, I am not aware of formal studies looking at this topic, but would be happy to find some. Observation at a personal level and a societal level shows that highly educated people often develop a political position which supports politicians acting directly against their own self-interests. A simple example would be that in the USA, no middle class person following a political position in their own interest should support the economic policies of the Republican party and yet millions do exactly that. And many, many of these people are extremely well educated.

Secondly, Hellodolly gratuitously lambasted the UDD members as uneducated. Other people simply state that they are ignorant (unintelligent). Both are clearly gratuitous slurs.

Thirdly, looking at the yellow shirts, their numbers apparently include a greater number of more affluent, and correspondingly educated, people, and this does not prevent them from buying into a political position which is extremely emotional and dogmatic.

I am not sure that all Thai politicians are liars working selfishly in their own self-interest. That could be true, I just don't have any experience on which to base such a statement. There certainly are politicians who are, and Thailand has a history of corruption, which includes politicians, but that doesn't mean necessarily that they all (ie: the vast majority) are corrupt and selfish.

More intelligent debates would be a great thing in Thailand (and other countries). Maybe we'll see more of that. I'm not terribly hopeful, however, ...

Once again I find myself disagreeing with you in that education is meant to train people to do a job. I believe that education is meant to prepare people on how to ask and answer questions. This knowledge then becomes tools for us to utilize depending on the individual.

Why do I believe that education is meant to prepare us for asking and answering questions? Without questions, you cant find purpose. It's much more sensible to view it as such because education does not necessarily prepare you to do a job. If education is meant to prepare you to do a job, then a person educated in a specific field would consequently be unable to do a job that he or she wasnt educated in. But we can see that a person who has a master's degree in computer science can be a marketing manager, therefore education is not meant to train us for a job.

On the other hand, without having the knowledge gained through education, we are ill prepared to ask and answer life's questions. Ask a carpenter on the laws of thermodynamics and he might be able to answer you if he has taken the class. Ask a child what is 100 + 12 and he might be able to answer you through mathematics. Ask the same child, what is the purpose of knowing 100+12 and he might be at a loss until he is better educated.

As for well educate politicians taking political sides, recall that I reasoned that education is used to answer and ask questions. I havent studied politics beyond high school a long time ago, so I am at a loss about the reference to the Republicans. I cant intelligently come up with a rebuttal if it deserves one nor can I agree with you. However, I would like to voice my opinion on the matter.

It is plausible that people consider themselves educated because they went through college. However, like me they may not have the tools or knowledge no better than someone who hasnt gone past high school. Then comes the view that since they are better educated they must know more than the average farmer. So they may take it upon themselves to steer politics in their favor because they believe they know more. Asked if I am of this position, I would admit yes. A person who is better educated to answer or ask questions is more prepared to do so than someone who isnt. Some of us might know the atrocities of Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao and we might be of better opinion than someone who doesn't know who they were.

The world is changing where information is much easily accessed. Curious people can now educate themselves so long as they do not have tunnel vision.

This would be faster in person Let me answer one at a time.

Education, ... a couple of points here. First, it is pretty clear that the purpose of education since the industrial revolution began has been and continues to be to train people in the skills needed by the employers. It is not generally designed to create the renaissance man. And while some people may gain practice in asking questions or solving problems through their education, IMO, people without a formal, let's say, University education, can still ask questions, probe the answers and understand if they are getting the truth or not. I've seen the inverse as well, so no, I firmly don't believe that one leads to the other. To be concrete, a degree in architecture will not IMO make you less susceptible to propaganda.

I agree with you that it does depend on the individual as to how they use the intelligence which they have been given.

I don't think that your point about a carpenter and the laws of thermodynamics is relevant to propaganda. Being a physicist makes you a physicist, but it doesn't make you more intelligent or immunize you to propaganda more than being a carpenter.

And I talked about well-educated people (not politicians) taking political positions with are exactly opposed to their own self-interests. The point about the Republicans was simply that the Republican policies are bad policies for the middle class, yet there are millions of middle class voters who buy into the Republican propaganda - and well-educated people among them.

If I could boil it down to one contrast, I think there is "book-smart" and "people smart". The former being educated people, and the latter having what has been labeled emotional intelligence. Obviously someone can possess both, one, the other, or neither.

IMO being "people smart" is more important in not being fooled by propaganda.

And yes, the world in changing in that we have access to much more information and more different information sources than ever before. But so many people (regardless of their education) do not use this resource.

Last but not least, to Hellodolly's comment again, to say that "those people over there, ... they are all uneducated (or ignorant, stupid, pick your pejorative adjective) is a way to dismiss the group en masse without taking the time to understand that some of the people may not be fooled and may have legitimate reasons for supporting a particular cause or movement. This can apply equally well to the PAD as the UDD. It can apply equally well to groups with whom you do or do not agree in your own country.

[Noistar]

Is Thailand not better off splitting into 2?

The People's Republic of Thailand in the North with the remainder in the South.

That geographic split seems to mimic the Korean and former Vietnam situation.

I realise the 'invasion' started early.

That would provide the PTP with their Democratic country, but unfortunately cut them off from the money source in the South.

Never mind, you can't have everything - such is life.

[Ricardo]

Is Thailand not better off splitting into 2?

The People's Republic of Thailand in the North with the remainder in the South.

That geographic split seems to mimic the Korean and former Vietnam situation.

I realise the 'invasion' started early.

That would provide the PTP with their Democratic country, but unfortunately cut them off from the money source in the South.

Never mind, you can't have everything - such is life.

Perhaps the rich/influential/elite families in the North might contribute a little tax, although history suggests they mightn't be too keen, and there would remain the question of where to draw the line through Bangkok.

[Nickymaster]

What I am saying should be perfectly clear : "lack of education" is not only inaccurate, it is not applicable and just a blanket, pejorative statement which indicates your biases regarding UDD members but doesn't seriously address the statements from annabel.

Why people buy into any given dogma has nothing to do with education. It often times also has no real relationship to the self-interests of the people involved, either. It does very often have a lot to do with emotional attachments to their own feelings and conditioning. Look at the way politicians and political groups play on peoples' emotions. The emotions win over reasoning nearly every time - even with well-educated people. This can be true of people on the right and the left, in Thailand and elsewhere.

You believe that education has no relationship with how people buy into dogma or affect their self-interests (moral principles)? Any studies on that or it's something that you're using to further your reasoning by procuring fallacies? You might prematurely draw that connection of politicians appealing to emotions to win over reasoning and that education doesn't play any role, to that I disagree.

I believe a good education helps build a strong foundation in our ability to reason. This is based on my belief only and I don't expect everyone to agree with me either. By studying history we may learn the mistakes of our predecessors and hope that we don't repeat that mistake on our progressive journey. While I don't necessarily believe that in order to have good morals one needs to take a class in "Ethics and Morals" but I feel that it helps build character and knowledge as those classes will require the students to read books on several of history's role models and villains.

A class worth taking and that people often overlook as it doesn't have any direct access to the job market is Philosophy. I'm convinced that people who have taken this class learn how to analyze information and process them to come up with objective conclusions, after all that's what Philosophers have been trying to do for the past thousands of years. Of course in their quest for answers, this all branches out into the sciences which leads us to the world of today, however screwed it seems to be. With logic, people can catch fallacies and try to construct a valid argument for their reasoning. Education is a window to knowledge of the outside world and without it, people are limited to what the media feeds them.

Given access to skills that help them reason, I believe that we would see less violent and emotional speeches and more intelligent debates. We would need to build a strong foundation in order to have these debates and education plays an important role to dispel the emotional fog that politicians cast. If politicians are all liars working for their self interest, who else do we rely on other than ourselves to make sure we don't get taken advantage of.

Finally, despite what your colors and political bias are, I believe many on this forum hold moral principles to a high standard, otherwise why are we using our time on a this subject? Out of hundreds of thousands in Thailand, why are there only a handful participating? It's because we care and trying to utilize our reasoning make sense of this political fiasco and I truly hope that Thai citizens be more active in politics. It's a bumpy road that must be tread.

no, I do not believe that education has any bearing on people following a particular dogma (left or right) or on moral values. Education that is, in the normal sense of primary, secondary and university education, is, with a few exceptions, about training people to do a job. Period. (I agree with you about philosophy studies, BTW). As for studies, I am not aware of formal studies looking at this topic, but would be happy to find some. Observation at a personal level and a societal level shows that highly educated people often develop a political position which supports politicians acting directly against their own self-interests. A simple example would be that in the USA, no middle class person following a political position in their own interest should support the economic policies of the Republican party and yet millions do exactly that. And many, many of these people are extremely well educated.

Secondly, Hellodolly gratuitously lambasted the UDD members as uneducated. Other people simply state that they are ignorant (unintelligent). Both are clearly gratuitous slurs.

Thirdly, looking at the yellow shirts, their numbers apparently include a greater number of more affluent, and correspondingly educated, people, and this does not prevent them from buying into a political position which is extremely emotional and dogmatic.

I am not sure that all Thai politicians are liars working selfishly in their own self-interest. That could be true, I just don't have any experience on which to base such a statement. There certainly are politicians who are, and Thailand has a history of corruption, which includes politicians, but that doesn't mean necessarily that they all (ie: the vast majority) are corrupt and selfish.

More intelligent debates would be a great thing in Thailand (and other countries). Maybe we'll see more of that. I'm not terribly hopeful, however, ...

Once again I find myself disagreeing with you in that education is meant to train people to do a job. I believe that education is meant to prepare people on how to ask and answer questions. This knowledge then becomes tools for us to utilize depending on the individual.

Why do I believe that education is meant to prepare us for asking and answering questions? Without questions, you cant find purpose. It's much more sensible to view it as such because education does not necessarily prepare you to do a job. If education is meant to prepare you to do a job, then a person educated in a specific field would consequently be unable to do a job that he or she wasnt educated in. But we can see that a person who has a master's degree in computer science can be a marketing manager, therefore education is not meant to train us for a job.

On the other hand, without having the knowledge gained through education, we are ill prepared to ask and answer life's questions. Ask a carpenter on the laws of thermodynamics and he might be able to answer you if he has taken the class. Ask a child what is 100 + 12 and he might be able to answer you through mathematics. Ask the same child, what is the purpose of knowing 100+12 and he might be at a loss until he is better educated.

As for well educate politicians taking political sides, recall that I reasoned that education is used to answer and ask questions. I havent studied politics beyond high school a long time ago, so I am at a loss about the reference to the Republicans. I cant intelligently come up with a rebuttal if it deserves one nor can I agree with you. However, I would like to voice my opinion on the matter.

It is plausible that people consider themselves educated because they went through college. However, like me they may not have the tools or knowledge no better than someone who hasnt gone past high school. Then comes the view that since they are better educated they must know more than the average farmer. So they may take it upon themselves to steer politics in their favor because they believe they know more. Asked if I am of this position, I would admit yes. A person who is better educated to answer or ask questions is more prepared to do so than someone who isnt. Some of us might know the atrocities of Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao and we might be of better opinion than someone who doesn't know who they were.

The world is changing where information is much easily accessed. Curious people can now educate themselves so long as they do not have tunnel vision.

You believe that education has no relationship with how people buy into dogma or affect their self-interests (moral principles)?

Where I come from, the first 12 years of education is fairly the same for everybody, then you will start to concentrate your studies on the direction you want to go ie accountant, police-officer etc. So basically the first 12 years you get "general" education to become a more "educated" person to make uh...better judgments.

If anybody believes that education is just learning a profession in order to do a task that can give you some sort of income, he might prefer communism.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Nickymaster

[Noistar]

You believe that education has no relationship with how people buy into dogma or affect their self-interests (moral principles)?

Where I come from, the first 12 years of education is fairly the same for everybody, then you will start to concentrate your studies on the direction you want to go ie accountant, police-officer etc. So basically the first 12 years you get "general" education to become a more "educated" person to make uh...better judgments.

If anybody believes that education is just learning a profession in order to do a task that can give you some sort of income, he might prefer communism.

Excuse me trimming the post.

Speaking about education in Britain, and I've seen an element of a similar philosophy in Thailand. When you consider the broad subject matter in certainly the early years of education, it is difficult to see that it is career-driven.

Subjects such as Religion, Literature are unlikely to have a major career emphasis for the majority of students.

It is the later years of education when subjects are selected with a career in mind.

So by the time the initial years of education are complete, students should have a broad knowledge and appreciation at a non-career level.

Mind you, if 12 years of learning English results in a significant number of Chiang Mai university students not having any grasp of the language, perhaps theory doesn't actually reflect reality!

[Ricardo]

The quote above is attributed to me in error, but was actually made by Nickymaster, no biggie, easily done.

[Noistar]

The quote above is attributed to me in error, but was actually made by Nickymaster, no biggie, easily done.

Oops!

No excuses, my editing skills obviously went astray!

Apologies to Ricardo and Nickymaster.

Now off to the dog-house