Thai Gay Activist Natee Refused Same Sex Marriage Registration, Complains About It

[Jingthing]

I was wondering about the current status of the same sex marriage issue in Thailand and found these items:

In September 2011, the National Human Rights Commission of Thailand (a government body) and the Sexual Diversity Network (an NGO) proposed draft legisation on same-sex marriage and were seeking the Thai government's support for the law.

http://en.wikipedia....hts_in_Thailand

Apparently, nothing came of that.

Anyway, this Natee incident is rather hot, recent news:

Mr.Natee, a prominent gay, complained to the NHRCT that he had been refused marriage registration

On 14^th August 2012, Mr. Natee Theerarojanapong, President of the Political Gay Group, submitted a petition to the National Human Rights Commission of Thailand (NHRCT) requesting it to examine a case of discrimination based on sex. The petition was received by Dr. Taejing Siripanich M.D., a National Human Rights Commissioner.

...

Dr. Taejing Siripanich M.D., a National Human Rights Commissioner, said that this petition would be taken for examination to what kind of violation the case was. If it was a case that a law is against human rights, NHRCT could present the case together with its views to the Constitution Court. This case would be considered as a public matter, not a personal matter, because it could benefit other groups, such as lesbian groups. In human rights point of view, a decision to live together should be allowed by law whatever sex the persons had. This petition was the first time for marriage registration between persons of the same sex and therefore would be a good example when a decision was made (by the Constitution Court).

http://www.nhrc.or.t...t_id=1&type=hot

While there is no doubt Mr. Natee is a controversial figure in Thailand, in and out of the gay population of Thailand, it sure is very interesting, indeed remarkable how often the name of the ONE MAN, this one gay activist man, comes up again and again in respect to gay civil rights issues in Thailand.

None of us knows whether Mr. Natee's actions will actually result in legal change in Thailand in regard to same sex marriage. But it might.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

Surprised, and gratified, to see that the NHRC takes the case so seriously. I would have expected them to dismiss it with the comment that same sex marriage is not allowed by Thai law. Good luck to Mr Natee!

[Jingthing]

Yes, well it seems obvious they take it seriously because in 2011 if Wiki is to be believed (?) they approached the "Thai government" (whatever that means) for support for same sex marriage legislation. Does anyone know the details about exactly what happened or didn't happen in response to that request?

As is the case in a number of countries, efforts at changing gay civil rights laws occur on different fronts. Here is a case of apparently a legislative front and ALSO a constitutional court front. I make no pretenses of understanding the technicalities of what would work best/fastest in the Thai context.

However, I was indeed really surprised that Natee did this and that at least there is an effort to elevate the issue and elevate it very high indeed.

[LeCharivari]

Surprised, and gratified, to see that the NHRC takes the case so seriously. I would have expected them to dismiss it with the comment that same sex marriage is not allowed by Thai law. Good luck to Mr Natee!

IB, the NHRC raised the question of same-sex marriage at the Asia Pacific Forum in September last year and then presented it to the Administrative Court, as the Constitution (last passed in 2007) does not actually specify that marriage can only be between a man and a woman although the law (passed in 1990) does, possibly making the law in breach of the Constitution. The Administrative Court has yet to respond.

The latest case, IF it's approved and passed on, questions whether or not the Constitution needs to be amended and would consequently go to the Constitutional Court.

The problem is that the NHRC is a toothless dragon, even though its a government agency, as it can only make recommendations and applications and cannot actually do anything.

[Jingthing]

Hmm. Well, better a toothless dragon that no dragon at all. Clearly same sex marriage equality is not the burning urgent issue in Thailand that it has become in many other countries. As I've said before, it's up to the Thai gay people to push for this harder if that's what they want to do, and not to bother if they don't care enough. The Thai trans leaders appear to have focused on the ability to change sex on IDs as a clear primary issue. I am not feeling such clarity or focus from Thai gays. Natee does what he does but how much support does he actually have among Thai gays? I'm asking. I don't know. A change would impact some expats as well of course, particularly potentially over immigration matters.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

It's more that "same-sex equality" in general isn't such a burning issue in Thailand - mainly because, apart from marriage which confers limited advantages domestically which is why many Thais don't bother with it, Thais in general have little in the way of formal protection under the law and those protections which do exist, such as rights to severance pay, already apply regardless of gender.

It's also not so much that any united Thai LGBT activist movement is making efforts on different fronts, but that different individuals are trying different methods with varying amounts of validity and self-interest. There really is no Thai "movement", just the same three individuals and their "foundations", plus a few even less well known others and their "groups" - mention the names Natee Theerarojanapong, Anjana Suvanananda or Paisarn Likhitpreechakul or their respective Foundations/Groups and most Thai LGBT won't have any idea who you're talking about (and less interest), except in the case of some better informed transsexuals who credit Anjana with ending the military labelling of transexual conscripts as having a mental disorder - something Paisarn claims sole credit for, as he claims sole credit for being behind the application the NHRC made to the Administrative Court last year.

Anyone who thinks that this forum is a poor advertisement for LGBTs or that gays never indulge in pissing contests need look no further than these three!

I think that, given time, same-sex marriage will be legislated for in Thailand but it will probably be more as a result of some politician looking for something to distract attention from something else he's doing than anything these three get up to (just my view!).

[Ijustwannateach]

It was just a few years ago that Natee was commenting on the lack of homosexuality in Lanna culture, even though he himself is not really PART of Lanna culture, according to more informed friends of mine.

He's a cynical opportunist and attention-seeker.

[Jingthing]

It was just a few years ago that Natee was commenting on the lack of homosexuality in Lanna culture, even though he himself is not really PART of Lanna culture, according to more informed friends of mine.

He's a cynical opportunist and attention-seeker.

Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. As I said in the OP he's done some things lots of people don't agree with. But if it turns out that he plays a role in bringing gay civil rights issues forward in Thailand as one of the various things he does in his life, I for one, would say Bravo no matter what the imperfectly human motives. And frankly, not one of us knows what goes on in his thought processes, perhaps himself included. Edited August 25, 2012 by Jingthing

[Ijustwannateach]

Sorry, JT, on this one I think you really are kissing the feet of clay. I'm sure he doesn't mind, though.

[Jingthing]

Sorry, JT, on this one I think you really are kissing the feet of clay. I'm sure he doesn't mind, though.

Understood. But who else has the Thai gay civil rights movement got? So someone who has shown some obvious flaws may be better than nothing. Or maybe not. History will tell.

Also, I think it may be a happy day when we start to see some OTHER names associated with gay rights activism in Thailand.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

It was just a few years ago that Natee was commenting on the lack of homosexuality in Lanna culture, even though he himself is not really PART of Lanna culture, according to more informed friends of mine.

He's a cynical opportunist and attention-seeker.

Well, his family are from Northern Thailand so your friends may be being a little unfair, but I certainly agree with your last point.

... I think it may be a happy day when we start to see some OTHER names associated with gay rights activism in Thailand.

There is no shortage of others, in plenty of different Groups and Foundations, but the main problem is that they all tend to get overshadowed by the considerably more vocal and rather more photogenic transgenders who have different priorities.

On top of that most of the previously more respected and better known activists are now politically polarised, such as Dr Seri Wongmontha who had probably been the most highly respected Thai "gay activist" but was a leader of the "MulitColour Shirts" who were strongly pro-Abhisit and anti-UDD and Yingluck, so anything he's associated with is unlikely to be given much attention at the moment.

[LeCharivari]

It was just a few years ago that Natee was commenting on the lack of homosexuality in Lanna culture ....

What Natee actually did was petition the Chiang Mai governor to get the first Chiang Mai Pride parade cancelled in 2008, arguing that it undermined the city's dignity and cultural heritage, when it was held jointly with the third ILGA-Asia conference (to which, coincidentally, Natee was not invited). His petition was rejected and both the parade and the conference were held without any incident and were reported as a success.

The following year he again tried to get the Pride parade banned and his petition was again rejected, but the parade was finally disrupted and ended violently by a small number of Rak Chiang Mai 51 counter-protesters (variously estimated to be between 100 and 200). Many believe (rightly or wrongly) that it was Natee who was responsible (directly or indirectly) for the violent end to the parade in 2009 and many more see his protests as being not only hypocritical since he had previously taken a prominent part in a very "commercial" Bangkok Pride parade but very prejudiced against certain LGBTs - in a televised TV debate with the Pride organiser (Pongchorn Chanluen) he protested about the presence of transgenders/katoeys in the parade:

"Since the parade will stage a costume contest by transgenders and the parade will have transgendered marchers in colorful dress, I'm afraid such images will appeal to the youngsters and make them want to become transgenders .... any country who has a lot of beauty queens, youths will be also encouraged to become beauty queens .... A youngster aged as young as 15 years old lacks consciousness. Such contests will encourage him to want to imitate and become transgender"

He then tried to get a hotel (the Lavendar Lanna Hotel) banned from advertising itself as "gay" because of its important "cultural" location on a corner of the moat, then to ban a gay bar (Power Boy) from advertising with a large billboard in the same location for the same reason.

At the first ILGA-Asia conference in 2005 in Bangkok (to which he had also coincidentally not been invited) he protested when condoms were handed out by the organisers to representatives from the 20 participating countries, as he later protested about condoms being handed out at the Chiang Mai Pride because he said they promoted promiscuity (even though he himself had been an activist for those with HIV twenty years before).

In 2008 he petitioned the Medical Council and the government to ban male teenagers under 18 from being castrated (prior to GRS, to prevent hormonal change) even with the required parental consent and he openly supported Phra Maha Wuhijaya Vajiramedhi in Chiang Mai and the banning of openly gay and effeminate monks from the monkhood.

In 2010, in contrast, he successfully appealed to the Chiang Mai Administrative Court to allow katoeys to take part in the Yi Peng/Loy Kratong parade on official floats, overturning a recent ban by the Chiang Mai municipality.

He also, inevitably, claims to have started and led the campaign against the mis-labelling of transexuals in the military.

Whatever his motives I simply cannot, under any circumstances, support anything that Natee does and, in my view, with friends like this you don't need enemies.

[isanbirder]

It's not so much WHO as WHAT, LeC. If (hoping for the moon!) Natee's action leads to legal recognition of same-sex couples, I don't think we need worry who achieved it. Granted, he would probably become intolerable... but that's not the point.

[Jingthing]

Yes the sum total of Natee's political actions don't make logical sense and there is a lot not to like, but if someone in the public eye does something good, I think it isn't a problem to selectively praise that. For example, G.W. Bush did a lot of good for the fight against HIV in Africa. No problem acknowledging that.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

It's not so much WHO as WHAT, LeC. If (hoping for the moon!) Natee's action leads to legal recognition of same-sex couples, I don't think we need worry who achieved it. Granted, he would probably become intolerable... but that's not the point.

IF it does, I'd agree with you - but the problem is that he has so alienated all the other assorted LGBT groups that none are likely to support him in this even if they agree with him over this particular issue. IF it happens we'll never know where praise is genuinely due anyway, as they'll all be so busy claiming responsibility and stabbing each other in the back.

JT, I've got no problem acknowledging those who contribute to progress, when its due, but that doesn't mean I have to praise them!

[endure]

He then tried to get a hotel (the Lavendar Lanna Hotel) banned from advertising itself as "gay" because of its important "cultural" location on a corner of the moat, then to ban a gay bar (Power Boy) from advertising with a large billboard in the same location for the same reason.

That would be the culturally significant Sri Tokyo hotel (a first class dump) before it became the Lavendar Lanna - just next door to the culturally significant Chiang Mai Ram hospital.

[LeCharivari]

IF it happens we'll never know where praise is genuinely due anyway, as they'll all be so busy claiming responsibility and stabbing each other in the back.

What I should have said, which is much more worrying in hindsight, is that if it DOESN'T happen the problem is that we'll never know if it was because everyone was already stabbing Natee in the back (since he's now annoyed even the anti-gay supporters he had somehow attracted) or because it was just not meant to be ..... ho hum .....

[endure]

Completely off topic but if you stay in a room overlooking the road junction at the Sri Tokyo you can see an exquisite little garden in the front of a house which can't be seen from ground level.

[xenophanes]

I support gay marriage

Edited September 15, 2012 by xenophanes