I Updated My Wheels To 17'' From 15'', I'M Feeling That My Brakes Are Not As Efficient As Before

[thailoht]

A single kilo on the wheels will have a huge impact on braking. A passenger sitting in the car is not the same as a wheel with direct contact on the ground.

I found a few "tutorials" on that on french forums (yes i'm french). They also experienced the same issues as me while upgrading because the new stuff was heavier.

I contacted EBC brakes and they told me to upgrade yellow stuff and green stuff on my actual rotors and i should be fine. They can ship the pads from Bangkok for 200 baht extra, total cost is something like 6000 baht.

Better be safe than sorry later for just 6000 baht.

I really feel a difference in the braking system, maybe is just too old as i drive sportively, 14 000 km, 2yrs old brake pads (yes i don't use my car too much).

Prost !

Being from across the pond there's a lost of translation here (so don't laugh...): What does Prost and Meh mean? What is Green and Yellow stuff (on the rotors)?

[thailoht]

Are most 'alloy wheels' due to design still heavier than a steel equivilent except high price race wheels ?

There is no way of saying one way or the other with any certainty. If the wheels have a more complicated style / appearance that is meant to look good instead of being focused on performance, they very well could be heavier than a simple pressed steel wheel that is two inches smaller overall diameter.

Taking your bathroom scale along when you go to the tire store might get you some funny looks, but it is the best way to ensure that your new wheels or tires are same or lighter than original.

All alloy wheel weights are stamped in the back of the wheel so leave the bathroom scale at home which is at best only half accurate as the weight of the wheel can't sit properly centered on a bathroom scale given the pick up points for the scale are outside the center and just get one steel wheel weighed to compare with.. A pretty good rule is to use common sense, if there appears to be big areas of alloy making up the design the wheel is probably not going to be lighter if uprated sizing, but if you like them who cares? I'm guessing you're not racing on them. Anyway it's been real and it's been fun, but not real fun, got important things to do, carry on..

You know? I stupidly overlooked this thought, Jahon you're in Bangkok yes? PM me and though I'm very busy these days I'll see if we can meet up in the next day or so if that suits you, actually tomorrow would work with a bit of notice and I'll have a look at your car and if you trust me we'll give it a quick test drive if necessary? I'll not need to drive it much if an obvious issue exists, I'll diagnose it..

That is really thoughtful of you!

[thailoht]

Johan, I don't see the technical possibility for brake issues when switching from 15 to 17 on a passenger car. The brake system has plenty to spare. Upto 5% diameter difference doesn't cause problems as rule of thumb. The 1010 website disclaimer for 3% is a USA website hence its low % variation disclaimer. Pick up trucks going from 15 to 20 inch is a non-comparable issue, since these vehicles are NOT made for great stopping and steering so any change will affect the handling on pick ups and its difficult to make it worse.

For your car I see only few variables of which you yourself indicated already one which is "feel" another is Warpie's indication on more tread on the road which also is feel related.

To me it sounds like a pad or disc problem, not related to your new tire /wheel combo but maybe related to the install of the wheels. Did they open up your brakes? Anyway, don't worry about the new wheels. have your brakes checked at a serious place and get some new pads. let us know how it goes.

Transam, bigger wheels are heavier assuming the original ones where alu also. Tire weight doesn't change much and if anything will be heavier too since most of the weight is underneath the tread.

drive safe....

Yes, spot on and Honda's brakes are usually outstanding and would have no issue compensating.

All very good learning points to be gained from this thread!

[WarpSpeed]

Somehow I missed 2 previous posts and basically repeated verbatim what they said regarding brakes and the new pads especially Hak's post but anyways better to be redundant then not cover it at all..

On a bit of a side note and off topic I hope the OP & mods will indulge me.

T/A you mentioned having vertigo? I had a pretty serious on track accident at speed in Daytona several years ago, semi head on with the wall, due to a mechanical failure and it rang my bell pretty massively and honestly almost killed me. I had vertigo for several months thereafter and still get bouts occasionally and it sucks to be sure. My doctors couldn't find any cause initially but eventually recommended a treatment to try at home so why not? It worked and it was due to calcium crystals that had collected in my inner ear over time that got displaced when I impacted the wall and put pressure on nerves in the inner ear.

Here's a link to a website with a simple at home treatment, give it a try, nothing to loose except that nasty vertigo feeling and everything to gain.. Good luck hope it helps out, vertigo sucks!

http://women.webmd.c...r-vertigo-works

Disregard the "women" notation in the link this is for real info not a jab in any way...

Mine is because of Psiratic Arthritis affecting the bones in my middle ear , had to sell my boat cos of sea sickness caused by this shit. BUT, suppose at my age must be happy l am still here with great memories.

Well don't know if you've tried this treatment or not but give it go, it works with all sorts of vertigo related issues.. It is a Yankee treatment though so don't know if it'll work on you lot or not?? Or whether or not you'd even want to give it a go? You know, Brit pride and all that?? Edited August 28, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

A single kilo on the wheels will have a huge impact on braking. A passenger sitting in the car is not the same as a wheel with direct contact on the ground.

I found a few "tutorials" on that on french forums (yes i'm french). They also experienced the same issues as me while upgrading because the new stuff was heavier.

I contacted EBC brakes and they told me to upgrade yellow stuff and green stuff on my actual rotors and i should be fine. They can ship the pads from Bangkok for 200 baht extra, total cost is something like 6000 baht.

Better be safe than sorry later for just 6000 baht.

I really feel a difference in the braking system, maybe is just too old as i drive sportively, 14 000 km, 2yrs old brake pads (yes i don't use my car too much).

Prost !

Being from across the pond there's a lost of translation here (so don't laugh...): What does Prost and Meh mean? What is Green and Yellow stuff (on the rotors)?

Yeah the "Prost" thing threw me too, I could only think of Alain Prost and couldn't see the connection, meh is meant as a *sigh*...

[sotsira]

JohanBKK,

First thing i would have done if i thought the wheel & tyre upgrade was the cause of brake fade

would be to refit the original wheels & tyres and see whether the brakes feel any different or not.

Instead of spending a fortune on a brake system upgrade, could even be cheaper to fit another set of tyres to your

new rims bringing the dimensions closer, if indeed that is the cause.

[transam]

Good topic, lets open it up. Wheels, ferrous or non ferrous metals used.

5 main types that have a VAST difference in weight.

Pressed steel.

Cast Alloy.

Forged Alloy.

Billet Alloy.

Magnesium.

[WarpSpeed]

Good topic, lets open it up. Wheels, ferrous or non ferrous metals used.

5 main types that have a VAST difference in weight.

Pressed steel.

Cast Alloy.

Forged Alloy.

Billet Alloy.

Magnesium.

Meh! I thought you had vertigo? Now I'm beginning to relapse myself ......

[kartman]

^Agreed.................................................On a race track....................................

On bumpy......melted........destroyed by overloaded truck roads it will mean the dampers (which we don't know the condition of) would have more of a job to control the bump/rebound of the heavier wheel and tyre. Especially under hard braking with weight transferred to the front wheels. Contact patch would be more settled on a smooth track. Although yes harder driving on the track would make it more important, but the OP says he drives fast.

Yes but were not talking lost surface contact do to worn struts/dampers he also mentions his car being relatively new..Read unlikely a strut/damper issue..While it does exist it's really a non issue.. As T/A said earlier what if the car has five people and their luggage? Would that weigh more then an extra 3k you suppose? Honda accounted for that I think?

According to the picture in first car thread at least 6 years old.

[transam]

Good topic, lets open it up. Wheels, ferrous or non ferrous metals used.

5 main types that have a VAST difference in weight.

Pressed steel.

Cast Alloy.

Forged Alloy.

Billet Alloy.

Magnesium.

Meh! I thought you had vertigo? Now I'm beginning to relapse myself ......

Lets be constructive, oh wise one.

[WarpSpeed]

Are most 'alloy wheels' due to design still heavier than a steel equivilent except high price race wheels ?

There is no way of saying one way or the other with any certainty. If the wheels have a more complicated style / appearance that is meant to look good instead of being focused on performance, they very well could be heavier than a simple pressed steel wheel that is two inches smaller overall diameter.

Taking your bathroom scale along when you go to the tire store might get you some funny looks, but it is the best way to ensure that your new wheels or tires are same or lighter than original.

All alloy wheel weights are stamped in the back of the wheel so leave the bathroom scale at home which is at best only half accurate as the weight of the wheel can't sit properly centered on a bathroom scale given the pick up points for the scale are outside the center and just get one steel wheel weighed to compare with.. A pretty good rule is to use common sense, if there appears to be big areas of alloy making up the design the wheel is probably not going to be lighter if uprated sizing, but if you like them who cares? I'm guessing you're not racing on them. Anyway it's been real and it's been fun, but not real fun, got important things to do, carry on..

You know? I stupidly overlooked this thought, Jahon you're in Bangkok yes? PM me and though I'm very busy these days I'll see if we can meet up in the next day or so if that suits you, actually tomorrow would work with a bit of notice and I'll have a look at your car and if you trust me we'll give it a quick test drive if necessary? I'll not need to drive it much if an obvious issue exists, I'll diagnose it..

That is really thoughtful of you!

I'm good like that with lost souls, I even take in an occasional soi kitty ... Counting T/A up to 4 now,

[arthurwait]

^Agreed.................................................On a race track....................................

On bumpy......melted........destroyed by overloaded truck roads it will mean the dampers (which we don't know the condition of) would have more of a job to control the bump/rebound of the heavier wheel and tyre. Especially under hard braking with weight transferred to the front wheels. Contact patch would be more settled on a smooth track. Although yes harder driving on the track would make it more important, but the OP says he drives fast.

Yes but were not talking lost surface contact do to worn struts/dampers he also mentions his car being relatively new..Read unlikely a strut/damper issue..While it does exist it's really a non issue.. As T/A said earlier what if the car has five people and their luggage? Would that weigh more then an extra 3k you suppose? Honda accounted for that I think?

Yes of course Honda would have accounted for 3 kg but we aren't talking about failure limits just a slight decrease in braking performance.

It's not about the 3 extra kilos as such it's the percentage increase in wheel/tyre weight, in rotating inertia and to a lesser extend in bump force. Nothing to do with sprung weight except of course weight transfer as always increasing the load on the front wheels under braking.. Of course 3 or 12 extra kilos of that won't make a difference, but that isn't the main issue. Rotating inertia of the wheel being that and if improved braking is needed to control that.

Increase the wheel/tyre weight by (without checking back on the weight) 15-20% then rotating inertia and bump force is higher. Plus the lower profile tyre as many have said will also most likely be stiffer. All taking place on Thailands bumpy roads and a decrease in braking performance might be noticeable due to one or any number of those theories.

A seventh generation is 5 to 9 years old ?

Anyway it looks like Johan has made a decision and I look forward to hopefully hearing the results if we haven't already scared him off.

[transam]

You wish Warpy. ...................................

Edited August 28, 2012 by transam

[KeyserSoze01]

Any brake upgrade WILL improve stuff, even over stock wheels and tyres. I do not agree that the slight increase in wheel diameter is a problem. Correct tyre pressures is the key as tyre wall ''give'' has been altered with the lower profile tyres. BUT, if the OP wants to spend cash, for sure there will be an improvement.

Sorry mate but you talk shit.

If you increase the rolling diametre too much it will affect the braking performance, I experienced this going from 15" rims on my Colorado to 20" rims. I increased the rolling diametre by more than 3 % and the brakes were useless.

when I put the same rims/tyres on my Ranger the increase was under .5 % and it is fine.

When I put on the 22" rims and "off road" tyres it is another story hence I will throw on 380mm rotors and 4 pot calipers.

All of which can be mitigated by stepping on the pedal harder.

I am running 19" rims on a Mini Cooper and have noticed zero difference in braking performance. Perhaps because I use high-performance pads all around on the car.

Then there are the 20" rims on my pickup truck. Same deal.

As to your claim that a 3% increase in rolling diameter is affecting your braking performance is well, hogwash.

[transam]

Any brake upgrade WILL improve stuff, even over stock wheels and tyres. I do not agree that the slight increase in wheel diameter is a problem. Correct tyre pressures is the key as tyre wall ''give'' has been altered with the lower profile tyres. BUT, if the OP wants to spend cash, for sure there will be an improvement.

Sorry mate but you talk shit.

If you increase the rolling diametre too much it will affect the braking performance, I experienced this going from 15" rims on my Colorado to 20" rims. I increased the rolling diametre by more than 3 % and the brakes were useless.

when I put the same rims/tyres on my Ranger the increase was under .5 % and it is fine.

When I put on the 22" rims and "off road" tyres it is another story hence I will throw on 380mm rotors and 4 pot calipers.

All of which can be mitigated by stepping on the pedal harder.

I am running 19" rims on a Mini Cooper and have noticed zero difference in braking performance. Perhaps because I use high-performance pads all around on the car.

Then there are the 20" rims on my pickup truck. Same deal.

As to your claim that a 3% increase in rolling diameter is affecting your braking performance is well, hogwash.

Hogwash is the correct term in this instance. .........

[arthurwait]

Somehow I missed 2 previous posts and basically repeated verbatim what they said regarding brakes and the new pads especially Hak's post but anyways better to be redundant then not cover it at all..

On a bit of a side note and off topic I hope the OP & mods will indulge me.

T/A you mentioned having vertigo? I had a pretty serious on track accident at speed in Daytona several years ago, semi head on with the wall, due to a mechanical failure and it rang my bell pretty massively and honestly almost killed me. I had vertigo for several months thereafter and still get bouts occasionally and it sucks to be sure. My doctors couldn't find any cause initially but eventually recommended a treatment to try at home so why not? It worked and it was due to calcium crystals that had collected in my inner ear over time that got displaced when I impacted the wall and put pressure on nerves in the inner ear.

Here's a link to a website with a simple at home treatment, give it a try, nothing to loose except that nasty vertigo feeling and everything to gain.. Good luck hope it helps out, vertigo sucks!

http://women.webmd.c...r-vertigo-works

Disregard the "women" notation in the link this is for real info not a jab in any way...

Mine is because of Psiratic Arthritis affecting the bones in my middle ear , had to sell my boat cos of sea sickness caused by this shit. BUT, suppose at my age must be happy l am still here with great memories.

Sorry about that.

I have no idea what the first word means and know very little about Arthritis, but I thought it usually occurred in parts of the body that moved. fingers, knees etc. Do they have any idea what led to this if anything ?

[arthurwait]

A single kilo on the wheels will have a huge impact on braking. A passenger sitting in the car is not the same as a wheel with direct contact on the ground.

I found a few "tutorials" on that on french forums (yes i'm french). They also experienced the same issues as me while upgrading because the new stuff was heavier.

I contacted EBC brakes and they told me to upgrade yellow stuff and green stuff on my actual rotors and i should be fine. They can ship the pads from Bangkok for 200 baht extra, total cost is something like 6000 baht.

Better be safe than sorry later for just 6000 baht.

I really feel a difference in the braking system, maybe is just too old as i drive sportively, 14 000 km, 2yrs old brake pads (yes i don't use my car too much).

Prost !

Being from across the pond there's a lost of translation here (so don't laugh...): What does Prost and Meh mean? What is Green and Yellow stuff (on the rotors)?

Yeah the "Prost" thing threw me too, I could only think of Alain Prost and couldn't see the connection, meh is meant as a *sigh*...

Correct. I was bored.

[transam]

Somehow I missed 2 previous posts and basically repeated verbatim what they said regarding brakes and the new pads especially Hak's post but anyways better to be redundant then not cover it at all..

On a bit of a side note and off topic I hope the OP & mods will indulge me.

T/A you mentioned having vertigo? I had a pretty serious on track accident at speed in Daytona several years ago, semi head on with the wall, due to a mechanical failure and it rang my bell pretty massively and honestly almost killed me. I had vertigo for several months thereafter and still get bouts occasionally and it sucks to be sure. My doctors couldn't find any cause initially but eventually recommended a treatment to try at home so why not? It worked and it was due to calcium crystals that had collected in my inner ear over time that got displaced when I impacted the wall and put pressure on nerves in the inner ear.

Here's a link to a website with a simple at home treatment, give it a try, nothing to loose except that nasty vertigo feeling and everything to gain.. Good luck hope it helps out, vertigo sucks!

http://women.webmd.c...r-vertigo-works

Disregard the "women" notation in the link this is for real info not a jab in any way...

Mine is because of Psiratic Arthritis affecting the bones in my middle ear , had to sell my boat cos of sea sickness caused by this shit. BUT, suppose at my age must be happy l am still here with great memories.

Sorry about that.

I have no idea what the first word means and know very little about Arthritis, but I thought it usually occurred in parts of the body that moved. fingers, knees etc. Do they have any idea what led to this if anything ?

Thanks for your interest. A hereditary thing. Gran ma, dad, now me have the Psoriasis skin disease, which in some (10%) attacks inner joints and bones, unfortunately me.

[WarpSpeed]

^Agreed.................................................On a race track....................................

On bumpy......melted........destroyed by overloaded truck roads it will mean the dampers (which we don't know the condition of) would have more of a job to control the bump/rebound of the heavier wheel and tyre. Especially under hard braking with weight transferred to the front wheels. Contact patch would be more settled on a smooth track. Although yes harder driving on the track would make it more important, but the OP says he drives fast.

Yes but were not talking lost surface contact do to worn struts/dampers he also mentions his car being relatively new..Read unlikely a strut/damper issue..While it does exist it's really a non issue.. As T/A said earlier what if the car has five people and their luggage? Would that weigh more then an extra 3k you suppose? Honda accounted for that I think?

According to the picture in first car thread at least 6 years old.

Eh? Point taken, but info hidden on another thread I wasn't following, I still don't think, unless he has seriously pounded something on all four wheels at once or at minimum both fronts that he should be requiring new struts at this point since his stated mileage in spite of age is only 14,000k's and that would certainly not be a consistent issue but rather a specific one to pop up on rare occasions not EVERY time he attempts to stop..

He'd get symptoms like wheel hop and serious pitch forward when brakes are applied as well as potential bouncing at speed but none of which he has complained about only diminished braking response in a straight line..

[arthurwait]

Somehow I missed 2 previous posts and basically repeated verbatim what they said regarding brakes and the new pads especially Hak's post but anyways better to be redundant then not cover it at all..

On a bit of a side note and off topic I hope the OP & mods will indulge me.

T/A you mentioned having vertigo? I had a pretty serious on track accident at speed in Daytona several years ago, semi head on with the wall, due to a mechanical failure and it rang my bell pretty massively and honestly almost killed me. I had vertigo for several months thereafter and still get bouts occasionally and it sucks to be sure. My doctors couldn't find any cause initially but eventually recommended a treatment to try at home so why not? It worked and it was due to calcium crystals that had collected in my inner ear over time that got displaced when I impacted the wall and put pressure on nerves in the inner ear.

Here's a link to a website with a simple at home treatment, give it a try, nothing to loose except that nasty vertigo feeling and everything to gain.. Good luck hope it helps out, vertigo sucks!

http://women.webmd.c...r-vertigo-works

Disregard the "women" notation in the link this is for real info not a jab in any way...

Mine is because of Psiratic Arthritis affecting the bones in my middle ear , had to sell my boat cos of sea sickness caused by this shit. BUT, suppose at my age must be happy l am still here with great memories.

Sorry about that.

I have no idea what the first word means and know very little about Arthritis, but I thought it usually occurred in parts of the body that moved. fingers, knees etc. Do they have any idea what led to this if anything ?

Thanks for your interest. A hereditary thing. Gran ma, dad, now me have the Psoriasis skin disease, which in some (10%) attacks inner joints and bones, unfortunately me.

[WarpSpeed]

^Agreed.................................................On a race track....................................

On bumpy......melted........destroyed by overloaded truck roads it will mean the dampers (which we don't know the condition of) would have more of a job to control the bump/rebound of the heavier wheel and tyre. Especially under hard braking with weight transferred to the front wheels. Contact patch would be more settled on a smooth track. Although yes harder driving on the track would make it more important, but the OP says he drives fast.

Yes but were not talking lost surface contact do to worn struts/dampers he also mentions his car being relatively new..Read unlikely a strut/damper issue..While it does exist it's really a non issue.. As T/A said earlier what if the car has five people and their luggage? Would that weigh more then an extra 3k you suppose? Honda accounted for that I think?

Yes of course Honda would have accounted for 3 kg but we aren't talking about failure limits just a slight decrease in braking performance.

It's not about the 3 extra kilos as such it's the percentage increase in wheel/tyre weight, in rotating inertia and to a lesser extend in bump force. Nothing to do with sprung weight except of course weight transfer as always increasing the load on the front wheels under braking.. Of course 3 or 12 extra kilos of that won't make a difference, but that isn't the main issue. Rotating inertia of the wheel being that and if improved braking is needed to control that.

Increase the wheel/tyre weight by (without checking back on the weight) 15-20% then rotating inertia and bump force is higher. Plus the lower profile tyre as many have said will also most likely be stiffer. All taking place on Thailands bumpy roads and a decrease in braking performance might be noticeable due to one or any number of those theories.

A seventh generation is 5 to 9 years old ?

Anyway it looks like Johan has made a decision and I look forward to hopefully hearing the results if we haven't already scared him off.

Still more then enough braking force to compensate if all is in order, of course meaning pad and rotors first.. You keep throwing bumpy roads into the equation as if he never stops on smooth ones? And he's always doing 120k, he hasn't said that, nor would he, it's a special circumstance..BTW Age is really less relevant, mileage is..

[WarpSpeed]

You wish Warpy. ...................................

Not really, I already have 2 young boys, 3 soi kitties and a wife who acts like my 3rd child so my plates too full to take another project .. Edited August 28, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[transam]

You wish Warpy. ...................................

Not really, I already have 2 young boys, 3 soi kitties and a wife who acts like my 3rd child so my plates too full to take another project ..

In the US of A, do they have soi's there? Don't think so.

[WarpSpeed]

Somehow I missed 2 previous posts and basically repeated verbatim what they said regarding brakes and the new pads especially Hak's post but anyways better to be redundant then not cover it at all..

On a bit of a side note and off topic I hope the OP & mods will indulge me.

T/A you mentioned having vertigo? I had a pretty serious on track accident at speed in Daytona several years ago, semi head on with the wall, due to a mechanical failure and it rang my bell pretty massively and honestly almost killed me. I had vertigo for several months thereafter and still get bouts occasionally and it sucks to be sure. My doctors couldn't find any cause initially but eventually recommended a treatment to try at home so why not? It worked and it was due to calcium crystals that had collected in my inner ear over time that got displaced when I impacted the wall and put pressure on nerves in the inner ear.

Here's a link to a website with a simple at home treatment, give it a try, nothing to loose except that nasty vertigo feeling and everything to gain.. Good luck hope it helps out, vertigo sucks!

http://women.webmd.c...r-vertigo-works

Disregard the "women" notation in the link this is for real info not a jab in any way...

Mine is because of Psiratic Arthritis affecting the bones in my middle ear , had to sell my boat cos of sea sickness caused by this shit. BUT, suppose at my age must be happy l am still here with great memories.

Sorry about that.

I have no idea what the first word means and know very little about Arthritis, but I thought it usually occurred in parts of the body that moved. fingers, knees etc. Do they have any idea what led to this if anything ?

Thanks for your interest. A hereditary thing. Gran ma, dad, now me have the Psoriasis skin disease, which in some (10%) attacks inner joints and bones, unfortunately me.

Oh gawd! Don't get me started, wrong thread... Not about you but my own heredity thanks to well....Like I said I better not get started...

[WarpSpeed]

You wish Warpy. ...................................

Not really, I already have 2 young boys, 3 soi kitties and a wife who acts like my 3rd child so my plates too full to take another project ..

In the US of A, do they have soi's there? Don't think so.

US of A? Of course they have soi kitties but call them feral cats but why the US? I'm in Bangkok ....

BTW Done your head rolls yet? Supposed to do them 3 times per day..

Edited August 28, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[transam]

You wish Warpy. ...................................

Not really, I already have 2 young boys, 3 soi kitties and a wife who acts like my 3rd child so my plates too full to take another project ..

In the US of A, do they have soi's there? Don't think so.

US of A? Of course they have soi kitties but call them feral cats but why the US? I'm in Bangkok....

Sorry 'ol chum, thought you had departed these shores. My mistake.

[WarpSpeed]

Not really, I already have 2 young boys, 3 soi kitties and a wife who acts like my 3rd child so my plates too full to take another project ..

In the US of A, do they have soi's there? Don't think so.

US of A? Of course they have soi kitties but call them feral cats but why the US? I'm in Bangkok....

Sorry 'ol chum, thought you had departed these shores. My mistake.

On my bucket list..

[transam]

Eh. ? Is that Yank for something ?

[WarpSpeed]

Eh. ? Is that Yank for something ?

You're so sheltered ol chum, not as far as I know?

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=bucket+list&btnG=Google+Search

[transam]

Eh. ? Is that Yank for something ?

You're so sheltered ol chum, not as far as I know?

http://www.google.co...G=Google Search

Hmmmmmm, your right, sheltered indeed, not thought of it cause don't plan on clocking out yet . Even this old git is aiming at a bigger weight at the gym before my number is up.

But, think they WILL carry me out of here. ........