Farang Men Who Have Healthy Relationships With Thai Men

[dukkha]

In my 5th cycle I consider it important for PEOPLE to make an effort at getting along...it is clear internationally that countries are having great problems getting along, lets make an effort at the grass roots level..My partner is having incredible back problems since last week and today I was overwhelmed when his parents arrived after a 10 hour bus journey to come and visit him and see his state of health...blew me away and only endeared me to thai culture even further...not much to do with being a queen or even about rice...though they chose rice with their meal while I opted for potatoes....sure am enjoying the thread and what people have to offer in their discussions Dukkha

[Ijustwannateach]

Good luck with your guy, Dhukka... he's lucky already to have a caring partner and caring family to look after him (and in such a nice community, too! ).

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

Some people will always understand life here differently. If you live in a foriegn country and the majority of your friends are ex-pats then you are a different type of person than I want to associate with on a daily basis.

I'll stick to having many ex-pat firends but they will always be a minority in my life in Thailand. The majority of my friends are Thai. I like it that way. It has taken years of visiting here and another 2+ years of living here to develop these friendships. They deepen on a daily/weekly basis and I am grateful to have them in my life.

I guess it is possible for people to move here and just associate with other farang. I know some of my older aquaintances that do not speak Thai even after living here for 9+ years. They have only people that speak English as parts of their lives. They like it that way. Cool for them! I just couldn't do it! Not my style! The Friday afternoon cocktail club on Soi 4 followed by dinner out with the same group every week? Then home to UBC? Egads no!

Here's my sincere hope that people read the posts in here and note words like "For the most part I am tighter with the Thais..."

// this post edited for "group harmony", shall we say.

ChrisP

Mod

[Steve2UK]

Jdinasia, you really got me smiling with your post. Very nicely put.

I've seen expats around in Chiang Mai with their day-old British/US/German etc newspaper and I've found myself wondering if they have any notion of what country they're in other than it doesn't snow and things are so cheap. Similarly, I know one particular Brit whose every week consists of three rounds of golf and two quiz nights at a pub in town; as far as I know, after several years in LOS, his Thai language is confined to what he needs for dealing with his caddie.........

Unfair on my part, of course - and, if that's what works for them, good luck to them. But - like you - not for me. I want to maintain what I see as a healthy mix of all kinds of friendships - farang, Thai, gay, straight, male, female, younger, older etc.............. And not necessarily in that order......

That said, I think I also have to own up to a temporary bout of that ultra "Thainess" which IJWT mentioned. When I first started coming to Thailand, I fell in love with the culture so much that I got more than a bit precious about it for a while. I think of it as comparable to the recently-converted (be it to Christianity or to a stopped-smoker) - irritatingly pious and "Thai-er than thou". That was then - and I'm 100% "cured" now .

[jdinasia]

sounds like a great new thread ...

since I actually take being respectful to the culture and people where I live as important; I'd phrase it "What do I as a farang do to conform to the society in which I choose to live"

I think maybe others might phrase it more like ... "How much should I disregard my own culture just to respect the people where I live?"

Maybe you could come up with something in the middle Steve2UK

Edited February 12, 2006 by jdinasia

[Steve2UK]

sounds like a great new thread ...

since I actually take being respectful to the culture and people where I live as important; I'd phrase it "What do I as a farang do to conform to the society in which I choose to live"

I think maybe others might phrase it more like ... "How much should I disregard my own culture just to respect the people where I live?"

Maybe you could come up with something in the middle Steve2UK

Not sure if it's in the middle, but I think I'd go for "How do I best connect with the people around me - without having the DNA of a chameleon?".

Trouble is, there'll be a zoologist out there who'll remind me that chameleons don't actually change their look to match their environment. Most octopi do - but that could really trigger all sorts of distracting (not to say "off-colour" ) connotations........

[toptuan]

I know some of my older aquaintances that do not speak Thai even after living here for 9+ years. They have only people that speak English as parts of their lives....The Friday afternoon cocktail club on Soi 4 followed by dinner out with the same group every week? Then home to UBC? Egads no!

Your description is of someone who'd be just as happy in Costa Rica, Palm Springs, Florida, or some Greek island. The culture and people were probably at the bottom of their list. The "cheap living." relative security and weather probably at the top. They remind me of the tourist who goes to exotic third world locations, but will only stay in 5-star western hotels, eat only steak and eggs for breakfast, and tour in an air-conditioned $80,000 Land Rover for a couple hours a day (the rest of the day being spent around the pool drinking Margaritas).

As others have said, nothing wrong with that. Just not my cup o' tea, either. It's the people and culture that really light my fire (on...ahem...several levels).

Steve2UK: Your point of "being Thai-er than thou" strikes a familiar chord concerning a number of expats I've met here, too. The cultural anthropology books describe two extremes the expat often gravitates toward:

"going native" (your description)

and

"cultural rejection" (absolute hatred and revulsion to everything "foreign" around them).

In the first instance, they deny their own cultural roots and sometimes create walls between themselves and other expats with that superior attitude. In many cases, even the local nationals tend to disdain these types of expats as "wannabees".

In the second instance, they may go on living in the culture/country, but cocoon themselves with all things "British" or "American", etc. minimizing most or all contact with things "foreign."

You' ve probably seen both extremes and all points along the spectrum as I have. Different strokes for different folks.

However, interesting that you used the word "cured."

Psychologists who deal with cross-cultural issues warn that the two extremes can actually lead to emotional/mental problems if not put in check. A number of large multinational corporations have mental health professionals on staff who help employees, spouses and children adjust to conditions created by off-shore assignments. These are the sort of typical problems they run into.

So, Wannabees and Cocoons! Beware!

Edited February 13, 2006 by toptuan

[Ijustwannateach]

I remember back in Japan there was an old, old man who lived in the same apartment building I did... we had communal meals back then and the building cook greeted everyone as they came home. He came in one day and she said the ritual "Okaeri.. [welcome back]." Even after he had been in Japan something like 15 years he didn't know to say the ritual "Tadaima [i'm home]..." - that was a pretty extreme case of someone living in a bubble.

Supposedly, culture shock takes several steps- a fascination, followed by a rejection, followed by a confusion, followed by an adaptation. Most successful foreigners living abroad adopt the elements of the culture which work well for them, without entirely "going native." I would presume that in most successful foreigner-Thai relationships, both parties must make a certain number of compromises and concessions to the other's expectations (or heck, this would be true in any basic relationship, nevermind the foreign-Thai element).

For example, I can accept certain differences in the Thai notions of time, seriousness, and sanook without stretching myself too far (although these are very, very different from the same concepts as exhibited in Japan, and both of these are different from the American concepts I grew up with). It doesn't bother me that older people get more respect here than they would in the states- I kinda think this is a good idea anyway. I just smile and wait for things to work themselves out when unpredictable craziness or inefficiency begins in stores or businesses- I'm not that impatient.

Harder for me to accept are the elements of Thai culture involving status differences based on economics and wealth. I'm an unabashed liberal back home and would like to see more egalitarianism even in the states where things are at least slightly better (at least, they often seem to be). I get angry when I see people try to walk over other people.

I'm also not too hot on mai pen rai, especially in the schools where I have worked and seen it used in a way that I believe is destroying the chance of many students to get a halfway decent education. (They failed EVERY class, cannot read or multiply single digits? Mai pen rai, let them pass to junior high school anyway!)

Hardest of all for me is form over substance and harmony over logic. I'm a rationalist and I like things to make sense. When some hidden political agenda or individual quirk or whim of my Thai boss (whom it is socially unacceptable for me to criticise or question) becomes the reason for an entirely unreasonable or antiproductive school policy, it still hurts to bite my lip and say nothing- although I have learned from observation how the Thai community of teachers makes their displeasure known indirectly and now follow them.

Living and working in a Thai environment the last few years has tested me, but in the end I think I know what the limits of my adaptation are, and I have passed through the stage of fighting against the things I cannot change. Having adjusted internally to the culture makes it easier in meeting individual Thais to make up my mind about what is "ok" or "not ok" for me in relationships- which makes things a lot faster in deciding where a relationship should go.

"Steven"

[Steve2UK]

Supposedly, culture shock takes several steps- a fascination, followed by a rejection, followed by a confusion, followed by an adaptation. Most successful foreigners living abroad adopt the elements of the culture which work well for them, without entirely "going native." I would presume that in most successful foreigner-Thai relationships, both parties must make a certain number of compromises and concessions to the other's expectations (or heck, this would be true in any basic relationship, nevermind the foreign-Thai element).

So far, I seem to have skipped the "rejection" stage (permanently, I hope). Still get confusion, though - and I expect that to continue for quite a while; come to that, I welcome it as an inevitable part of exploring/understanding/adapting to life in LOS. In many ways, my ideal Thai partner will have the same interest in and curiousity about the different things that make me tick as I will about him. And sure - how much we can each adapt to or adopt what the other brings to the table is definitely a major factor in how healthy our relationship will be.

[toptuan]

For example, I can accept certain differences in the Thai notions of time, seriousness, and sanook without stretching myself too far..

Harder for me to accept are...

...status differences based on economics and wealth.

...mai pen rai, especially in the schools...

...form over substance

...harmony over logic

What a great post and worthy example of the eclectic approach to acculturation: Adopting the things that make life better, but holding to your principles for the things that don't work or don't make sense (and trying to live and work within the culture, despite those things.)

With your permission, I'd like to use your post, and your main points as a good outline for my cultural orientation sessions for short-term American college students who come to help in our school. In the past, whenever they were shocked or dismayed at the culture, it was usually in those areas.

Incidentally, the same things that bug you, bug me, AND bug some very serious-thinking Thai people with whom I've had some long, deep conversations. Every culture has its dysfunctional elements, and a perceptive, discerning expat OR native Thai (Indian, Malay, Chinese, etc.) will recognize them. In those long conversations, I have to also defer to my Thai friend's evaluation of dysfunctional aspects of my western culture as well (and God knows we have plenty of 'em). It's eating humble pie, but it helps develop a nice equality of relationship between us as cross-cultural friends.

[jdinasia]

I have managed to entirely skip the "rejection phase" too.

I have to admit when it does all get to me I do make a quick retreat. Thankfully hopping in a plane and going somewhere else (That reminds me of all the crap "back home") is so easy!

The best part about having friends that are Thai and educated is that you CAN have those long conversations about the things that could use attention from the educated politically active locals!! They just tend to be private conversations.

Chris! No problem with editing my post above since you took the flame it responded to completely out of the thread! In fact... Kudos to you for leaving any of the post!

[toptuan]

I have managed to entirely skip the "rejection phase" too.

I THOUGHT I'd skipped the "rejection phase" (and was patting myself on the back for it) until I caught myself complaining to my Thai soul-mate about various "Thai things." (You know, from packages I couldn't open, to the lack of proper management at my work, etc.)

Although I would have never complained about these things in public, somehow I thought I had greater license to do it with my soul mate. My whining was not met with arguments or backlashes. Just pained silence. I got the message. It was then I realized I was having my own little almost-private rejection phase. I stopped it, and consequently stopped hurting the one I care for most.

But you know what? The ThaiVisa forum gets it all out of my system! I think I did a major rant on Thai packaging on another thread. Thanks guys!

[PeaceBlondie]

Going back several posts, I like the point that the gay Thai men ought to be slow/hesitant to date farang who are tourists, or newcomers. Such farang don't understand much yet, enough to be a good partner.

I got lucky after only a few months; others searched (or waited) a few years. We were talking today about how, in tourist spots, the quick money types will ask, "Where you from? How long you in Thailand?" When you say, "Several years," the money types run away because you probably know how much it costs to replace a water buffalo.

I remember getting 'interviewed' or vetted at the gay sauna. Those guys interviewed their prospective partners before deciding what to do next.

Learning Thai is incredibly difficult, if not impossible, for some people over 50 who are nearly tone deaf. New language, alphabet, grammar, vocabulary - none of which resembles the Euro-Indian family of languages. I can't learn Thai or eat Thai food, but I'm staying.

But the only people I raise my voice to now,are loud farang.

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks for the very kind words, Toptuan... you're welcome to use my writing here any way you see fit. As Kurt Vonnegut (or was that Kilgore Trout) said, "we're all here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is."

It's wise of you, too, to use this board or mainly a foreign outlet to vent when you feel a stage of negativity coming on... as the Thais are less than enthusiastic to hear complaints about Thailand coming from a foreigner- not unlike a good ol' Mississippi boy who can't imagine why anyone would live anywhere else, or a Japanese person who thinks that Japanese rice is the "best in the world."

Heh heh- PB's right- the financial types often do this huge wide-eyed double take when you say you've been here for years, then they run away. Fortunately there are others who are more interested.

"Steven"

[toptuan]

Heh heh- PB's right- the financial types often do this huge wide-eyed double take when you say you've been here for years, then they run away. Fortunately there are others who are more interested.

Agreed--the serious LTR-types' eyes widen because they've finally found someone who's weathered the language, food, weather, culture shock, etc. It works both ways, definitely.

Edited February 15, 2006 by toptuan

[toptuan]

...not unlike a good ol' Mississippi boy who can't imagine why anyone would live anywhere else, or a Japanese person who thinks that Japanese rice is the "best in the world"...

We are all helpless ethno-centrists to some degree. Your comment reminds me of one business trip I took which included both Japan and Korea. I spent a platonic weekend with a close str8 Japanese friend with whom I'd had many deep conversations. One afternoon, when the conversation turned to religion, he asked me with a straight face: "Did you know that Heaven is located directly over Japan?" I'm not kidding. He wasn't kidding. Dead serious. The only polite response I could think of was "Uh, no, I wasn't aware of that, Nobu."

In an unbelievable stroke of coincidence, when I was with one of my equally close Korean friends a week later, in Seoul, he asked me exactly the same question, substituting "Korea" for "Japan".

I had to stifle the urge to burst out laughing, because, after all, we all know Heaven is situated directly over Seattle.

[slightly off topic, but couldn't resist sharing the vignette...]

[jdinasia]

Going back several posts, I like the point that the gay Thai men ought to be slow/hesitant to date farang who are tourists, or newcomers. Such farang don't understand much yet, enough to be a good partner.

I got lucky after only a few months; others searched (or waited) a few years. We were talking today about how, in tourist spots, the quick money types will ask, "Where you from? How long you in Thailand?" When you say, "Several years," the money types run away because you probably know how much it costs to replace a water buffalo.

I remember getting 'interviewed' or vetted at the gay sauna. Those guys interviewed their prospective partners before deciding what to do next.

Learning Thai is incredibly difficult, if not impossible, for some people over 50 who are nearly tone deaf. New language, alphabet, grammar, vocabulary - none of which resembles the Euro-Indian family of languages. I can't learn Thai or eat Thai food, but I'm staying.

But the only people I raise my voice to now,are loud farang.

People have often commented on the lack of Thai contributors to this forum. I submit that one of the reasons is that they consider THIS to be a public place. (I know that at least 4 do ...one told me about this sub-forum and only posted twice .. then got sick of the constant remarks about Thai's so dropped off). Why would a Thai gay guy want to contribute here? As a general rule they are not that interested in confrontation in public spaces ... and if you look at the overall characterizations of Thai gay men in the forum .. well ...

Even the nice guys in here will often preface a remark .... "My guy isn't like the gold-digging leaches you meet in ..."

Frankly I don't know how to reach a balance on this topic ... it is true to some extent that ... well let's do this one by idiom ... "If you hang out in a barber shop long enough you are bound to get a haircut".

Since however, some of our most prolific posters keep up the characterizations of Thai guys as being questionable or worse ... I think I'll stick with my direct experience that tends to counter that silliness :-)

This being said ... tonight is date night ... off to the Symphony soon to catch the Italians .... C-ya

PS --- frankly this post could have gone into any one of 4 threads that are active .... but the quote was from here so ....

Edited February 15, 2006 by jdinasia

[Steve2UK]

Frankly I don't know how to reach a balance on this topic ... it is true to some extent that ... well let's do this one by idiom ... "If you hang out in a barber shop long enough you are bound to get a haircut".

Or " If you make a point of frequenting the Thai equivalent of a 'red light' venue, don't be too surprised if you meet commercially-minded 'company' ".

I agree with so much of what Jdinasia is raising in this post. It frustrates me that there's such an element of the self-fulfilling prophecy in much of what I read on the forum. Somehow, even if the negative posts are matched in quantity by the positive ones, it's the negative ones that stand out; maybe it's comparable to the impact of "bad news" versus "good news" in other media.

I thought long and hard about whether it was right to post the article in the "Get ready to smile" thread and even more about how to introduce it - hence my flagging it as being useful to see another Thai side of the many farang/Thai coins that are out there.

If there is an answer, I can't help feeling that it must at least start with us farang all trying to make an effort to step outside of the accumulated mindset we inevitably bring with us and work on seeing things through a range of Thai eyes. Plainly, that takes time and it's a long learning curve; no surprise then that those (expats, I mean) who are in LOS longer tend to handle it better than the tourist on a first trip. Experience counts, but even that's of little use without an inquiring, receptive and open mind - not to mention patience.

It seems to me that the farang in LOS has a key advantage: by definition, he/she has first-hand experience of at least their own culture outside LOS - not true of any Thai who hasn't had the opportunity to spend time outside their own country and therefore likely "knows" only what they see through the distorting lens of their TV and cinema screens. With that advantage comes (IMO) a greater responsibility..........

Does that last paragraph start to sound a tad patronising? I certainly don't mean it to be - but it's easily done, isn't it?

[Ijustwannateach]

I think that the forum is, basically, a ghetto for foreigners in Thailand. As such, it will and should necessarily have viewpoints clustered more around those of the foreigners than those of possibly sympathetic or interested Thais reading the site. As Toptuan mentioned, it's useful to have such a place, as an example, to vent frustrations rather than taking out our occasional complaints on our long-suffering Thai friends, who may not even see (from lack of comparison between a place outside and here) what the heck we are complaining about (I think that touches on your point, Steve, which is a good one).

To a certain extent, focus on the difference (which can sometimes come across as negativity, too) will be common here because there will be so many readers who are new either to Thailand or to the forum. In helping them up a learning curve, and in an effort to help them avoid the small but undeniably tourist-friendly dodgy side of the scene, it's inevitable that a large proportion of the posts will touch on that dark side of the scene. It's one of the purposes of the site to help newer people avoid problems, understand the environment, and acclimatise themselves.

I think anyone who expects it to be a society of cultural experts such as the Siam Society will only naturally be disappointed. On the other hand, it's not a community composed entirely of barflies, as some Thai gay sites are. It seems to me to strike a pleasant and happy medium, with the above caveats.

Of course, there are always those who will be unsatisfied with the way any community works- but nothing stops them from posting cheerful, happy, upbeat, charming, positive messages of the kind they would like to improve the tone of their local forum. I always look forward to those types of messages, myself!

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

Frankly I don't know how to reach a balance on this topic ... it is true to some extent that ... well let's do this one by idiom ... "If you hang out in a barber shop long enough you are bound to get a haircut".

Or " If you make a point of frequenting the Thai equivalent of a 'red light' venue, don't be too surprised if you meet commercially-minded 'company' ".

I agree with so much of what Jdinasia is raising in this post. It frustrates me that there's such an element of the self-fulfilling prophecy in much of what I read on the forum. Somehow, even if the negative posts are matched in quantity by the positive ones, it's the negative ones that stand out; maybe it's comparable to the impact of "bad news" versus "good news" in other media.

I thought long and hard about whether it was right to post the article in the "Get ready to smile" thread and even more about how to introduce it - hence my flagging it as being useful to see another Thai side of the many farang/Thai coins that are out there.

If there is an answer, I can't help feeling that it must at least start with us farang all trying to make an effort to step outside of the accumulated mindset we inevitably bring with us and work on seeing things through a range of Thai eyes. Plainly, that takes time and it's a long learning curve; no surprise then that those (expats, I mean) who are in LOS longer tend to handle it better than the tourist on a first trip. Experience counts, but even that's of little use without an inquiring, receptive and open mind - not to mention patience.

It seems to me that the farang in LOS has a key advantage: by definition, he/she has first-hand experience of at least their own culture outside LOS - not true of any Thai who hasn't had the opportunity to spend time outside their own country and therefore likely "knows" only what they see through the distorting lens of their TV and cinema screens. With that advantage comes (IMO) a greater responsibility..........

Does that last paragraph start to sound a tad patronising? I certainly don't mean it to be - but it's easily done, isn't it?

Thanks ... really nice to see that someone "gets it". I am not sure , however, I agree with the farang in the LOS having an advantage. It seems that some guys have been here a long time and yet not really learned. Instead of learning from the past they often just get bitter and jaded .. assume the worst of everyone and become the guys that perpetuate the stereotypes instead of someone to learn from.(Well you can learn from a bad example ... but they don't even seem to get that they ARE a bad example!)

I know 4 other guys think the same as well. I wish they would speak up a bit more. The messages I have rec'd were eloquent and well considered! (Post them here guys ... you live here ... and though I won't promise you will not be called names by the guys invested in this as a space only for farang ex-pats; I can tell you that being called name on here doesn't hurt!)

Steve2UK ... do you have a nephew named Peter Parker?

Edited February 16, 2006 by jdinasia

[Ijustwannateach]

Edited February 16, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[Steve2UK]

Steve2UK ... do you have a nephew named Peter Parker?

I'm wondering if I should be hearing a "whoosh" sound of something flying over my head..........

But the simple answer is "no".

[jdinasia]

Spiderman's Uncle Ben always said ... with great power comes great responsability.....

[Steve2UK]

Spiderman's Uncle Ben always said ... with great power comes great responsability.....

Ahhhhhhhhhh.......... I geddit now

In that case, I have to agree with Uncle Ben - but let's not bring his rice into this, OK?

[Ijustwannateach]

Jd, I have to say your goals are admirable, but don't you think it's a little odd to say that somehow a site called "Thaivisa.com" is not supposed to serve the needs of expats?

Getting back to the topic...

The "healthiest" relationship of which I am aware, by traditional standards, is one between a teacher friend of mine in his 50s and a Thai-Chinese guy in his 30s. 2 or 3 years now together, and they seem to be doing fine- they're very good friends of mine.

"Steven"

[jdinasia]

5555 ...

I wasn't aware I posted any "goals", but if I did it certainly would be to have less stereotyping of Thai gay men in this forum and less blogs (there's a place for those to be advertised on TV already).

However there has been many times that people have bemoaned the lack of Thai gay men posting to this sub-forum. I am not going to dig back over the last 2 years to find the examples but I do remember 5 people that are very active posters making comments about it.

This thread has shown that a positive oriented thread CAN have legs! It's been nice to see! There are gay men here that have longer relationships (hel_l .. shorter ones too!) that are not "dodgy" and not filled with insane drama.

All relationships have levels of drama in them. All relationships take work! Just truly nice to see people talking about how they work. There's been a theme in Dukkha's posts and that of many others. The theme that I have seen is balanced on respect and flexibility! Strangely the only relationships I have ever seen or been in that are examples of "healthy" are based upon those 2 things. Finances are always hard things to deal with in relationships but I have never known a "healthy" relationship to dissolve over that. Fidelity isn't even the major issue for most relationships that I have seen end over "cheating". Instead it has been that one or both of the guys were being liars about their real behaviour. The couples that have had unfaithful relationships that I have seen work; have been honest from the outset or at least been honest after the first dramatic episode that not being honest at first caused.

Cheers to the people that are out there "doing it" <having healthy relationships i mean !!>

Edited February 20, 2006 by PeaceBlondie

[dukkha]

JD, your balanced and intelligent comments are a refreshing read on this particular thread and am grateful for your acknowledgement of the small part I have been able to contribute...Upon meeting Sam it was spelt out with utter honesty that perhaps there may be occaisons when ones sexual desires may include sexual eperiences with others, there was no dishonesty or 'cheating' element to our discussion and thus our relationship allows for that aberration, or maybe not an aberration...our respect and care of one another goes beyond any petty wrangles regarding ones libido or lack of it....we regard that which we have as being 'healthy' and there is no threat to stability and depth of what we have built up together over 10 months...our happiness is founded on our love of one another and our willingness to be open to the difficuties that a cross cultural and age difference relationship incur....not all can live in such a relationship but I am daily comforted by the love and tenderness that is expressed to me and the appreciation that both our lives have been indelibly changed since meeting one another..

Dukkha

[jdinasia]

Thanks

[Ijustwannateach]

Actually, I also have to give credit to an American guy I know who's dating a Thai guy that he helped through university, who actually studied hard and did well- and now has a great job. I think they're at 3 or 4 years, something like that... there're plenty of successful relationships around- outnumbered by the unsuccessful ones, but that's the way life is, no?

Speaking of successful relationships in general, the most successful "marriage" that I know of in the world is between two American guys I knew in Florida- they'd been together 35+ years (not sure exactly).... they gave credit to their fidelity for having survived the early AIDS years before safer sex habits were well-known.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

In Houston, I met a gay couple who'd been together FIFTY years! That was around 1997.

Hetero relationships are also rocky, without all the special problems we have.