Grasses, Glyphosate 48% Herbicide And Ammonium Sulphate

[loong]

Not really sure of the species of grass that are causing me problems at the moment.

Lets say thay are crabgrass, bermuda grass and Johnson grass. If I have not identified them correctly, they are extremely similar in nature.

The crabgrass is not so bad as it mainly spreads by dropping adventitious roots at the nodes and these take some time to grow deep into the soil.

The others and especially the Johnson are the real terrors!

I feel that it is best to use a systematic herbicide in order to kill off the extensive growth underground.

My water supply is from a borehole (at home, not on the land), not sure how deep, but water table is high and so I think probably only 10 or 15 metres. I was away at the time it was drilled and never found out how deep.

I'm wondering if it is best to use rainwater collected from the roof to dilute the gyphosate . I understand that the water from the borehole could contain calcium, magnesium and sodium salts that are likely to impair the effectiveness of glyphosate.

Apparently the problems with these salts can be overcome by the addition of Ammonium sulfate.

I don't know how readily available ammonium sulfate is around here, I haven't been to the merchants to enquire yet.

Any advice would be much appreciated regarding adding ammonium sulfate or whether it is simply best to use rainwater.

Edited August 28, 2012 by loong

[cooked]

I used Glyphosate (Roundup) in all sorts of different water regimes in Europe. I never noticed, or even thought about this question before although googling it you do get some results. My main problems were caused by too low temperatures or it raining inside of the prescribed period (5 hours now, I believe). Any problems caused by water quality should be solved by adding a bit more to your solution (1.5 instead of 1.0%? or even 2 %) unless this really is a financial problem. Cheaper, easier and more environmentally friendly than using Aluminium phosphate as well as Glyphosate...

The other question of course, is whether you really want to be spraying closer than 10 meters to your borehole, although ii seems to be polluted anyway.

Don't be nervous about using Glypho, but keep its use down to a minimum.

[loong]

I used Glyphosate (Roundup) in all sorts of different water regimes in Europe. I never noticed, or even thought about this question before although googling it you do get some results. My main problems were caused by too low temperatures or it raining inside of the prescribed period (5 hours now, I believe). Any problems caused by water quality should be solved by adding a bit more to your solution (1.5 instead of 1.0%? or even 2 %) unless this really is a financial problem. Cheaper, easier and more environmentally friendly than using Aluminium phosphate as well as Glyphosate...

The other question of course, is whether you really want to be spraying closer than 10 meters to your borehole, although ii seems to be polluted anyway.

Don't be nervous about using Glypho, but keep its use down to a minimum.

I am a bit nervous about using any chemicals, but realise that it is a necessity.

My borehole is in my small organic plot, near my home and a long way from the farm land. I don't think that it is polluted, but the water will surely pick up minerals etc when it percolates through the soil. Maybe not polluted , but I don't drink it

Cheaper, easier and more environmentally friendly than using Aluminium phosphate as well as Glyphosate...

Is that another additive that is commonly used with glyphosate? I haven't come across Aluminium phosphate in my research. What are the advantages?

Thanks

[cooked]

I really never heard of other additives being recommended for Glyph, much of the environmental damage caused by using Roundup is caused by the additives. (Roundup = Glyph plus additives).

I'm sorry that I wrote Alu. phosphate, a mistake on my part, due to my using this harmless chemical in the past for other purposes.

I recommend you just get on with it and see what happens! The active ingredients of Roundup, Glyph. and so on disappear (usually) from the soil within a few days. The problem with the stuff is that in the past the developers hid information about it that indicated that it isn't entirely harmless.

[TongueThaied]

"Round-Up" is probably formulated with a sufficient amount non-ionic surfactants added. However, most of the glyphosate you see here, certainly the more reasonably priced stuff, is produced in China. I purchase a non-ionic surfactant at the place that sells the herbicides and add it.

Before he got so old, my father-in-law used to do the spraying. His spray did okay, but was unimpressive. He did not add a non-ionic surfactant. Then I took over but did a little research first. There are some species that have become glyphosate resistant. I use a cocktail of glyphosate and 2,4D with a dose of non-ionic surfactant, mixing all according to the strongest mix indicated on the labels. I also use well water (community water supply is from a well). I make sure all the weeds get a good wetting. This method absolutely kills (almost) everything it touches, and quickly. Of course, 2,4D does not kill grasses, but it will get all the broad leafs that have become Round-Up resistant.

Now, the clincher. I said "almost" because there is one (and only one) grass that seems to survive my onslaught. It is the only player left standing. I do not know the species but it grows in distinct clumps from a small base. It sprays out from its base and reaches two or three feet in height and is very course. My spray knocks it back a little, but it survives. The downside is that surviving herbicide, makes a plant even more resistant to it. Just the other day, I gave it a second dose to see what happens, but am not hopeful.

My plan is to throw a tank of propane on my ATV and burn these clumps with my 200,000 BTU weed burner.

Edited August 29, 2012 by TongueThaied

[WatersEdge]

Ammonium Sulfate is available in Thailand.

You will see it sold as 21-0-0 + 24S

Not all the fertilizer shops carry it,

but it was cheap when I bought it,

as I recall B400 per bag.

I liked it on limestone based soil which has high pH

because it lowers the pH when the plant takes up the Nitrogen,

leaving the Sulfate behind.

It also is good for high sulfur requirement crops,

such as Sugar Cane.

Not every soil needs pH lowered,

and not every crop needs a lot of Sulfur

Rice does not need a lot of sulfur,

but if sulfur is completely depleted from the soil,

the Rice will not yield well.

A little bit of Sulfur can make a huge difference in Rice.

On limestone soil,

the sulfate reacts on the limestone to form gypsum

which remains available to the plant until it slowly leaches below the root zone.

[David Peters]

Glyphosate is a non selective herbicide. It is only active through green plant tissues but translocates from the foliage to all parts of the plants including roots. It has no residual activity.

Rainfall within 6 hours of application will reduce effectiveness.

It takes from between 14-20 days for the plants to die.

Adding a wetting agent will make glyphosate more effective.

Do not add anything thing else.

Bore water is no problem.

Do not dig, cut, mow sprayed plants for at least two weeks as this will reduce control of the problem weeds. Let them die completely before cultivation.

I often repeat a spot spraying after one month.

For long-term control, spray in the dry season, maybe twice and then plough and leave fallow.

Cultivate in May and plant your cassava.

[TongueThaied]

Glyphosate is a non selective herbicide. It is only active through green plant tissues but translocates from the foliage to all parts of the plants including roots. It has no residual activity.

Rainfall within 6 hours of application will reduce effectiveness.

It takes from between 14-20 days for the plants to die.

Adding a wetting agent will make glyphosate more effective.

Do not add anything thing else.

Bore water is no problem.

Do not dig, cut, mow sprayed plants for at least two weeks as this will reduce control of the problem weeds. Let them die completely before cultivation.

I often repeat a spot spraying after one month.

For long-term control, spray in the dry season, maybe twice and then plough and leave fallow.

Cultivate in May and plant your cassava.

So you think my mixing 2,4D with the glyphosate is a bad idea? I did so on the advice of the Chinese chemical shop owner and it sure killed everything dead (except that one grass -- but it is quite sick and may die yet). But I have no knowledge of the chemistry, and would cease the practice if it is a bad idea. Is it something negative? Or do you see it as unnecessarily redundant? I am truly interested in a greater understanding of this. Thanks.

[cooked]

2,4 D, agent Orange and Dioxin are chemically related and banned from sale in Europe. Don't trust these guys, they just know that what they sell does what it is supposed to do, ie, kill things. Same thing goes for E-85, containing Carbaryl, banned in Europe, which is why they sell the stuff here in the t'ird world. They are very reluctant to sell you a measuring spoon also.

I watched the civilised country of Switzerland go through all this lack of interest, education or knowledge about chemical products to the highly regulated regime that it is today. I used to get annoyedthen as well.

[David Peters]

Glyphosate is compatible with nearly all other chemicals except gramoxone or preeglone. You can mix glyphosate with 2,4-D but for what purpose? 2,4-D is for selective control of broadleaf weeds. It will not kill grasses. I use 2,4-D on my lawn to kill broadleaf weeds as it will not harm the grass. But one must use the correct rate. .

[xylophone]

I have used sodium chlorate in the past as it is a non-selective weedkiller. Kills everything it is sprayed on!

[TongueThaied]

Glyphosate is compatible with nearly all other chemicals except gramoxone or preeglone. You can mix glyphosate with 2,4-D but for what purpose? 2,4-D is for selective control of broadleaf weeds. It will not kill grasses. I use 2,4-D on my lawn to kill broadleaf weeds as it will not harm the grass. But one must use the correct rate. .

I understand that 2,4D doesn't kill grasses, which is why it is a favorite at golf courses. The theory is, as related to me, to have a second shot at the broad leaf weeds that are becoming glyphosate resistant.

[TongueThaied]

2,4 D, agent Orange and Dioxin are chemically related and banned from sale in Europe. Don't trust these guys, they just know that what they sell does what it is supposed to do, ie, kill things. Same thing goes for E-85, containing Carbaryl, banned in Europe, which is why they sell the stuff here in the t'ird world. They are very reluctant to sell you a measuring spoon also.

I watched the civilised country of Switzerland go through all this lack of interest, education or knowledge about chemical products to the highly regulated regime that it is today. I used to get annoyedthen as well.

As far as I know, 2,4D is only banned in Sweden and Norway and restricted in Denmark. Are you sure you are not thinking of 2,4,5T, which is probably banned everywhere?

[David Peters]

Glyphosate is compatible with nearly all other chemicals except gramoxone or preeglone. You can mix glyphosate with 2,4-D but for what purpose? 2,4-D is for selective control of broadleaf weeds. It will not kill grasses. I use 2,4-D on my lawn to kill broadleaf weeds as it will not harm the grass. But one must use the correct rate. .

I understand that 2,4D doesn't kill grasses, which is why it is a favorite at golf courses. The theory is, as related to me, to have a second shot at the broad leaf weeds that are becoming glyphosate resistant.

Try atrazine. I don't know how big your property is, but why not hoe the those resistant weeds out?

[cooked]

2,4 D, agent Orange and Dioxin are chemically related and banned from sale in Europe. Don't trust these guys, they just know that what they sell does what it is supposed to do, ie, kill things. Same thing goes for E-85, containing Carbaryl, banned in Europe, which is why they sell the stuff here in the t'ird world. They are very reluctant to sell you a measuring spoon also.

I watched the civilised country of Switzerland go through all this lack of interest, education or knowledge about chemical products to the highly regulated regime that it is today. I used to get annoyedthen as well.

As far as I know, 2,4D is only banned in Sweden and Norway and restricted in Denmark. Are you sure you are not thinking of 2,4,5T, which is probably banned everywhere?

guilty as accused.

[David006]

I have used sodium chlorate in the past as it is a non-selective weedkiller. Kills everything it is sprayed on!

great for blowing up your tree stumps too? oh maybe that is pot chlorate..whatever.

we use Glyphosphate and SC....or at least our labor does....still like painting the Forth bridge....

[howto]

good info here...

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/nursery-weeds/feature_articles/AS_plus_Roundup/Adding_ammonium_sulfate_to_Roundup.html

One can also use urea,

but is slightly less effective.

[howto]

more info,

however seems the url is bad...

so here is it in full...

Getting The Most From Roundup

http://www.maes.msu.edu/nwmihort/roundup.html

Jim Johnson, Emeritus Professor, Entomology, MSU

Gary E. Thornton

District Fruit IPM Agent

Michigan State University

Roundup (Glyphosate) is a systemic herbicide that is

widely used in fruit production in Michigan.

In order for Glyphosate to be effective

it needs to be absorbed into the plant.

In soft water Glyphosate has no problems in being absorbed,

however; in hard water Glyphosate will be "tied up"

and not be absorbed as readily.

This is known as "hard water antagonism".

Hard water contains high concentrations of the soluble salts, calcium (Ca++) and magnesium (Mg++).

When these are present in your spray water

the Glyphosate, which is negatively charged,

will combine with them to form Glyphosate-Magnesium

and Glyphosate-Calcium compounds.

These compounds are not as easily absorbed by the plant

and the result is poor uptake and poor weed control.

So how can growers increase the efficacy of

their Glyphosate treatments?

A common practice has been

to add a surfactant to the spray tank,

this allows the Glyphosate spray solution

to spread across the leaf surface better

and the result is greater absorption into the leaf.

Some Glyphosate products

now have the surfactant in them such as "Roundup Ultra".

Roundup Ultra does not solve the hard water antagonism problem by the addition of a surfactant though,

as the surfactant alone does not address this problem.

The hard water problem is best solved by

adding 17 pounds of ammonium sulfate per 100 gallons

to the spray water before the Glyphosate is added.

Urea - Ammonium Nitrate (28% liquid nitrogen)

will also improve the efficacy of Glyphosate,

but not as well a the Ammonium sulfate.

The addition of this compound to the spray water does two things.

First, the sulfate ions tie up the calcium and magnesium ions

by forming conjugate salts and

secondly, some of the Glyphosate ends up as

a Glyphosate-Ammonium compound

which some species of weeds preferentially absorb

into their leaf tissue over Glyphosate alone.

Reduced gallons of spray solution per acre will also have the effect of increasing the efficacy of the Glyphosate.

Fewer gallons of water equals fewer calcium and magnesium ions to tie up the Glyphosate.

So, if you have had less than ideal performance from your glyphosate product and you think your water is on the hard side, then consider addressing the problem using ammoniun sulfate.

3/30/99

[cooked]

Blimey, I lived in a very hard water area for years, I didn't know this, which is probably why I never had any problems. If you are buying Glyph. by the ton this information might be important, but I think that the average user might just augment the dosage.(maybe up to 10% but at high temperatures the evaporating chemical will kill stuff nearby that you wanted to spare - I speak from experience). A wetting agent does not help with plants that are protected by very fine hairs, you have to get these when they are young.

[loong]

I got a small bag of ammonium sulphate from my local merchant for 30 Baht.

Mixed a small amount with the water before adding the glyphosate and it dissolves really well, leaving no residue at all. So Ok for the sprayer.

It takes quite a long time to see the effects with glyphosate anyway, 10 to 14 days.

It has definitely improved the effectiveness with only mixing in a small amount, so I will be continuing with it.

[IsaanAussie]

Well you are all banned from the organic subforum for life!

After a "loong" battle with the weeds I decided to concede and think about using chemicals in select spots. This thread has supplied some valuable answers for me. Thanks guys.

[loong]

Well you are all banned from the organic subforum for life!

After a "loong" battle with the weeds I decided to concede and think about using chemicals in select spots. This thread has supplied some valuable answers for me. Thanks guys.

Ok, I will go stand in the corner and think about what a naughty boy I am for using cides

Unfortunately, it's just not economically viable to use local labour, handweeding, especially as they are absolutely useless and killed so many young cassava plants.

I really have no choice in the area that I am using glyphosate at the moment. It's the only way to have a chance to control the grasses. I would much rather use mulch in the battle against weeds, but the sheer volume required makes that impossible. Maybe in the future I will be able to grow more mulching material, but for this year, I can't see any other way but to use herbicides.

[IsaanAussie]

Excuse my light hearted poke on the 'cides. I can honestly say I have given it my best shot to stay away from using chemicals on our pig sty block. It is only 3 - 4 rai and as open grassed area with a decent length brush cutter blade, controllable. But start planting bananas and trees and growing live fences, now your have an obstacle course.

I can use just so much fermented plant extract EM and it does not take too much weed materials to fill a large rubbish bin to brew in. I have let things be and ended up with a jungle, then had to clear up a huge volume, again limits on how much compost windrow you want.

With the growth rates here I would defy the staunchest "organic farmer" to not be tempted to break out the "bottle". My main activity is the pigs and I dont have the time to be enslaved to the garden. I am still looking for that middle of the road solution.

[humblefalang]

I got a small bag of ammonium sulphate from my local merchant for 30 Baht.

Mixed a small amount with the water before adding the glyphosate and it dissolves really well, leaving no residue at all. So Ok for the sprayer.

It takes quite a long time to see the effects with glyphosate anyway, 10 to 14 days.

It has definitely improved the effectiveness with only mixing in a small amount, so I will be continuing with it.

What is the thay name for ammonium sulphate?

[loong]

I got a small bag of ammonium sulphate from my local merchant for 30 Baht.

Mixed a small amount with the water before adding the glyphosate and it dissolves really well, leaving no residue at all. So Ok for the sprayer.

It takes quite a long time to see the effects with glyphosate anyway, 10 to 14 days.

It has definitely improved the effectiveness with only mixing in a small amount, so I will be continuing with it.

What is the thay name for ammonium sulphate?

Errr... Ammonium sulphate

They should understand what you mean, but if they don't, ask for 21-00-00. It's a white crystal.