Only Rubber Bullets Used On Fatal Day: Thai Army Marksmen

[GentlemanJim]

I was in soi ngam duplee on that day (May 15th). I went there because I lived quite close, and was able to park my car in the Ibis hotel car park on the corner, and I can say without doubt that those bullets were definitely not rubber. Attached is a photo I took looking up the road toward Rama IV, showing the black tire smoke, and a group of Reds behind the Kasikorn Bank on the corner, before they burned it down.

How can you say the bullets were definitely not rubber, please elaborate. And a group of reds burning down a bank = anarchy = deserve to be shot in any modern country. Anyway, back to the bullets how do you know they were not rubber? Your photo did not attach.

[Kalbo]

I was in soi ngam duplee on that day (May 15th). I went there because I lived quite close, and was able to park my car in the Ibis hotel car park on the corner, and I can say without doubt that those bullets were definitely not rubber. Attached is a photo I took looking up the road toward Rama IV, showing the black tire smoke, and a group of Reds behind the Kasikorn Bank on the corner, before they burned it down.

Here's the photo, didn't attach last time.

[OzMick]

Another newspaper has referred, for the second successive day, to MIB who were filmed shooting protesters. I assume that they were not using blank and/or rubber bullets (depending on version) as claimed by the RTA.

[GentlemanJim]

I was in soi ngam duplee on that day (May 15th). I went there because I lived quite close, and was able to park my car in the Ibis hotel car park on the corner, and I can say without doubt that those bullets were definitely not rubber. Attached is a photo I took looking up the road toward Rama IV, showing the black tire smoke, and a group of Reds behind the Kasikorn Bank on the corner, before they burned it down.

Here's the photo, didn't attach last time.

Thanks for the photo.

A question again. How do you know for definite that the bullets were not rubber?

[overherebc]

Should easy to prove or disprove...I havent been in the army in many years, but dont you need an special adapter to fire rubber bullets from an M-16 ? and if memory serves the "rubber" bullets fired are rubber coated steel balls, so not really "rubber bullets"

BTW "KireB" I am not a red coloured parrot by any stretch of the imagination, and in fact in this instance the army/Goverment at the time acted appropriately considering what was happening...ie civil unrest

Rubber bullets used by the British Army have a calibre of 37mm and are about 6 inches long. I believe the Americans use something more like a shotgun cartridge which has a number of rubber coated metal balls.

I would say that rubber "bullets" cannot be fired using a weapon with a rifled barrel for obvious reasons

Att is the British Army type.

[GentlemanJim]

Should easy to prove or disprove...I havent been in the army in many years, but dont you need an special adapter to fire rubber bullets from an M-16 ? and if memory serves the "rubber" bullets fired are rubber coated steel balls, so not really "rubber bullets"

BTW "KireB" I am not a red coloured parrot by any stretch of the imagination, and in fact in this instance the army/Goverment at the time acted appropriately considering what was happening...ie civil unrest

Rubber bullets used by the British Army have a calibre of 37mm and are about 6 inches long. I believe the Americans use something more like a shotgun cartridge which has a number of rubber coated metal balls.

I would say that rubber "bullets" cannot be fired using a weapon with a rifled barrel for obvious reasons

Att is the British Army type.

Correct about some of the British security rubber bullets, correct about some of the cartridge types, as regards the rest - fail,

[overherebc]

Should easy to prove or disprove...I havent been in the army in many years, but dont you need an special adapter to fire rubber bullets from an M-16 ? and if memory serves the "rubber" bullets fired are rubber coated steel balls, so not really "rubber bullets"

BTW "KireB" I am not a red coloured parrot by any stretch of the imagination, and in fact in this instance the army/Goverment at the time acted appropriately considering what was happening...ie civil unrest

Rubber bullets used by the British Army have a calibre of 37mm and are about 6 inches long. I believe the Americans use something more like a shotgun cartridge which has a number of rubber coated metal balls.

I would say that rubber "bullets" cannot be fired using a weapon with a rifled barrel for obvious reasons

Att is the British Army type.

Correct about some of the British security rubber bullets, correct about some of the cartridge types, as regards the rest - fail,

On the M16 the rubber bullets are projected from a fitting on the end of the barrel by firing a blank cartridge .They are close to a half inch diameter. The barrel is 556.

[GentlemanJim]

Should easy to prove or disprove...I havent been in the army in many years, but dont you need an special adapter to fire rubber bullets from an M-16 ? and if memory serves the "rubber" bullets fired are rubber coated steel balls, so not really "rubber bullets"

BTW "KireB" I am not a red coloured parrot by any stretch of the imagination, and in fact in this instance the army/Goverment at the time acted appropriately considering what was happening...ie civil unrest

Rubber bullets used by the British Army have a calibre of 37mm and are about 6 inches long. I believe the Americans use something more like a shotgun cartridge which has a number of rubber coated metal balls.

I would say that rubber "bullets" cannot be fired using a weapon with a rifled barrel for obvious reasons

Att is the British Army type.

Correct about some of the British security rubber bullets, correct about some of the cartridge types, as regards the rest - fail,

On the M16 the rubber bullets are projected from a fitting on the end of the barrel by firing a blank cartridge .They are close to a half inch diameter. The barrel is 556.

Correct. It is a slow process, reminds me a bit of firing a musket in the old days (not that I am that old! )

[sunshine51]

Wonder, to make a fair comparison, what sort of bullets the black-shirt snipers were using ?

Most likely 7.62x51mm boat tailed,175 gr. FMJ's...the M118.

[overherebc]

Should easy to prove or disprove...I havent been in the army in many years, but dont you need an special adapter to fire rubber bullets from an M-16 ? and if memory serves the "rubber" bullets fired are rubber coated steel balls, so not really "rubber bullets"

BTW "KireB" I am not a red coloured parrot by any stretch of the imagination, and in fact in this instance the army/Goverment at the time acted appropriately considering what was happening...ie civil unrest

Rubber bullets used by the British Army have a calibre of 37mm and are about 6 inches long. I believe the Americans use something more like a shotgun cartridge which has a number of rubber coated metal balls.

I would say that rubber "bullets" cannot be fired using a weapon with a rifled barrel for obvious reasons

Att is the British Army type.

Correct about some of the British security rubber bullets, correct about some of the cartridge types, as regards the rest - fail,

Re the rifling on the barrel, it would probably damage or strip the coating and what would really be the piont of putting spin on the round

Closest I've seen would be the SABOT round with the two break-off collars , but not really much use for crowd control.

[ianf]

Would any right thinking sane person believe anything printed in a red newspaper (propaganda sheet)?

[GentlemanJim]

Should easy to prove or disprove...I havent been in the army in many years, but dont you need an special adapter to fire rubber bullets from an M-16 ? and if memory serves the "rubber" bullets fired are rubber coated steel balls, so not really "rubber bullets"

BTW "KireB" I am not a red coloured parrot by any stretch of the imagination, and in fact in this instance the army/Goverment at the time acted appropriately considering what was happening...ie civil unrest

Rubber bullets used by the British Army have a calibre of 37mm and are about 6 inches long. I believe the Americans use something more like a shotgun cartridge which has a number of rubber coated metal balls.

I would say that rubber "bullets" cannot be fired using a weapon with a rifled barrel for obvious reasons

Att is the British Army type.

Correct about some of the British security rubber bullets, correct about some of the cartridge types, as regards the rest - fail,

Re the rifling on the barrel, it would probably damage or strip the coating and what would really be the piont of putting spin on the round

Closest I've seen would be the SABOT round with the two break-off collars , but not really much use for crowd control.

Thats why they have the donut adaptor.

[chrisinth]

Should easy to prove or disprove...I havent been in the army in many years, but dont you need an special adapter to fire rubber bullets from an M-16 ? and if memory serves the "rubber" bullets fired are rubber coated steel balls, so not really "rubber bullets"

BTW "KireB" I am not a red coloured parrot by any stretch of the imagination, and in fact in this instance the army/Goverment at the time acted appropriately considering what was happening...ie civil unrest

Rubber bullets used by the British Army have a calibre of 37mm and are about 6 inches long. I believe the Americans use something more like a shotgun cartridge which has a number of rubber coated metal balls.

I would say that rubber "bullets" cannot be fired using a weapon with a rifled barrel for obvious reasons

Att is the British Army type.

Correct on the British army's choice, 37mm round fired from a riot gun (elephant gun as they were known). The round would generally be fired into the ground in front of the target (to further dispel energy) and it would bounce into them. The British army/RUC changed from rubber to plastic bullets, I think somewhere in the late 80's.

It was found that a large torch battery fitted exactly into the bore of the riot gun, and would could be placed on top of the round so the round would be preceded by the battery. Allegedly, the round wasn't fired into the ground first in these cases, but directly at the target........

The M-16 has to be fitted with an attachment before it can fire non-lethal rounds; these are small steel balls coated with a rubber solution and have to be fired from at least 50 meters away to dispel enough energy to not penetrate the target's body. These are loaded individually and it is time consuming. Easy to spot a weapon with this attachment.

Note: the discription on the British weapon may be out-of-date, not sure what they use now.

[jcw]

Thats why they have the donut adaptor.

Maybe this thread should be moved to the gay and Lesbian Threads !!!

[birdpooguava]

By my recollection that was a rumor among Red Shirts, claiming the government was using foreign mercenaries.

From a cursory search

Thai media owned by the Red Shirt Movement also accused the Abhisit government of dressing up Khmer prisoners in military uniform and sent them to crackdown on the red shirt recently. How true are these rumours? Nobody knows.

Cambodian mercenaries were manning army positions protesters told me at Bon Kai and Din Daeng during the afternoon on 18 May.

[carra]

By my recollection that was a rumor among Red Shirts, claiming the government was using foreign mercenaries.

From a cursory search

Thai media owned by the Red Shirt Movement also accused the Abhisit government of dressing up Khmer prisoners in military uniform and sent them to crackdown on the red shirt recently. How true are these rumours? Nobody knows.

Cambodian mercenaries were manning army positions protesters told me at Bon Kai and Din Daeng during the afternoon on 18 May.

that's cool, I didn't say which side of the fence the posters sat on

[khunken]

Yes, it's unfortunate that the sergeants' testimony doesn't fit with the red shirt propaganda repeated ad nauseum on various threads, including this one.

It's soooo telling that the two were allowed smoking & toilet breaks when they could conspire with outsiders! Pathetic.

[overherebc]

Should easy to prove or disprove...I havent been in the army in many years, but dont you need an special adapter to fire rubber bullets from an M-16 ? and if memory serves the "rubber" bullets fired are rubber coated steel balls, so not really "rubber bullets"

BTW "KireB" I am not a red coloured parrot by any stretch of the imagination, and in fact in this instance the army/Goverment at the time acted appropriately considering what was happening...ie civil unrest

Rubber bullets used by the British Army have a calibre of 37mm and are about 6 inches long. I believe the Americans use something more like a shotgun cartridge which has a number of rubber coated metal balls.

I would say that rubber "bullets" cannot be fired using a weapon with a rifled barrel for obvious reasons

Att is the British Army type.

Correct on the British army's choice, 37mm round fired from a riot gun (elephant gun as they were known). The round would generally be fired into the ground in front of the target (to further dispel energy) and it would bounce into them. The British army/RUC changed from rubber to plastic bullets, I think somewhere in the late 80's.

It was found that a large torch battery fitted exactly into the bore of the riot gun, and would could be placed on top of the round so the round would be preceded by the battery. Allegedly, the round wasn't fired into the ground first in these cases, but directly at the target........

The M-16 has to be fitted with an attachment before it can fire non-lethal rounds; these are small steel balls coated with a rubber solution and have to be fired from at least 50 meters away to dispel enough energy to not penetrate the target's body. These are loaded individually and it is time consuming. Easy to spot a weapon with this attachment.

Note: the discription on the British weapon may be out-of-date, not sure what they use now.

Or the layman can confuse it as an M16 with a silencer if they know nothing about firearms. As far as I'm aware the M16 is impossible to silence, you can hide the muzzle flash but not the noise.

Re the rubber bullets

The originals used the rear action of a very pistol with a barrel conversion about 15 inches long ,from memory.

The hard plastic rounds were, as far as I know, never used as they were really lethal and would actually break bones on impact. Fire one at a concrete wall at about thiry yards and then duck because there is a good chance it's coming straight back at you.The black rubber baton rounds had an impact similar to a fast cricket ball hit, still not pleasant.

Did hear they were popular in Londonderry with some of the female population in the 70's

[rubl]

Why declare it a live fire zone if they are not using live ammunition? Or was the live fire zone declared after 10th?

The 'live fire zone' was declared late 14th or early 15th of May. The zone covered part of Din Daeng which is not really anywhere near to Soi Ngam Dupli where the two snipers were stationed.

[jayjayjayjay]

What is confusing about this story is that another English language paper in Bangkok is reporting the same story with the same individuals, but saying that the snipers only fired blanks. No mention is made of rubber bullets.

The same blanks that killed Seh Dang I guess.... Amazing Thailand, in every way!!! :-)

[hungryhippo]

I love how everyone seems to have forgotten how the red shirts fired a grenade launcher at the BTS, attempted to throw tires on the BTS tracks in a seperate incident, bombed and killed anti-protestors (colored shirts) at silom and burned down central world.

I really don't care what happened to these thugs that decided to stay in an area that was declared a live fire area after 6 days of constant warnings with their own guns. I'm really getting tired of the innocent card they keep playing over and over again. Fact is they played with fire and got burned, next time they protest they should do it without rioting like a band of criminals, destroying property, killing people and making people lose their jobs.

[jcw]

Rubber Bullets or Blanks, same same to Thai / Indian Jurnos ...........

[jerrysteve]

I never met a sniper in Vietnam that fired rubber bullets? The other gentleman is right, rubber bullets are fired from a shotguns cos they are far more efficent for scatter a large and or wide crowd.

No police sniper in the U.S. fires rubber bullets, they on shoot to kill; and they are good at it.

[phiphidon]

Those rubber bullets make a hell of a mess of a man's head.

For those interested.

The M16 can/does fire rubber bullets. it is a slowish laborious process. The ammunition must be fired from at least 50 M to ensure the projectile is non lethal. At close range, the round is small, heavy and has high energy and could easily penetrate the body. Further than 50M it is designed to inflict non lethal pain. These rounds are nothing like the large bore baton rounds in common use with UK security services. It used to be recommended to fire the rounds on the ground in front of the target, thereby ridding the round of more energy and hitting the target via ricochet, however this often causes problems as it is unpredictable where the round will hit a target (eyes/head etc).

For those who think that blank rounds do not cause any recoil on a military rifle, you are wrong.

The reds wanted an inquiry, they now have one. As soon as any evidence is given in court that does not suit their purpose they cry foul...pathetic!

Would you like to comment on whether the gentleman seen firing from 0'51''in the attached clip is firing rubber bullets in a slowish laborious process - for indeed it is the very same chap being investigated and shown in the OP photograph in the white shirt on the left.

By the way there is evidence, and then there is just plain outright lying. I think you can tell the difference in this case, surely?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVmlkt6adtw

[philw]

During the questioning from 10.30am to 5pm, the two men took several breaks to visit the toilet and to smoke.

why is this tidbit significant enough to make it into the article?

They are being given the opportunity to collect their thoughts, recheck their stories and agree on what they are going to say next.

As instructed.

Nobody really wants the confrontation that examining these participants could lead to.

[Theoutsider]

Of course they will say that.

[philw]

I love how everyone seems to have forgotten how the red shirts fired a grenade launcher at the BTS, attempted to throw tires on the BTS tracks in a seperate incident, bombed and killed anti-protestors (colored shirts) at silom and burned down central world.

I really don't care what happened to these thugs that decided to stay in an area that was declared a live fire area after 6 days of constant warnings with their own guns. I'm really getting tired of the innocent card they keep playing over and over again. Fact is they played with fire and got burned, next time they protest they should do it without rioting like a band of criminals, destroying property, killing people and making people lose their jobs.

I was going to "like" this until I thought, " how do you fire a grenade launcher at the BTS" ??

I suppose give him his salary and tell him get off the station and get another job............

Who did burn down Central / Zen ??

Amazing no arrests yet, just think of all them cameras.

My local Caltex petrol station has at least 14 ( I stopped counting at that point ) targeting pumps, staff, tills, the air pump etc etc.....

Why is there so little evidence about who was in those buildings??

Next time you walk around a mall, count the cameras.

[tlansford]

I love how everyone seems to have forgotten how the red shirts fired a grenade launcher at the BTS, attempted to throw tires on the BTS tracks in a seperate incident, bombed and killed anti-protestors (colored shirts) at silom and burned down central world.

I really don't care what happened to these thugs that decided to stay in an area that was declared a live fire area after 6 days of constant warnings with their own guns. I'm really getting tired of the innocent card they keep playing over and over again. Fact is they played with fire and got burned, next time they protest they should do it without rioting like a band of criminals, destroying property, killing people and making people lose their jobs.

I was going to "like" this until I thought, " how do you fire a grenade launcher at the BTS" ??

I suppose give him his salary and tell him get off the station and get another job............

Who did burn down Central / Zen ??

Amazing no arrests yet, just think of all them cameras.

My local Caltex petrol station has at least 14 ( I stopped counting at that point ) targeting pumps, staff, tills, the air pump etc etc.....

Why is there so little evidence about who was in those buildings??

Next time you walk around a mall, count the cameras.

I hope they follow proper labor laws when firing grenade launchers at the BTS

Central World - if there was a proper investigation, it seems to have not been made public. Maybe one was just never done. Someone who's job it is to know a bit about this event makes that point and also the point that a building like Central World is pretty hard to burn down - ie: simpletons like you and me and the redmob probably would not be able to manage it ...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/484176-chaos-at-bangkoks-zen-after-red-shirt-surrender-court-hears/page__view__findpost__p__4574177

[OzMick]

I love how everyone seems to have forgotten how the red shirts fired a grenade launcher at the BTS, attempted to throw tires on the BTS tracks in a seperate incident, bombed and killed anti-protestors (colored shirts) at silom and burned down central world.

I really don't care what happened to these thugs that decided to stay in an area that was declared a live fire area after 6 days of constant warnings with their own guns. I'm really getting tired of the innocent card they keep playing over and over again. Fact is they played with fire and got burned, next time they protest they should do it without rioting like a band of criminals, destroying property, killing people and making people lose their jobs.

I was going to "like" this until I thought, " how do you fire a grenade launcher at the BTS" ??

I suppose give him his salary and tell him get off the station and get another job............

Who did burn down Central / Zen ??

Amazing no arrests yet, just think of all them cameras.

My local Caltex petrol station has at least 14 ( I stopped counting at that point ) targeting pumps, staff, tills, the air pump etc etc.....

Why is there so little evidence about who was in those buildings??

Next time you walk around a mall, count the cameras.

I hope they follow proper labor laws when firing grenade launchers at the BTS

Central World - if there was a proper investigation, it seems to have not been made public. Maybe one was just never done. Someone who's job it is to know a bit about this event makes that point and also the point that a building like Central World is pretty hard to burn down - ie: simpletons like you and me and the redmob probably would not be able to manage it ...

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4574177

But simpletons like you and the redmob managed it, as they threatened to do for weeks beforehand.

[KireB]

I was going to "like" this until I thought, " how do you fire a grenade launcher at the BTS" ??

I suppose give him his salary and tell him get off the station and get another job............

Who did burn down Central / Zen ??

Amazing no arrests yet, just think of all them cameras.

My local Caltex petrol station has at least 14 ( I stopped counting at that point ) targeting pumps, staff, tills, the air pump etc etc.....

Why is there so little evidence about who was in those buildings??

Next time you walk around a mall, count the cameras.

Same logic applies to killing a lot of people in 2010. Where is your proof that soldiers killed innocent demonstrators, with all these international camera crews around no one captured a soldier actually shooting a person. You are just guessing on who did what, or following an agenda.