For A Farang Pronouncing The R Or Not

[Tchooptip]

We all know Thai people often do not prononce the R, replacing it by L, rian (study) will sound like lian, manfarang (potato) manfalang and so on! When the r is part of a consonant cluster it is often simply dropped, krap most often sound kap.

I hope some will not find my question a bit stupid, so as a farang (or falang LOL) am I supposed to prononce the r correctly krap instead of kap for instance ? It would be logical since "I am able" to prononce it, plus I have heard from time to time Thai people pronouncing the r properly (educated people I don't know?)

Or do I follow the mainstream like most around us?

Since I (re) start learning Thai with writing and reading this time I would like not to take/keep bad habits in the same time I prefer to be... discreet/natural, look spontaneous whatever ( sorry, hard for me to find the right word sometimes for I am not a native English speaker)

Maybe oldtimers have an opinion anyhow thanks for answering

[bytebuster]

I'm a native speaker of several Slavic languages, and we have hard [R]. Therefore, it's not difficult for me to speak a hard [R] in any phonetic combinations.

I have noticed that when I'm using it (e.g. [khrap]), people consider it very polite.

Also, distinguishing [R] and [L] may help get rid of the ambiguity. Consider ใคร versus ไกล.

So my vote: use it if it doesn't bother you.

[Tywais]

Since I learned Central (Bangkok) Thai where pronunciations are more text book I usually will pronounce the r's. But being in Chiang Mai, I occasionally am half way between l and r.

[SantiSuk]

Since I learned Central (Bangkok) Thai where pronunciations are more text book I usually will pronounce the r's. But being in Chiang Mai, I occasionally am half way between l and r.

In Isaan I, and most falangs I observe speaking Thai, use the l, since that is the universal pronunciation in the north east. Actually khrap is one of the few words where I often can detect the 'r' in Isaan.

Sometimes Isaan speakers will roll the r in an exagerrated way for dramatic effect ('r-r-rong r-r-rian') and even with a half silent d in front ('dr-r-rong dr-r-rian') but I've never figured out the appropriate circumstances!

[TommoPhysicist]

You have confused two different things.

1) Silent R in clusters is according to the official Thai pronunciation rules, No R in jing, No R in Kap, etc.

Some people don't understand their own language rules due to low educational levels.

2) R replaced by L, due to regional pronunciation variations, usually by those from a low social status.

If you don't want to be seen as an ignorant peasant (or a guy that hangs out with hookers) do 1), don't do 2)

Edited September 1, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Peppy]

Sorry Tommo, but the only confusion is in your post.

1) The OP isn't talking about the rare silent ร, found in words like จริง or สามารถ, he's talking about consonant clusters with ร, like กร, คร, ปร, etc. The ร here is not silent, and you will find no rule anywhere stating that it is. It's just that some speakers don't pronounce it. Kind of like how some English speakers say eatin' or runnin', or gonna or wanna or shoulda. It isn't the commonly accepted "standard pronunciation", but it's how a lot of people talk.

2) While some people consider it more correct to "roll" their ร, most people in fact find it pretentious, and nobody will think you're "low status" just because you replace ร with ล.

[Tchooptip]

I'm a native speaker of several Slavic languages, and we have hard [R]. Therefore, it's not difficult for me to speak a hard [R] in any phonetic combinations.

I have noticed that when I'm using it (e.g. [khrap]), people consider it very polite.

Also, distinguishing [R] and [L] may help get rid of the ambiguity. Consider ใคร versus ไกล.

So my vote: use it if it doesn't bother you.

Yes of course "when" pronouncing R they are often rolled like the Scottish

[DavidHouston]

Interesting: is the "ร" sound in Thai really similar to the Scottish "rhotic consonant"?

[bkkmick]

The only people I hear say 'krap' seem to be security guards. Very polite pronunciation.

[Richard W]

... consonant clusters with ร, like กร, คร, ปร, etc. The ร here is not silent, and you will find no rule anywhere stating that it is.

Just a quibble, but about thirty years ago I found its omission given in an academic paper as a variable rule, along the lines of 'When excited, e.g. when talking about food, omit /r/ and /l/ in clusters.'

[kriswillems]

I've always tried to pronounce ร as R. But after a while, because everyone around me uses an L, I also started using the L sound in many words.

I don't think a farang looks pretentious when he was a correct pronunciation.

There was a time when my pronunciation was better than today, because I had a teacher really pushing me to pronounce everything 100% correct. When I talked to people I got only positive feedback. A good pronunciation (as a farang) makes you look smart but not pretentious. Also, a good pronunciation will improve your writing: I can't even count the times I heard Thai people asking each other "do you write this with ล or ร".

Of course you shouldn't exaggerate with being perfect. I ever had a teacher that used หล่อน for "she" in stead of "เขา". That teacher insisted it was a much more correct word, which does not lead to confusion and she might be right. It's only, nobody uses it and it makes you look like you look too many old Thai soaps (where the word is used often).

[Tchooptip]

Sorry Tommo, but the only confusion is in your post.

1) The OP isn't talking about the rare silent ร, found in words like จริง or สามารถ, he's talking about consonant clusters with ร, like กร, คร, ปร, etc. The ร here is not silent, and you will find no rule anywhere stating that it is. It's just that some speakers don't pronounce it. Kind of like how some English speakers say eatin' or runnin', or gonna or wanna or shoulda. It isn't the commonly accepted "standard pronunciation", but it's how a lot of people talk.

2) While some people consider it more correct to "roll" their ร, most people in fact find it pretentious, and nobody will think you're "low status" just because you replace ร with ล.

Thanks Peppy, I do believe YOU are right, and als answered my question, if I pronounce the Rs maybe I will look a little pretentious (?) if not I will probably not be perceived as low status, for I have a few Apps on iPhone for learning Thai, with Thai native voices, some pronounce R as L in words like carrot in Thai Which gives Calot, some do not on the contrary rolling the , I suppose voices chosen for teaching a language must not sound too much "low status"

Thanks again evely body

[Peppy]

Just to clarify... with "pretentious", I was talking about rolling the R. Simply pronouncing it normally, as distinct from L, isn't really much of an issue either way.

[BuddhaMind]

If you don't want to be seen as an ignorant peasant (or a guy that hangs out with hookers) do 1), don't do 2)

My experience of people that "hang out with hookers" is they start to adopt the sounds those people might make. For instance, I was on a flight to the US and the man next to me was very outgoing and spoke to the stewardess' in some sort of high pitched Thai voice with lots of "ewwwwwwww's" and "ooooooooo's" and several other types of sounds to go along with his words. Kind of like sweet talk or what you might do in a bar flirting with girls I guess. It's hard to explain, as I can't really spell sounds, but I kind of immediately thought "gee, I think this guy hangs out in girl bars alot." It was rather funny too.

[Steve Cleary]

Lambdacism, over excessive use of L instead of R, or the mental 'disorder' to be unable to distinguish between the two sounds is an international one and certainly does not only affect native speakers from this part of the world. Lambdacism is found throughout people in many parts of the world, even a lot of Caucasians suffer from it. If you are able to pronounce the ร as in R, therefore, I would do so.

Lambda, coming from Greek, meaning L, is the name of the 11th letter in the Greek alphabet.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Steve Cleary

[Rsquared]

I asked my wife the same question years ago, and she said that basically the people in our village drop the "R" or replace it with "L" mainly through laziness.

She also said that it is similar to native english speakers (as mentioned before) being lazy with g'day, nothin', somethin'......ie dropping the "G", or whole groups of letters in some cases.

I would suggest pronounce the "R" and be consistent, because no matter how hard we try we will always sound different to a Thai's ear.

[TommoPhysicist]

I asked my wife the same question years ago, and she said that basically the people in our village drop the "R" or replace it with "L" mainly She also said that it is similar to native english speakers (as mentioned before) being lazy with g'day, nothin', somethin'......ie dropping the "G", or whole groups of letters in some cases.

I would argue that Australians are not native English speakers.

[Johpa]

You have confused two different things.

1) Silent R in clusters is according to the official Thai pronunciation rules, No R in jing, No R in Kap, etc.

Some people don't understand their own language rules due to low educational levels.

2) R replaced by L, due to regional pronunciation variations, usually by those from a low social status.

If you don't want to be seen as an ignorant peasant (or a guy that hangs out with hookers) do 1), don't do 2)

Few people anywhere on the planet bother to "understand" their own language rules nor even have any need for such understanding. That is one of the major marvels of language and the brain. And few people anywhere on the planet, apart from a few pedantic linguists, understand just how close /r/ and /l/ are phonetically. Both consonants are actually often referred to as "liquid" consonants. The variation you hear is based more upon regional variation rather than class status although there are those in some regions so desperate to associate with the region of wealth, Bangkok, that they will use the Bangkok variation and then look down upon those who use their regionally preferred native variation. Again this class discrimination is based upon an ignorance of linguistics combined with other more deep seated personal psychological needs well beyond my understanding.

By the way, the /r/ in khrap (sorry I can't type in Thai) is often pronounced, and more often articulated to some small extent although not voiced.

[Johpa]

I asked my wife the same question years ago, and she said that basically the people in our village drop the "R" or replace it with "L" mainly through laziness..

It has absolutely nothing to do with being lazy. No child has to work very hard, or be taught to learn either their mother tongue or their native tongue. In fact it all comes quite naturally, just like walking. They do have to be taught that one local dialect or one local language is considered to be "lower class" than another. But from a purely linguistic viewpoint there is no difference between one dialect and and another. As the old adage goes, a language is a dialect with an army behind it.

[Tiger7Moth]

I lived in Khon Kaen for a time and became friendly with a Thai guy who was a former teacher and a well educated person. He had told me his name was "Weela". After I had known him for a while, I asked him to spell his name and the l in Weela was ร. Subsequently, I just try to go with the flow and mimic the person I am talking with.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Tiger7Moth

[Richard W]

No child has to work very hard, or be taught to learn either their mother tongue or their native tongue.

It takes a long time to become proficient in one's native tongue. Teenagers are frequently still acquiring the finer points of grammar. Learning two languages is hard, and children of immigrants often content themselves with merely understanding the mother tongue of their parents.

It is quite possible for children to spontaneously lose contrasts that their parents make, e.g. /θ/ v. /f/ in British English. Presumable there is a sufficient critical mass of non-distinguishers that not making the distinction does not lead to significant communication difficulties. Establishing the difference is hard work if one does not acquire it early.

The sound [r] is typically one of the last sounds a child acquires, and some never succeed, whence Elmer Fudd's hunting wabbits.

Central Thai with /l/ for /r/ may be regarded as laziness somewhere along the line - the speaker has learnt the vocabulary (and possibly grammar) of Central Thai without learning its consonants. It's also a matter of conformance. My wife, a native Kam Mueang speaker, is perfectly capable of pronouncing /r/, but I've never noticed her use it in Central Thai. She was successfully taught to pronounce /r/ at school. On the other hand, she does use [tɕʰ] (or thereabouts) in Central Thai, and it appears she learnt to make this sound at school after initially pronouncing Central Thai /tɕʰ/ as .

[AbeSurd]

The teacher I had a few years made a good point about this issue of whether a foreigner should speak ror rua or lor lua.

Her point was that if you're learning to read and write Thai, and want to make the best progress you can, it's better for you - when speaking - to stick with the ror rua (R sound).

This is because the spelling of words and pronunciation of words will match each other better.

I'd just add to that: written and spoken Thai is confusing enough without adding this further ror rua / lor lua confusion!

But if you're only speaking Thai, I think it's probably best to go with the flow of how it's being spoken around you.

Edited September 11, 2012 by AbeSurd

[Tchooptip]

The teacher I had a few years made a good point about this issue of whether a foreigner should speak ror rua or lor lua.

Her point was that if you're learning to read and write Thai, and want to make the best progress you can, it's better for you - when speaking - to stick with the ror rua (R sound).

This is because the spelling of words and pronunciation of words will match each other better.

I'd just add to that: written and spoken Thai is confusing enough without adding this further ror rua / lor lua confusion!

But if you're only speaking Thai, I think it's probably best to go with the flow of how it's being spoken around you.

Yes I do learn Thai alphabet and it would be confusing if I should pronounce ror rua lo lua, (I like your example ) it would be difficult, the (talking) teachers on most softwares do mainly pronounce r of course Anyhow thanks for giving your opinion

[Albacore]

In addition to often replacing ร with ล, I've noticed that Thais will also omit the ล or ร sounds altogether at times. I've been confounded by relatively simple speech on a number of occasions when this has occurred. My girlfriend and her friends will often omit these consonants all together in the pronunciation of ใคร and ใกล้, and I always have to think an extra moment. I always use ร when it's present in a word (except for the times it's part of a silent exception), and have been questioned by Thais about why I always bother to use it. I do so because it's proper (I also choose to speak English in a way that's as proper and easy to understand as possible). My spoken Thai also tends to come out in the form of long and elaborate addresses, which is the result of me falling back upon useful phrases and structures that I've memorized. Upon my numerous inquiries as to why my girlfriend and her friends have chosen to speak in such a manner as to omit or change certain consonants, the answers have always been the same; "it's easier" or "we hate ror rua!" My girlfriend and her friends are all well educated, and most are young doctors, dentists, programmers, and researchers pursuing post-graduate degrees. Most are originally from Isaan, but others grew up in Bangkok or southern provinces. I think that Thai can be a very beautiful language, especially when spoken by women. However, my girlfriend and her peers prefer to speak it in a manner which is as simplified as possible, and, at least in my opinion, as grating and unattractive as possible. From what I've observed, if this manner of speech reflects upon social status, then it's perhaps because poor and uneducated people think it makes them sound sophisticated.

[bytebuster]

Upon my numerous inquiries as to why my girlfriend and her friends have chosen to speak in such a manner as to omit or change certain consonants, the answers have always been the same; "it's easier" or "we hate ror rua!"

This happened to many languages before.

If the Lord would show thee but this one thing, -- that to use "thee" and "thou" to a particular person is proper language, and Scripture language; and that to say "you," is improper, and arose from pride, and nourisheth pride, and so is of the world, and not of the Father; and thou should bow thy spirit to him in this one thing, thou little thinkest what a work it would make within thee, and how strongly the spirit of darkness would fight against thy subjection thereto.

-- Isaac Penington, 1670.

Edited September 15, 2012 by bytebuster

[Albacore]

Upon my numerous inquiries as to why my girlfriend and her friends have chosen to speak in such a manner as to omit or change certain consonants, the answers have always been the same; "it's easier" or "we hate ror rua!"

This happened to many languages before.

If the Lord would show thee but this one thing, -- that to use "thee" and "thou" to a particular person is proper language, and Scripture language; and that to say "you," is improper, and arose from pride, and nourisheth pride, and so is of the world, and not of the Father; and thou should bow thy spirit to him in this one thing, thou little thinkest what a work it would make within thee, and how strongly the spirit of darkness would fight against thy subjection thereto.

-- Isaac Penington, 1670.

Thank you for posting this interesting quote, which is undoubtably the speculations of a Quaker convert. However, wasn't the original "Scripture language" Koine Greek, which was considered by many to be the vernacular of peasants and thus improper?

[martin81]

I will recommend you as a foreigner to always speak thai as correctly as possible. I allways try to pronounce ro rua correct.

It seems to me it gives respect among thais to speak correctly thai especially when a foreigner does it.

Many thais do not speak like that and that also gives them problems when writing thai for instance on facebook.

Many thais are rather poor at spelling correctly and do often not know when to use R or L in a thai word and even incorrectly omit the letters some times.

[Dag Ekeberg]

This was a really funny thread, especially the “Hanging out with Hookers” theory.

Here’s the reason why the Thais in Isan don’t say R: They speak Lao, which has no R. Comprende?

Should you say R? Why don’t you do as many Thais. Pronounce correctly if you're in an official kind of setting; skip it if you're just hanging out.

The more common the word, the easier to skip the R. The most common word (for guys…) is Krap. Almost nobody pronounces the R in everyday talk.