Canadian Sisters Died In Thailand From Drinking Cocktail That Contained Insect Repellent

[moe666]

While in the Philippines in June nearly got in a fight with someidiots because I wouldn't drink with them. I told the guy sorry I do not drink with people I do not know or drink drinks from bottles that I have no clue where it came from. To get the guy to shut up I finally excepted the drink and dunmped it, did he get mad, you thru my drink away, I said no I thru my drink away as you gave it to me now **** off. Then latter his buddy got into the act I finally told him to **** off as well the wait staff knew me and calmed these idiots down.

You have to be carefull who you except drinks from especially if you are a good looking girl, you do not have a clue whats in the drink. Best wishes to the family of the 2 girls very sad.

[FOODLOVER]

There was a small article warning about the dangers of mushroom shakes in Thailand that would have crushed up mozzie coils added. The shakes that were/are popular amongst the 20 something set especially on the islands and full moon parties. I posted a link on the original thread. People jumped on me from great hieghts saying it was ridiculous and never happens in Thailand.

May i have your link please. Thanks.

I will have to go back and find it again, this is not my original link but he may help you on the path to further reading, I will repost my original when I locate it shortly

http://www.thebackpa...es/thailand/86/

I can see why they didn't believe you as this is so freaking unbelievable that someone would do this. Disgusting, really.

[Notstupid30]

Symptoms

For pyrethrins:

• Breathing difficulty
  
• Coughing
  
• Loss of alertness due to imbalance in oxygen level
  
• Tremors (if a large amount is swallowed)
  
• Seizures (if a large amount is swallowed)
  
• Upset stomach
  
• Vomiting
  

http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/002763.htm

ok but what quantity ingested is lethal in a female adult

A bucket cocktail for 200thb could do it maybe

A quick google shows that around 2gm's/kg is lethal to rats, so if use this as a base number, both girls, if one assumes a 50kg body weight had to comsume 100gms each....that's a h*ll of a lot of DEET in a drink, even in a bucket

three led to death. In these cases, the amount ingested was 15-50 mL of 47.5% to 95% DEET in bottles.

From 1961 to 2002, eight deaths were reported related to DEET exposure. Three of these deaths resulted from deliberate ingestion of DEET (Tenenbein 1987) (see above). Two deaths were reported in adults following dermal exposure to DEET (Bell et al. 2002). The remaining three cases were all female children, with ages of 17 months, 5 years, and 6 years (Zadikoff 1979; Osimitz and Murphy 1997). All three children had been described as having "heavy, "frequent" or "nightly" applications of DEET. The 6-year-old had congenital ornithine carbamoyl transferase (OCT) deficiency, a potential lethal hyperammonemic condition, which may have contributed to her death. DEET did not inhibit human OCT in vitro (Rej et al. 1990)

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/consultations/deet/health-effects.html

[moe666]

I've seen people do some pretty strange things to get high, but drinking DEET was not one of them. That crap in banned in the US because it is so toxic. The girls probably never knew what they were drinking. So sad.

I was just reading how it is one of the most widely approved insect repellent in the USA, and even for kids as small as 3months. It is decidedly untoxic if used properly

http://en.m.wikipedi.../DEET#section_1

There is an epa pdf file that classified it as slightly and no where can I do find a description of symptoms for ingestion. As far as I remember it has an unbelievably bitter taste.

You got to it before me no DEET isn't banned in the US. Not toxic if applied correctly how many people really read the labels. I use the natural stuff, you just have to apply more often. Basil leaves rubbed on the skin are suppose to be a good repellant as well.

[Thai at Heart]

The report says they had DEET in their body. That doesn't mean the DEET came from a drink, that is them theorizing, and conveniently that explanation absolves anyone of blame. If their guesthouse room been sprayed with toxic chemicals and they contained DEET then it would also be in their bodies. I would think if people were regularly pouring DEET in to drinks, and it were capable of doing what happeend to these two girls, that people would be dropping dead left and right

if they were doing it in hotel rooms people would be dropping dead too.....seems that one needs to figure which is the most effective way of ingestion......I'd go for oral.

what puzzles me is why no-one helped them or why they didn't ask for help.....

Toxicity through normal use is very low, and and to have, 2 people is very odd. Must be food or drink, and and in a pretty big dose.

[ManInSurat]

Could it also be possible that they suffered a violent or allergic reaction to DEET?

That they were killed by an amount that would not have been lethal to Thais and the amounts they put in their sadistic cocktails

They were sisters after all.

Edited September 1, 2012 by ManInSurat

[Thai at Heart]

I've seen people do some pretty strange things to get high, but drinking DEET was not one of them. That crap in banned in the US because it is so toxic. The girls probably never knew what they were drinking. So sad.

I was just reading how it is one of the most widely approved insect repellent in the USA, and even for kids as small as 3months. It is decidedly untoxic if used properly

http://en.m.wikipedi.../DEET#section_1

There is an epa pdf file that classified it as slightly and no where can I do find a description of symptoms for ingestion. As far as I remember it has an unbelievably bitter taste.

You got to it before me no DEET isn't banned in the US. Not toxic if applied correctly how many people really read the labels. I use the natural stuff, you just have to apply more often. Basil leaves rubbed on the skin are suppose to be a good repellant as well.

Used to use it for aphids in agriculture. Too expensive.

[Nisa]

Symptoms

For pyrethrins:

• Breathing difficulty
  
• Coughing
  
• Loss of alertness due to imbalance in oxygen level
  
• Tremors (if a large amount is swallowed)
  
• Seizures (if a large amount is swallowed)
  
• Upset stomach
  
• Vomiting
  

http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/002763.htm

ok but what quantity ingested is lethal in a female adult

A bucket cocktail for 200thb could do it maybe

A quick google shows that around 2gm's/kg is lethal to rats, so if use this as a base number, both girls, if one assumes a 50kg body weight had to comsume 100gms each....that's a h*ll of a lot of DEET in a drink, even in a bucket

Unless you know the volume by weight of DEET, I am not sure how you can say it is a lot. A pound of lead is going to be significantly less in size than a pound aluminum.

Then you have to take into effect the other drugs and alcohol in their systems too.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/deet.htm

Main risks are: CNS depression, generalized seizures,hypertonia with opisthotonic spells and hypotension. Symptomsare more severe if ingestion is associated with alcohol orsedative drugs.

If the median lethal dose in rats (2 g/kg) is applicable to humans, 50 ml of 100% DEET may is potentially lethal for an 8-year-old child.

DEET-induced CNSdepression may be potentiated by ethyl alcohol or psychotropicdrugs

Edited September 1, 2012 by Nisa

[phuturatica]

Wow this is a really tragic story. If anyone is actually responsible for this, I hope they are locked away. Too young to die.

[meatboy]

how many more deaths have there been and covered up,seems a bit of coincidence that 2 main supermarkets seem to have emptied their shelves of soffell insect repellent and that was 2weeks ago[contains deet]

[maidu]

Lots of good posts here. Many things that the police are seemingly not thinking about (or don't want to think about), as they would rather the whole mess be swept under the carpet. Thais can forget about this and attribute it to karma, whereas farang are more concerned, particularly with seeing if there is culpability, and if so, wanting to see criminal charges.

Two otherwise healthy young women suffering painful deaths on the same night. It would be interesting to see what connections there were to the other two young farang women who died on Phi Phi island months earlier. There were several similarities factors, though the forensics for that came up 'inconclusive.'

what puzzles me is why no-one helped them or why they didn't ask for help.....

It appears one or two farang men tried to help them (walked them back to their g.h, at least). Are Thai authorities pursuing those guys? Probably as diligently as they're pursuing the Iranians who bombed Bangkok. In other words: NO.

Phi Phi appears to have one or more locals who are fixing these so-called cocktails. What are Thai authorities doing about it? It seems Lady Gaga draping a 3-color cloth on the back of a motorbike is much more important to Thais. They don't have time or concern for petty issues like lethal drinks being served at a tourist island.

[IMA_FARANG]

Look I'm NOT saying that this is the case.....but consider the possibility.

Here we have two relatively young girls out on their first big-adventure thrill trip away from home.

They hear about this "new-thing"....totally harmless of course....thrill you can get from drinking this mixture of chemicals from some people they meet on the beach or at a bar.

So they decide to give it a try.

Remember....their hotel room doors were locked from the inside.

They were reportedly novices at this kind of thing....no expeience with any kinds of drugs.

I imagine that drinking anything with DEET in it must have tasted like crap,,,,but maybe they forced it down.

And just how much of such a cocktail from hell is the critical level?

Easy to misjudge...even if you knew what level became dangerous.

Footnote: DEET used to be used to spray areas we lived in for mosquitos and bugs in our "hooch" housing when I was in the U.S. Army in Vietnam.

And if you're allergic or have a lower tolerance...it can make you feel sick...even at reltively low levels.

I normally left the hooch for a while when they sprayed....it gave me headaches.

Why anyone would deliberately drink it in some kind of mixture....that would be a very sutpid thing to do.

Edited September 1, 2012 by IMA_FARANG

[submaniac]

^^

There's also the possibility that someone spiked their drinks without their knowledge to rob them or worst. There was a news article on a man who robbed truck drivers by spiking their coffee. He was trying to get them unconscious to rob, but ended up killing them.

[ManInSurat]

Look I'm NOT saying that this is the case.....but consider the possibility.

Here we have two relatively young girls out on their first big-adventure thrill trip away from home.

They hear about this "new-thing"....totally harmless of course....thrill you can get from drinking this mixture of chemicals from some people they meet on the beach or at a bar.

So they decide to give it a try.

Remember....their hotel room doors were locked from the inside.

They were reportedly novices at this kind of thing....no expeience with any kinds of drugs.

I imagine that drinking anything with DEET in it must have tasted like crap,,,,but maybe they forced it down.

And just how much of such a cocktail from hell is the critical level?

Easy to misjudge...even if you knew what level became dangerous.

I think you're jumping to an unfair conclusion that could tar these sisters with the wrong brush.

Could it be possible? Well yes. Anything is possible. Do I think it's likely? No.

I find it hard to believe you'd willingly drink an insecticide or willingly drink a cocktail that has a mix of chemicals in you're not familiar with.

Taking drugs recreationally is one thing. Taking insecticide or insect repellant in a cocktail knowingly, is a whole other ballgame.

"It is thought that an overdose of DEET was accidentally mixed into the young women's drinks." From the main article.

Sadly the ladies cannot tell us themselves.

[BookMan]

It is a very sad story this one and I feel sorry for the girls family who lost two daughters and the girls themselves. It is more than possible if they did drink a cocktail containing DEET, that whoever mixed it inadvertently added too much, or intentionally added too much.

Too late for these girls, but the practise should be banned immediately on the islands. Easier said than done of course.

Edited September 1, 2012 by BookMan

[jackr]

I stick to bottel beer but even that here in Thailand can get spiked with sleeping pills

Happened to me a couple times over the years. It's easy for them to bang the tops back on (b**tards!). Only surefire way is to drink tins (though very few places have them), or avoid going out, or indeed avoid Thailand altogether.

[ManInSurat]

^^

There's also the possibility that someone spiked their drinks without their knowledge to rob them or worst. There was a news article on a man who robbed truck drivers by spiking their coffee. He was trying to get them unconscious to rob, but ended up killing them.

DEET is not used a mechanism for date-rape or as a mechanism for robbery.

If they were talking about Rohypnol here, or GBL or GHB, your statement would be applicable.

Edited September 1, 2012 by ManInSurat

[chooka]

^^

There's also the possibility that someone spiked their drinks without their knowledge to rob them or worst. There was a news article on a man who robbed truck drivers by spiking their coffee. He was trying to get them unconscious to rob, but ended up killing them.

is this the story you are refering to or another one?

A man has been arrested on suspicion of killing at least four people by serving them pesticide-laced beverages, while plotting to steal their valuables and vehicles.

THE NATION April 18, 2012 1:00 am

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Man-held-in-poisoning-deaths-of-four-30180161.html

[submaniac]

^^

Yes that is the one. He used insectisides. He said that his plan wasn't to kill, but just incapacitate to rob. People will use whatever is at hand and "guestimate" the dosage. Rohypnol would be hard to find in Thailand.

Edited September 1, 2012 by submaniac

[KeyserSoze01]

I've seen people do some pretty strange things to get high, but drinking DEET was not one of them. That crap in banned in the US because it is so toxic. The girls probably never knew what they were drinking. So sad.

I was just reading how it is one of the most widely approved insect repellent in the USA, and even for kids as small as 3months. It is decidedly untoxic if used properly

http://en.m.wikipedi.../DEET#section_1

There is an epa pdf file that classified it as slightly and no where can I do find a description of symptoms for ingestion. As far as I remember it has an unbelievably bitter taste.

I stand corrected... Although it was banned for use on children in the US in 1998.

Here is an article that described the side effect in laboratory experiments..

http://www.environme...g03hazards.html

The Medical Sciences Bulletin, published by Pharmaceutical Information Associates Ltd. reports, "Up to 56% of DEET applied topically penetrates intact human skin and 17% is absorbed into the bloodstream." Blood concentrations of about 3 mg per litre have been reported several hours after DEET repellent was applied to skin in theprescribed fashion. DEET is also absorbed by the gut.

Given the statement above, the girls could have just as easily applied insect repellent containing DEET before going out for the evening given the high absorption rate.

[ManInSurat]

^^

Yes that is the one. He used insectisides. He said that his plan wasn't to kill, but just incapacitate to rob. People will use whatever is at hand and "guestimate" the dosage. Rohypnol would be hard to find in Thailand.

I stand corrected and I retract my previous statement then. Thanks for making me aware of this.

Is this just an isolated incident or is this commonplace? Have there been previous incidents on Phi Phi? The article you linked was in Nakhon Pathom.

I could see how this could be a cause then, especially as you say, they'd have to "guestimate".

Someone mixing cocktails would probably know what a correct dosage is.

Interesting.

[OzMick]

Symptoms

For pyrethrins:

• Breathing difficulty
  
• Coughing
  
• Loss of alertness due to imbalance in oxygen level
  
• Tremors (if a large amount is swallowed)
  
• Seizures (if a large amount is swallowed)
  
• Upset stomach
  
• Vomiting
  

http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/002763.htm

Sounds like a fun night out, doesn't it. And I though Chang hangovers were bad.

[Nisa]

Two young women partying on a party island that is known for this and other drug consumption and people are speculating the most ridiculous of things and trying to find a way to blame Thailand or Thais even though they were out partying with two farang males all the way up until the time they went to their room where they later died. Strange indeed.

But interesting that this information came from Thai reports, before Canada experts have reached any conclusions, even though so many posters were sure there would be a cover up and Thai authorities would be too incompetent to figure out the cause of death.

I especially like those who want to hold this country to a level greater than that of first world nations by suggesting police are not doing their jobs because they don't go after a dealer for murder after somebody accidently overdoses. Also just as amusing is those who believe people taking illegal drugs ask for a run down of all the chemical ingredients used to make or process the drugs before deciding if to ingest them.

I would find it a bit more intelligent if people simply questioned the accuracy of this news reports since there has yet to be an official release of the information. But to simply make speculation about how they were not responsible for their own deaths because they are farangs seems a bit odd given the fact numerous westerner's OD and die from drug use on a daily basis all over the world.

Bottom line it is a sad story and regretfully young people sometimes die when partying even though partying and experimenting with this at this age is common and usually a fun time that provides great memories later in life.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Nisa

[mochafan]

so I guess the tales that some posted on the other page about mozzie repellents being put into drinks weren't to far off then. The worldly and wise branded them as loonies running around in tin foil hats with conspiricy theories. I guess there is something to be learnt here, next time before some attack others with insults, stop for a moment and consider the possibility they may actually be more intelligent than yourselves and not escapees from the loony farm. I am refering to minority, those that think they have thier doctorates in everything known to mankind.

Amen! you said it

[ManInSurat]

Two young women partying on a party island that is known for this and other drug consumption and people are speculating the most ridiculous of things and trying to find a way to blame Thailand or Thais even though they were out partying with two farang males all the way up until the time they went to their room where they later died. Strange indeed.

But interesting that this information came from Thai reports, before Canada experts have reached any conclusions, even though so many posters were sure there would be a cover up and Thai authorities would be too incompetent to figure out the cause of death.

I especially like those who want to hold this country to a level greater than that of first world nations by suggesting police are not doing their jobs because they don't go after a dealer for murder after somebody accidently overdoses. Also just as amusing is those who believe people taking illegal drugs ask for a run down of all the chemical ingredients used to make or process the drugs before deciding if to ingest them.

I would find it a bit more intelligent if people simply questioned the accuracy of this news reports since there has yet to be an official release of the information. But to simply make speculation about how they were not responsible for their own deaths because they are farangs seems a bit odd given the fact numerous westerner's OD and die from drug use on a daily basis all over the world.

Bottom line it is a sad story and regretfully young people sometimes die when partying even though partying and experimenting with this at this age is common and usually a fun time that provides great memories later in life.

Nisa you're making a load of accusations at these deceased ladies that are unfounded and untrue.

I love Thailand too, but your insistence on being the Thai apologist to end all Thai apologists wears extremely thin at times. This is one of those times.

People would not say or infer the Thai police are negligent if they weren't actually negligent. As a generalization they have a tendency to be negligent and corruptible.

There's enough incidents where better policing skills, be it through handling forensic evidence or dealing with a matter in a reasonable timeframe could have lead to arrests or shedding more light on a matter.

There's very much a culture of sweeping things under the carpet to protect the local tourist industry and there's many examples I could cite where I think this is the case.

You saying these girls died of an experimentation is inaccurate when you have no proof whatsoever to back this up.

Knowing the Thai policing system can be lax in the way it deals with its cases would lead me to question their assessment of what happened.

Not to mention there's been several incidents on Phi Phi alone where the police could have handled things much much more efficiently and been more forthcoming with the truth.

Thai Police never deal with the deaths of foreigners in unexplained or unusual circumstances in a transparent way.

If they did, people wouldn't question them. You can't get away from this.

Don't let your love of Thailand blind you to the truth.

Edited September 1, 2012 by ManInSurat

[maidu]

I imagine that drinking anything with DEET in it must have tasted like crap

I find it hard to believe you'd willingly drink an insecticide or willingly drink a cocktail that has a mix of chemicals in you're not familiar with. Taking drugs recreationally is one thing. Taking insecticide or insect repellant in a cocktail knowingly, is a whole other ballgame.

First off, I doubt any of us know what Deet tastes like. Some chemicals taste sweet. Plus, when doing drugs for kicks, taste is not a prime concern. Example: peyote tastes pretty awful.

It's looking (to me) likely that they drank the 'cocktail' either as a dare, or willingly or perhaps (though seemingly less likely) as a 'mickey' slipped to them without their knowing.

Someone or group had to be involved with that. What are authorities doing - to dig to the bottom of this lethal activity? Is it 'mai pen rai' - and let kids be kids and drink whatever they want at beach resorts?

interesting about the post mentioning absorption of deet from insecticide. Perhaps a contributing factor, but it would seem a whole heck of a lot of insecticide would have to be applied for that to be fatal from only skin application. Others would be affected also. Did we hear of any insecticide applicators in the girls' room? I didn't catch that.

Someone mentioned the girls were only hanging with farang men. We don't know that, not by a country mile.

[glegolo]

who the hell is writing these reports,police hunt for 2 portuguese who where drinking with the sisters,now they say it was 2 brazilians.

For your knowledge.. brazilians native language is portuguese, maybe easy to mix them up

if you know these things...

And so go from screaming about how bad and worthless Thailand and their policeforce is, we are now as usual back to basic again, and it turns out possibly, that these young unfortunate girls have tried the "good" life of Thailand with drugs and drinks.... and the fault is their own.

glegolo

Edited September 1, 2012 by glegolo

[laobali]

who the hell is writing these reports,police hunt for 2 portuguese who where drinking with the sisters,now they say it was 2 brazilians.

Portuguese is the first language of Brazil. Maybe they were simply overheard talking to each other and not officially identified..

[ManInSurat]

I imagine that drinking anything with DEET in it must have tasted like crap

I find it hard to believe you'd willingly drink an insecticide or willingly drink a cocktail that has a mix of chemicals in you're not familiar with. Taking drugs recreationally is one thing. Taking insecticide or insect repellant in a cocktail knowingly, is a whole other ballgame.

First off, I doubt any of us know what Deet tastes like. Some chemicals taste sweet. Plus, when doing drugs for kicks, taste is not a prime concern. Example: peyote tastes pretty awful.

It's looking (to me) likely that they drank the 'cocktail' either as a dare, or willingly or perhaps (though seemingly less likely) as a 'mickey' slipped to them without their knowing.

Someone or group had to be involved with that. What are authorities doing - to dig to the bottom of this lethal activity? Is it 'mai pen rai' - and let kids be kids and drink whatever they want at beach resorts?

interesting about the post mentioning absorption of deet from insecticide. Perhaps a contributing factor, but it would seem a whole heck of a lot of insecticide would have to be applied for that to be fatal from only skin application. Others would be affected also. Did we hear of any insecticide applicators in the girls' room? I didn't catch that.

Someone mentioned the girls were only hanging with farang men. We don't know that, not by a country mile.

"Someone mentioned the girls were only hanging with farang men. We don't know that, not be a country mile."

"It's looking (to me) likely that they drank the 'cocktail' either as a dare, or willingly or perhaps (though seemingly less likely) as a 'mickey' slipped to them without their knowing."

You can't know that. Not by a country mile.

[ManInSurat]

who the hell is writing these reports,police hunt for 2 portuguese who where drinking with the sisters,now they say it was 2 brazilians.

Portuguese is the first language of Brazil. Maybe they were simply overheard talking to each other and not officially identified..

They had a copy of the passport of one of the men that dropped them off at their hotel. If these are the men they're referring to, they were Portuguese and travelling together. It's highly likely they were both Portuguese.